The Eric Metaxas Show - Jonathan Horn

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

Historian Jonathan Horn discusses his fascinating and well-researched book, "Washington's End," which centers around the last days of the life and public service of America's first president.

Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. It's the show featuring Go Go Go Go The Chim. Nothing like a chimp till I'm in a radio show. Easy there, Go Go Go, go. No. No, gogo. No. Now your host, Eric Mataxis. Hey, folks, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. As you know, I consider myself a history buff.

In fact, I consider myself a buff in general. I don't even know what that is, but, you know, I define myself and I think myself as a buff. I'm also the world's foremost authority, generally speaking. I like to talk history, and we have today the author of a new book on someone whom I admire tremendously. I'm talking about George Washington. The book is called Washington's End. The author is Jonathan Horn. And here he is.

Jonathan, welcome to the program. Thanks so much for having you today. I know you're only on the program because you heard that I was a buff. I want to look up the etymology of the word buff because whenever somebody says history buff, it fascinates me. You're more than a buff. You've written a book. What is your background?

I know you went to Yale and I decided to have you on the program anyway. What did you do before you decided to turn your attentions and intellect to writing about Washington? Well, I was a speech writer before I started writing history books. I actually worked as a speech writer for President Bush. I was there for the final few years. years of his presidency. And so my book about George Washington is about the last years of his life.

And I got to see a president in real life actually leave office and to see that transition take place. And then I left speech writing, decided to go out and try to write some history books. Yeah. Well, I also write history books and I really am fascinated with history. It's a wonderful, a wonderful thing. I've written a little bit about George Washington in my Seven Men book. He was a hero.

I remember that I read a book. I know I have it here on my shelf someplace, a two-volume book written around the turn of the century in the 1890s. And it was so vivid. I'll have to remember before this program is over. But it talked about the last years of Washington. And I was really fascinated by his last year. So I was excited that you chose to write this book.

but what made you choose specifically to write about his last years? Well, as I said, I had worked as a speechwriter at the end of a presidency, and that got me interested in what happens when a president leaves office. My previous book was also a Robert E. Lee biography titled The Man Who Would Not Be Washington. So everyone made the joke that your next book needs to be about the man who was Washington. Or the man who would not be Robert Lee. Or the man who would not be a Robert Lee. or the man who would not be a robbery Lee.

Go figure who that could be. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. So when you say Washington's end, do you start with his final years in the presidency, or is it just after that? So the book opens on March 4, 1797, and that's one of those days in American history

when everyone knew they were witnessing history. It was the day when people witnessed something that had never happened in their lifetimes, power, peacefully transferring from one living head of state to another, from George Washington to John Adams. And it really is this incredible moment in history. I think we don't necessarily have full appreciation for what that meant. And for that reason, I want to hit pause here. And let's focus on this because you're quite right. It had skipped past me. I mean, I've thought about it previously, but just now to think that

you're right, the world was agog at this idea that a people would govern themselves. that they would elect someone, and then that someone would voluntarily step aside and allow someone else to replace him. We have to go back and understand what a huge deal this was. This was genuinely unprecedented, magnificent, and, you know, George III in England marveled at Washington. So we do have to focus on that.

So I'm glad that you do. Absolutely. And you're totally right. I think just to understand how revolution, this is, you have to look across the ocean to Europe. What was happening in there? Well, King Louis the 16th of France had recently lost power. And what had happened to him? Well, he had gone to the guillotine. And that's how things tended to work in Europe at that time. If a head of state lost power, he generally lost his head, literally. And so I think that gives some perspective

for so how incredible this was, a peaceful transfer of power. Yeah, I mean, it is magnificent. I don't know. When did we change inauguration day into late January? Because I've read a few times that this happened in March. Do you know? Maybe you don't know. It didn't happen until the 20th century that the inauguration date was switched. But this was a day that George Washington was eagerly looking forward to for a long time. In fact, he'd wanted to leave. the presidency after his first term in office. Right. But he had been convinced that the country would come apart if he left. And he immediately regrets the decision. He says he would rather be anywhere than be president of the United States.

