The Eric Metaxas Show - Jonathan Seidl

Episode Date: October 5, 2021

Jonathan Seidl has an important new book that can help people looking for "a break": "Finding Rest: A Survivor's Guide to Navigating the Valleys of Anxiety, Faith, and Life."

to the Eric Mettaxas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Oh, hello. I didn't see you come in. My name's Eric. This is my program. So I have to be here. I don't know why you're here. But maybe it's because I have some really exciting guests on now and again.

For example, in a moment, I'm going to be talking to John Seidel, Jonathan Seidel, since we're just introducing him right now. He has a new book out. It's called Finding Rest, A Survivor. guide to navigating the valleys of anxiety, faith, and life. The forward is written by Kirk Cameron. Oh, yeah, that's right. It must be an important book if Kirk Cameron decided he would write the forward to it. Jonathan Seidel, you're pretty big shot.

How in the world did you get Kirk Cameron to write the forward to this book? I just, I can't believe this. What is going on around here is my question? Because I couldn't get Eric Metaxus to write it. So, you know, I had to go to Kirk. You had to go to Kirk. That's so sad. I'm so sorry.

Eric McAxas is such a jerk. He just doesn't care about other people. Let me just say this. Seriously, I've known you for a long time. You've been all over the place in a good way. I'm trying to remember you worked with I Am Second. I've talked about I Am Second many, many times on this program. People need to go to IAMSecond.com.

My testimony is there, along with the testimonies of scores of very, very interesting, varied people. I am second. You were with them. You've worked with Glenn Beck. I mean, you've kind of been all over the place, and now you're doing your own thing, and you've written a book. Is this a book where faith comes into the conversation? So I think it's a compliment that I got from someone who I told, this is a faith-based book on mental health and anxiety, and then they read it, and they said, wow, I was really surprised by how much faith is in here. And I said, well, I mean, that was the point. But so, yes, to answer your question, it is really a faith-based approach to how do we deal with our mental health issues, you know, especially in this time where they are popping up like crazy.

I believe this is my thesis. I've been saying this lately that the madness through which we are currently going, by the way, folks, if you don't think this is madness, you are in fact mad. You're crazy if you don't think circumstances are crazy. They are crazy, and the sane people know that they're crazy. But the fact is, anxiety goes up because absolutely none of us has had to deal with this before. Most of us have not had to deal with the madness. I mean, it doesn't – I hardly need to mention it. Any direction you go in, it's very challenging.

But I also say that the scripture commands us to be anxious for nothing. So clearly the Lord wants to help us. He doesn't want us to be anxious. He loves us so much that he even commands us not to be so that we don't say, well, it's extra credit. This is somehow he's telling me I can be at peace, even going through health issues, marital issues. We're all going through things. So I know that's in part where you're coming from. But you're right, John.

This is a really tough time. So I'm glad the book Finding Rest is brand new. So what is your advice to people? You know, what I talk about in the book and what my message has been to people just in the last couple days is, Eric, I think we need to really establish a proper theology of suffering. And what I mean by that is we need to understand that we are going through trials, right? We are going through mental health struggles. We're going through sickness, right? And even though that's not God's plan and his original design, the truth is that Jesus told us in this world you will have trouble.

So then what? What do you do with that? Right? And so for me, what I've had to learn since my diagnosis is I have to have an understanding that this is for my good and God's glory. That doesn't mean that he's this maniacal person out there like just, you know, really taking pleasure in the fact that I am going through pain. But as CS Lewis, my favorite author talks about, I mean, God shouts to us in our pain. And he's calling us and using it to call us to himself. And so that has been a foundational element of, of my understanding, it's a foundational element of this book. Well, you know and I know that what you just said, first of all, I completely agree. I've said it myself about a proper theology of suffering, because you get two different groups, roughly speaking, right? One group says, suffering, hey, man, that's yesterday. Jesus died on the cross.

