The Eric Metaxas Show - J.P. Moreland (Encore)

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

Distinguished philosopher J.P. Moreland shares amazing miracle stories as he addresses whether there's a God who still "works in mysterious ways" throughout the world today. (Encore Presentation)

Folks, welcome to the Eric Metaxus show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m.investments.com. Eric McTaxis show with your host, Eric Metaxis. Hey there, folks. I have to say every now and again, we get a guest on the program that I feel, you know, this really should be a Socrates in the city program because the guest is too distinguish simply to appear on this silly radio show.

But actually, the radio show suddenly becomes less silly when you get one of these kinds of guests. Today, I really am thrilled and I have the privilege of speaking with J.P. Morland. It's safe to say he's one of the leading evangelical thinkers of our time. He's a distinguished professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology. And he is, gosh, he has degrees in philosophy, theology. and chemistry. I think that might be a typo. His work has appeared in numerous publications, including philosophy and phenomenological research. Have you heard of that one? Has your

subscription lapsed to philosophy and phenomenological research? He really is someone we're thrilled to have on the program. J.P. Moreland, welcome. It's so good to be with you, my brother. Thank you for lifting the tone of this conversation by not being me. I'm going to do my best to let you talk. Honestly, I'm thrilled to talk to you, but I'm more thrilled to talk to you than I would even normally be because you've written a book titled A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles, Instruction and Inspiration for Living Supernaturally in Christ. Many people think that one is either some kind of an intellectual theologian or the kind of Christian who believes in miracles. You and I know that's nonsense, but I'm glad to show that that's nonsense by having you on the program as the author of this book.

When did you decide to write this book and why? Well, I began to do a study of the Book of Acts afresh and the first four centuries of the church to see what they emphasize in trying to build disciples. and they were world changers. And I discovered three things, Eric. First, they valued people learning what they believe and why they believe. So the cultivation of a Christian mind. Secondly, they emphasized principles of discipleship and character formation, centering around a tender heart for Jesus. But finally, there is no doubt that they emphasized the manifest power of the kingdom of God on behalf of the name of Jesus.

And today, we have lost sight of that in Western culture. And I have come to believe that miracles, book-of-act-style miracles, are not rare. They're happening all over the world, including this country, all the time. The problem is that we've been naturalized, so we don't believe in miracles. We have a resistance. And the other problem is people who write on this tend to be a little bit, well, goofy.

They're kind of not credible. So I wanted to set the record straight, Eric, by trying to bring whatever credibility I had and to weigh in and say, let me tell you, God is performing at least five different kinds of miracles all the time. And I wanted to get that on the table. Well, the book is called A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles, J.P. Morland, the internationally renowned philosopher, is the author. And I have to say, JP, if I can call you JP, I just, what fascinates me is, first of all, I agree with you

that the reason many people dismiss the realm of the miraculous is because oftentimes people who traffic in that, tend to express themselves in ways maybe that are off-putting. I wrote a book called Miracles, which I wrote it for the same reason. I thought I want to bring what credibility I have. It doesn't begin to compare to the credibility you do, but I thought it's very important for us to try to look at this rationally and try to help people from all sides, you know, draw a bead on what we're talking about here. But what I want to ask you first, because I think this is important, there are people.

I was just reading the systematic theology book of John MacArthur. And I immediately flipped to the page where he makes the case for what's called cessationism, arguing that once the canon of scripture had been ended, you know, effectively 100 AD, that from then onward, miracles ceased to have any purpose in the church. He makes the case that the whole point of them was to underscore the authority of the people at that time. And once that had all been established, that the era of miracles was over. I feel strongly that that's mistaken, and I know now that you do too. but what do you say to somebody whom we would otherwise respect profoundly, like a John MacArthur,