And he would rather be riding around his farms. And by the time his second term ends, there really is no argument in the world that could have convinced George Washington to serve a third term. Well, it is interesting that he sets the precedent of two terms with. which only was broken, of course, by FDR. It never was in our Constitution or anything until FDR dared to serve a fourth term. Do you have any insight on why FDR thought it was okay to break that longstanding precedent? I'm not an FDR expert by any means.

I assume it's just the extraordinary period of time in which she was living. Now, of course, every president thinks he's living in an extraordinary times. And we all think we're living in an extraordinary times. It's a constant throughout American history. And that's actually one of the things that interest to me about this period is so many people thought they were living in the last days of the American Republic of the experiment would end. George Washington was leaving power. He was the person who had held this country together.

And, you know, we're going to become France and have anarchy in the French Revolution, or we're going to end up and have a monarchy. And it seems the only thing that Americans agree on this to this point is that their country is coming apart. Well, when you say the country is coming apart again, this is the kind of thing that we tend to forget. We forget the extraordinary fragility of this experiment in self-government. It was so extraordinary, so fragile that, you know, the people at the time knew it.

I wrote a book called If You Can Keep It. which, you know, comes from Franklin's term, he had a keen sense that what they had just done in Independence Hall in 1787 might not last. It might last for 10 years or 20 years or 40 years, but the idea that it could last, you know, for coming up on 250 years, I think they all knew that what they were doing was such a wild idea that they had no idea what would happen. But why do you say that at this time at the end of Washington's tenure, in the White House, that there was a keen sense that this might all be ending. Well, the country is really divided.

And so many, by the way, so many of the fears they had back then echo fears that you hear expressed today. They were worried about new forms of media. Back then, it was partisan newspapers, and they were worried about these newspapers spreading fake news. They were worried about the emergence of political parties. Back then, it was between federalists and Republicans, and they were worried the country come apart. They were even worried about foreign intervention in elections. We like to think we're so special today, but it happened in the very first competitive presidential election in American history in 1796. France had actually intervened on behalf of Jefferson. So in a sense,

it gives you a sense that so often we'll hear that we think our problems are so different from other problems. But the truth is, if we look to history, we find things that give us comfort because we realized we've been through great challenges before. But you're not suggesting that the FBI was corrupt in the late 18th century. Well, of course, as you know, there was no FBI. That's the only reason it wasn't corrupt. It was a lot smaller back then. Right, right.

I know. Gosh. Okay, so Washington, I mean, it is really funny to think, I find Washington funny in a way because he was so noble and so. humble that he really didn't enjoy the trappings of power. Actually, you know what? We're going to a break. I will attempt to finish that sentence on the other side. Folks, I'm talking to the author of a new book called Washington's End. We'll be right back. Hey, folks, I'm talking to Jonathan Horn. He's the author of a new book called Washington's End

about George Washington. And I was just saying, Jonathan, that it's just funny to think that Washington was so noble that he really wasn't fascinated. I don't get the idea with the trappings of power. He just wanted to go home. He had been, you know, the head of the continental army forever, never home. And then, you know, he gets dragooned into serving his country. You could just see him rolling his eyes like, okay, you know, I guess I have to do it. It's the noble thing to do.

I have no choice. But he was aching to get back home to Mount Vernon. And we don't see that kind of thinking so much anymore for many reasons. But he really was, he almost stands alone in his desire to leave office. That's true. I'm glad you said that because it really was genuine on the part of Washington. Now, of course, he also understood that his legacy as the American Cincinnati depended on surrendering power. And he was very interested in what we would think about him today.