It is finished. No more suffering, no more pain, no more nothing. I rebuke it. I rebuke it. And if it doesn't go away, it's because I don't have enough faith. Now, like every lie, there's a lot of truth in that. The problem is it's not all truth, and it will lead you away from clarity, from God's perfect perspective. Then there are other people that they sneer at that idea, and they talk about suffering and suffering, and they don't seem to

understand that God has given us power by faith to appropriate the glories of his presence in our lives in the midst of suffering. And so you tend to find people who are kind of sloppily on one side of the So where do you say we should come out? Yeah, and so I'm really glad you brought that up, right? I mean, I grew up in a home where sometimes, I mean, my stepdad would come to me just coughing up a lung and I'd say, are you sick? And he'd say, no, I'm not, I'm not sick. I'm not sick in Jesus' name, you know?

And then like you said, I think there are people who, in a sense, they sit in their suffering, right? It becomes their identity. No, the Lord has given me a new identity. I am not an anxiety, you know, I'm not John the anxiety guy. I'm John the child of God. And so we really do need to land in the middle there. And part of where I land is the fact that the Lord has given us common graces to deal with this stuff, whether that's medication, whether that's other things that, you know, we get scared about going to the doctor for a broken brain, right? But we'll never, you know, question going to the doctor for a broken bone. And yet the Lord has allowed these common graces for us. And I think we need to take advantage of them. Okay, so this is a tricky thing because there's no right answer. And I know this because I have taken pills for all kinds of things. And I think to myself, where is that line where you say, this is a crutch?

I need to lean on God instead, but I'm, you know, taking a pill. Really, that's no different than saying, I need to have three glasses of wine at night because I can't deal with stuff. And if I don't have that wine or the beer or something like that, most people would say, you know what, that's really not a healthy way to deal with it. Did you ever wonder if instead of having that wine, you should not have that wine and deal with it in a different way? In other words, we all want to medicate away the pain, and some of us do it. I mean, some people do it. They're workaholics.

Some people do it in sports and an exercise. And there was, all these good things can be used inappropriately. So when somebody says to me, I refuse to get medical help for this, this, or this, I am instead just going to believe God. I'm going to have faith. Clearly, you know, that's not nuts, but it can be nuts in many circumstances. And we don't ever seem to have that conversation. It seems like that's what you're talking about in the book, Finding Rest. Absolutely.

And so let me answer that question a little bit differently, and I'll do it this way. You know, there's this old story that goes, there was a man who was caught in a fly. blood, right, and the waters were rising, and the sheriff's department comes that says, get in the car, right? And he goes, no, I'm believing God. And a boat comes. And he goes, no, I'm believing God. And a helicopter comes. No, I'm believing God. And he dies. He goes to heaven. And God, and he says, or, and he says to God, why didn't you save me? He goes, I sent you an officer. I sent you a boat and I sent you a helicopter, right? And so that's how I view medication. It's like, that's a common grace. It's something the Lord has given me. Now, just like, Eric, if I'm out

getting drunk frequently. If I am, you know, taking a medication that is constantly putting me in a stupor, I mean, absolutely not, right? That is where I think that line obviously gets crossed. But I can tell you, my Prozac doesn't do that to me, right? And so I take it confidently. So should I, should I believe God? I mean, actually, see, the thing is, John, and I know you well enough to know that we know, I said before, there's no right answer in the sense that there are who do need to have more faith to exercise their faith and say, you know what, I'm going to pray, I'm going to believe God for this, and I'm going to, there's a time to do that. But there's another time to say, my hip hurts so badly, I've had it prayed for a thousand times. I think maybe it's

time to have the surgery. But there are people who would say, no, no, no, that is a lack of faith. you need to keep praying, you need to keep whatever. And you almost can't argue with them because it's in their head. But what you're saying is that we shouldn't have shame if we have to go in that direction. But there's a particular shame with regard to mental health. People are dealing with depression. I've dealt with this. And I've had to deal with this exact issue.

