The Eric Metaxas Show - Jordan Peterson

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

Renowned psychologist Jordan Peterson joins Eric to discuss several important topics including masculinity and theology. 

Folks, welcome to the Eric Metaxus show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m. Investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. I shouldn't tell you this, but Eric hired someone who sounds just like him to host today's show. But since I'm the announcer, they told me, so I'm telling you, don't be fooled. The real Eric's in jail. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the program. Wow.

It's, Albin, it sounds like you. How did you get in here? I don't know. I just came down here just for the eclipse. And I thought the moon was going to double back and maybe I could have thought it. Yeah. Yeah, the eclipse. I thought it was canceled because of budget cuts.

But it was actually, it happened. It went up. It went up. Yeah. The lights on Broadway, right? All right. Now, listen, we've got a couple things we have to mention here. First of all, today in both hours, I'm talking to Jordan Peterson.

Jordan Peterson for two hours. And he's hard to wrangle. It's kind of like hurting bees. But in a good way, because he's amazing. Well, all you need to do is put some Canadian maple syrup out, like a trap. He's a lot like the intellectual Mike Lindell. Like he's just hard to, he's hard to wrestle because he's just so, you know, so much energy. It's amazing.

But anyway, both hours today, ladies and gentlemen, my conversation with Jordan Peterson. and that's coming up, get ready. It's crazy. And now, we've got to talk about the last couple of days. I mean, I was here in the studio a couple days ago. Then I blasted out of here to drive to the bookstore, New Life Christian bookstore in Queens, in the middle of nowhere. It's a three-story bookstore, though, right? It's in the middle of nowhere in Queens, and I drove my car.

So I'd have come here, drive my car. I normally drive my car. I got a Chevy Tahoe. It's like 2012. Chevy Tau. People want to know, you know, how does Eric Mtaxas roll? Yeah. Well, I literally roll with a 2012 Chevy Tau. That is my vehicle. And I, so I had to drive it here to the studio. As soon as we were done here, I had to drive way out to Queens to sign 1,030 books. With your hands. My new book, with this hand, my new book, every time you get an autographed book from American Texas,

I signed it. It's not like, you know, some automatic pen or whatever somebody might think it is. I thought you paid college kids to do that. Well, yes, I do. No, I graduated college, so I'm qualified to do it myself. So I sign every single book. You know, if you buy three of them, you'll see the signatures different in every one. So, but to sign a thousand books is exhausting. Yeah. It is exhausting. And I was not looking forward to it, even though I'm honored that people would want to get an autograph book. And by the way, you can get these books from Socrates in the city.com only copies. my new book, Religinalist Christianity, can get at Socratescom autographed, right? So, but the point is I had to go sign them.

So I drive out there. I'm kind of feeling sorry for myself because I'm thinking this is just like brain-killing work to sign a thousand books. But then, as I'm driving out there, I thought, wait a minute, praise the Lord in all circumstances, be thankful, you know, in all circumstances. Have a good attitude. So I said, the Lord will meet me as he sees fit. So I'm there and I'm signing books. and one guy comes in to the bookstore. He's looking for a book.

I start talking to him. We had a wonderful conversation. He's in New York in Corrections. He works and he was asking me, so it's kind of fascinating talking to him as I'm signing the books. Then four Norwegian guys stumble in. This sounds like a folktale.

Four Norwegian guys, like three of them college age, the other one like, you know, maybe late 30s or whatever. And they're from some Bible college in Norway. And they're in the middle of Queens. Anybody knows Queens, the middle of Queens, like some bookstore on, on, what is it, Queens Boulevard, you know, near the Van Wick Parkway.

So these Norwegian guys come in, and they're talking to Rich, the owner, about, you know, they're asking him about these books, whatever, but they're literally from Norway. Do they have smoked fish on them? I think they, no. And they were staying someplace in New Jersey, and they kind of want to go to a Christian bookstore. And the best one is New Life Christian bookstore in Queens, right? So they make this pilgrimage to the bookstore. So one of these young guys, I guess we're talking a little bit, and one of them, they didn't know about my Bonhofer book or anything.

I mean, they're college kids. And because I said, that's the only book I've ever written that's translated into Norwegian. And so we're talking. So a few minutes later, one of these guys comes back with my book, Is Atheism Dead? And he says, did you write this book? I said, yes. And he says, I have read this book in Norway, in Norwegian. And I said, I don't think so.

