The Eric Metaxas Show - Jordan Peterson (Encore)

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Renowned psychologist Jordan Peterson joins Eric to discuss several important topics including masculinity and theology. 

Have you checked your bucket list lately? Are you ready to take care of item number seven? Listening to the Eric Mattaxas show? Well, welcome, tune in, and then move on to item number eight, skydiving with Chuck Schumer and AOC. Here now is Mr. Completed My Bucket List at age 12, Eric Mattaxas. Hey there, folks. It is Wednesday in Miami. I'm in Miami, Florida.

Chris Himes, your people are from Miami. Your Cubano people are from Miami. But you are now in the New York area. Is that right? Yes, that's our dad, signor. It's bad, yes. Very good. Yeah, I have a lot of family down there.

My grandmother lived there for many, many years. She lived 103, I think. Passed away last year. But, yeah, lots of memories going down there, summer camp and seeing cousins. They do a crazy New Year's. Eve, you know, kind of Christmas Eve type thing where they roast a pig. And then on New Year's Eve, they'll shoot guns off in the air. I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, so seriously, I'm in Miami. Why am I in Miami, you ask?

Well, I'll tell you, I'm in Miami because for the last three days, today included, I am filming a course for Jordan Peter. Peterson's Peterson Academy. It won't be out for, I don't know, a few weeks, but it's about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And it is really an extraordinary experience for me to get to go in depth, to get to go hour after hour. There is so much to his story. Obviously, the film barely scratches the surface. It's a two-hour film. And so that's why I'm here. And I should say, today, we're going to be. We're going to be a two-hour film. And so, we're going to be a lot of, but. We're going to re-air my conversation from a couple of months ago with Jordan Peterson himself. Don't let the Canadian accent throw you. It's perfectly authentic. And Jordan Peterson himself is also perfectly authentic. So we're going to air that today. Tomorrow, we're talking, I think, to Larry Taunton and to Jonathan, to John Zmirak. John Zmirak, not Jonathan's, Eric. Tomorrow. So anyway, lots of stuff coming up this week. But today we're re-eering my conversation with the great Jordan Peterson. And speaking about the Bonhoeffer course, it really

is wild as I've been going through my book because it's been 16 years since I wrote it and 14 years since it came out. It really is a shocking picture of where we are today in so many ways. Anybody who's read it probably already knows that. But if you want to get it for a Christmas gift, Bonhofer is going to be very big this Christmas because of the film. I recommend going to Eric Metaxus.com to my books there. The books are priced well there and the money doesn't go to communist or to the Democratic Party or to Communists or to the Democratic Party. So Ericmetaxis.com. You can also get the Conversations book.

Socrates in the City Conversations book. It's a great gift. It's a super gift. It is a super, super gift. These are some of the best conversations we've ever had at Socrates and City. I edited them and some of it is so powerful. I mean, look, it's not too much to say that lives will be changed. People read this stuff who haven't been exposed to it,

and they've never seen anything like it. And it gets them thinking about the big questions. That's the secret goal of Socrates and cities to get people thinking about the big questions, about truth, about life. And people are hungry for it. So it is a great gift for people, often particularly for people who are not thinking about the big questions.

They're just living their lives and it reaches them. So you can find all that at ericmetaxis.com, Conversations book. You can also look at Socrates in the city. And it's on Amazon too, by the way. It's everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere. This reminds me, Socrates in the city, we have an event coming up in Philadelphia, November 19th. If you can get there, folks, if you've never, especially if you've never been to Socrates in the city event, you need to come. My guest is Jonathan Pajot. I always forget to say that. that. He's kind of a big deal. We're going to be talking about the meaning of meaning and symbol, and he's really deep, but accessible. He's really cool. You can look him up, Jonathan Pajot, P-A-G, E-A-O. And we're going to be talking about that. He's a Christian. We're going to talk about, well, we're going to talk about a lot of stuff. He's, as I say, pretty deep character.