We're going to let you answer that question on the other side of the break. Folks, talking to John Cytle the book is Finding Rest. Hey, folks, do you wish you remembered names better and thought more clearly? Hey, improve your memory with Vivalour memory support. Vivalour's founder actually prayed that God would show her the solution to memory loss when her mother had dementia. She had divine encounters, and her faith in her background as a pharmacist led Susan Gibson to create Vivalor memory support. Vivalour is a premium quality, all natural supplement with five to 20 times more nutrients than any other memory supplement. Wow, it's won many awards.

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finding rest as Survivor's Guide to Navigating the Valleys of Anxiety, Faith, and Life. John, we had to cut you off there just as you were about to give us your thinking. So please go ahead. So there's an often forgot verse in the book of First Timothy, and it goes like this. It's kind of, if you even look in the ESV, it's literally just like a parenthetical phrase. And it's, Paul is talking to Timothy, and Paul goes to Timothy, hey, by the way, I think you should drink some wine for your frequent ailments, right? And then like just leaves it there, right? Now, obviously, going back to our previous point, I'm not recommending people use wine to treat their anxiety or depression. But what that does tell us, Eric, is that even Paul was telling

Timothy, this is a physical answer to a physical problem, right? And so our problems with mental health are a physical problem, right? There is synapses that aren't firing. There's levels that are off. And so So if a physical answer to a physical problem is good enough for Paul and Timothy, I think it should be good enough for us. Well, that's pretty cool. I mean, I just love this when we're reminded. Oh, by the way, scripture, the Word of God says this. Did you skip this? Paul does not say, hey, Timothy, suck it up.

You need to have more faith for thy stomach's sake. No, he says, have a little wine for thy stomach's sake. In other words, not only is it not a sin. In the Word of God, it says, take this medicine. for this ailment, he doesn't just say pray it away. That's biblical. Yes, absolutely. And so I think there's actually a lot more if you look at the word of God and not just try to fit it to what you believe, right? I mean, that happens so often what you already believe. But if you say, I'm going to approach this and what does the words say about it? And I think

there's actually a lot of basis for the fact that God has offered us physical answers to problems that, By the way, Eric, I will admit my mental health is a physical and a spiritual issue. There are some spiritual issues that I need to root out, pride, lack of trust in the Lord, you know, wanting to control everything. But for me, I can't deal with the deeper spiritual issues until I address the physical issues. My anxiety isn't at eight. I'm never going to be able to sit down and get in the word, right? I need to bring that down to a four.

So then I'm able to actually work on those spiritual issues. Okay, that's a big thing what you just said. And this has affected me personally over the years. There are people who simply won't accept that mental health can be treatable with drugs. They just say that category, no, no, no, no, no, because it's mental health, it's just a spiritual issue. Now, I'm the first person to say there are spiritual issues that affect mental health. There are people that are being oppressed and harassed by demonic powers. That is real, folks. So if that's going on, a pill ain't going to fix it.

But the fact of the matter is there are people who have imbalances, chemical imbalances, where a pill can fix it. And the idea that it's got to be a one-size-fits-all answer is ridiculous. So anybody who comes out on either side of that, you're both wrong. The fact of the matter is these things are. complex. When you're dealing with something as ineffable as what's going on in our psyches, it's very tough to diagnose. What else do you get into in the book, John? Yeah, and I think one other thing on that point, Eric, is let me say this. I am not out here trying to diagnose everyone and tell

them that they have to get on medication, right? You know, I say, listen, talk to your pastor, talk to your counselor, talk to your doctor, right, and make that decision together. I think the other thing that I get into the book, Eric, that I, it was one of those things my wife said, you have to put this in there. And when your wife tells you, you have to put it in there, guess what? You have to put it in there. Is, you know, what I didn't realize as I was undiagnosed and during my struggles is what kind of effect that was having on her. And so there's an entire chapter in the book for loved ones, right? How do you handle all, you know, how do you handle it when your loved one is going through this, right? And it has actually been a, such a blessing to so many people. And it's one of the chapters I've gotten

really good early feedback on because even if you don't struggle and you want to understand better, you can read the book and get a better understanding of what's going on. Okay, this is really heavy stuff because I have dealt with this, both sides of this issue. I've lived this. I've talked about it on this program. When you're dealing with flat-out depression, depression, and a lot of people don't understand. We're not talking about the blues. We're not talking about, eh, I'm going through a tough time. We're talking about depression, like a headache or a toothache.