I said, I would know if my book was translated into Norwegian, you know, so I shoved him and he fell down. No, just kidding. And then he pulled out a smoked version of that book. And I said, seriously, I don't think my book was translated into Norwegian. I mean, I would know because usually the publisher, they would send you a copy, and I'd have that at home. Yeah. And so he then comes over with his friend. The friend pulls out his phone and shows me on his phone a copy of my book, is atheism dead, in Norwegian.

So he was right. It was translated into Norwegian. The publisher never sent me a copy. I was blown away, right? So we're talking. He says, yeah, he goes, I have dyslexia. I don't like to read books, but I started reading your book is atheism dead. I couldn't put it down. And it sort of changed his life.

He decided from this book that he wanted to go to a Bible college specifically to study apologetics. This young guy is telling me this, right? His name was Jonas or Jonas. And I said, are you kidding? And then he says to me, if not for your book, I would not be here in the United States today. Wow. Because this book made him decide to go to this Bible college,

and the Bible College had a trip to America, and he's on this trip. And on this trip, he stumbles into a bookstore in Queens, and the author of the book happens to be at the bookstore that day. Wow. I was so blown away. Honestly, it was so amazing. Did you sign it then for free?

No, there's no Norwegian copy of the book. So I couldn't. I mean, not in the bookstore in Queens. but it was just such a joyful thing, I just have to say. It was amazing. And then, of course... One of the odds of that. That's pretty wild.

No, no, it was nuts. There's certain things that you just say, if that's not a miracle, that's a miracle. It was nuts. And I'm giving you the fast version. But so then I drove to Danbury, you know, hanging out with my mom up there, and I decided the next day I bought all these trees that I want to plant.

So yesterday, I'm in Danbury, Connecticut, planting trees, but my car is making these funny sounds. So I had taken into the dealership. It just ended up being an insane day. When you won from a two-dollar. 2012 to Tom. Well, no, but that's the point. The 2012 should be Taos.

Oh, stop it. So I had to get the car fixed. By God's grace, I got it fixed in time, planting the trees, getting the car fixed, then I jump in the car and drive. I had to drive back. Why? Because Jordan Peterson last night was at Radio City

music call here in New York. Yeah. So. Did he sing feelings? Nothing. You know, that's not part of his repertoire. Did he do high kicks like the Rockettes? No.

That's too bad. But Radio City was packed. It was unbelievable. I got to go backstage. But all this was in preparation for what you're going to hear in a few minutes, my conversation with him. But so, you know, to be there last night at Radio City. And then today, the only reason it kind of worked out that I got to interview him on this program, which you'll hear in a couple of minutes, is because the Babylon B guys who they interviewed him

for something else. And they thought, oh, he's in New York. Can we use your building at TBN? Yes. So they did that here. So we were hanging out with them. If I sound exhausted, it's because I was hanging out with the Babylon Bee guys. I mean, the Babylon Bee guys, they were doing sketches. It was very unusual. Yeah. In a good way. But it was a lot. In a good way. And Alvin, you're a living witness. I am a living witness. You kind of like the last man who saw Lincoln shot. Here he is, ladies and gentlemen. Tell us your story. No, but I mean, it was amazing. So we had the Babylon B guys. We had Jordan Peterson. We had Albin. We had Eric Swithin with the fatherless. And we actually had to cut our last guest because we just ran out of time. Everything kind of ran over.

But, you know, you had an interview with Kyle Mann that was very funny. Yeah. That they're going to air on their... Oh, the Babylon B interviewed me for a film that they're making. It's coming out in September. And I just want to mention real quick, when I was working with you, you know, many years ago, the number one guest people kept wanting you to have on was Jordan Peterson. I mean, I'm not kidding. Since day one there, Jordan Peterson, how about Eric interviewed Jordan Peterson?