what do you suppose gets him to take that argument that far to say that these things aren't for today when so many of us know that they are? We don't even say, I think they are. We know that they are. We've seen this. I'd say three things. The first one is that the purpose of miracles in the New Testament is not simply to be a sign that this is God's message. There was another purpose that's all throughout the Gospels in the Book of Acts,

and that is God manifesting his love and care for a person in need. And Jesus was moved with compassion. So the first thing I would say is that that reduction to just one purpose of New Testament miracles doesn't represent the text fairly. The second thing I would say would be that the view that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased is itself dying. out, and it is now an extraordinarily minority view among biblical scholars and theologians. But here's the third thing that's most important. Eric, in my book, my theological basis for growing an expectation of at least five different

kinds of miracles is not based on spiritual gifts. It's based on the reality of the kingdom of God now, and the primary way that kingdom is manifested according to Paul is power. And so I admit a new form of the kingdom in the future. But let's face it, when Jesus came, there was a new dimension of the kingdom manifested to this time that wasn't present in the Old Testament. And so we have a now, not yet. And that kingdom, as it is now, is to be manifested in the power of the Holy Spirit in signs and wonders. So my theology is, based on the kingdom, I also believe the gifts are for today, but if you don't, that doesn't matter. You still have the power of the kingdom. And, you know, if you read Acts, I'll close with this,

you don't see a reference to gifts in terms of the miracles. They are manifestations of the spirits and the kingdom's power, and I embrace that for today. Well, it is interesting because I think we all know that suddenly in the New Testament era, you see all of these things. But folks like MacArthur would argue, yes, it's there, but then it ends, that this was a special, I guess, in a sense, it's a special dispensation. Am I using that word incorrectly there? No, that's quite. That's right. So it's a dispensation, and then it's over, and that's why they call themselves cessationists.

But you're saying, and obviously I agree, that no, when this appeared, it appeared to stay. We are currently still in the era that was inaugurated with Jesus. Yes, and one other thing I say all of this in the book, but it didn't cease. Folks, we're talking to J.P. Morland, the new book, a simple guide to experience miracles, instruction and inspiration for living supernaturally in Christ. exciting. We will continue. We'll be right back. There's a must-see new movie on SalemNow.com called Michelle Obama, 2024, her real-life story and plan for power. Film director, Joel Gilbert, takes a deep dive

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retirement. No matter what happens, you own your gold. It is real, it is physical, it's always been valuable since the dawn of time. Legacy Precious Metals is the company I trust for investing in gold. They can help you roll your retirement account into a gold-backed IRA where you still own the physical gold. They can also ship gold and precious metals safely and securely to your house. Call Legacy at 866-5281903 or visit them online at Legacypminvestments.com. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to J.P. Morland. You may know him as Professor of Philosophy, distinguished professor of philosophy at Talbot in California. He is also the author right now of a book called A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles. Dr. Morland, you were just saying that

there is evidence of the miraculous beyond the first century. I think when I was reading John MacArthur's book on systematic theology, he refers to that. He's quoting somebody, but he effectively says that, he essentially says that there was kind of a lot of exaggeration with regard to stories of the saints and things like that, which, is certainly true. So when you refer to the miraculous being documented beyond the era of the scripture, beyond the first century, what are you referring to? Well, you have to understand, if I may say so, that I'm a research scholar with a reputation. I'm not some naive person who accepts everything they read. So I've vetted this very carefully. And in the first four centuries,

we have church fathers documenting the miracles that they saw themselves, the casting out of demons, healings in the name of Jesus. In fact, Tertullian in one place is writing to a Roman official scapula who is beginning to persecute Christians. And Tertilian, in the 200s of church fathers, says this, why would you want to persecute us? Because we're the ones that heal your sick and deliver them from demons. We're doing good for your empire.

Why would you want to harm us? Well, you don't say that to a Roman official if it's not true, because that'll just make him mad and it'll turn up the dials. So that is a hardcore piece of evidence. Hey, have there been exaggerations? You bet. But I don't care about that. You don't judge the truth of something by counterfeits.