You don't say, walk it off, you know, just to get some fresh air. No, it's a toothache. I got to go to the dentist. No, it's a headache. I got to lie down. I got to take an aspirin. I got to do something. It's a headache.

You get it? People don't understand that mental health issues can be just like that. Something happens that it has nothing to do with circumstances or anything. It is, it happens to. to you, and most people don't know what to do, don't know how to deal with it. And then the effect that that can have on people around you, a spouse, whatever, it's huge. This is huge stuff. So simply having a conversation about this, John, is huge.

So I'm grateful to you for writing about it in the book. The book is Finding Rest. By the way, who published this book? Kriegel. Creagle publications. I love the cover. The cover is two clouds with a hammock that's connected. in the middle.

That's a beautiful. Whoever did that, go to the head of the class. I love that design. But we are, we're living in a time when I think a lot of people are over-medicated,

but then you have people that you and I know kind of in the faith community, which really act like anybody taking a pill. Like that's just a bad, it's just a bad idea. So, I mean, if you're really,

you know, wondering, how do I know if I have, if I have something that a pill can fix. I always tell people if you can avoid a pill, definitely try to avoid the pill. But how do we know? Where do we go to get answers? Yeah, it's a great question. And one of the little tools that I use, kind of the litmus tests, right, is you talked earlier,

you know, we're not just talking about the blues. We're not just talking about, you know, just some general sadness, right? So for me, whether it's depression, anxiety, or OCD, when those issues start hampering your day-to-day life, right? When it's not just, oh, I can't stop thinking about this. It's, I don't know if the door is locked, and now I'm going to go check it 35 times, and now I'm late for work, right? So when those type of issues start happening and they are affecting your daily life, that's when I think you need to go talk to someone. And like I said, talk to someone, right? Talk to that pastor, counselor, doctor, psychiatrist, whatever. You know, I go to a Christian counselor,

and I go for tune-ups, I call them, right? I'm now to a point where I don't have to go every week, but I go for tune-ups, and it's great. And the last thing I would say is this, Eric, even if you do take medication, there is no magic pill, right? You are still going to have to do the work, the work spiritually, but also some of the other work physically, you know, I have to make sure that I'm working out regularly, right? Because it's scientifically proven to help boost my mood, you know? So there's other work that needs to be done.

So even if you're on medication, don't treat it like a magic pill. Well, that's interesting you bring that up because one of the most powerful things for me has been exercise. I would, I think, in the natural, prefer not to exercise, right? But I've realized that if I don't, I will suffer. I'm being blunt. Yes. If I do not run or whatever it is, I will suffer. And I don't like to suffer.

I don't like it. And so I've made it a habit. And I think people forget that these are kind of. complex things. It's almost like if somebody is like if they're overweight and they're smoking and they've got depression, whatever, you say, hey, quitting smoking is 100% upside. Losing weight, getting in shape, 100% upside. Deal with that, I would say, before you go to the pills, because maybe you can get by without pills. But if you have to take a pill or whatever, that's fine too. But mentioning what you said, that there's other stuff. Some of us have ancestral issues,

Like just bad habits that go to the way we were raised or whatever, we do need to deal with that. A pill can't cure that. What other kinds of things do people need to look at to deal with to address? Yeah, it's great. There's an entire chapter in the book dedicated to this. Two things I will say. One is sleep, right? We do not get enough sleep in this country.

And I don't get enough sleep. And it is scientifically proven that your sleep affects your mood. And so even just one night of really good sleep can reset in a sense your clock and your mood. The other thing I would say five minutes of sunlight a day, five minutes only affects your mood, right? So these things like exercise and sleep. And the other thing I've learned, Eric, food, right, is I have stopped now. I used to drink coffee all day. My goodness.

