The Eric Metaxas Show - Justin Brierley

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Justin Brierley joins to discuss his new book The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God

Folks, welcome to the Eric Metaxus show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. It's the show featuring Go-Go-Go the chimp. Nothing like a chimp to liven up the radio show. Easy there. Go-go, go, go, go. No, go, go. Hey, folks. Welcome to the show. Happy Thursday to you. we're talking to our friends, Anne and Phelam, our journalistic duo, our friends, welcome back.

Always encouraging to see you and to hear what you're doing. Thank you. It's great to be here. Thanks, Eric. I mean, what you two are doing right now is, I was amazed. I guess I'm usually amazed when I find out what you're up to. It's happening in New York City. It's happening right now. Tell my audience, it's a play called October 7th.

I don't need to explain what it's about. But please explain to my audience the details of what you have accomplished, what you're doing with this play. Well, after October 7, we noticed people weren't talking about October 7th anymore. They were talking about Gaza. They were talking about Palestine. They were talking about turning off the electricity. They were talking about the war in Gaza.

But nobody was talking about what happened on October 7 that led to everything else. So we went to Israel after October 7th, we went there, and we interviewed maybe 20, 25 people who had lived through that day, had various stories to tell, had suffered or had lost people, or had fought back, had miracle escapes, combat it, had been involved in combating Hamas. And we've taken their stories, and we interviewed them at length, and we're taken about 13 of those stories, and made them into a play, which is going on stage. in New York. It's on stage at the moment where in previews, official opening night is Monday, May the 13th, and then it's going to run until the middle of June. But it's a

play. It's kind of like, if you ever saw the movie Crash, it's all these disparate stories that start off and then some of them are connected as they go through. And they weave this compelling story. And every word that's on stage, every word that is on stage

is verbatim. It's from the interviews. We haven't done like, left do. We haven't added composite characters, which means fake characters. We haven't added any editorializing. We haven't, you know, added any drama. It's all just the eyewitness accounts of the people who are there. It's extraordinary to me that you do what you do. I mean, the idea that you went to Israel and that you interviewed these people, how did you find them? I mean, it's just amazing to me. So we have a lot of Jewish friends in this country, and, you know, we talk to a lot of people and ask them, you know, do you know people? Do you know people in Israel? And people connected

us to other people. And we also had a fixer, a local fixer who helped us. But actually, a lot of the interviews we did were based on a very good friend of mine who lives in Connecticut, who has family in Israel. And she connected me to her cousin, who then, you know, connected us. And people, you know, I just heard someone talking about Israel. There's a million stories. You know, it isn't hard to find the stories. This event, October 7th, affected every last person. in the country. And it's journalism too. You know, we're journalists. That we, that's what we've done all along. All our work is journalistic based. And I suppose, you know, as journalists, you know, you go and

search for stories and you just talk to everyone and you reach out to everyone you ever met and, you know, to sources find these stories. I mean, I think that's, you know, one of the faults of the conservative movement is they don't do enough original journalism. They're great at commenting on what people are saying and what liberals are saying, what the world is doing. But they're not going. going out and talking to the original source. So that's our background, journalism. And this is a, you know, this is a first draft of history, as they call it, on stage in New York. 13, really professional. I forgot that journalism existed, if not for the two of you and a handful of other friends.

I mean, imagine if the New York Times, instead of worshipping at the throne of Satan and publishing garbage every day, like the 1619 project, I mean, utter non-year. nonsense, madness, garbage. Imagine if the New York Times used their fading, almost disappeared pulpit, and they published this kind of information. Imagine if the New York Times used their outrageous resources to do what the two of you have done. But folks, the New York Times doesn't do that anymore. They don't care. So I am thrilled and filmed you have done this. This is This is true journalism to wake people up to say this is exactly what's happening. These are the words of people who have been through this.

The play just for people to get the website. October 7. So it's the number 7. October 7. Theplay.com. October 7. The number 7. October 7.

Theplay.com. It is in New York City. It is from now through June 16th. It's right there on Broadway. I have the address in front of me. It's on West 47th Street, 339, West 47th Street. Actors Temple Theater. It is really, you've done this just so beautifully.