And so I have done my homework. I vet 40 to 50 cases, Eric, that I would stake my reputation on of, like I said, five different kinds of miracles happening today, some of which I have seen myself. And there's no way that these didn't happen. And I'll leave it to the reader to decide. But John McCarthy, with all due respect, is not doing his homework. Well, it is interesting, isn't it, that there's some people, for them, this is really a major issue. this idea, and they tend to denigrate anything having to do with the miraculous or with deliverance or healing, certainly with anything prophetic, as though they can scripturally do that.

They can just cut it off and say, no, this has nothing to do. And it's at least more complicated than that. But I want to ask you about your personal experiences. First of all, did you grow up knowing that this was real, or is this something that you've come to later in life? I was raised in a liberal Methodist church, and it wasn't until my junior year in college in 1968 that I came to Christ through a campus crusade, now called Crew, and I went to Dallas seminary and other places, and I never bought the cessationist line, but all the miraculous so-called

events appeared goofy to me, and they were by people that were kind of off on a tangent that weren't really proclaiming the gospel as the central issue. Well, I started going to a vineyard church in 2003, and I'm telling you, it blew my wife's mind and my mind. So it wasn't until the last two decades, though, that you began to experience this stuff through the vineyard movement. Well, yes, I experienced miracles before then, but in droves is what happened when I started going to the vineyard. And I began to see and hear things that were credible. And I asked questions. I said, said, are you sure that really happened? And now I'm a different person. It has completely changed my life. Well, it's funny because when you mentioned Dallas Theological Seminary, I think of that as the

place out of which cessationism came, really, that if you were there, I'm friends with Jack Deere, who when he began trafficking in this stuff, they threw him out. They couldn't bear to have somebody, even though he was a distinguished professor of the ancient language. languages and on and on and on, it bothered them to that extent. I think they may be less hidebound about this today. I don't know whether you can say. Well, they have loosened up a little bit, but I don't know the extent. I do know faculty members at Dallas are full on and signs and wonders. I don't know if they make that known to people. The main thing about my book is I want to encourage people to draw closer to Jesus and to have to.

have more confidence that this is all true. And one way that you grow in your confidence is that you learn how to pray specifically, how to pray for the sick, how to hear God's voice. I list five different ways that you can hear God's voice under the authority of scripture, how to recognize a demon or an angel and then near-death experiences, some of which are clearly biblical. And I have 14 reasons why people don't get their prayers answered, which is a big frustration because it looks like God doesn't show up sometimes when it would be in his interest. I try to explain that. But what I think is really unique about the book is I present a principle for deciding whether

an event is a miracle or just an accident and an unlikely coincidence. And I think all of this is an attempt to emboldened and give courage to my brothers and sisters that what we have is true and we need to step out and risk a little bit more. Well, I certainly agree. And I really do think it's scandalous when people try to limit God. It's, I mean, it's not merely scandalous. It's repulsive because people are suffering and God wants to bring healing and he wants to bring deliverance from demonic oppression. And anybody who says, well, that's not for us or we don't do that here. I think, well, what do you do? That's pathetic. if you call yourself a church and you don't do that.

What's your excuse for not doing that? People are in pain. You talk about feeding the – it's kind of like saying, well, we don't feed the hungry and we don't help the poor here. That's not what we do. And you think, well, why don't you? And I think part of this – you know, this does bring us to politics. There are some people, I think, who've revealed themselves,

particularly in the last number of years since Trump came on the scene, that they are worried – And I can understand this. I really do get this, but they're worried about intellectual respectability. They're afraid that if I align myself with that politician or that group or that person who talks about miracles, it will sully my reputation and it will make me less effective as an evangelist, as a Christian. I understand that. But I think those people are mistaken because when you see real pain around you, you have to respond.