And he knew that this was a great moment in history that he would be setting a precedent. At the same time, he really did miss his farm. He felt that agriculture and farming was his real pursuit. And he wanted to spend his last years riding around his farms, consumed in pastoral pleasures, being able to fix up his mansion house, which he had felt had gone into ruin. And he wanted to organize his papers because he knew that historians like yours truly were one day going to want to see those papers. Now, that was Washington's plan for his retirement. But it turned out to be very different, surrendering power,

it ended up being far more difficult than he ever imagined in a little bit more than a year later. He would find himself called out of retirement, put back in command of the United States armies, and drawn into very serious views with his immediate successor and future successors. Let me ask you, you mentioned Cincinnati. I know, sadly, that many people listening

don't know who Cincinnati was. I'm going to send you a copy of my book, if you can keep it, because I wrote a little bit about Cincinnati in there, not that you don't know. But since you referenced him, I want my audience to know who he was and why he and his story are so important to the American Republic, something that was not lost on Washington or the people of his day. I'm so happy that you have been writing about Cincinnati because he's a figure who's been forgotten today. But, During George Washington's time, everybody knew who Cincinnati was. He was a famous Roman who had lived thousands of years earlier,

and he had rid into the rescue of the Roman Republic during an emergency and assumed extraordinary powers and then surrendered those powers and returned to his farm afterwards. And when George Washington decided to leave the presidency, really the best precedent that he could draw upon at that time was the thousands of your old precedent that Cincinnati had sat. It's amazing to me, again, how the whole country, America was fascinated with classical Rome.

And we know, of course, that there were flickers of democracy and order in classical Rome, in classical Greece, nothing to compare with the experiment that we began here in America. But it is fascinating that everyone was aware of it, that there were these Cincinnati's societies, obviously Cincinnati is named after Cincinnati's. And he was a hero and he was a uniquely American hero, even though he's from Rome, that we all knew this is the model. This is the gentleman farmer who chooses voluntarily for no gain to serve his country and that it's for a limited time. The idea of career politicians was anathema to all of them and especially to Washington. And they said this is the noble citizen who goes to serve his country.

That idea has been lost largely. And today we have career politicians. I mean, when you think that Joe Biden has been a senator since I believe the presidency of Ulysses Grant, I think I'm getting that right. But it's kind of a weird thing that we have people that are in there for decades. And Washington was getting itchy to go home after four years. Right. Right, right. And then he's forced to serve four more years. He has to be basically forced to do it.

And by the time, it gets through two terms, as I said, there really is no argument in the world that could have convinced him to serve a third term. Well, you were saying, well, the idea is that, you know, you have FDR do this weird thing. I mean, you have, you know, a long, long time, well, 200 years of people serving no more than two terms. And then suddenly FDR breaks that open. and such that, you know, we have to have an amendment, I guess. But we have to remind ourselves, and this is why I think your book is so important, to remind ourselves of what self-democracy is and the people who put it together, who they understood that if we the people aren't the government,

and if we the people aren't the ones stepping up to lead, then we will be led by others who will govern us from above in the way that a tyrant or a dictator might, or a bureaucratic state. And so it's important that we learn this now. So finally, Washington, he gets home, but he doesn't have a lot of time to enjoy his life, does he? Right. He finds it actually, so he does try to get himself into a routine.

He rides around his farms in the morning. He has dinner at 3 o'clock every day. And, of course, his table was always filled with guests because everybody in the world wants to come to see the most famous American in the world. But at the same time, he's very anxious to get news from Philadelphia. And what does he want to find out? Well, he wants to know what's happening with some envoys that America has sent to France to try and negotiate a settlement to this problem of France-seating American ships at sea.

And it turns out that France won't receive America's envoys. And that's going to lead to a war buildup in 1798. And as part of that, something that's going to happen that George Washington never imagine. His successor, John Adams, is going to call George Washington out of retirement and nominate him to serve as commander-in-chief of the armies of the United States. I've literally never heard that. A year before Washington's death, Adams, the second president, tries to pull him back in. Right. And you know what? He nominates George Washington without even asking if George Washington has any preconditions that he'd like to set for accepting this command.

And it turns out that George Washington does have some conditions. He wants to be able to choose the general officers who will serve underneath him. And for second in command, he wants the star of everyone's favorite musical, Alexander Hamilton. And John Adams really does not want Alexander Hamilton. And that's going to lead to a very serious feud between the first former president and the second president of the United States. Well, let me ask you, just because I'm fascinated with my own ignorance on this subject in this period. we had obviously our greatest ally in France.