You call it a verbatim play. And Phelam, you pull this together. It's, I mean, it's more than journalism. You've done journalism, but then you've done art. You've turned it into a play. very, very quickly. So congratulations on this. So tell us, for my audience, because we haven't talked very much about it recently, what are some of these stories? What have some, what have people endured that we're already forgetting about while the pro-Hamas lunatics on these campuses are talking about,

you know, the suffering in Gaza? Let's go back to October 7th, some of the people in the this place saying in their own words. Yes. I mean, let me tell you two stories. You know, there is one story of Mihel Bielia, a grandmother living in Ofokim, who, you know, had spent the night before, for your Jewish listeners, they'll know that it was Simcat Torah, which is a very special festival and a special holiday, Jewish holiday, celebrating the end of reading the Torah for the year and starting again. And she had had two of her sons. She had four sons. Two of her sons, Ariel and Guy, came with their wives and their children, had a really lovely evening together.

And then in the morning started to hear the barrage of bombs and gunfire going off in the town, in the village. And her son Ariel said, you know, came up with a great idea, by the way, which was a great idea, to get up, go upstairs and get out onto the roof of the neighbor's house and get under the solar panels. and I make the little joke, the dark humour here, you know, first good use of a solar panel ever. And they did, they all get out except for Mihal Bielia and Ariel. So she gets her legs stuck in the window. And while she's stuck getting out the window, she sees a Hamas terrorist who trains his gun on her.

And she says in those words, and we sat there listening to her say this, she said, I wasn't frightened. the savage did not deserve my fear. You know, this is what she said. Eventually she gets out, she gets under the solar panel, but Ariel never follows because the terrorists had breached the house and they went in and he was killed.

Then we have down in the south, very close to Gaza, we have a beautiful man, Zaki, who works for Coca-Cola and has a van, is very proud of the work he does. He's very, very, very religious. And so for that day, obviously Shabbat, Everything was off, the telephone was off, you know, and TV and radio and all of that. But he heard what sounded like thunder and it went on for a really long time.

And after a while he realized it wasn't thunder and that in fact they were under attack. He turned on the radio or the television, realized what was happening and immediately thought, who was going to save the young people at the Nova Party? He had actually installed the soda machines at the Nova Party. And he knew the answer immediately before he finished his sentence. he was going to save the young people and he got his van that he uses for work for Coca-Cola

and his buddy, his next-door neighbor and the two of them made these forays back and forth into the Nova into the middle of the mayhem into the middle of the massacre and saved a hundred young people and he is a rock star and you know what I love I just have to say this

I don't want to over-dominate the conversation he's got a beautiful thing he gets really angry when people say you're an amazing man. Thank God you're a great guy. You're a wonderful guy. And he said, no. And he gets angry about it. He said, it's the highest calling among the Jewish faith. And if you knew anything about Judaism, you'd know that. To save a soul, there is nothing holier. He said, you break Yom Kippur. You break the holiest of the holiest days to save a soul. And he said, I can't believe people don't know that. And he's just the most wonderful, wonderful person. and Coca-Cola should be really, really proud of him. Folks, please go to October 7th, theplay.com. Anne and Phelm, thank you. Thanks, Eric.

Thank you, Eric. Remember as a kid, your parents and grandparents making you try all the vegetables on your plate or when they coax you to eat fruit instead of sweets? That's because they knew what was good for you, and it's true today than ever before. You need to eat your fruits and veggies. There's no substitute for a healthy diet,

but there is balance of nature. Their products are gluten-free and non-GMO, and they contain no added sugars or synthetics. If you're looking for something to make you feel better naturally, you should definitely try balance of nature today. Eat your fruits and veggies every single day with balance of nature. I started taking balance of nature the day I decided I was ready to feel better. Are you ready to start? Whether you order online or call them direct, you must use the promo code Eric to get the special offer of 35% off.

Call them at 800 2468-751 and use discount code Eric or order online at balance of nature.com. use discount code Eric to get 35% off. I'll say it again, 800, 2468, 751, use discount code Eric. Or order online at balance nature.com. Use discount code Eric to get 35% off. Legacy precious metals has a revolutionary new online platform that allows you to invest in real gold and silver online. In a few easy steps, you can open an account online, select your medals of choice, and choose to have them stored in a vault or ship to your door. You have access to a dashboard where you can try.

your portfolio growth in real time, anytime. You'll see transparent pricing on each coin and bar. This puts you in complete control of your money. The platform is free to sign up for. Visit legacy pm.investments.com and open your account and see this new investing platform for yourself. Gold hedges against inflation and against a volatile stock market. A true diversified portfolio isn't just more stocks and bonds, but different asset classes. This new platform allows you to make investments in gold and silver, no matter how small or large, with a few clicks, visit LegacyPMinvestments.com to get started. You're going to love this free new tool they've added. LegacyPMinvestments.com. Legacy pm. Investments.com. Check it out.