And you can't worry. But I think people worry too much about that kind of intellectual respectability to the point that it drives them into effectively heresy. Well, you and I are on the same page, my friend, I'll tell you. I can care less about intellectual respectability or what people think of me. I gave that project up a long time ago, except for one thing. I do care that my work is good and I represent Christ by doing superior work. Apart from that, I got an audience of and my brothers and sisters, and I could quite frankly care less about what the Academy thinks of me. So I'm with you 100%. Well, you've established your bona fides, and I think that's often part of the equation that these people are worried that they won't get to do that or something like that. But I'm with you. I mean, my books stand for themselves. I don't do sloppy work.

But apart from that, I'm going to speak what I think is the truth, do the best I can, because we're living in tough times. And I really think so many people have run for cover when we ought to be in the battle because the battle is winnable by God's grace. And that these issues are connected. Well, life's too short to do otherwise, Eric. And back to your point about people suffering. I have like 40 to 50 cases that I carefully vetted in the book. But let me tell you one of them. We have a Monday night healing prayer ministry where people can come to our church, they can sign up for prayer, and a group of three or four people will take them do a room and get permission to lay hands on them and pray over them for, say, 20 minutes.

There was a Jewish woman who was consigned to hospice care. She had 51 points of cancers throughout her body, and she was terminally ill. chemo radiation nothing worked so she was in hospice a christian friend said look what do you have to lose there's a church i know of that prays for the sick on monday night why don't you give it a shot even though you're jewish so she came monday night three nights three weeks in a row the first two monday nights nothing happened but she felt so loved and blessed that she wanted to come back the third monday night she felt hot oil according to her own words pour through her body and she intuitively knew that she had no cancer left so the next morning she called her oncologist and said i know i'm in hospice care but

you have got to do one more scan on me and he fitted her in that week she went in and the and the doctor came out this is no kidding and his jaw was on the floor he said there's not only no cancer in body. There's no evidence you ever had it. And he showed her the two plates. We're going to, this is a cliffhanger, ladies and gentlemen, in show business. We'll be right back with J.P. Moreland. Tell me, Eric, why is relief factor so successful at lowering or eliminating pain? I'm often asked that question. The owners of Relief Factor tell me they believe our bodies were designed to heal. That's right, designed to heal. And I agree with them. So the doctors who formulated Relief Factor for them selected the four best ingredients, yes, 100% drug

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miraculous healings that give God glory. V-V-V-V-O-L-R.com.com. V-I-V-V-O-L-R dot com.com. and use code Eric. Vivalore.com, use the code Eric. Hey, folks, I'm talking to J.P. Morland, the J.P. Morland, distinguished professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology and so on and so on. The new book, A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles. Dr. Moulin, you're just talking about this Jewish woman who was genuinely, miraculously, outrageously healed of terminal cancer.

Keep going because there was more. Right. Well, I interviewed two of the people that were on that prayer team, and they vouched for everything I've just told you. But here's the interesting thing. About five years after this happened, I was invited by PBS to participate in a debate with scholars around the world on miracles. And I wanted to cite this case.

So I got her name and email address, and I emailed her and told her, her name is Maim Sawyer, I'm going to present your case. Can you tell me if this is really what happened? Well, I had the email here on my file. She wrote back and said, every single thing you said is exactly the way it took place. And here's something else.

I converted to becoming a messianic Jew the instant I knew I was healed. And five, six years later, whatever it was, I am still on fire for him. And the cancer has never returned since I was prayed for that. night. Now, that's her own words. I have the email right here. Now, what do you do with that, Eric? What are you going to do to that? Many people, I mean, I've had this experience where you share something like that and somebody, this is where we have to be clear, unless the Holy Spirit reveals something to someone, merely being logical can't do it. You're asking, you're asking, right? Even though

the logic is there, it's like throwing BBs against a brick wall. It doesn't do anything. I've, I've experienced this many times where you share a story that you would expect people's jaws to drop open and to say, oh my goodness, wow, where can I get me some of that? And they don't. So it is fascinating in a way just to see how sometimes things happen and sometimes they don't. You could say the same thing for healing, right, that you pray for someone, you do the exact same thing and they don't get healed. There's a lot to be said about that. I know you talk about that in the book. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Why sometimes these things don't work? Yes, I have 14 reasons that I've really carefully thought about.