He sounds French. Is he French? He's very accessible. Well, the name is certainly French. I don't know. No, he's American. So I also want to mention, we kind of have an update on the Socrates event December 10th in New York City. It's the 25th anniversary of Socrates in the city. It's going to be a blowout. We're going to have friends from all over the country are flying in. If you want to stay at the Union League Club, we have booked a block of rooms. That's a real treat to stay at the Union League Club if you'd like to do that. But the big news is that I think I'm going to sing. I think there's going to be a band and dancing at the end of it. And I'm going to sing. I've done this before. I did it in my 50th birthday party. I've done it other times before. Kind of like a swing,

you know, like Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, dinner dancing kind of stuff. I don't know how many songs I'll sing. If you pay a lot of money, like if you bid really high, I'll sing less, you know. Wow. What about tomatoes?

Well, there'll be holiday Christmas tomatoes there that people can purchase to curl at you. It's, uh, yes, yes. And they're going to be a lot of, there's going to be a lot of tomatoes there, just like at the Roseland Ballroom, a lot of tomatoes. That sounds fantastic. So yes.

So what? So you're going to sit. How many people in the band? That sounds like a real deal situation. I don't know. I was just talking to my daughter. She's sort of arranging this. But it's going to be like, you know,

it's dinner and dancing, right? So it's a black tie event. So it's going to be a blast, a total blast. And, you know, John Smirak is going to be there. Who else is going to be there? Yomi Park. Now, by the way, my conversation with her is featured in the conversation's book. Everybody who comes to the December 10th event gets a copy.

of this conversation's book. You can pre-order it. You get 20% off if you order it before December 10th. But if you go to the event, get a ticket to the event, you get a copy of the book. And it is, you know, again, what can I say? It's a beautiful book, but the content is just extraordinary. So, yeah, so I think I'm going to sing. And that's just crazy, folks.

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We're going to Mekinos, Santorini, Crete, Volos, Thessaloniki, Gizunthi. I am so excited about this. I'm flipped out. And every single day, more people have signed up. It's like every day we get the updates. And some of the people are signing up our friends. Some of them are strangers who will become friends. We're going to have a blast.

Johns Merrick is going to be on the cruise. We've got a lot of crazy stuff. I'll probably sing on the cruise, too. Well, we'll see about that. But it's exciting. If you want to find out information, you can go to ericmetaxis.com slash cruise. Ericmetaxis.com slash cruise.

And don't forget, November 22nd, the Bonhofer film is happening. Make sure you mark your calendar to see it opening weekend. The Bonhofer film November 22nd. We'll be right back. with Jordan Peterson. Hey folks, this year I've given you so many reasons to try balance of nature, but now I've got one you cannot ignore. But let's review some of the other reasons. First, with balance of nature, you get a product made from whole fruits and veggie ingredients. Second,

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And together, let's show Wall Street what investing with biblical principles can do. Inspire Advisors, biblically responsible investing. Visit inspireadvisors.com. that's inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. Health insurance can be a burden, especially when you're young and don't visit the doctor often. Why pay for services you rarely use when there's a more affordable option?

Like only paying for what you need. For example, maybe you want help for unexpected hospitalizations, accidents, or when a sickness hits you out of nowhere. These would otherwise leave you with medical bill debt, a lot of it, which is the last thing you need while building your career or starting your family. If worrying about the unknown leaves you uneasy, it's time to take control of your health care. Christian Healthcare Ministries, CHM, offers a budget-friendly, faith-based alternative to traditional insurance.

With programs starting under $100 per month, with CHM you can enjoy affordable health care and peace of mind, while focusing on what truly matters, whether that's growing your business or spending time with your family. Visit CHministries.org slash value to enroll today and experience a better way to have health care costs that c h ministries.org slash value welcome to the program folks i have a particularly special guest with me today oh no it's it's just jordan peterson jordan welcome thank you sir um you're one of those people that uh i don't know where to begin with you because you're large you're vast you contain multitudes we can talk about so many different things can we start with something banal and specific?

You're from Canada? Just true or false. Just true or false. It's almost nothing. More banal or something than that. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, I don't know. Yes, I'm from Canada. Yes, you're from Canada. But here you are in America. I know. Are you here, are you doing something like a tour or anything?

