The Eric Metaxas Show - Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt

Episode Date: March 12, 2020

Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt brings a powerful message of how forgiveness opens us up to healing, hope and a new world of possibilities, which are part of personal accounts from her book, "The Gift of Forgiveness."

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I tell all my relatives to take it. relief factor.com. Children all over the world love Eric, except for one 10-year-old girl named Ramona. She can't stand, Eric, and she's not afraid to say so. Okay, I admit it. I am Ramona. I hate you, Eric.

I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, infinity. Oh, yeah, and here you are. I mean, here he is Eric Mattaxas. You know, Todd, you don't wear well as the years pass. No. You're fatiguing. I want to end on a I wanted to start on a bummer of a note because we've got no place to go but up. Folks, actually, this is such an exciting show.

Listen carefully because you're not going to believe it. Ready? Number one, in a couple of minutes, we have the daughter of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Wow. Coming on to the program. She's also the daughter of Maria Shriver, and she's married to the actor, Chris Pratt. I was going to say John Barrymore, but he died like in 1960. Oh, okay.

Chris Pratt. So she's going to be on the program. She has a book on forgiveness. She's absolutely lovely. She's going to be here for the whole hour and probably into the second hour. Yeah. In hour two, we've got Jeremy Camp, the dreamy-eyed, that dreamboat singer, Jeremy Camp has a movie coming out this weekend.

He's going to be on the program. Jeremy Camp and then after that the Piaz de resistance we are going to open the cage and unleash the Zmirak when John Zmirak when John Zmirak is in the studio folks

everything gets shut down there's nobody like John's Merec so today we've got an embarrassment of riches we've got Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt we've got Jeremy Camp and then we've got John's Merrick it's sheer lunacy

unbelievable it's lunacy okay now tomorrow we're going to do Ask Metaxus. People can ask me questions, and I will answer them if I'm in the mood. Okay. And then we've got Matt Walsh. He's a big deal. He's going to be on the program.

A lot of great stuff. Next week we have Ken Fish. He's back. He's a big phony. I just discovered that. Really? Yeah. Oh, what a fraud.

He's a fraud. That's too bad. I'll probably have him on the program as often as possible anyway, just because I like him as a friend. Sure. I like him as a friend. Throw him a bone. No, he is, Ken Star. I mean, Ken Fish is one of these people that, if I hadn't met him, I don't know what I would think of this stuff.

But now that I know him, I said, I've got to share this with my audience because there are a lot of people who have questions about the supernatural. And Ken is the opposite of a fraud. He's the real deal. Right. And you've been to some of his ministries. I've been to some of his ministries. Yeah. And he cast a Jezebelic spirit out of my wife.

Did I tell you about that? No. Oh, my gosh. Wow, that's wonderful. Yeah. But she's still just as mean as she ever was. Just kidding. Now, she's sitting in the audience, so I've got to refer to Portisian.

He doesn't have to work on my wife because my life is an angel. But we got Ken Fish. We got a lot of great stuff coming up. But today alone, we have, I still can't believe. We have Kevin Scherznegger Pratt, Jeremy Camp, and Johns Merrick. But actually, before we go there, we have a couple of announcements to make. We're going to announce the winner. Every week we do this.

We have a food for the poor winner. And this is anybody who gives the food for the poor. Any amount. We pick a name out of a hat. And that person gets a ton of signed books from us, a ton, not literally, but a lot. And you get to visit the studio. We have food here. We have, we can make you a, Albin, you'd make them a sandwich if they show up, right?

And you can bring your family. Bring your own bread, though. You know, because I don't. Yeah, actually bring your own bread. And we have limited condiments. I feel like I need to say that. Okay, yes. Also, if you can't come to New York, if you win this big prize and you can't come to New York,

you can send friends. You can say, hey, you're going to New York. You can stop in and bug Albin and Eric. We'd love to have you, and you can bring a group of people. This is not one person. So we announce that every week. I'm going to announce that in just a minute, this week's winner. But before I do that, I want to remind you what we're talking about.

We're talking about food for the poor. We're doing an outreach to help families in Guatemala that are really struggling. I have to say this is, it's hard to fathom that people in our own hemisphere are living in severe poverty and dealing with malnutrition. Their families in the hills of Guatemala, just three hour dry from Guatemala City, they have nothing. They don't have water. Imagine having to drink water that you know is not safe. That's dirty. You can get parasites.