And before I give you a specific one, my advice to people is that if you don't get an answer to prayer that you think God would just obviously want to answer this or a healing, look up those pages. And there may be, all 14 won't apply, but maybe two or three of them will give you some insight as to what might have happened and it will encourage you not to get the screen. Now, sometimes we just don't know, but at least these are helpful guidelines. And I would say that the main thing that helps me is that I have such a limited perspective on what's going to happen if this person gets healed compared to not healed. But God sees a much larger picture, and he might know that it may appear to be in everyone's best interests for me to respond to your prayer. But the truth is, if I were to do so, things would not be as good as if I let things run their course. That's comforting to me. Well, that's the real

question. Whom do you trust? If you really trust the Lord, then you can accept that. When he says what ostensibly looks like a no, and you realize, well, it's a no, but there's a larger yes, if you know who God is. And that is important. Do you talk in the book about other specific miracles, anything that you want to share? Because I think it's important to have stories like that. Oh, absolutely. Like there are 40 or some.

Yeah. I don't have time to tell you some of them, but here's a quick one. We had a conference up in mid-California where about six of our team went up there to teach on healing, prayer. And I know four of them, including one of them, was an optometrist assistant who did eye exams and so on. Well, there was a couple that came to that conference. Their names are in the book, and the husband had his eye put out by a grenade. He jumped in front of his captain, and the shrapnel of the grenade went off and put his eye out. His eye by this time looked like just a marble. It was dead. And he had not seen for decades.

He and his wife came for prayer, and a group of the people there laid hands on this gentleman, and after 20 minutes of prayer, his eye was completely restored, and it was alive. And he and his wife started running around like they were nuts. They were screaming and yelling and laughing, and there were people who saw this. and I know that the optometrist assistant and the other people who did this are credible, and I push questions to all of them. And if I wanted to, I could contact the people up in Sacramento, but I had enough evidence for that. But there's no way to explain that.

And he was healed after about 20 minutes of soaking prayer. And his eyesight has been restored to this day. I mean, when you hear these things, first of all, of all, it's tremendously encouraging. It makes me want to go pray, which is fantastic, right? I have to think that many people who know you through your work as a philosopher and a scholar, that many people would be surprised that you would come out in this place. When we come back, I want to ask you more about that, because typically people who write for philosophy and phenomenological research. They don't go to a vineyard church and they don't pray for for healing.

And you do. And it's very, it's at least interesting. So we're going to be right back. Folks, I'm talking to J.P. Moreland, the new book, A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles. We'll be right back. My Pillow is having their biggest sheet sale of the year. You've all helped build my pillow into the amazing company it is today. Now Mike Lindell, inventor and CEO wants to give back exclusively to his listeners, the per kale bed sheet set is available in a variety of colors and sizes, and they're all on sale. For example, the queen's size, regularly priced at 89.99 is now only 3998 without a listener promo code Eric. Order now because when they're gone, they're gone. The per kale sheets are breathable. They've got a cool crisp feel. They come with a 10-year warranty