That is why we were able to win in 1783. What happened between 1783 and 1798? Well, you're so right. And first, a lot of Americans still felt that sense of debt to France. But something really important had happened in those intervening years, and that is the French Revolution. And Louis XVI, who was the king, who sent ships and soldiers to Americans. as a during the American Revolution had gone to the guillotine.

And France, by this time, had gone through the reign of terror. Thousands of people had been beheaded. There have been bloodlettings. And at this time, France is under the control of what's called the directory, which is basically a three-man executive team. It's basically dictatorial in its powers. Basically, they were Satan worshipping Maoists, except that those terms hadn't been invented yet.

I completely forgot that the France of Rochambeau, and Lafayette is long gone. So right, we're dealing with it with a tremendously different France, almost, you know, in some ways kind of a communist regime. Right. And so in France is seizing American ships at sea because they need money to supply, to fuel their wars that they're waging in Europe. And so it turns out, though, that they will not receive American envoys unless the American envoys pay a bride. And this becomes known as the XYZ affair. And as a result, America begins preparing for war against France in 1998. Okay, I really, I'm just, I'm fascinated that I didn't know anything about this. So, so what happens? I, I know we didn't go to war, uh, with France,

but how was that averted? Well, what happens eventually is, first of all, we do have some naval confrontations with France at sea, but there's never a full scale invasion of America, which is the reason that George Washington is called out of retirement. It's that fear. And Washington always thinks this is a bit of a long shot, this idea that France will actually invade America. He doesn't think France is capable of doing such a thing. But what ends up happening is, first, Washington and Adams have to resolve who's going to be second in command of the Army. It actually comes to the point that Washington threatens to resign if he doesn't get his way and get Alexander Hamilton. So John Adams has to ultimately give way. And he actually

And then Adams fears that Hamilton, this is very different from the musical depiction of Hamilton, but Adams sees Hamilton as a dangerous figure. He thinks he has more of a Caesar than a Cincinnati. And he fears that he's trying to have a military takeover to the country, and he's using George Washington to gain power. Holy cow. We're going to hit pause there. Folks, we're going to be right back.

I know you won't go away. You'd be crazy to go away. I'm talking to Jonathan Horn. The book is Washington's End. Stick around. Christian bestselling author and speaker Richard E. Simmons does not shy away from the big questions of life. His latest book is called Reflections on the Existence of God and it tackles the biggest question of all, does God exist? I've read this book and I got to tell you, I'm a little biased, but you can imagine that I like it a lot because Simmons offers insights for those grappling with life's biggest questions.

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Go to existence of Godbook.com. That's existence of Godbook.com. Well, my daddy left home when I was three and he didn't leave much. Tomorrow and me, just this old guitar and an empty bottle of boo. Now, I don't blame him because he's running head, but the meanest thing that he ever did was before he left, he went and named me Sue. Folks, welcome back. I am talking to a very young graduate of Yale University, at least he's young by my standards. He has written a book called Washington's End, and his name is Jonathan Horn. And Jonathan, you were just talking about a period of history with which I'm utterly ignorant.

You said that we averted war with France. And again, this is radical, crazy France of 1798. And you said that things were so fragile that John Adams, who was the second president, was afraid that Alexander Hamilton, who was a protege of Washington's, that he had to designs that were not the kind of designs that one ought to have in self-government, in a system of liberty as we had. Do you think that Adams was on to anything there and that Hamilton had disdain for what the Great Washington revered? I think Adams was exaggerating the danger somewhat. At the same time, Hamilton did have some strange ideas of what this army that he and

George Washington were putting together could be used for it. And he said that essentially Washington would be too old to take the field. So command would naturally fall to him for whatever endeavors he was planning to use the army for. But it never gets to this point. The army really remains mostly a paper army. And Adam sends new envoys to France who are able to negotiate a peace. And Hamilton's allies are very angry about this. And they actually start coming up with a plan to convince George Washington to come out of retirement and run for president in 1800. And of course, Washington doesn't want to hear anything about this idea. That's the last thing he wants to do.

And, of course, he doesn't even live to see the election of 1800, ultimately. When in 1799 did he die? He dies in December, 1799. In the end comes rather suddenly. He's thinking about the future. He's thinking about what he's going to do in the year 1800. and his, essentially, his throat swells up. His epiglottis swells.