You know, a curig should sponsor me. But I had to stop drinking coffee in the afternoons because I realized it was coffee makes you anxious. And so if you're already an anxious person, guess what you shouldn't do. You shouldn't take something that makes you anxious. So little things like that that really go to what I call the physical battle. That's a spiritual battle and there's a physical battle. And I need to do everything I can in that physical realm to make sure that I'm combating this. I love it.

I love it. This is a conversation we need to have, folks. The sleep thing, that is another thing. It took me years to figure it out. That is the guarantee. If I want to do well, I need to get sleep, whatever it takes. This is all so important. People need to hear this. We need to be reminded. We'll be right back, folks. The new book is Finding Rest. Don't go away. Hey, folks, I've got to tell you a secret about relief factor that the father, son, owners, Pete and Seth Talbot have never made a big deal about, but I think it is a big deal. I really do. They sell the three-week quick start pack for just 1995 to anyone struggling from pain like neck, shoulder, back, hip, or knee pain,

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Go to relieffactor.com. Relieffactor.com or call 800-500-384-800-500-584. Relieffactor.com. I use it. It works. Hey there, folks. I'm talking to John Seidel, the author of Finding Rest, a new book. Kirk Cameron, our mutual friend, writes, John knows better than most what it means to battle anxiety

and how to forge a path to victory. He also treats it with care and pushes the conversation to places that it hasn't often gone in the church. That's exactly my experience, John, as I said, that you find people who really don't understand this, they haven't lived through it as you have, and I have, and they kind of give a Band-Aid

that's either way over here on the left or way over here on the right. They don't really understand it's complex. And so what do you say by way of encouragement at the end of the book? I think you were going to talk about that. Yeah, absolutely. And the one thing I will say, Eric, and I think maybe you can appreciate this term is, I think so often that band-aid is what I call coffee cup Christianity.

Right. It looks good on a coffee cup. And so I'm going to give it to you. I can do all things who Christ who strengthens me, you know, that kind of stuff is not helpful for people like us, right? But my encouragement at the end of the book is this. this is an ongoing battle for me. It's an ongoing battle for you, right? I pray, Eric, every day that the Lord would take this away from me. Take this cup, right? Just like Paul, prayed that the thorn would be removed. It hasn't been removed. Do I believe my God is big enough and powerful enough to do that? Absolutely he is. But yet, and this kind of goes back to that proper theology of suffering, he hasn't done it. So that means I have to, it is important for me to interpret my circumstances by who God, God is and not interpret who God is by my circumstances, right? And so I know God is good. I know that

he allows these things. And so it is an ongoing battle. And that means it's another opportunity for me to get closer to God. And it also means that he's doing some things to continue to refine me and maybe even redefine me. And so the people who have prayed and asked and they still struggle, I would say, that doesn't mean you, you know, your prayers are bad. You don't have enough faith. There's unrepentant sin in your life, it means, guess what? There's still more that the Lord wants to teach you through this. I mean, that's, again, that's the bigger thing, is that there's so much here. Number one, scripture says over and over, God wants to walk with us through difficulty. He doesn't always make it go away. Yay, I walk through the valley of the shadow of death.

I mean, he doesn't say, no, I'm going to take that away. You don't have to walk through any valley of the shadow of death. Skip that. That's Old Testament. New Testament, victory, victory, victory. No, we have to sometimes walk through these things. And so the question is, what does God want to teach me in this difficulty? But what you said earlier about sleep, exercise, diet, these are basic things. And listen, there are a lot of people in the church that they completely ignore that. I mean, I see people in the church, and they just look physically tremendously unhealthy. And it's not, you know, polite to come up to them and say, hey, you look like a wreck.

what is going on with you, so we say nothing. But if you love somebody, you just think, of course I want them to feel well and to do well. But these aren't conversations we typically have. We talk about faith, having faith, but I'm just glad, John, that you have talked about this. I mean, do you talk about your personal struggle in the book as well? Yeah, absolutely.