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That's mypillow.com. promo code Eric. Look how it comes tomorrow. That's when I have to choose how I wish. Folks, I'm talking to J.P. Moreland, so I better stop talking. J.P. Morland, you were just going to answer or respond to my question, my leading question about whether people, you know, look at what you're saying now with a jaundiced eye. What has been the response? Well, I think that the evidence that I provide in the book is so strong. And I, as a philosopher, I know how to invest. investigate and vet things and to present the case for things. And I also respond to the number one objection atheists raise against these, and I pretty much take it off the table. So if people will

give it a chance and just give me a hearing, I don't see how they can keep from being persuaded. You ask me a question about how is it that a person who is a professional philosopher does these things. And my response is, well, why wouldn't a professional philosopher do these things? And here's why. My philosophical work has convinced me beyond a reasonable doubt that all of this is real and true. I know God exists. I know that Jesus Christ and the New Testament documents are solid enough history, and I believe in anerrancy, but they're solid enough history to know that Jesus is who is presented there. He did the miraculous and rose to. of the dead. Now, if I am really confident, based upon the evidence and arguments I've read over

the years, duh, don't you think that I would start saying, well, since this is real, I'm going to start stepping out. And so my attempt to pray for the sick and to see God move is based on the confidence I have that this stuff is true in the first place. And so you would think that the more reasonable people think Christianity is, the more they would launch out and experience and engage in taking a risk for the kingdom. I think people don't do that because their career and their reputation means more to them than trying to serve Christ. And just so we underscore the point, what in the world could be more shameful than that? I think we need to make that very clear. Folks, your time.

time on this planet is short. And that, which really amounts to fear of man, is a kind of dedication to sin, really, that we need to at least be open about our motivations, about why we do things or don't do things. I think the way most people respond to this kind of thing, Dr. Morland, is to ignore it. In other words, the safest thing for folks like that is not to read your book, less they be persuaded. And I've experienced this a lot myself, where people just, they don't really want to hear the argument because they're afraid that it will be persuasive.

And so they ignore it, and they tend to, you know, deride you and use ad hominem insults as a way simply of deflecting what is too painful for them to bear. I really do think that's the case. I'm friends with somebody who lives in your neck of the woods, Ken Fish, who has a ministry. He started out with John Wimber in the 80s. and incredibly brilliant mind.

He was a quantum physics major at Princeton and then starts hanging out with John Wimber. But it's amazing to me. I mean, he has a particular gift for deliverance and healing and so on and so forth. And when you see it, when you're there and you watch it, you think, well, it's at least real. I may have questions,

but I can't think that this is somehow demonic or this is something I need to run from and I really do think that a lot of this is whether people have enough desperation to open themselves up to experiencing things like this. And the vineyard, of course, has been a great place for people to encounter this. Do you go to a vineyard church now? I don't know if you can say that. Yes, I still go to the same vineyard. And in the book, I give several ways that people can overcome this and begin to practically learn how to experience this.

more and more, but let's face it. A sin of omission is as bad as a sin of omission, and by failing to do what we're all called to do because of the reasons you stated is not a good thing. And I also believe, wouldn't you agree that tremendous joy and well-being comes in life when we see God act, when we get an answer to prayer that we know, and I give a test for this in the book, could not have been coincidence. My gosh, you realize God is alive and he knows me. And he took the time to step in and grant me a request. This is unbelievable. And it rededicates your heart to wanting to make his name great because he's such a wonderful person. Well, when you talk about witnessing the healing of this dead eye that had been dead for decades, I mean, if you experience anything quite like that, it will change you forever because it's simply that dramatic.

And by the way, it's meant to change you forever. One of the reasons the Lord does these things is, in fact, to build our faith. So that's why when people make the case almost that this stuff is counterfeit and that, well, if it's leading me to Jesus, I don't know how it could possibly be counterfeit. You're right. It's basically. Jonathan Edwards. Go ahead. No, I'd love to hear about Jonathan Edwards.