Jordan Peterson. We kept trying to get him, and you stumbled into it. Well, to me, this is just the warm-up. I want to interview him for Socrates in the city, like in Athens or something like that. But anyway, it was, it's extraordinary. You're going to hear that conversation. It's a little bit all over the place

because there's certain people like Jordan Peterson. I mean, he's so brilliant. And, you know, I don't know where to start. It was great. By the way, we need to thank our supporters for our kids. campaign. Oh, Alliance Defending Freedom. Folks, those of you who gave to the Alliance Defending Freedom campaign, I want to say, I should have been saying this. Thank you so much. We hit our goal. I never

dreamt we would hit our goal. We exceeded our goal. The Alliance Defending Freedom are heroes. And those of you who gave, I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. It's just an amazing, amazing thing, the fact that so many of you gave, we impressed. the brass at Salem. They really thought, like, Eric, I don't know how you did this. I don't know how you did this. Because Hugh Hewitt, he didn't raise his goal. None of them did.

None of them. My goal was to beat Hugh Hewitt. No, but it's so amazing. God bless you guys. You're the best audience. Okay, when we come back, two hours of Jordan Peterson. Buckle up, buddy. Remember as a kid, your parents and grandparents

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Thank you, sir. You're one of those people that, I don't know where to begin with you, because you're large, you're vast, you contain multitudes. We can talk about so many different things. Can we start with something banal and specific? You're from Canada? Just true or false. It's almost nothing.

More banal or specific than that. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, I don't know. Yes, I'm from Canada. Yes, you're from Canada. But here you are in America. I know. Are you here, are you doing something like a tour or anything?

I'm on a 51 city tour through the U.S. and down into Central America and South America. Wow. Yeah. So that ends in June. We're about halfway through it at the moment. Yes. You're going to be in Wallingford, Connecticut. Because my brother lives in Wallingford.

Yesterday, of course, just yesterday, you were in Radio City Music Hall. It was, it's amazing on a number of levels. That is just one of the iconic spaces in the world. And the idea that you, Jordan Peterson, have risen to a level where you stand on a stage and talk, and, you know, about 6,000 people show up to hear you. Yeah. Color me impressed. Yeah.

It's very strange. Isn't it amazing? It's wonderful. Yes. And if you have any sense in my position, you understand how remarkable that is and you're very grateful for it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just absolutely wonderful.

It's very unlikely. Well, first of all, as you pointed out, I'm Canadian. So just that in itself. Yeah, we don't like that. Other than William Shatner, we just were not interested in Canadians. No, but, well, again, there's so much to say. Let's just start with that. Last night, Pact House, Radio City,

and the title of the tour is the We Who Wrestle with God Tour. part of the conversation, part of your lecture, and then the subsequent conversation with Constantine has to do with the question of who is God. And you seem often, you seemed to me in the course of things, to define God for me, a Christian, somewhat oddly, not really oddly, but somewhat oddly, because you're coming from the perspective of a Jungian analyst. And so I thought, why don't we just start there? When the title of the tour is We Who Wrestle with God. That's what the name Israel means.

We who wrestle with God. I think I knew that. Israel is the chosen people of God, and that implies that those who wrestle with God are his chosen people. And you might say, well, what does that mean? I might say what does that mean. For example, right now, I will say it. What does that mean?

Well, it means that we have to make moral decisions. Right. And in ignorance. And so that's always a wrestling. It's always difficult. Conflicts of duty, well, the choice between good and evil, that's obviously one form of wrestling, but the choice between various goods,

it's often the case that the most serious conflicts that we have in our life are choices between positive options for example. It's always a wrestling. It's difficult. And life is that wrestling. And it is that because there's not really much difference between moral decisions and decisions. To decide to act in a certain way is to privilege that pathway of action above all others.

Now, it's a value judgment. That's a moral decision. part of what the biblical library is trying to investigate is what is it that should be put in the highest place I mean you could argue nothing you could argue that there's a plethora of goods with no fundamental union that's not the monotheistic hypothesis the monotheistic hypothesis is that all value culminates in an ultimate value and that speaks of something like an underlying unity

to being and to be coming. You know, you sound a lot like Jordan Peterson. Has anyone ever told you that? Yes, it's very sad. It's uncanny. It's uncanny. Just now. Everything you said, I said, that's exactly like Jordan Peterson. And if you weren't Jordan Peterson, it would be strange. Do you ever find it funny that you're talking about morality, which on some level is extremely basic, right? Sacrifice, do good, don't be a narcissistic jerk. I mean, all of these things, we've fallen into a place in Western culture where this is big news. This is shocking information. And it's part of the reason why so many people are flocking to see you and to hear you and to read your books, because we haven't been getting

this message. We're at a point where the obvious needs to be explained. Now, last night, I found it particularly fascinating when you were talking about the Advent in 1961. I don't think you gave the date, but of the pill. Talk a little bit about that, because that seems to me to be a way of framing this trend. Well, it's easy to think of the pill primarily as a technological accomplishment. Right. But there is no technological accomplishment independent of its moral frame, because all technologies have a purpose, and anything that has a purpose is in the domain of moral aim.