Folks, it is my privilege. Do you understand my privilege to have on as my guest, Justin Breyerle, he is a broadcaster in the UK. That's what we now call England and Enverrons, the UK. He's a writer. He's a speaker. We've had him on before. He has been involved in apologetics.

He has a new book out called the surprising rebirth of belief in God. It came out just at the end of last year. The surprising rebirth of belief in God and a new podcast called the surprising rebirth of belief in God. and welcome back. Oh, thanks for having me back, Eric.

It's been a few years since we last spoke. So it's great fun to be with you. It's been too long. I wanted to, sometimes I get confused if I've been on someone's show. I think you've had me on your podcast. And then I get confused. It's like, oh, I just saw you. And then I realized, but I was on your show.

How do you pronounce your surname? You got it dead right, Briar Lee. Yes. Just want to be sure. Just want to be good. Thank you for asking. Yeah. I know how to pronounce.

pronounce metaxus. How do you pronounce asking? Asking. Whenever I'm with somebody like you, you say, the surprising rebirth of belief in God. It just sounds so much more respectable than God. I mean, the real different between us when it comes to being divided by a common language is the way you guys pronounce some of our place names like Leicester, I've heard Americans call Leicester.

That is simply incorrect. That has nothing to do with being separated by a common language. Shame on you for even a. No, that's simply incorrect. Okay, so let me ask you this, I love the title of your book and the podcast, the surprising rebirth of belief in God. This is along the lines of what I've been talking and writing about myself. I wrote a book called Is Atheism Dead? And it seems to me that this is more than a thesis. This is happening. There is, in fact, a rebirth of belief in God. But what is your take on it, Justin? What do you say in your book, the surprising rebirth of belief in God? What led you to

write the book? Well, I think it's a book of two halves in a way. It begins really with just the fact that the new atheism really has died. That that movement came, you know, in a blaze of glory. It had its place in the bestseller charts with Dawkins and Hitchens and Harris writing these anti-god books, they had their atheist bus campaign. It was very trendy to be an atheist in the mid to late 2000s, but it really has come and gone. It kind of internally imploded. I kind of tell the story of how once the new atheist had agreed that God didn't exist and religion was bad for you, they really couldn't agree on anything else. They started splitting over gender ideology around social justice issues. They went off in all kinds of different directions. And the movement kind of ate itself,

really. And so really from that point, I've charted the way in which I've seen the conversation change around God in our culture. And having obviously hosted, you know, for many years on the unbelievable show, debates between atheists and Christians, I was just noticing increasingly that these conversations were changing so often that the non-Christians who were coming on were actually quite sympathetic to Christianity. They might be. They might be. not call themselves a Christian, but they might be as someone like a Jordan Peterson, who was coming on to essentially defend the idea that we are made in the image of God, even if he wasn't quite sure exactly how to talk about God, you know, explicitly, having Douglas Murray on for a conversation

with NT Wright, who described himself, Douglas Murray, you know, a conservative, you know, thinker here in the UK, who said, I'm a Christian atheist. And it sounds like a contradiction in terms, but essentially he was simply saying, I've kind of given up on the idea that atheism is actually where we can actually get our values from. He just recognized that they came from his Christian heritage. So I was having more and more of these conversations with interesting secular thinkers

who were essentially pointing people back towards Christian faith. And I just found this a fascinating sort of change in the atmosphere. There was a sense that it was becoming intellectually respectable to talk about God, again, in all kinds of ways. And so I sort of the catalystist for the book really was a conversation I had with Douglas Murray where he referenced that well-worn line from Matthew Arnold's Dover Beach, the melancholy long withdrawing roar of the sea of faith. And he said the thing about the sea of faith, Justin, is it could come back in again. That is the point of tides.