I talk about even just the moment that made me realize I needed to get help. You know, it was a conversation with my wife. And when your loved one, the one you love the most, right, is broken in front of you and struggling and saying, John, I can't walk on eggshells, which is a term of anyone who struggle with anxiety, you've heard that from your loved one. I can't walk on eggshells, right? And so that's what really kind of finally, you know, broke through to me. And Eric, I also talk about, you know, this conversation that we're having about the

have enough faith and that kind of thing, I had to have that conversation with my mom. and it was one of the most difficult conversations of my life. And so I know I put that in there because I know there's a lot of people that are being forced to have those conversations. You mean you were raised in a home where like you were saying, your stepdad is saying like, no, I'm just, I'm fine, I'm fine. Because people have been taught that even to acknowledge something is a quote unquote negative confession. Just speak faith. Absolutely. Now I get that.

But it can become crazy. You've got to have a balance. And some people, they don't, so it sounds to me like, yeah, you were getting that message so strongly that you had to push back. Yeah, absolutely. And then I also talk about even if you don't struggle with mental health, right? My stepdad and my sister both died within the last three years, right? So if all these things that I'm learning about mental health and a proper theology of suffering, you know, C.S. Lewis again, talks about like, you're never for, you never know what you believe until you're really forced to admit whether you believe it or not. through trials. And it was a moment where I was forced to say, do I really believe this?

Right? When your sister dies in a car accident, that's not her fault, when your stepdad has a massive stroke, and he's one of the healthiest people you know, you know. And so even if you don't struggle with mental health, that idea of the proper theology of suffering is so foundational to the book that I think you can help a lot of people. I love it. The proper theological foundation for suffering, you're right, John, because if you don't acknowledge that God allows, that God, allows bad things to happen, then the natural conclusion is, I did something wrong, somebody did something wrong, and you think, first of all, we all did everything wrong. We are sinners saved by grace, so we deserve nothing. God comes into our lives, and he still allows difficulty. I mean,

think of the stories we could tell people that we know. You just mentioned your own life, and I think that it is no less than the enemy of our souls that wants to tell us, You did something wrong. You're bad. You deserve this. That is not the voice of God. And I know that's part of what you talk about in here. I know the book's been doing well, yes?

Yeah, I woke up this morning. It was the number 77 bestseller on all of Amazon. And I woke my wife up. I kind of squeached. I squealed a little bit and screeched. And she, you know, gets out of bed. Are you okay? Listen, that shows you the hunger for good information and wisdom is really what I'm looking for.

That's the word on this subject is huge. That's why so many people are buying the book. Folks, it's Finding Rest, a Survivor's Guide, Navigating the Valies of Anxiety, Faith, and Life by Jonathan Sidel. Jonathan, thank you. Hey, folks, Eric Metaxis here. Joe Biden and the Democrats have laid out the most socialist agenda our country has ever seen. Instead of following President Trump's blueprint that had the economy, booming. The Dems are going to raise taxes, increase regulations, and skyrocket an already outrageous

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What case can we talk about that you guys are working on? Because I want my audience to understand what it is that you do on a daily basis, fighting for everybody in America. We just don't know. We go about our lives. If you weren't doing this, we'd be in a different America, to be honest. So what are you guys working on right now? Well, one of the high-profile cases we're actually asking the U.S. Supreme Court to take is the one of Lori Smith and 303 creation. So she is an artist, a web designer that does incredible work. And is concerned she's in the state of Colorado, concerned that she's going to be forced by the state to design sort of custom wedding sites for same-sex marriages that violate her beliefs.