but essentially by definition. So what's the ethos of the pill? Well, in its best manifestation, it would be the allowance for people who are in committed relationships to determine when they're going to have children so that their children can have the best chance to survive and to thrive. But that's only one part of the ethos, because the other part is pleasure without responsibility and that you might say well that's fine but you see we don't know if that's fine and it my sense is it's not fine at all generally speaking pleasure without responsibility isn't fine it's impulsive

immature and hedonistic and the reason that's not good is because it can't sustain itself productively across time things that sustain themselves productively across time tend to be though paths of action that requires sacrifice, delay of gratification, prioritization of the community, prioritization of the future, and that's not commensurate with a hedonistic orientation. Does the pill produce a tilt towards a radical hedonism? Well, obviously, like, I don't think that's the least bit contentious. How dangerous is that?

We don't know. It might be fatal. But we're seeing now, for the first time, and I think this explains your popularity, that things have been slowly falling apart, but suddenly here we are, and we're living in a world of moral chaos. It is the result, at least in part, of the pill,

of the sexual revolution, mostly of the sexual revolution. But those two things are really inseparable, right? You wouldn't have had the pill without a sexual revolution and vice versa. Okay, hang on. You said this last night, and I wished I'd been on the stage in Constantine's place,

because I wanted to ask you about it, and now I get to do that. You were talking about how before we could have the pill, before we could have people trying to create such a thing as the birth control pill, we had to have, in a sense, the moral foundation or the crumbling of the moral foundation to lead to that.

What was that? In other words, it's not clear to me because I see that the pill more led to that than that those things led to the pill. What are the antecedents in the field? 50s and the 40s that you believe led to that moment? Because I don't quite see it. When I think of the Eisenhower 50s, I don't think of a world longing for the technology. Well, the 50s were more revolutionary than people understand. Like the 60s, in some sense, were the full manifestation of what

started in the 1950s. And you had a consumer-oriented society, and that was driven by like capitalist marketing to a large degree. And I'm not precisely complaining about that. But the groundwork for... Was the downside of the free market? Yeah, well, the downside of the free market is the appeal to immediate gratification. And why is that a downside? Well, because what gratifies you immediately is not necessarily good for the community or for the long run. That's technically the reason. I mean, the reason two-year-olds can't survive on their own or in groups

is because they're too oriented to the moment and not sufficiently oriented to the community or the future. That's technically the problem. And so you have to substitute for that short-term hedonistic orientation, something that has a much broader purview. But I mean, what I don't often find fiscal conservatives talking about, people who are fans of the free market, they don't talk about the fact, the inescapable fact, that it's the same as when the American founders talked about self-futable.

government. You have to have a moral and virtuous citizenry, or they will simply elect Hitler or Stalin or some other monster. In the free market, it will simply give you, if you are not yourself reasonably virtuous, it will simply give you what you ask for, so we'll get better, cheaper, pornography, and drugs. So the free market is neutral. It's a wonderful thing, but unless you have a virtuous moral population, it leads to wicked. thing. I have a great story to tell you about our friends at Americans for Prosperity. Here's what they just did.

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Neutrametics.com use the code Eric for 15% off. Again, Nutrametics, N-U-T-R-A-M-D-X.com. Nutrametics.com use the code Eric for 15%. percent off. Folks, welcome back to my conversation with Jordan Peterson. In the ultimate case, the free market becomes the pool of narcissists, right? Because it offers you what you want instantly. And cell phones are a very good example of that because they're better and better,

and they'll get unbelievably good at this in figuring out what will maximally attract your attention in the short term. And they'll do that not only by assessing your patterns of attention, your purchasing habits and so on so that they can predict what else it is that would hook you to your screen, but also offer you what you want, what the impulsive part of you wants now, but they'll develop very rapidly to the point

where they're actually tracking your eye movements, for example, and that's a very good index of where you're attending. And we'll be able to predict with increasingly stunning accuracy exactly what it is that can be offered to you to keep you on the platform. It sounds like a nightmare. Well, it's already a nightmare to some degree. I mean, it is a weird nightmare, and you pointed that out already.