And I was noticing signs that I thought were perhaps that first turning of the tide and that we might be seeing a renewed interest in God in religion. And so, yeah, so I ended up writing a book on that subject. Now, you quote, I mean, you reference Matthew Arnold's famous poem Dover Beach. I'm trying to think it was, I feel that, I mean, I think that it was written around 1850. Am I getting that right? Do you remember? Yeah, about 150 years ago. And this was very much at the time when, yeah, I think probably Darwin had he adjusted.

I thought it was before Darwin, actually. I thought it was before Darwin. I've got the date here, actually, 1867. Aha. So Darwin had just published his theory. Well, no, I'm wrong. The origin of species. But for some reason, I thought, I guess what amazes me is, you know, most of us in the Christian West think that everything went to hell in the 60s or whatever.

But as you go back, back, back, back, back, you can see that among the intellectuals, among the cultural elites, of course, course, these things have been brewing for a long time. You could trace it back to the French revolution. I mean, these different strands in thinking. And when you think about Dover Beach, the idea that the elites 150 years ago were seeming to draw the conclusion like, well, it doesn't look good for faith. You know, Darwin is just one piece. But I mean, obviously, they were, were they were fomfering around for intellectual respectability, and Darwin seemed to have given them intellectual respectability. You can be an intellectually respectable atheist because now we figured out how it all came into being without God. But what's so funny to me, and it brings

us to the subject of your book, the title, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God, is that reality doesn't change. Trends change. It can be, intellectually respectable to hate Jews, to be a Nazi. That was intellectually respectable in many circles among the elites in Europe. What's intellectually respectable is, of course, meaningless. All that matters is what is true. And what is true doesn't change a jot or a tittle. Not at all.

Reality is fixed. Truth is fixed. So it's fascinating, really, because what you're doing, and to some extent, what I'm doing is we're charting these trends. But the trends have nothing to do with what is right and true. Or I should say that, you know, the trends exist somehow in spite of that. Because you don't change reality. It's just whatever. There's some consensus, you know.

But the consensus is meaningless. You know, there was a consensus that, you know, certain groups of people were less than human. That consensus exists today. What does it matter what the consensus exists? What is true and right? but I'm just fascinated when you talk about the new atheists and how they began to splinter apart. When I wrote my book as Atheism Dead, what astonished me because I had never really had the courage or the stomach to read their stuff. But I thought, well, if I'm writing a book called Z atheism Dead, I better look at it.

I was astonished at how bad it was. I thought, why in the world were they not given more pushback? Why were they given so much of a platform to spew what is? in the third sentence nonsense. I mean, you're, you're much more adept at having those kinds of conversations that I might just lose patience because it strikes me as almost instantly silly. But you're, tell us more about how. Yeah, I guess, I guess I'd throw myself in to a lot of those conversations.

And it's absolutely fair to say that some of the arguments were worse than others. And, you know, most professional philosophers would have drawn red lines. through most of the God delusion from Richard Dawkins because there were just so many non-sequiters and non-coherent arguments against God. It's full of them. But unfortunately, you can still sell 3 million copies of your book with very bad arguments in it.

And the point of the new atheism really was that it wasn't actually going on the intellectual strength of the arguments. It was all about rhetoric. It was all about, you know, marshalling the forces of the internet, which, you know, because the internet had come of age, I think that was a significant factor in propelling the new atheism as a movement.

It enabled lots of like-minded people who months would have been separated geographically to get together. And if they had an axe to grind against religion, you know, they were able to do that in chat rooms and eventually coming together in, you know, in-person meetings, atheist conferences and everything else. So it was very much a movement that I think was driven by the media that was driven by soundbites, memes online, you know, chat rooms where people could rag on Christianity. So in that sense it was never a serious intellectual movement. It was a very

popular level movement. But popular level movements do catch the eye of lots of people. They rode high in the media for a long time. I think in retrospect now, a lot of those new atheists are a little bit embarrassed by their movement, frankly. You don't

hear Sam Harris really talking about the strength of this movement any longer. I think he's recognized, Richard Dawkins has recognized, that actually, what it actually did was sweep the stage clear, not for a scientific rationalist utopia to come in in the place of religion, but for all kinds of posi religious ideologies to take the stage. And they are now reaping, if you like, the results of that. We'll be right back talking to Justin Breyerley, the surprising rebirth of belief in God. For 10 years, Patriarch,

Patriot Mobile has been America's only Christian conservative wireless provider. And when I say only, trust me, they're the only one. Glenn and the team have been great supporters of this show, which is why I am proud to partner with them. Patriot Mobile offers dependable nationwide coverage, giving you the ability to access all three major networks, which means you get the same coverage you've been accustomed to without funding the left. When you switch to Patriot Mobile, you're sending the message that you support free speech, religious freedom, the sanctity of life, Second Amendment, and our military, veterans and first responder heroes. They're 100% U.S.-based customer service team makes switching easy. Keep your number, keep your phone, or upgrade.