I'm on a 51 city tour through the U.S. and down into Central America and South America. Wow. Yeah. So that ends in June. We're about halfway through it at the moment. Yes, you're going to be in Wallingford, Connecticut. Because my brother lives in Wallingford. Yesterday, of course, just yesterday, you were in Radio City Music Hall.

It was, it's amazing on a number of levels. That is just one of the iconic spaces in the world. Yeah. And the idea that you, Jordan Peterson, have risen to a level where you stand on a stage and talk, and, you know, about 6,000 people show up to hear you. Yeah. Color me impressed. Yeah, it's very strange.

Isn't it amazing? It's wonderful. Yes, and if you have any sense in my position, you understand how remarkable that is, and you're very grateful for it. Yeah, yeah. It's just absolutely unlikely. It's very unlikely. Well, first of all, as you pointed out, I'm Canadian.

So just that in itself. Yeah, we don't like that. Other than William Shatner, we just were not interested in Canadians. No, but, well, again, there's so much to say. Let's just start with that. last night, Pact House, Radio City, and

the title of the tour is the we who wrestle with God tour. Part of the conversation, part of your lecture, and then the subsequent conversation with Constantine has to do with

the question of who is God. And you seem often, you seemed to me, in the course, of things to define God for me, a Christian, somewhat oddly, not really oddly, but somewhat oddly, because you're coming from the perspective of a Jungian analyst. And so I thought, why don't we just start there when the title of the tour is we who wrestle with God? That's what the name Israel means. We who wrestle with God. I think I knew that. Israel's. Israel is the chosen people of God,

and that implies that those who wrestle with God are his chosen people. And you might say, well, what does that mean? And to wrestle with God... I might say what does that mean? For example, right now, I will say it. What does that mean? Well, it means that we have to make moral decisions. Right? And in ignorance. And so that's always

a wrestling. It's always difficult. Conflicts of duty, well, the choice between good and evil, that's obviously one form of wrestling, but the choice between various goods. It's often the case that the most serious conflicts that we have in our life are choices between positive options, for example. It's always a wrestling. It's difficult.

And life is that wrestling. And it is that because there's not really much difference between moral decisions and decisions. To decide to act in a certain way is to privilege that pathway of action above all others. That's a value judgment. That's a moral decision. Part of what the biblical library is trying to investigate

is what is it that should be put in the highest place. I mean, you could argue nothing. You could argue that there's a plethora of goods with no fundamental union. That's not the monotheistic hypothesis. The monotheistic hypothesis is that all value culminates in an ultimate value. And that speaks of something like an underlying unity to being and to becoming. You know, you sound a lot like Jordan Peterson. Has anyone ever told you that?

Yes, it's very sad. It's uncanny. It's uncanny. Just now. Everything you said, I said, that's exactly like Jordan Peterson. And if you weren't Jordan Peterson, it would be strange. Do you ever find it funny that you're talking about morality, which on some level is extremely basic, right? Sacrifice. Do good. Don't be a narcissistic jerk. I mean, all of these things, we've fallen into a place in Western culture where this is big news. This is shocking information. And it's part of the reason why so many people are flocking to see you and to hear you and to read your books because we haven't been getting this message. We're at a point where the obvious needs to be explained. Now, last night, I found it particularly fascinating when you were talking about the advent in 1961, I don't think you gave the date, but of the pill.

Talk a little bit about that, because that seems to me to be a way of framing this trend. It's easy to think of the pill primarily as a technological accomplishment. Right. But there is no technological accomplishment independent of its moral frame because all technologies have a purpose, and anything that has a purpose is in the domain of moral aim, essentially by definition. So what's the ethos of the pill? Well, in its best manifestation, it would be the allowance for people who are in committed relationships

to determine when they're going to have children so that their children can have the best chance to survive and to throw. But that's only one part of the ethos because the other part is pleasure without responsibility. And you might say, well, that's fine. But you see, we don't know if that's fine. And my sense is it's not fine at all. Generally speaking, pleasure without responsibility isn't fine. It's impulsive, immature and hedonistic. And the reason that's not good is because it can't sustain itself productively across time.

things that sustain themselves productively across time tend to be those paths of action that require sacrifice, delay of gratification, prioritization of the community, prioritization of the future, and that's not commensurate with a hedonistic orientation. Does the pill produce a tilt towards a radical hedonism? Well, obviously, like, I don't think that's the least bit contentious.