And according to a federal court of appeals, yes, the government can force her to create messages, to create websites to speak in support of same-sex marriages in violation of her deeply held religious beliefs. I mean, I just want to say to my fellow Americans that when you're on the right side, you're on the right side. But it really doesn't matter if people can just push you around. So you have to go, in some cases, to court. And what do you do? Where do you go? The Alliance Defending Freedom is there. It's unconscionable that in America, somebody can say to you, I want you to bake a cake that says, I don't know, think of your favorite offensive statement, du jour. I hate women. I hate blacks. I hate Jews, whatever. Bake my cake. I'm paying you money. Bake the cake. Why should an American have to do that? Why should an American have to create a website for somebody who's promoting something they disagree with? In America, you don't have to do that. The Constitution says, no, we ever lose liberty, freedom of expression. And yet it is happening. And so if it weren't for Alliance Defending Freedom, and you, Matt Sharp, you understand this because you are there. If it weren't for you guys, taking these cases.

cases and figuring out how do we bring them to the Supreme Court, how do we get our laws to reflect what the Constitution says? It's the work of the law, and it takes place in the courts. Matt, you can you talk about what Governor Abbott in Texas has been doing with regard to trying to get, and again, this is just pure common sense, but we are having to fight in the courts for common sense, that men should not be able to compete with women in high school. Talk about that case. Yeah. So I think a lot of people are familiar with what's going on with men being allowed to compete in women's sports. A lot of it started in Connecticut with our clients, Selena, Sol and others that were losing out on opportunities because of a policy that allowed two guys to compete.

And in response, several states have passed laws that protect female sports, that protect fairness, and now one is being considered in Texas. And what we're hoping is that this law will protect every girl, not just high school girls, but also college girls, so that a girl that graduates from high school to college doesn't find herself being forced to compete against a guy. And as you said, this is not only just common sense, but science is backing this up. In fact, there was actually a report that came out from a UK United Kingdom group today affirming what we all know, which is that men have advantages over women. Those advantages don't go away just because you're on puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones.

And that's what Texas and other states need to do is to protect fairness in women's sports. I mean, the biceps that I have, you know, there's nothing going to make them go away. This is just who I am, okay? It is true, though. I mean, I always have to joke because it's so crazy to me that you could have these high school male athletes suddenly deciding, I think, whether flippantly or honestly, we don't know, to compete against girls. reality is they're destroying these girls' chances of getting scholarships and so on and so forth. This is not right, folks. It's simply not right. But if you do not have the Alliance Defending Freedom fighting for you, we know that school administrators, folks in government, are by and large,

utterly gutless cowards who also clearly don't care about you and your kids. Otherwise, they would fight. So you have to go to the Alliance Defending Freedom who do fight, but they need our help. I want to say, folks, please go to my website, metaxis talk.com. You see the banner. We desperately do need your help. Matt, how long have you been with ADF? And what is it that makes you want to do this kind of thing? I've been doing this for over 11 years now. And it honestly started with my dad. My dad is now retired, but was a pastor. And I remember concerns of one. day is the government going to come knocking on the church door because of something he preached of holding true to gospel truth. And that's what led me into this to make sure that whether it's my

dad or others, business owners, high school athletes, whatever they may be, that they're never forced by the government to do something or say something that violates their religious convictions. Well, I throw this out there all the time when we're trying to raise money for something I believe in. I say to folks, if you'll make a donation of $10,000 to the Alliance Defending Freedom, which is as good a cause as it gets in this hour, folks. If you want to know what can I do, you can help the Alliance Defending Freedom. But if you'll make a donation of $10,000, it will be my honor to join you and your family or friends for dinner anywhere we can get together. I just put that out there because it's fun for me to meet people who care about what I care about,

who care about the country and religious liberty. And I want to encourage anybody out there, whatever you can give. We're in a battle right now, folks, and you're going to be sort of. sorry if you don't pitch in wherever you can. This is just one place. But if you don't pitch in now and all of these things go away and you're living in a different country, this is not scaremongering. This is real. I wish it weren't real, but it's very, very real. People's lives are already being affected. The difference between this country and other countries is we understand the law is on our side. All we have to do really is fight. That's what ADF does. So I'm going to ask you

again, please go to the lines of any freedom. I've got a phone number if you prefer to call. You can always call. And the number, well, the website, of course, is metaxistalk.com, but the number is 855-447-53-53-8553-55-547-53-53. Or again, go to metaxisstalk.com. You'll see the banner. We need your help. And Matt Sharp, thank you so much for the working. you do and for being on the program. Thanks for having me, Art. Spirits are using me. Large your voices call.