Their team will help you find the best plan for your needs. Just go to patriotmobile.com slash metaxis, Patriotmobile.com slash metaxis or call 972 Patriot. 972 Patriot. Get free activation when you use the offer code Metaxus. Join me, make the switch today. That's Patriotmobile.com slash Metaxus. Hey, this is Eric Mettaxas. For years, I've told you about Nutrametics, a professional supplement brand trusted by doctors since 1993.

Nutrametics offers a variety of health bundles. Whether you want to support your immune system, improve your sleep, promote joint comfort or detoxification support, Nutrimetics has a health bundle right for you. The best part about Nutrimetics, every year they donate a minimum of 50% of their profits to Christian charities and missions. That's right, 50% of their profits. Nutrametics has a goal of surpassing 100 million in giving. by 2030. Many of you take supplements already. Switch to Nutrametics. It's the highest quality, and they donate 50% of their profits. Get 15% off by using the code Eric during checkout. Go to Nutrametics.com and search health bundles. Support your health while helping others in need. Go to Nutrametics. That's N-U-T-R-A-M-E-D-I-X.com. Neutrametics.com. Use the code Eric for 15% off. Again, Nutrametics, N-U-T-R-A-M-D-X.com. Nutrametics.com, use the code.com.com. Neutrametics.com, use the code.com.

the code Eric for 15% off. Welcome back my guest to Justin Burley from the UK. In what part of the UK do you find yourself? I live in a town called Woking, which is just a short train ride from London. So you might as well say I'm London, really. Aha, you're part of Londonistan. It's now called, some say. It's not quite that bad, but yes, I don't know where you're coming from.

The book is the surprising rebirth of belief in God. And you, Justin Barley, are my guest now, and we're talking about this thesis that belief in God is on the upswing. So tell us more about that. I have my thoughts on this, many thoughts, but what do you say in the book along these lines? Well, I just think, as I say, as the new atheism kind of waned, collapsed in on itself, I think ultimately the problem with the new atheism was it didn't ultimately answer people's existential questions about who they are, what the point of life is, why they should get out of

bed in the morning. And so I was, you know, really surprised to see in, you know, around 2017, 2018, this interesting, somewhat idiosyncratic Canadian psychologist called Jordan Peterson, suddenly filling theatres with up to 2,000 often young men talking for two to three hours on the book of Genesis. And I thought, goodness me, this is very different, isn't it? Because he was essentially drawing the same audience that Sam Harris and Dawkins and co had been drawing, say, 10 years earlier, but he was suddenly talking about the Bible in ways that people could kind of take seriously. Obviously, it had his very kind of Jungian psychological twist on it all, but nevertheless, Jordan Peterson was opening up the Bible for people who had previously

dismissed it. And I was just fascinated at this very interesting turn. And I think the difference was that Peterson was speaking directly to people's actual existential He was still in a sense a man of science. He was still a man, you know, he was kind of part of that intellectual sort of set of people. But he was willing to accept that there is a spiritual dimension to life, that we need a story to live by. And he was willing to see that actually the Christian story specifically has given people a story to make sense of their lives historically. And so it was fascinating to see figures like Peterson coming on and suddenly kind of picking up the baton where I think the New Age atheist had really dropped it.

And I increasingly started to see other people saying similar things. Over here in the UK, there's a well-known historian who I'm sure you've come across Tom Holland, who co-hosts one of the most popular history podcasts in the world. The rest is history. But again, when he wrote his best-selling book Dominion, which is essentially a defence of the way in which the Christian revolution completely shaped the moral instincts of the West, again he was this super interesting very respectable intellectual secular voice essentially saying new atheism is just a kind of a Christian heresy basically everything you actually believe is valuable in life came from Christianity and it was just so interesting to see these voices suddenly becoming gaining these big platforms and lots of people starting to take because of them Christianity the Bible quite seriously so these were the sorts of figures and voices. that I started to bump into more and more.