How dangerous is that? we don't know. Although we're seeing now, but we're seeing now for the first time, and I think this explains your popularity, that things have been slowly falling apart, but suddenly here we are, and we're living in a world of moral chaos. It is the result, at least in part, of the pill,

of the sexual revolution, mostly of the sexual revolution. But those two things are really inseparable, right? Yeah. You wouldn't have had the pill without a sexual revolution, and vice versa. Okay, hang on. You said this last night, and I wished I'd been on the stage in Constantine's place because I wanted to ask you about it, and now I get to do that.

You were talking about how before we could have the pill, before we could have people trying to create such a thing as the birth control pill, we had to have, in a sense, the moral foundation or the crumbling of the moral foundation to lead to that. What was that? In other words, it's not clear to me because I see that the pill more, led to that than that those things led to the pill? What are the antecedents in the 50s and the 40s

that you believe led to that moment? Because I don't quite see it. When I think of the Eisenhower 50s, I don't think of a world longing for the technology. Well, the 50s were more revolutionary than people understand. Like the 60s, in some sense, were the full manifestation of what started in the 1950s.

And you had a consumer-oriented society, and that was driven by, like, capitalist marketing to a large degree. and I'm not precisely complaining about that, but the groundwork for... Well, it's the downside of the free market. Yeah, well, the downside of the free market is the appeal to immediate gratification.

And why is that a downside? Well, because what gratifies you immediately is not necessarily good for the community or for the long run. That's technically the reason. I mean, the reason two-year-olds can't survive on their own or in groups is because they're...

too oriented to the moment and not sufficiently oriented to the community or the future. That's technically the problem. And so you have to substitute for that short-term hedonistic orientation, something that has a much broader purview. But, I mean, what I often, what I don't often find fiscal conservatives talking about, people who are fans of the free market, they don't talk about the fact, the inescapable fact, that, It's the same as when the American founders talked about self-government. You have to have a moral and virtuous citizenry, or they will simply elect Hitler or Stalin or some other monster.

In the free market, it will simply give you, if you are not yourself reasonably virtuous, it will simply give you what you ask for, so we'll get better, cheaper, pornography, and drugs. So the free market is neutral. It's a wonderful thing, but unless you have a virtuous moral population, it leads to wicked thing. I have a great story to tell you about our friends at Americans for Prosperity.

Here's what they just did. They bought the bidonomics.com website name from under Joe Biden's nose. That's like Pepsi buying Coca-Cola.com. Do yourself a favor and visit bidonomics.com. Portions of the Eric Mattaxas show are brought to you in part by Americans for Prosperity. Hey, this is Eric Metrametics. For years, I've told you about Nutrametics, a professional supplement brand trusted by doctors since 1993. Nutrametics offers a variety of health bundles. Whether you want to support your immune system, improve your sleep, promote joint comfort or detoxification support, Neutrametics has a health bundle right for you. The best part about Neutrametics, every year they donate a minimum of 50% of their profits to Christian charities and missions.

That's right, 50% of their profits. Neutrametics has a goal of surpassing 100 million in giving. by 2030. Many of you take supplements already. Switch to Nutrametics. It's the highest quality, and they donate 50% of their profits. Get 15% off by using the code Eric during checkout. Go to Nutrametics.com and search health bundles, support your health while helping others in need. Go to Nutrametics. That's N-U-T-R-A-M-E-D-I-X.com. Newtrametics.com, use the code Eric for 15% off. Again, Nutrametics, N-U-T-R-A-M-D-I-X.com. Nutrametics.com, use the code.com.com. Eric for 15% off. Hey folks, the story of My Pillow is a testament to faith and transformation.