Jonathan Edwards saw these things, and Edward said that if you see these sorts of manifestations, at the end of the day, they're evaluated ultimately on the fruit they produce. If they draw people to Christ, if they enliven their Christian lives and cause them to dig into the word and love God's people more, the devil is either stupid, which we know he's not, or else this is something that God is doing. And so the fruit of these things, are there cases? Yeah, there are cases where people get off on a tangent. And that saddens me. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about wise use. And boy, the fruit is there. When we talk about this stuff, too, I'm always, I'm fascinated with the demonic and the angelic, that there's this world, a created world of spiritual beings, that there could be nothing clearer from the scripture that this, is real, but there are many Christians today, many of them very intelligent and otherwise

faithful Christians who ignore this. They seem to be afraid of even looking in that direction. Have you had any experiences with that realm? Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, I have. I can't go into it, but in the chapter on this, I explain how I know that there are three angels that guard me, and the evidence I provide would stand up in a court of law. We know demons. are real for the following reasons. I've come to trust the scriptures after testing them for 53 years, and the Bible's clear on this. Secondly, if the person cannot do the things, the scriptures say a demonized person can't do, love the brethren, be drawn to the word, confess Jesus' as Lord, then why is that? Because a multiple person... Actually, forgive me, this is, this is

too important, so we're going to go to a break. We'll be right back, and we will let J.P. Morland finish these sentences. Folks, I'm talking to J.P. Morland, who was just in the point of making, just on the verge of making a great point or series of points, and we had to cut them off. Please continue. Well, demons, we know are real. The Bible teaches it. Secondly, a demonized person can't do the things the Bible says a demonized person can't, but a multiple personality case can, like acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Third, if nothing else, has worked and I was a part of delivering a young lady from a demon. Her dad was a psychiatrist and mother, a therapist, and all the medication and therapy didn't work, but she was instantly

delivered in our church through prayer and never returned. Number four, there are clear cases where the demonized person knows intimate details about the lies of those in the room and points out what they were doing on Tuesday or this is how your mother died or this was what was going on in your house last Friday night. Demonic words of knowledge, so to speak. Exactly. And the human subject could not have known them. All those combine to indicate to me that it's beyond reasonable doubt that demons are real.

Well, it's interesting what you said with regard to, you know, multiple personalities disorder because nobody's arguing that there might not, that there, that there are cases of troubled souls where it is not an issue of demonic oppression, but there are cases where it is. And we need to have the tools to diagnose these things and to say in this case, you can do all the therapy you want, but there's a demonic issue here. And some people simply wipe out that category and they medicate or they do whatever they can't get at the root of it because they've decided that category can't exist.

Right? You're absolutely right. So all the above. We bring all the tools we can. Well, it's incredible. I remember one of the things that really brought me to faith was reading M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie, where he deals with evil and then ultimately talks about an exorcism. And this is a pretty left-wing Harvard psychiatrist writing about evil, realizing this is a thing. This is a real thing. This is not just a privation of the good. There's something palpable, personal, evil and it's so horrifying. But I remember reading about, reading in that book, and I thought to myself, this guy's clearly not crazy. He's clearly reporting on things, and there's no question that there's a reality here. So the question is, what is that reality and how do I respond? But we do live in a culture that even the church doesn't want to talk about this. And of course, that plays into the enemy's hands. And that's why we have to have the confidence to talk among ourselves about,

about the things that we know and the reasons why we know them. That's why shows like yours and a book like mine and others are important that people invest themselves to listening and reading and staying up on what's been going on. I've only just received your book published by Zondervan, and I look forward to reading it and having you back on the program because it strikes me that there's more to talk about. I just get that impression. Yes, there is. I'd love to come back.

I was going to say, let's do that. And I want to say that the book is festooned with Encomia from the likes of Craig Keener, Jay Warner Wallace, Wayne Grudem. Who doesn't love Wayne Grudem? Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, who just celebrated his 70th birthday. He doesn't want anyone to know that. Happy birthday, Lee. It really is, it's just a pleasure. to have you on the program.

What was the date that the book was launched? It was launched in November, around the middle of November. So it's a brand new book, a simple guide to experience miracles, instruction, and inspiration for living supernaturally in Christ. I can't think of anything more important. So, J.P. Moreland, thank you for the book, and thank you for your time. We look forward to having you back as soon as possible. It's been my privilege.