This should not be happening. Here's the good news. We can do something about it. If you go to our website Metaxistalks Talk.com, you'll see the banner for food for the poor. And you click on it. Anything you give, you're entered into this contest. We know you're not giving for that. But just so you know, it doesn't matter what you're.

you give. We want everyone to give something. But if you give $80, that is enough for food for the poor to feed a kid for an entire year. Try to think of that, a whole year for 80. $320 feeds a family of four for an entire year, plus water for a lifetime because they are drilling wells and they're giving them clean water. Very important work. If you're not able to give $320 as a family, what if you said, what if we give $27 a month? That adds up to $320 a year. And you as a family could do that every month. And it's a way to teach your kids your values. It's a way to say to your kids, hey, we are really blessed. And the Bible says we're blessed to be a blessing. And so we should always give something of what we have to those who can't. That's all through scripture in many

different ways. And you can't just say, oh, we tie that church or whatever. This is above and beyond that. But $27 a month feeds a family of four for an entire year. And I just want to say getting your kids involved gives something out of their allowance or out of the, if they have a job, or just to give a little something and then you the parents can make up the rest. And every month you can do this. It's a beautiful thing. Now, food for the poor, there are lots of people who go on these mission trips with food for the poor. We have Natalie. She is a junior in high school in Nashville, Tennessee. I want to hear about her visit. to food for the poor. I was actually pretty nervous. I might not be able to connect with the

children because of the language barrier. But the second family we met, I just fell in love with this little girl named Camila. She placed two of her very own stickers on my hands. And it just struck me because even in her own despair and desperation and not having anything at all, she was still giving something to me. I just feel like we can take something from that and even in our abundance. If she can give her two little stickers to me, we can. can give back to their community. I love this. This is beautiful stuff.

And folks, go to our website, metaxistalkis.com. You can click on the banner. I'm not talking about my website. My website is ericmetaxis.com. There's all kinds of stuff there. You can sign up for the newsletter. But to give, you have to go to metaxis talk.com. And I want to say that every single week we're going to be drawing a winner.

We just drew the winner for this week. Are you ready for this album? Yes, I'm ready. The winner for this week. uh is in crest view florida crestview florida the winner is steve booser steve booser come on down come and when you do come tell us what that kind of a name is boozer come on oh no seriously that's a real name it is and uh it's actually a famous name um boozer steve booser from crestview florida is the winner now this means that you steve you can come to the studio you can bring your family

you can bring friends. We're going to send you a ton of books. We'll announce this again tomorrow, just because we're so excited that when people like Steve give, we want to thank you, and we want to thank all of you. This is the best way that we can do it. Now, Albin, we've got so much else to communicate that I guess there was a letter.

I'm going to read a letter. Can I read this letter? Got a short letter there. Yep. All right. And this is before Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt comes on. The letter says, Eric and Albin, just to let you know, as much as I enjoy your interviews, it was equally

inspiring to hear the answers to ask metaxis. We're going to be doing that tomorrow. And to listen to the fun facts about the 44 presidents and the photos and the story about avocados. Just the price alone was newsworthy. Yeah, actually, I still can't believe that. We could go there right now and find out what is he charging for avocados today. We'll have to check that out later today.

Albin, this person writes, this is Carolyn Billington, says, Albin, I'm glad your wife is having you eat healthy, Albin, as I hope you're around for a long time. And I agree with Eric that your characters, Albin, in the Christmas show, were the best. Wow. God bless the work of your hands, Chicago suburb fan, Carolyn Billington. We love getting letters like this. Thank you for writing. Especially me. Especially you.

She's really buttering you up. Oh, she is. But you know what? We are going to go to a break. When we come back, we're going to be talking to the daughter of Arnold Schwarzenegger. She's got a beautiful book out on forgiveness. After that, we've got Zmirak, we've got all kinds of stuff. Please don't go away.

If you change your mind on the first in line, honey, I'm still free. Take a chance on me. If you need me, let me know. I'm going to be around. If you got no place to go. Hey there, folks. I would love to continue listening to Abba. You know I would, but I can't because I have a talk show to do.

And in the studio with me is Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. Welcome to the program. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Now, Schwarzenegger, that name is so familiar. Where have I heard that before? No idea. Right?