Well, when you mentioned Tom Holland, you remind me that this July, I will be in Oxford, England, doing a Socrates in Oxford retreat, interviewing a handful of folks, among them, Tom Holland, principally about his book, Dominion. And it would be great to connect with you

since we'll be ourselves in the UK, which is a rare treat for us. But I was going to say that whenever you bring up folks like Jordan Peterson or Tom Holland or whatever, or Doug Douglas Murray, what's interesting to me is that they seem to be making,

because you're in England, I'm finding phrases in my head that I normally wouldn't have. I was going to say that they are making their way almost in crab ones, wise fashion, sideways, towards faith. It's interesting to me because they are kind of bumping into things,

which you and I as Christians would call, this is called reality, and you're finding that the reality is bumping you in a certain direction toward God. You may not say, I believe in the God of the Bible, you may not say, I am a Christian, but you find yourself inevitably moving in a certain direction. It becomes inevitable and why does it become inevitable?

Because you can, listen, I understand the atheist arguments. I don't just mean I understand them intellectually. I understand them emotionally. When you think of all the evils and sickness in this world, the suffering that people go through, you can see why someone would be furious at the idea of God. You can understand. I can completely understand that.

But if you're looking for meaning, and you're at all honest, you keep realizing that, well, okay, if there is no God, I have no ground upon which to rest any argument for anything. So I have to at least posit this idea of some kind of God. Otherwise, I don't have anything to say. So whether you're Douglas Murray speaking up for the Jews or your Jordan Peterson or your Tom Holland, you find that this is a nice thesis. Let's go with the thesis. And actually what it reminds me of, Justin, I'm not going to give you a chance to respond here. We have to go to another break. But what it reminds me of is the thesis that the universe is comprehensible, comprehensible. And so we're going to do this thing called

science. We don't know whether it tends. We only know that it's a thesis, that we can understand things. We can make some inferences. We can draw some conclusions. And we're moving in a direction toward understanding things. We don't know ultimately where it goes, but it's a thesis. And we're going to go with it. We're going to use the scientific method. It doesn't, it's not flawless, but it's moving us in a direction. That strikes me as at the heart of what you're describing and the surprising rebirth of belief in God. Folks, we'll be right back. We're talking to Justin Breyerly, the surprising rebirth of belief in God is the podcast and the book. You might have heard Mike Lindell and My Pillo no longer have the support of their box

stores or shopping channels the way they used to. Yes, it's because of cancel culture. But as a result, they get to pass the savings on to you directly by having a $25 extravaganza. When Mike started My Pillar, it was just a one product company. With the help of his dedicated employees, they now have hundreds of products, some you may not even know about. To get the word out, I want to invite my listeners to check.

out there, $25 extravaganza. Two-pack multi-use, MyPillows, just $25. MyPillow Sandals, $25. There's six-pack towels, just $25. Brand new four-pack dish towels. You guessed it, just $25. For the first time ever, the premium MyPillows with all new Giza Fabric, just $25. Orders over $75 will receive free shipping, too.

The amazing offer will not last long. Go to MyPillow.com. Use promo code Eric or call 800-9783057. That's promo code Eric. 9778305-057 promo code Eric or go to mypillow.com and use promo code Eric. Three-star general Michael J. Flynn, head of the Pentagon Intelligence Agency, knew all the government's dirty secrets. He was one of the most respected generals of the military.

Flynn knew what the intel world had been up to. He understood its funding. He ordered the first audit of the use of contractors. This set off alarm bells. The explosive new documentary, Flynn, deliver the truth. whatever the cost and covers the facts behind this scandal. Flynn told the truth he was the most dangerous person for Donald Trump to hire. I find out the worst enemy that I'm going to face in my life is right here in America.

They took my assessment and they wanted me to change it. I was like, I'm not changing it. They had to get rid of Flynn. With in-depth interviews, archival footage, and never-before-seen personal record to the man behind the headlines. I just felt like I was drowning. Flynn, deliver the truth. whatever the cost. Available now. Watch it today. Go to satemnow.com.