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like a tough medical diagnosis or the loss of a loved one. Through it all, having reliable, compassionate health care makes a difference. If your current health insurance dictate your choices, maybe it's time for a change. Christian Healthcare Ministries, CHM, lets you take control. of your health care. With no provider network and the flexibility to join any time, you decide what works best for you and your family. Whether you're navigating diapers, prepping your kids for school, or planning for an early retirement, CHM's affordable faith-based programs are designed to support

you through all of life's ups and downs. Take charge today. Visit chmministries.org slash total to enroll and experience health care that moves with you through every season of life, the highs and the lows. That's CHMinist. Health insurance can be a burden, especially when you're young and don't visit the doctor often. Why pay for services you rarely use when there's a more affordable option, like only paying for what you need? For example, maybe you want help for unexpected hospitalizations, accidents, or when a sickness hits you out of nowhere.

These would otherwise leave you with medical bill debt, a lot of it, which is the last thing you need while building your career or starting your family. If worrying about the unknown leaves you uneasy, it's time. to take control of your health care. Christian Healthcare Ministries, CHM, offers a budget-friendly, faith-based alternative to traditional insurance, with programs starting under $100 per month. With CHM, you can enjoy affordable health care and peace of mind while focusing on what truly matters, whether that's growing your business or spending time with your family.

Visit chmistries.org slash value to enroll today and experience a better way to handle health care costs. That's c.hministries.org slash value. Welcome back to my conversation with Jordan Peterson. In the ultimate case, the free market becomes the pool of narcissists, right, because it offers you what you want instantly, and cell phones are a very good example of that, because they're better and better, and they'll get unbelievably good at this, in figuring out what will maximally attract your attention in the short term. And they'll do that not only by, assessing your patterns of attention, your purchasing habits and so on,

so that they can predict what else it is that would hook you to your screen, but also offer you what you want, what the impulsive part of you wants now. But they'll develop very rapidly to the point where they're actually tracking your eye movements, for example, and that's a very good index of where you're attending. And we'll be able to predict with increasingly stunning accuracy exactly what it is that can be offered to you to keep you on the platform. This sounds like a nightmare. Well, it's already a nightmare to some degree.

I mean, it is a weird nightmare, and you pointed that out already, it's like, what's the nightmare of being offered exactly what you want when you want it all the time? Well, in some ways, that's the nightmare of cocaine. I mean, cocaine is a... Cocaine activates the same neural pathways that are activated when you're doing something worthwhile. that's what cocaine does.

Well, what's wrong with that? Well, if you obtain that without actually doing something worthwhile, it's radically, it's not only radically false, but it's radically counterproductive in that it can't sustain itself. And so a descent into the pool of narcissus, narcissus is a society that can't, it lacks the moral virtues that you describe, that enable even a technologically complex society

to survive. Well, I mean, this is where we have to get to, you know, the definition of who are we, what is man, and then later I want to get to the idea of who is God, or at least as you see it. But the question, if you have a kind of lefty, Russoian, utopianist view of humanity, you think that we're not fallen, and therefore you don't worry about the things that we're talking about. Well, as you said, that also is a flaw on the libertarian side. You know, the libertarians might say, well, you can allow people to engage in cooperation and competition in relationship to what they want, and the system will balance itself optimally without governance, let's say. But the flaw in that reasoning is, who is this you that wants?

Like, why is it, this is something that's very germane to our current society. people now identify themselves with their wants. So that means what they do is they identify themselves with something that possesses them, that they think is them. So, for example, if your identity is sexual, well, then what you've done is reduced who you are to the sexual impulse, which essentially means that the sexual impulse is now elevated to the status of God. And you're less than fully human.