It's like, well, what's the nightmare of being offered exactly what you want when you want it all the time? Well, in some ways, that's the nightmare of cocaine. I mean, cocaine is a... Cocaine activates the same neural pathways that are activated when you're doing something worthwhile. That's what cocaine does. Well, what's wrong with that? Well, if you obtain that without actually doing something worthwhile, it's not only radically false,

but it's radically counterproductive in that it can't sustain itself. And so a descent into the pool of narcissus, narcissus is a society that can't, it lacks the moral virtues that you describe, that enable even a technologically complex society to survive. Well, I mean, this is where we have to get to, you know, the definition of who are we, what is man, and then later I want to get to the idea of who is God,

or at least as you see it. But the question, if you have a kind of lefty, Russoian, utopianist view of humanity, you think that we're not fallen, and therefore you don't worry about the things that we're talking about. Well, as you said, that also is a flaw on the libertarian side. You know, the libertarians might say, well, you can allow,

people to engage in cooperation and competition in relationship to what they want and the system will balance itself optimally without governance, let's say. But the flaw in that reasoning is who is this you that wants? Like, why is

it, this is something that's very germane to our current society. People now identify themselves with their wants. So that means what they do is they identify themselves with something that possesses them that they think is them. So, for example, if your identity is sexual, well, then what you've done is reduced who you are to the sexual impulse, which essentially means that the sexual impulse is now elevated to the status

of God. And you're less than fully human. Well, who you are is a very complicated problem. part of who you are is what the impulses within you want right now. But that's kind of an immature and dangerous part of you, and it isn't obvious at all that you want that to get the upper hand. Then there's the you that makes itself manifest communally. So, for example, if you're a father with a family of children, then who you are is the sacrifice of that whim-predicated individuality to the long-term stability of wife and family

and the inculcation of virtue in the children. That's a much different concept of what constitutes you. And we've been sold, even by the capitalists, let's say, we've been sold this idea that you're best summed up by your desires. And that's a very low estimation. of what it means to be human. And fundamentally, it's empty. That's why people find it meaningless.

Isn't this what, I mean, didn't Freud get us here? I'm, the idea that at the heart of everything is the libido, which I think is complete nonsense. I mean, to define people that way, but he did that. It wasn't just Freud. The evolutionary biologists did it too. No, I know, but I'm saying it affected the last 100 years. So here's one way of thinking about it, that I think is very useful.

when what unites at the highest level disintegrates, so that's the death of God, let's say, you immediately get two competing deities. You get hedonism, you get sex, and you get power. And so Freud, Darwin, the evolutionary biologists, all those who believe that we can be reduced in some ways to the reproductive impulse, Richard Dawkins would fall into that camp.

sex is there's no difference between the human being and the sexual impulse okay well so you have that side of it but then you have the power mongers like monger's like Marx and foucault the postmodernists who say well no the fundamental

drive is domination right I'm I'm maneuvering whether I know it or not constantly to get my way with force and compulsion now those two things dance, right? You get a, because of course,

basically the reason you want power is to gratify your hedonistic whims. Like, what else is it good for, fundamentally? Those two things dance evilly. In the book of Revelation, you have a symbol of the end of time. And the symbol is this multi-headed scarlet beast

with the whore of Babylon on its back. Okay, so the scarlet beast is blood-colored, and the heads are male. And so the scarlet beast is the degeneration of masculinity. So non-degenerate masculinity is unified. When it fragments, it has many heads. It starts to turn into hydra.

It's pointing in all sorts of different directions. That's the scarlet beast of the patriarchal state. Okay, what's on its back? Degenerate femininity. Well, obviously, when things degenerate, you have the degeneration of what's masculine, and you have the degeneration of what's feminine, and they work in concert. You might have heard Mike Lindell and My Pillo no longer have the support of their box stores or shopping channels the way they used to.