Salem now.com. Welcome back talking to Justin Breyer Lee. His book and podcasts are called the surprising rebirth of belief in God. So I just was saying, Justin, part of how I see it. In other words, people who are intellectually honest, and let's be honest, that's not everybody, that is not the late Christopher Hitchens, that's not Richard Dawkins. I mean, they really are intellectually very sloppy. And it's a shocking thing. And as I say, I wrote about it to some extent in my book is atheism dead. Just how sloppy there. But if you are intellectually honest, as Tom Holland is, Jordan Peterson, we've mentioned Douglas Murray, you can't help but find yourself, you know, buying this thesis that, well, we're going to go with this God hypothesis. We're not going to sign off

on all the details. But we don't see any other options. Isn't that part of what is happening? I think that's right. And in the book, I do trace not just the intellectual kind of things that these people are saying, but actually there, I think, spiritual journeys as well that are often going alongside this. So Tom Holland's a really interesting case in point because I had a kind of public conversation with him in London just a few months ago. And he's definitely sort of, as well as realizing that the Christian story and the Christian values are at the center of everything we value in the world. West in terms of compassion, equality, dignity, human rights and so on. He's also, I think, being drawn towards the story itself.

He sees it as a good, true and beautiful story. But I think very often, as of so many other secular intellectuals, you know, it's the kind of metaphysics that's the problem. It's kind of moving from one worldview into another because he's been so inculcated in a sense as he will admit into a sort of secular material kind of worldview. But nonetheless, I think what you're seeing among these secular intellectuals, is they're no longer happy with the secular material story of reality. It just isn't enough to kind of ground the things that they really value.

And I see the same thing happening with Douglas Murray. And so, you know, when Tom Holland tells his personal story, it's one of, you know, having been a sort of happy secular agnostic, essentially, until the point at which he started to really research the world of the Greeks and the Romans, and he wrote these best-selling books about them. But he realized, as he did that, just how alien their way of life was to him, the fact that this was a, you know, a culture where slavery was an absolutely de facto part of the economy,

where the lives of women and children were cheap, where certain people could be the sexual property of other people, and so on. And as he realized that he simply didn't share almost any of the values of these people, he realized that where those values came from was the person of Jesus Christ. And in doing so, he has become very attracted to the person of Jesus Christ. and he's often talked about the fact that his belief in human rights and anyone's belief in human rights, if they call themselves an atheist or a humanist, it's an act of faith, he says. It is just a theological assumption. And so he's very often said, so I'm going to believe in human rights, which are essentially a miracle, I might as well believe in a resurrection.

Why not? And so Tom Holland told me at this gathering that he has been going to church. been going to, in fact, a London's oldest church, St. Bartholomew the Great. He even told me that he's had what he considers an answer to prayer. He had a shock cancer diagnosis in the winter of 2021. And he went to a midnight mass at this church, Christmas Eve. And he said he prayed afterwards, because he was reeling from this cancer diagnosis, a sort of a desperate skeptics prayer.

And within a couple of weeks, lots of things in a very peculiar way, went right in such a way that that diagnosis was completely reversed. And there's, there's an interesting sort of addition to this story, which is he actually prayed to Mary because there's a sort of story about the apparition of the Virgin Mary in this very old church. However it happened, the point is Tom Holland is on some kind of journey and he's obviously, you know, wherever box you want to put him in, I think it's almost inevitable that once you get captured by the beauty of Christianity, you will want to embrace it because it's it's the best story out there Eric and that I think is what

I'm increasingly seeing is that people are getting tired of the secular material story of reality it has not lived up to its claims it has not delivered on meaning purpose and identity all it's delivered us is culture wars confusion and and so I think that's why people like Jordan Peterson are having this extraordinary effect of pointing people back towards a better story these sort of prophets from outside the church are saying look again at the Christian story. And I for one find that quite an exciting trend. You know, when you talk about the story, the person of Jesus, I can't help but think of C.S. Lewis, how he was in a very similar place, you know, having befriended J.R.R. Tolkien at the end of the, in the 1920s,

and sort of stumbling in a very similar way, some of the names you've mentioned, stumbling forward, not clear where it's going, uncomfortable with some parts of it. And then, of course, in the famous evening on Addison's Walk with Tolkien and Hugo Dyson, somehow putting it together and saying,

okay, I have appreciated these Norse myths. Why do I appreciate these myths? What does it speak to in me? If I'm honest, what does it speak to? There's something beyond the material. There's something. There's something. And that enabled him to say, okay, if I'm going to go along those lines, then maybe I can accept the story of Jesus.