He can't breathe. He's suffocating and choking to death very slowly. It was an agonizing death because his doctors are bleeding him because they think that's the best course of action back then. And he dies rather quickly. And today we would call it acute epiglottitis. But back then, they really didn't know what was happening. and the course they took was the best course available,

but it made no sense, of course, through the eyes of modern medicine. Yeah, wasn't he out riding on his property that morning? It was a couple days. Yeah, he'd be gone riding in the snow. And then he came back and he was wet and his personal secretary worried that he had allowed himself to catch cold and he was fine. But the next day he woke up and his throat hurt a little bit. And it got worse as the day went on. And by the time he went to bat, he was losing his voice.

And then he woke up in the middle of the night. And this is December 14th in the very early hours of December 14th. And he basically knew the end had come. Now, the end doesn't come until the end of the day on December 14th. And he handles his death with this kind of incredible stoicism. He knows the end has come. But he knows he's playing a part in history that people are going to look at how he handled his final hours. He's determined not to complain. He gives the doctors every chance to try their

cures because he knows they have a part to play in this drama too. And he's very aware of his place in history. I don't think we've ever had a president who was as aware of his place in history. I mean, it's an amazing thing when we think about it. I think I wrote about it a little bit. but the idea that he knew that as the first president, he was setting precedent after precedent, and he had to be careful what he did and said and how he did it because he wanted to get it just right so that those who followed in his footsteps in the office

would get it right, how he should be addressed and all that kind of thing. So there really is a tremendous nobility to this man that is impressive. want to ask, how is it that he got that? You said epiglottitis or whatever. What would we do for that today? What is that? I'm not quite sure. I mean, it's more than a sore throat. Right. Essentially, though, you would give antibiotics, would cure it. Back then, one of the doctors, there were three doctors tending to George Washington. And one doctor, and the epiglottis is essentially

the top of the windpipe. So if it swells shut, you can't get any air. And one of the doctors had the idea for a tracheotomy, which essentially would poke a hole. Now, that had not yet been invented, correct? Yeah, it was a pretty radical idea. And he wanted to poke the hole, bypass the obstruction, and try to get air. And theoretically, this could have worked. But given the state of 18th century medicine, it almost surely would not have worked. Oh, is that right?

Well, because he would have died of some sort of secondary infection. I was just going to say, wow. It's just incredible. And what was he, 68 or something like that? He was not old. He was, yeah, he was 67 years old. He was nearing his 68th birthday. And by the way, he had lived a lot longer than any other male of the Washington line.

And that was not by chance. He thought that Providence had a plan for him that had spared him all these years, that had kept him alive through all the battles he had faced. Because you think about he had been in the public eye for a long time, all the way back to the French Indian War when he had been present for massacres. And he had ridden through them and had bullets shot through. his clothes and he had survived all those things. So this is a man who had seen a lot of history.

Yeah, there's no, there's no question about that. He was such a, such a truly extraordinary figure. Hard not to think that God somehow had his hand on this man's life. We're going to be back to continue the conversation with Jonathan Horn. The book is Washington's End, not to be confused with Howard's End. We'll be right back. Why don't you come to your senses? You've been out riding fences.

Welcome back. I'm talking to Jonathan Horn, who's the author of a brand new book called Washington's End, which concerns the end of George Washington, the final years of Washington. Now, Jonathan, I assumed that you were at Yale about 20 years after I was there. I assumed you were a history major. I was an English major, actually, if you can believe it. No, no, I can believe it. I was an English major, too.

And the key to being an English major at Yale is understanding that you need to marry a banker, otherwise you'll starve. Or you've got to go into a different line of work. So you've obviously decided to write historical books. And I've done mostly the same, mostly the same thing. It is kind of funny. What does one do with an English major from Yale except mock it for the rest of one's life? I don't know. It's a great source of joke.

So as you said, that's the reason to do it. Yes. And we both know one that apparel with the Shah Rissota and the draught of March or the yada, yada, yada, and so on and so forth. Your accent is better than mine. It's classic. Well, some relatives of mine are fluent in Chaucerian English. They're very old. No, that's not true.