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800-9778305-7 promo-code Eric or go to mypillow.com and use promo code Eric. Welcome back. We continue my conversation with Jordan Peterson. Well, when the masculine degenerates, it's going in many directions at once in a manner that will lead to bloodshed. That's the scarlet beast. And what it offers as it degenerates is hedonistic self-gratification and the commodification of female sexuality. Well, that's exactly. That's happening everywhere. Now, what happens in the revelation story is the scarlet beast kills the prostitute.

And with regard to the pill, we talked about the pill. So the pill offered the whole sexual revolution, offered endless sexual gratification. Okay, so what's happening now? Well, I think it's 30% of Japanese under 30 are virgins. It's something like that. It's about the same level in Korea. That's where we're headed. People don't have relationships.

the people who have the most sex are married religious people. Well, I mean, we can put sex to the side. What about marriage? That's interesting that in a country as traditional as Japan, you would have things devolved to where family is not central. That's interesting to me. Yeah, well, it's happening all over the world, and part of that happening is the absolute catastrophic plummeting of birth rate.

And if you looked at that through a religious lens, that's very straightforward. any society that doesn't prioritize the virgin and child dies. The virgin and the child. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The maiden, the mother and the child. Yeah. Like, what's the proper image of femininity?

Well, one image is the whore of Babylon. That's like disinhibited female sexuality, right? That's the sex pot. And certainly, that's the Playboy Bunny. That's the penthouse model. That's the only fan's hooker, you know? And there's an undeniable attrition. to that, which is pure immediate sexual gratification.

But, and then you might say, well, what's the alternative vision? Well, the alternative vision for femininity isn't singular. It's mother and child. It's mother and infant. And speaking psychologically, the reason that that's a sacred image is because a society that doesn't have that image at its foundation, doesn't value that above all else, or virtually all else, is fatally impaired. Well, obviously, because it can't even propagate itself.

I mean, you talk about the practicality of obeying the moral order, that it's what works, and if we don't, things fall apart. Can we have morality without God? I mean, I would say that we couldn't, but it seems that you somehow are making a case for moral order, but I'm not clear where God is in that. Either at the apex or at the foundation, depending on the metaphor you use. So the more fundamental, the moral injunction, the more sacred it is,

and the closer it gets to what constitutes God by definition. The religious enterprise is in the depths of the moral enterprise. It's a matter of definition in some ways. is that there are moral injunctions upon which many other moral injunctions depend. They're in a hierarchical relationship. I'll give you an example. So there's a story in the Gospels where a lawyer, I think it's a lawyer, might be a scribe, basically an academic or a Pharisee,

which is a religious hypocrite, tries to trap Christ. Not necessarily, to be clear. There were good Pharisees, but we now... The Pharisees are religious hypocrites. They're not Pharisees. not in any fundamental sense. They're religious hypocrites. They're people who use the religious enterprise

for their own self-aggrandizement, and they're the fundamental enemy of Christ in the gospel. But I'm saying, but there were Pharisees who didn't behave the way we think of Pharisees. There was Nicodemus and others who were actually good, but as a whole, yes,

they were guilty of behaving like what we call Pharisees. Yeah, yeah. Well, the Pharisees play the role of religious hypocrites in the gospel story, and so that's rough, hard on them. So there's a story about a lawyer? Yeah, yeah. So they're trying to trap Christ into saying something heretical

so they can get rid of him because he's so annoying. And so they ask him what the greatest commandment is. Now, the reason they ask him that, they're like crooked journalists. They're laying a trap. The idea is there's nothing you can say that won't convict you. Right? Because no matter what commandment Christ picks,

he downplays the other nine, and so they can get him on the charge of, heresy and have arrested. That's the game. And the other game is that scribe or Pharisee or lawyer will be the one whose entrapment of Christ redounds to their moral virtue and elevates their relative status. That's the game crooked journalists play when they try to destroy someone's reputation to gain slightly in relationship to their public appearance. And that's a very common game for narcissistic journalists. All journalists aren't narcissistic, but there are plenty of them that are, and that's their game. Well, Christ converts that game. He steps outside the question,

and he says that all 10 commandments are the manifestation of a more fundamental commandment, the Great Commandment, which is something like, love God with all your heart, which means to commit to the highest aim that makes itself manifest to you. and to love other people as if they're yourself. And there's a dynamism. So the first part of that is orient yourself upwards so that your motivation in your actions and your words is to lay out and describe the pathway