It's fascinating to me. I guess I'm wondering about people like Stephen Fry, the famous UK, the famous UK atheist, an actor. Russell Brand, of course, has, he has been baptized as a Christian. Have you had any opportunity to talk to him or anyone who knows him? I'm fascinated by. I haven't personally been able to be able to speak to Russell Brand about that, though it would be fascinating to get the inside story. But I've been seeing his journey from afar,

and it's been interesting to see the way he has gradually edged his way closer and closer through kind of a very kind of general esoteric view of religion and mysticism and spirituality to suddenly, apparently being captivated by the story of Jesus specifically. One interesting detail of that is that one of the people who baptized him in the River Thames is Bear Grills, who's well-known TV adventurer from the UK, who is actually himself a very committed Christian. And so it's evident that there's obviously been a number of people in his life who have obviously been talking to him and having an effect on him. I mean, speaking of well-known personalities, though, coming to the faith, really I've,

I felt like the thesis of the book. So the book came out in September 2023. But to a large degree, the thesis of the book started to be proved in real time when Ian Hersi Ali declared. Actually, okay, when we come back, we'll talk about Ian Horsi. Forgive me, folks talking to Justin Barley. Don't go away. Folks, welcome back. Before we continue, we want to remind you of our friends at CSI.

I just want to encourage anybody who's listening to go to metaxis talk.com to click on the banner and to give to free slaves in Sudan. This is a real thing. CSI has boots on the ground. They are there. They have made it possible. Try to imagine that they're in a world where slavery is legal. CSI has gone there to work with these people who are literally slaveholders and to say to them, we want to give you this cattle vaccine. We want to help you to figure out how you can free these slaves. And we can take these slaves and make them free and set them up in a life of freedom. This is what CSI does. But they need your help.

They need you, you to go to metaxis talk.com and to give. give what you can. You can give monthly. If you prefer to give monthly, give a little bit monthly or just give a lot right away. Whatever you can do, it doesn't get better than this. So I just want to encourage you to do that. Please, today, this is just something we do for a few weeks. And this is the month we're doing it. We need your help. We want to free as many slaves as we can. Think about what I'm saying, folks. Think about this. So I think as of today, people listening to this program have given enough to free 77 human beings. It's $250 to free a person that set them up in a life of slavery. That's just so you have the facts. So it's very important that everybody

participate. Most of you have not. And I just want to say, please do it today. Please do it today. Go to metaxis talk.com. I'll give you the phone number in a few minutes before we move on with program. Actually, I'll give you the phone number now. It's 888-253-3522. 8-88-253-3522. I'll mention it at the end of the segment. I also want to remind you, we have friends at the Herzog Foundation. These are heroes, folks. These are heroes. What they're doing, they are encouraging parents, okay, to get their kids the best education they can either in a classical Christian school or homeschooling, they help you do it. They help you. If you're saying, I don't know, I don't think I could do this. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. And the Herzog Foundation will make it very simple for you to do this,

to figure out what's best for your kids. Go to Herzogfoundation.com. Herzogfoundation.com. really, this is a movement. And the Herzog Foundation, they're at the forefront of this movement. So I'm thrilled that they're partnering with us on this program, Hertzog Foundation.com. Everywhere I go, I meet homeschoolers and I go, you know what, they are the future of this country.

If we have a future, which I think we will, but this is the investment we're making. I also want to remind you of our friends at the Alliance, sorry, Americans for Prosperity, wherever we mentioned Americans for Prosperity, we mentioned that they've got the website, Bidinomics.com. You've got to check it out.

I just find it hilarious that Americans for Prosperity has bought the website, Bidenomics.com. So on the website, they talk about what the Biden administration has claimed, usually bold lies. And then they talk about the economic realities. So they've got a tour going on called prosperity is possible this summer.

They're really just speaking truth about the economy and where we are and the reality. And then they're looking for common sense solutions, which pretty much everybody but the Biden administration is also looking for. So check it out. Okay. If you haven't called the number, you can go to metaxistalk.com for CSI or call 888-253-3522. 888-252. Thank you.