Are you ready? Oh, boy. Albin, I want to give away copies of Is Atheism Dead. You do? But I can't. Why not? Because it doesn't come out until October 19th

and the publisher will shoot me. But they don't listen to this program. No. So I could do it. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm not supposed to do this. I've got only a handful of these copies, right? So I'm holding one in my hand now.

It's a gorgeous book. The list price is $28. I think Amazon has it for $25. I think Baker, if you go to the link on my website, Eric Mataxis.com, I think they've got it for 1497. That's 45% off. So we want people to pre-order it. If you join the launch team, we'll send you an electronic copy.

But if you want this book that I'm holding in my hand, mailed to you, sign to you. signed to you if you give $2,500 to ADF tax deductible. Now, folks, I know there are folks out there who can do this easily enough. This is an extraordinary organization. They are fighting for religious liberty. I don't see how you get around knowing that without ADF, we're dead, folks. They are fighting at the Supreme Court.

They are winning key cases of religious liberty at a time never before. My friend and hero, Chuck Holson, would talk about religious liberty all the time. And I kept thinking, what's he talking about? And as the years have passed, I have understood the threats to religious liberty, whether it's vaccine mandates, whether it's telling you what you can and can't say on campus, whether it's telling you that you must use somebody's crazy pronouns or else you'll lose your job on and on and on. If you don't care about that stuff, you're not paying attention. It's your duty to care about these things. So I want to tell you, ADF is fighting for you. You have to go to our website, metaxistalkis talk.com.

That's the radio website. You'll see the banner for ADF metaxistock.com. We want people to give generously. Actually, they're battling efforts by some local and state governments to close churches during the pandemic. Okay. They're fighting for free speech. Let's listen to ADF's senior counsel, Matt Bowman. Let's hear that.

And these are churches that are following masks and CDC guidelines, but are just saying it is important for us as a congregation to come to and worship together. We've been able to get over a dozen victories on behalf of churches, getting laws struck down, getting victories so that churches are able to meet together once again. We are literally keeping the door open for the gospel in those circumstances. You've got to care about this. I mean, I'm just saying this. I don't want to tell you what to think, but I want to, I'm enjoining you to take this seriously. We are in a battle for the soul of America. Religious liberty is at the heart. I'm not just saying, saying this. The reason ADF comes to us to raise funds is because they know that this audience

cares about that. And now if you don't care about that, I'm just telling you, folks, you must, you should. It's the right thing to do. The nation hangs in the balance. If we don't have religious liberty, everything goes. If they can silence the church. The Nazis did it in the 30s in Germany. That's what any big state government tries to do. If you don't push back because you're free because you can in the courts, in the court of public opinion, you will lose. And so we are losing. Alliance Defending Freedom is fighting for us. They're our last hope.

I mean, I'm not kidding. They're going to the Supreme Court. They're winning these cases. So if anybody gives us $2,500 now, look, we want everybody to go to the website, metaxistock.com and give us something, please. But if anybody gives $2,500, I will get you a copy of this ASAP. This is like more than two weeks before you can get it yourself. It'll be signed to you.

We need your help. Anybody who gives $1,000 will get signed book plates and other things. Anybody who can afford to give $10,000, it would be my honor to join you for an evening to have dinner together with you and as many people as you like, anywhere you like. And by the way, I've had dinner with Eric and it's a blast. So please consider $10,000 is all what cost. Well, but I mean, this is, you're giving to tremendously great organization. Yes, you want.

What can I do? And I'm just telling you, you could do this. If you can give anything to them, you're doing something, it's absolutely crucial to everything we're going through right now. Real quick. Phone number, 855-547-5333. Dial it right now, 855-547-533, 855-547-533 or go to the website metaxisstalk.com.