Well, who you are is a very common. complicated problem. Part of who you are is what the impulses within you want right now. But that's kind of an immature and dangerous part of you, and it isn't obvious at all that you want that to get the upper hand. Then there's the you that makes itself manifest communally. So, for example, if you're a father with a family of children, then who you are is the sacrifice of that whim-predicated individuality to the long-term stability of wife and family and the inculcation of virtue in the children. That's a much different concept of what constitutes you. And we've been sold, even by the capitalists, let's say, we've been sold this idea that you're best summed up by your

desires. And that's a very low, that's a very low, that's a very, very low estimation of what it means to be human, and fundamentally, it's empty. That's why people find it meaningless. That's why... Is this what, I mean, didn't Freud get us here? I'm, I'm, the idea that at the heart of everything is the libido, the, which I think is complete nonsense. I mean, to define people that way, but he did that. It wasn't just Freud. The evolutionary biologists did it, too. it affected the last 100 years. So here's one way of thinking about it, that I think is very useful.

When what unites at the highest level disintegrates, so that's the death of God, let's say, you immediately get two competing deities. You get hedonism, you get sex, and you get power. And so Freud, Darwin, the evolutionary biologists, all those who believe that we can be reduced in some ways to the reproductive impulse. Richard Dawkins would fall into that camp.

Sex is, there's no difference between the human being and the sexual impulse. Okay, well, so you have that side of it, but then you have the power mongers like, mongerers like Marx and Foucault, the postmodernists who say, well, no. The fundamental drive is domination, right? I'm maneuvering, whether I know it or not,

constantly to get my way with force and compulsion. Now, those two things dance, right? You get a... Because, of course, basically, the reason you want power is to gratify your hedonistic whims. Like, what else is it good for, fundamentally? Those two things dance evilly. In the book of Revelation,

you have a symbol of the end of time. And the symbol is this multi-headed scarlet beast with the whore of Babylon on its back. Okay, so the scarlet beast is blood-colored, and the heads are male. And so the scarlet beast is the degeneration of masculinity. So non-degenerate masculinity is unified. When it fragments, it has many heads. It starts to turn into hydra.

It's pointing in all sorts of different directions. That's the scarlet beast of the patriarchal state. Okay, what's on its back? Degenerate femininity. Well, obviously when things degenerate, you have the degeneration of what's masculine, you have the degeneration of what's feminine, and they work in concert. Life is full of moments big and small. From your baby's first steps to their high school graduation, from cheering on grandkids at games

to caring for elderly parents. There are joyful milestones, but also challenges, like a tough medical diagnosis or the loss of a loved one. Through it all, having reliable, compassionate health care makes a difference. If your current health insurance dictate your choices, maybe it's time for a change. Christian Healthcare Ministries, CHM, lets you take control of your health care. With no provider network and the flexibility to join any time, you decide what works best for you and your family. Whether you're navigating diapers, prepping your kids for school, or planning for an early retirement,

CHM's affordable faith-based programs are designed to support you through all of life's ups and downs. Take charge today. Visit CHministries.org slash total to enroll and experience health care that moves with you through every season of life, the highs and the lows. That's c.hministries.org slash total. Health insurance can be a burden, especially when you're young and don't visit the doctor often. Why pay for services you rarely use when there's a more affordable option, like only paying for what you need?

For example, maybe you want help for unexpected hospitalizations, accidents, or when a sickness hits you out of nowhere. These would otherwise leave you with medical bill debt. a lot of it, which is the last thing you need while building your career or starting your family. If worrying about the unknown leaves you uneasy, it's time to take control of your health care. Christian Healthcare Ministries, CHM, offers a budget-friendly, faith-based alternative to traditional insurance. With programs starting under $100 per month. With CHM, you can enjoy affordable health care and peace of mind while focusing on what truly matters, whether that's growing your business or spending time with your family.

Visit ch ministries.org slash value to enroll today and experience a better way to handle health care costs. That's ch ministries.org slash value. We'll back. We continue my conversation with Jordan Peterson. Well, when the masculine degenerates, it's going in many directions at once in a manner that will lead to bloodshed. That's the scarlet beast. And what it offers as it degenerates is hedonistic self-gratification and the commodification of female sexuality. Well, that's exactly, that's happening everywhere. Now, what happens in the Revelation story is the scarlet beast kills the prostitute.

And with regard to the pill, we talked about the pill. So the pill offered the whole sexual revolution, offered endless sexual gratification. Okay, so what's happening? Now, well, I think it's 30% of Japanese under 30 are virgins. It's something like that. It's about the same level in Korea. that's where we're headed. People don't have relationships.