to the highest possible level of moral accomplishment. And then the next is to extend that horizontally and to make the assumption that every person that you're talking to is equally and implicitly of divine virtue. It's something like that. And Christ's proclamation is that all ten commandments stem from that meta-commandment. Well, so imagine that there's a hundred rules,

and those rules are derived from ten commandments, and those commandments are derived from two principles. And then imagine there's something underneath that principle that's one thing. That's God, by definition. Now, in the Christian conception of things, that God is represented in multiple ways, but one of the ways that that unifying principle is represented is as the principle of voluntary exposure to pain, betrayal, death, and malevolence. Right. So the hoisting of the cross, the voluntary.

hoisting of the cross is assimilated to the unifying spirit. And the claim there is that the willingness to bear the entire existential burden of life voluntarily is the same as the spirit that creates order at the beginning of time. It's a set of propositions. There's a hierarchical relationship. There's something at the bottom or the top, like I said, depending on the metaphor. The thing that's at the bottom is by definition, God. Now, the monotheistic hypothesis is that the thing at the bottom is one thing, that there's a fundamental unity. Now, there doesn't have to be, hypothetically, there could be a plurality. But the cost of a plurality is confusion. Welcome back. We continue my conversation with Jordan Peterson. The way Christians say Trinity,

you don't mean Trinity as that kind of plurality. Well, the Trinitarian concept is, is a reflection of the fact that it's difficult, that it's necessary to develop an understanding of the most fundamental principle. It's necessary to characterize it in multiple ways. Let me give an example of that. That's not exactly Trinitarian. So what you see in the biblical stories is a series of characterizations of God and man. And each characterization, so that would be each story, sheds a different light on God and man. And with the insistence that under that multiplicity of characterization is a unity.

Okay, so here's some examples. So in Genesis 1, God is the spirit that generates the habitable order that is good or very good out of chaos and possibility. Okay, so that's what you do when you organize your family. There's a domain of possibility, and you grapple with that, and you shape it into something that's good.

And you do that insofar as you're acting in the... If you do that properly, insofar as you're acting as the proper image of God. So that's the proclamation in Genesis 1. Just slightly after that, God is characterized as the spirit that punishes prideful presumption. Right. So you say, well, do you believe in that spirit?

It's like, well, how often have you got knocked flat because of your prideful presumption? Well, I mean, but couldn't one argue that that is simply the structure of things? That's reality. But there needn't be a God behind it. Of course, I believe there is. But, you know, actions have consequences. There are plenty of people who believe that, practically speaking. They see it.

But they don't necessarily acknowledge that there's a personal God behind it. Well, that is the question. The question is, is your ultimate relationship with being actually a relationship? Right? Well, that's a very complicated, that's actually a very complicated question, even, let's say, scientifically. I mean, we're organized at the highest level of analysis as a personality. We exist in relationship to the world. We evolved to exist in relationship to the world.

Does that mean that the world is best construed as a place of relationship? Does that mean that the spirit that underlies the world itself is a spirit with whom you have a relationship? It might mean that. It's certainly the case that we act as if it's the case. I'll give an example of this. So I've spoken with many atheists and many rationalist atheists. And the thing that's very interesting about rationalist atheists is that they're annoyed at God. They're not just rationalist atheists.

It's not like they're neutral about God. Now, they often have a reason. The reason very often is that they were hurt by religious hypocrites. So not only are they maybe a little bit on the thing interest orientation side of the scale, so they tend to look at the world as if it's mechanical rather than existing in relationship, but they're also hurt. They're hurt by the religious hypocrites, and they're angry at God. I mean, I talked to Stephen Fry.

This was very notable in Stephen Fry. He got quite agitated when he was talking about bone cancer and children. Oh, he always goes there. Yeah, he goes there. Well, he's morally outraged. And he seems outraged. And you think, sir, this makes no sense. If there is no God, why would you be outraged?

Why, on some level, you could even argue, from where do you get any sense of justice or right or wrong? You know, if we evolved out of the primals. By accident, what are you? even told what are you complaining about on what grounds are you outraged yeah yes that's well i mean i guess he would he would answer that you know if if and he says he's not but he's saying if you or i or anyone else is positing this loving god this omnipotent god then to him it is offensive that that god would allow these things and he still doesn't get take it personally