There's nobody on the planet named Schwarzenegger except you and your father and whoever you're related to. It's not exactly a common name. It is not. And in German or Austrian, it's even more. intimidating. Yeah. Schwarzenegger. Yeah. Okay. You're you're you're the daughter of Arnold Schwarzenegger and you are also the daughter of Maria Shriver. Yes, I am. And you're the wife of Chris Pratt. Yes, I am. Are you sure? I am sure. You're sure? I am sure. Well, you've got the kind of Kennedy Teets. So I do. I'm believing some of this. It's great to meet you. Thank you.

wonderful to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm a fan of your whole family. And let me say that I'm a particular fan of your book and the subject of your book, which I read yesterday, The Gift of Forgiveness, inspiring stories from those who have overcome the unforgivable. Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt, what led you to write a book like this?

Because this is a big topic for almost everybody. Yeah, well, it is a topic for everyone. And it's a topic that every single person will come face to face with. some point in their lives. And so I found myself struggling with forgiveness in my 20s, especially, and just not really clear on what forgiveness meant to me at that time in my life. And so I kind of wanted to take a deeper dive into it. And I found the most helpful advice from just talking to other people about their forgiveness journeys and kind of learning from their struggles and their journeys and applying it to my own life. So I wanted to put that in a book for everybody else.

It's interesting because I want to write a book about clinging to bitterness. Because that's really worked for me. It motivates me just to crush those who hurt me. Crush them. I live to crush them. No, but in all seriousness, the longer you live, the more you realize you can't escape this question of whether I forgive or don't. And I have often said very often that people don't seem to understand what forgiveness really is. What does it mean to forgive?

What doesn't it mean when Jesus says, love your enemies? he clearly doesn't mean have warm, soapy feelings, lovey-dovey feelings to your enemies. If somebody has wronged you grievously, he can't mean that. What does he mean? So how did you approach this, the very idea of defining what it means to forgive and what's healthy forgiveness and what's not healthy? Well, I think the great part and also really complicated part of that question is that forgiveness means something different to every single one of us. So it's so, such a unique topic.

And I think similar to what you were saying about Jesus, it's, you know, this whole concept of forgiving and forgetting or forgiving and not forgetting. And does that mean that you've actually practiced forgiveness if you, you know, choose to forgive someone and not forget what they've done and or, you know, have the person in your life still or create healthy boundaries? So it's really, as you'll see in this book with different people's experiences and journeys, it's really up to every single person how they choose to manage their forgiveness. journey, but it's unique to every single person. You hear this over and over to the point that it's a fatiguing cliche, except it's true that when we forgive, we're freeing ourselves. Yes. What do you say to somebody who says, look, I was wronged incredibly grievously,

and I cannot stop hating that person. And it feels right. It feels just to hate them for what they did. because it's so evil what they did. What are you telling me that I ought to do with those feelings? Well, I would say that that's okay, first of all, because I know that there are a lot of people who feel that way. So if somebody said that to me, I would say that's totally understandable.

I get it. That's totally okay. Number one. Number two, I also like to remind people that just because I wrote this book on forgiveness and I'm very honored to have been able to write it and listen to people's stories that I'm not an expert on forgiveness by any means, I'm just here to be able to say that I've been lucky enough to practice forgiveness in my life. I'm a student of forgiveness, so I know I will struggle with it in my future.

And these people in this book have also practiced it and talk about this, as you just said, this cliche saying, which is that when you're able to practice forgiveness, you feel this amazing sense of freedom and weight lifted off your shoulders. So, you know, there are a lot of people who feel like practicing forgiveness feels like a betrayal of their own hurt, which I think is, you know, kind of what you're saying, that if you choose to forgive someone, that it almost makes what they did to you okay, and that feels wrong because this anger towards someone or this frustration might drive you in your life, and also not having that as a presence might feel like what they did wasn't actually that bad.

So it's a complicated topic, and that theme comes up a lot in the book. It is interesting because I think when you're talking about justice, people want justice, and that makes sense. but sometimes, I mean, you know, you, it's like if you're in law school and they give you these different cases and they say, well, okay, what about if the person that did that to you dies? Right. You cannot, you can't put them in jail. You can't hurt them. They're gone.