All right. So you've written about Washington. You've written about Robert E. Lee. for folks who know nothing about Lee, what is your take on Lee? Why did you choose to write a book on Robert E. Lee? Well, I got interested in Lee, and the title was the man who would not be Washington. And the reason I came up with that title is most people don't know that Robert E. Lee was the son of George Washington's most famous eulogist, the man who had written the words, first in war, first in peace, and first in the hearts of his countrymen.

And Robert E. Lee had also married the daughter of George Washington's, a daughter. adopted son. And on the eve of the second, what? Yeah. Well, through Jackie, correct. He had, through George Washington Park Custis, who was a son of, who was Martha Washington's grandson, and had had one daughter, Mary Anna Randolph Custis, who Robert Lee married at Arlington House, which is that great pillored mansion across the river from the Lincoln. I really don't remember these connections. But the, but the idea that Robert E. Lee was the son of, is it Light Horse Harry Lee? Who is that?

That's correct. Okay, Light Horse Harry Lee wrote the famous phrase, first in war, first in peace, and first in the hearts of his countrymen. I forgot that he was the father of Robert Lee. So Robert Lee kind of had this maybe Washington complex hanging over him, that he ought to rise to be a kind of a Washington, although, you know, many people do speak of him in terms that are similar to Washington, in terms of his noble bearing,

that there was something about the way he conducted himself. Absolutely. And on the eve of the Civil War, I think leaders on both sides in Richmond and in Washington, D.C., saw Robbery Lee as a symbolic figure. And actually- Leaders on both sides. Yeah, in fact, when there was an appeal made to Robbery Lee

to lead the Union Army, the main Union Army, one of the appeals was the country looks to you as the representative of the Washington family to save the union that George Washington forged. But of course, and what did the Confederates give him? How do they sweeten the deal? Like they give him like a like a sneaker deal

or like what did they give him to get him to play for their team? Well, essentially, so he turns down the Union Command and the ranking Union Army General at the time, who's a man named Winfield Scott says Lee, you've made the greatest mistake of your life, but I feared it would be so. And he ends up casting his fate with Virginia because he feels like he can't go to war against his native state of Virginia.

And it's really that simple for him. He can't, how can he go to war in his own home, he says? And he makes this decision and it's going to have catastrophic consequences. You mean the Confederates lost? Well, also for him personally, his house is, you know, the house where he was living is Arlington. This is where he makes the decision. And today, Arlington is our national cemetery. And that comes about as an act of essentially vengeance against the leave family.

And it has really catastrophic consequences for his family. That's just one example of what happens. This is another thing. This is why I like doing this show because I learned so much. I had no idea, honestly, that Arlington Cemetery, you know, was intentionally situated on the former homestead of Robert E. Lee, the leader of the Confederacy. That's an extraordinary thing.

Yeah, it was the house of his wife. and it's been built, as I said, by Martha Washington's grandson. It was filled with relics of George Washington because he was a collector of George Washington's items. The bed where George Washington had died was actually kept at Arlington. And so much of his legacy is going to be seized from the family. Where is that bed today? It's at Mount Vernon now. That bed is at Mount Vernon, the very bed where he died.

Yes. If you want to see the room where Washington died, go to Mount Vernon and the actual bed. where Washington died is in the room. I've been there and I've seen it, but I have a bad memory. I need to go places two or three times before it kind of sticks with me. But what an amazing thing. Mount Vernon is one of the greatest places I've ever visited. I imagine you've been there a number of times.

It's a real treasure and they really set the standard, I think, for historical preservation for all other sites across America. They did it first and they taught everyone else how to do it. Yes, exactly. Well, it's impressive the moment you walk in the door and you see the key from the Bastille that was given to Washington by, was it Rochambeau or Lafayette. I never remember Lafayette. But I mean, the fact that that's the key, there's the key. And you can go and look at it.