The people who have the most sex are married religious people. Well, I mean, we can put sex to the side. What about marriage? That's interesting that in a country as traditional as Japan, you would have things devolved to where family is not central. That's interesting to me. Yeah, well, it's happening all over the world, and part of that happening is the absolute catastrophic plummeting of birth rate.

And if you looked at that through a religious lens, that's very straightforward. Any society that doesn't prioritize the virgin and child dies. The virgin and the child. Yeah, yeah. The maiden, the mother and the child. Like, what's the proper image of femininity? Well, one image is the whore of Babylon.

That's like disinhibited female sexuality, right? That's the sex pot. And certainly, that's the Playboy Bunny. That's the penthouse model. That's the only fans hooker, you know? and there's an undeniable attraction to that, which is pure immediate sexual gratification. But, and then you might say, well, what's the alternative vision?

Well, the alternative vision for femininity isn't singular. It's mother and child. It's mother and infant. And speaking psychologically, the reason that that's a sacred image is because a society that doesn't have that image at its foundation, doesn't value that above all else, or virtually all else, is fatally impaired. Well, obviously, because it can't even propagate itself.

I mean, you talk about the practicality of obeying the moral order, that it's what works, and if we don't, things fall apart. Can we have morality without God? I mean, I would say that we couldn't, but it seems that you somehow are making a case for a moral order, But I'm not clear where God is in that. Either at the apex or at the foundation, depending on the metaphor you use. So the more fundamental, the moral injunction, the more sacred it is,

and the closer it gets to what constitutes God by definition. The religious enterprise is in the depths of the moral enterprise. It's a matter of definition in some ways. is that there are moral injunctions upon which many other moral injunctions depend. They're in a hierarchical relationship. I'll give you an example. So there's a story in the Gospels where a lawyer, I think it's a lawyer, might be a scribe, basically an academic or a Pharisee, which is a religious hypocrite,

tries to trap Christ. Not necessarily, to be clear. There were good Pharisees, but we now... The Pharisees are religious hypocrites. They're not Pharisees. not in any fundamental sense. They're religious hypocrites. They're people who use the religious enterprise

for their own self-aggrandizement, and they're the fundamental enemy of Christ in the gospel. But I'm saying, but there were Pharisees who didn't behave the way we think of Pharisees. There was Nicodemus and others who were actually good, but as a whole, yes, they were guilty of behaving like what we call Pharisees. Yeah, yeah.

Well, the Pharisees play the role of religious hypocrites in the gospel story, and so that's rough, hard on them. So there's a story about a lawyer? Yeah, yeah. So they're trying to trap Christ into saying something heretical so they can get rid of him because he's so annoying. And so they ask him what the greatest commandment is. Now, the reason they ask him that,

they're like crooked journalists. They're laying a trap. The idea is there's nothing you can say that won't convict you. Right? Because no matter what commandment Christ picks, he downplays the other nine, and so they can get him on charge of heroin. heresy and have them arrested. That's the game. And the other game is that scribe or Pharisee or

lawyer will be the one whose entrapment of Christ redounds to their moral virtue and elevates their relative status. That's the game crooked journalists play when they try to destroy someone's reputation to gain slightly in relationship to their public appearance. And that's a very common game for narcissistic journalists. All journalists aren't narcissistic, but there are plenty of them that are, and that's their game. Well, Christ converts that game. He steps outside the question, and he says that all ten commandments are the manifestation of a more fundamental commandment, the Great Commandment, which is something like love God with all your heart, which means to commit to the highest aim that makes itself manifest to you.