So you have to deal with that and you have to think about it practically speaking. What are you looking for? What's the outcome you're looking for? Right. And also, what are you looking for from them that you are able to, you are able to, you. eventually shift to you being able to look at yourself and give that gift to yourself, because it's actually not about another person at all, which for me was such an eye-opening thing to realize that I think so many of us grow up with this idea that we need to wait for the person

who wronged us to ask us for forgiveness and come around to saying, like, oh, actually what I did to them was probably not the greatest thing. So, you know, please will you forgive me? And what I realized, and the people in this book really taught this to me, was that making a decision to forgive someone is totally up to you and has nothing to do with waiting for anybody. You can take that power and control back yourself and make the decision to do it. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. The one example that I owe in, by the way, you have lots of amazing stories in here, some of which I was familiar with and others that were completely brand new to me. And we can go over some of those. But what I was going to say is the example I always think of, because it's helpful to think

about these examples. When before you were born, Pope John Paul II was shot by someone, but you've heard of Pope John Paul II. Awesome. Even though you weren't born, that's impressive. Thank you. So when he was shot, it's just so interesting that the man who shot him, you know, goes to prison and then Pope John Paul II goes to the prison to forgive him and to pray with him. But that doesn't mean the guy gets out of prison. And that's to me part of this, right, is that you understand that it is complicated. There are times when, by committing a murder, someone has effectively committed a crime against the whole society. So you have the power to forgive them for what they did to you. Yes. But you don't have the power to say, okay, now you're free to go. Because there is

a societal justice that says, no, you're going to stay in prison. Of course. And also to see, as you're saying, this ripple effect that forgiveness has on those around the situation. It's really interesting because in the book, you see that with a lot of situations, how, you know, one person's act of forgiveness has this ripple effect on multiple people, sometimes thousands of people, situations that, you know, would not have been possible had the person not chosen to forgive. I always think, it's hard for me to think of forgiveness outside of the worldview of my Christian faith, because I think to myself, I have been forgiven by God. And because he's forgiven me, I have an obligation to forgive others. He's forgiven me so much. And I think that when you have that kind of humility,

you can approach those who've harmed you in a different way. You can pray for them. But I don't know where someone goes if they don't have that sense of God. I know in the book, you talk to all different kinds of people. At that point, does it just become a practical thing? Well, it was important to me to have people who had faith as being a big part of their lives, others who had come to faith through their forgiveness journey, and some people who didn't really have it as being a part of their lives. I, you know, have grown up with faith being a big part of my life. So for me, it's something that I can lean on and also believe in a higher power and higher being when going through challenging times. So I find it to be incredibly helpful, of course. But I think people have

having faith and also having a belief to pull them through challenging situations is really helpful. And a lot of people in the book talk about that. But it was important to me to get a good variety of different takes on that. And what do you say to the idea that somebody says, you know, I'm going to forgive you, but I don't want to hang out with you anymore. Like we don't need, because there's a couple of cases like that. And I've experienced that where you forgive somebody in your heart and you really pray for them and you wish them well. Yeah.

But that doesn't mean you have some obligation to be palling around with them anymore. Right. Right. Yeah. And I've also experienced that. And it made me think when I was doing that, have I actually not forgiven that person because I don't want them in my life anymore? And it's a complicated situation. But for me, I really look at it as being able to forgive someone. You can love them from afar, pray for them, want nothing but the best for them. But because you want to have boundaries in your life that are healthy boundaries. See, that's the other issues, the whole boundaries thing. We're going to talk about that when we come back. I'm talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. The new book is called The Gift of Forgiveness, inspiring stories from those who've overcome the unforgivable. Don't go away. Hey there, folks.

That's Chicago. I'm Eric. I'm talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt, who's in the studio. And you brought like a whole posse of people here. Let me ask you a question. Who do you think you are? We normally charge a lot of money for these seats to get a front row seat at these conversations. Everyone is so lucky.