It's magnificent history. It's just extraordinary. Well, so you've written about Lee, you've written about Washington, about whom do you think you will write next? Well, I'm still figuring it out exactly, but I think I'm going to head into the early 19th century. This is an interesting time for our country, too, where so many of the debates that end up leading to the Civil War take place. And I'm very interested in some of the figures from that history, especially during the Andrew Jackson administration. So I think that's where I may be headed next. Andrew Jackson administration.

Yeah, I think there's some very interesting stories, I think, during that time that I'd like to dig in. Yeah. My sense of him is not clear. I know that many people have compared Trump to him for a number of reasons, some of which I understand and some of which I don't. We're going to be right back. If people want to find you online, Jonathan Horn, how can they do that? Go to my website. It's www.johnathanhornauthor.com. Jonathan Horn author, not to be confused with Jonathan Horn upholsterer. Okay, we'll be right back, folks. We're talking to Jonathan Horn. The book is Washington's End. Don't go away.

Hey, folks, welcome back. This is our final segment with Jonathan Horn, whom you can find at Jonathanhornauthor.com. The book is Washington's. And Jonathan, again, I think it's very important for us to know our history, particularly now. at what point in life did you feel proud of your country or, you know, did you grow up as so many of us did in a world? I mean, certainly going to a place like Yale, it's vaguely anti-American in every aspect. They kind of, the narrative is America bad, America colonialist or something like that. Was there a moment where you sort of changed your affections slightly or how did that work for you?

Well, I was actually at Yale during 9-11. which was interesting because the campus was, there were some people who had a very anti-American response to September 11th, which is sort of incredible to think about. But there were also, I thought, you know, I was lucky to have a group of friends who understood what had happened. And I was lucky then to go in and work for President George W. Bush and the White House. And I got part of working in the White House is getting to tell stories of heroism,

the men and women who wear our uniform. And I was very lucky to be able to write a number of a couple of Medal of Honor speeches for President Bush, which he handed out our nation's highest military decoration to people, to soldiers and to seals and to airmen who had made incredible sacrifices for this country. And unfortunately, they were posthumously on because so often those sacrifices, those acts of courage lead to our service members losing their lives. to be able to see, to be able to tell those stories was just a great honor and gave me such pride in our country.

Well, you know, having just celebrated Memorial Day, it's one of those things that unless you focus on it, unless some older person in your life, a teacher or a parent or a grandparent, forces you to look at these things. The natural thing is to ignore them. But when you're forced to see the sacrifices that were made, no matter what you think, you have to have a slightly humble attitude because most of us haven't made anything close to those sacrifices. It's one of the reasons that I get so excited to talk about Washington, the subject of your book, because he was a man who really understood this and lived out a kind of a noble calling

that we don't talk about very much. I know it's not much taught in public schools, and I always joke around that if you do pick it up along the line, by the time you get to a place like Yale, you unlearn it because the zeitgeist of places like Yale is very, you know, oddly anti-American. I'm, you know, I think you just experienced a little bit of it. I'm just guessing. Well, I think, yeah, I think it's probably even more so today, unfortunately, and very sadly. And, you know, one of the things I learned from writing this book was it gave me an appreciation for just how difficult it was for George Washington to surrender power. And you might say, well, does that lessen your opinion of George Washington to see how

difficult it was for him to surrender power? No, just the opposite, only by understanding how difficult it was for George Washington to surrender power. Can you understand the greatness took for him to do it and what made him so special? Folks, the book is Washington's end, the author Jonathan Horn. Jonathan, thank you so much. Thanks so much for having you today. We have been listening to my conversation with Jonathan Horn about his new book called Washington's. And in our two today, we're going to play an encore, folks.

Oh, boy, my friend, Pastor Dimas Salabarios, he is a black New Yorker. I love him. He was on with us to talk about the shooting in Charleston over four years. ago. And we had two people, Jennifer Pinckney and Rose Simmons, who had a relative murdered and who are talking about what does God say to do when there is racial injustice, when there is murder. They talk about the unthinkable. They talk about forgiving these murderers, this murderer. It is so unbelievable. Demas is a hero, Demus Salabarios, and he, is traveling around the country right now with these riots going on or whatever. He's bringing the

message of Jesus. We're going to go to a break. We're going to be right back, folks. I'm talking to Pastor Demas Salabarios.