and to love other people as if they're yourself. And there's a dynamism. So the first part of that is orient yourself upwards so that your motivation in your actions and your words is to lay out and describe the pathway to the highest possible level of moral accomplishment. And then the next is to extend that horizontally and to make the assumption that every person that you're talking to

is equally and implicitly of divine virtue. It's something like that. And Christ's proclamation is that all ten commandments stem from that meta-commandment. Well, so imagine that there's a hundred rules, and those rules are derived from ten commandments, and those commandments are derived from two principles. And then imagine there's something underneath that principle

that's one thing. That's God, by definition. Now, in the Christian conception of things, that God is represented in multiple ways, but one of the ways that that unifying principle is represented is as the principle of voluntary exposure to pain, betrayal, death, and malevolence. Right. So the hoisting of the cross, the voluntary. hoisting of the cross is assimilated to the unifying spirit. And the claim there is that the willingness to bear the entire existential burden of life voluntarily is the same as the spirit that creates order at the beginning of time. It's a set of propositions. There's a hierarchical relationship. There's

something at the bottom or the top, like I said, depending on the metaphor. The thing that's at the bottom is by definition, God. Now, the monotheistic hypothesis is that the thing at the bottom is one thing, that there's a fundamental unity. Now, there doesn't have to be, hypothetically, there could be a plurality.

But the cost of a plurality is confusion. Welcome back. We continue my conversation with Jordan Peterson. The way Christians say Trinity, you don't mean Trinity as that kind of plurality. Well, the Trinitarian concept is a reflection of the fact that it's difficult,

that it's necessary to develop an understanding of the most fundamental principle. It's necessary to characterize it in multiple ways. Let me give an example of that. That's not exactly Trinitarian. So what you see in the biblical stories is a series of characterizations of God and man. And each characterization, so that would be each story,

sheds a different light on God and man. And with the insistence that under that multiplicity of characterization is a unity. Okay, so here's some examples. So in Genesis 1, God is the spirit that generates the habitable order that is good or very good out of chaos and possibility. Okay, so that's what you do when you organize your family. There's a domain of possibility, and you grab up. grapple with that and you shape it into something that's good. And you do that insofar as you're acting in the,

if you do that properly insofar as you're acting as the proper image of God. So that's the proclamation in Genesis 1. In just slightly after that, God is characterized as the spirit that punishes prideful presumption. Right. Okay. So you say, well, do you believe in that spirit? It's like, well, how often have you got knocked flat because of your prideful presumption?

Well, I mean, but couldn't one argue that that is simply the structure of things? That's reality. But there needn't be a God behind it. Of course, I believe there is. But, you know, actions have consequences. There are plenty of people who believe that. Practically speaking, they see it. But they don't necessarily acknowledge that there's a personal God behind it.

Well, that is the question. The question is, is your old. relationship with being actually a relationship, right? Well, that's a very complicated, that's actually a very complicated question, even, let's say, scientifically. I mean, we're organized at the highest level of analysis as a personality. We exist in relationship to the world. We evolved to exist in relationship to the world.

Does that mean that the world is best construed as a place of relationship? Does that mean that the spirit that underlies the world itself is a spirit with whom you have a relationship? It might mean that. It's certainly the case that we act as if it's the case. I'll give an example of this. So I've spoken with many atheists and many rationalist atheists.

And the thing that's very interesting about rationalist atheists is that they're annoyed at God. They're not just rationalist atheists. It's not like they're neutral about God. Now, they often have a reason. The reason very often is that they were hurt by religious hypocrites. So not only are they maybe a little bit on the thing interest orientation side of the scale, so they tend to look at the world as if it's mechanical rather than existing in relationship,

but they're also hurt. They're hurt by the religious hypocrites, and they're angry at God. I mean, I talked to Stephen Fry. This was very notable in Stephen Fry. He got quite... agitated when he was talking about bone cancer and children. Oh, he always goes there. He goes there.

He's morally outraged. And he seems outraged. And you think, sir, this makes no sense. If there is no God, why would you be outraged? Why, on some level, you could even argue, from where do you get any sense of justice or right or wrong? You know, if we evolved out of the primals by accident, what are you even talking about? On what grounds are you outraged? Yeah.

Yes, that's the fundamental question. I guess he would answer that, you know, if, if, and he says he's not, but he's saying, if you or I or anyone else is positing this loving God, this omnipotent God, then to him it is offensive that that God would allow these things. Yeah, but he still doesn't take it personally.