Well, I'll let it go. I'll forgive you since you're talking about forgiveness. Now, forgiveness is such a big issue because, I think that as a Christian, it is at the very heart of the faith. And it was the idea to forgive the unforgivable or whatever. It makes no human sense. It has to have some kind of a divine aspect to it, I guess. And I've been most moved when I have seen people like those Amish girls that were killed, this is just a few years ago. And when that community chose to forgive the killer. I mean, the whole world just, I think,

weeps when you hear that, you think, is that even possible? Who are these people? Yeah. And then you realize they really must believe in something huge to be able to do that. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you see that in a lot of the stories. I think Chris Williams speaks really beautifully on that because he, you know, got into a terrible car accident and lost his whole family or almost all of his whole family. And he talks about hearing a voice that he believes is God that told him to let it go in that moment of that car. So it's definitely a big presence in a lot of people's lives. Oh, yeah. I know there's, there are a number of really beautiful stories in here. That's one that I, that I remember, because some of this makes no human sense. The most human natural thing to do is

to hate, to want revenge. That's the normal natural thing to do. Totally. Yes. And so when you hear these other stories, you, I guess this is my way of saying that it seems to me that this kind of thing is the most powerful apologetic for Christian faith. Because when you see it, you just go, whoa. Like, I don't even know how to, I don't know how to process that. Right. Yeah. And I think that that's like I also found myself when interviewing these people, I found myself having that same reaction, which was like, how is it possible? How is that possible to forgive?

I mean, the things that have happened to so many people in this book and also just in life in general, and people are able to find compassion and empathy and in their heart to forgive is an incredible thing. Yeah, I mean, I think it also comes with a sense of humility, which also comes with a sense of reality, right? Now, if you think that you're really great, then you don't think that you've done anything wrong and you don't really have much impetus.

And there are people like that who have that kind of attitude. And they're always talking about what other people have done to them. But if you have some sense of what you've done to hurt other people, it is a little. Because none of us are perfect. So we've all been in situations where we've hurt someone or we felt hurt by another person's behavior or actions. So to be aware of that and self-aware is obviously a great thing.

But not everybody has that. Well, yeah. And I think I want to applaud you for writing the book because I think that we need to talk more about this and we need to get this out there. I think that there are tons of people who will read this book whose lives will be changed. And, you know, what an amazing thing that you could write a book and that it will affect people. it goes right to that place of pain that so many people are walking around with. They don't know what to do with it. Well, it's interesting.

And thank you so much for saying that because that's the greatest compliment ever. My hope is always that if somebody can read this book and feel not alone in their forgiveness journey or feel like they're inspired to practice forgiveness in their own lives, then I feel like my job is done there. But I think that there's just so many different types of forgiveness in this book. And it is, it's also a great learning lesson from different people in this book that you never know what someone's going through, walking down the street or standing in line at a coffee shop. And, you know, people act and behave certain ways. And even people that I've known for a really long time when I would say to them, oh, I'm working on this book on forgiveness, the reactions and responses that I would get were really eye-opening for me because people, I would sit down at dinner and people that I've known for several years, I would tell them that I'm working on this book and some would burst into tears. Others would get really, really quiet and go back to a moment in their past where someone had wronged them that they still were hanging on to 20 or 30 years later.

Other people were in the midst of struggling with forgiveness that I had no idea they were going through. And a lot of people, you know, put this presentation on like everything is going so well in their lives. And the reality is that they're actually really struggling. So I think that this book also, you know, one of course, course, the goal is to teach people about forgiveness and inspire them to practice forgiveness in their lives, but also it teaches people to live their lives with a little bit more empathy and kindness for the journey of life that we're all going on together. Well, you know, as I say, to put this out there to be public about this, it's like a public service because there are tons of people.

They're just looking for something, but they don't know where to go, and they don't know how to, And you've framed it well because it's not overly religious or whatever. This is like a book for everybody. And I think that that's important. We were talking earlier about your husband, Chris Pratt, and how he's been public about his faith. And I feel the same way that when somebody is public about their faith, it gives tons of people strength to say, oh, like, if he's public about his faith,

maybe I can be a little bit more public about my faith. And it's kind of important. Yeah. You know? Yeah, no, it's very important. And, you know, I grew up with faith being a really big part of my life. I come from a very big Irish Catholic family. Really?

So it's something that, you know, I've always talked about with my family and my close friends. And I think him talking about it on a public level has definitely helped a huge amount of people who have, you know, religion as a part of their lives and faith as a part of their lives and want to get more comfortable being open and honest about that because it's, it is such a big gift and a blessing in all of. our lives. So to be able to talk about it openly is a great thing. Yeah, it's huge stuff. So kudos to him. I'd marry that man if he weren't already married. Hey, we're going to be right back. Are we going to a break? Okay, we'll be right back, folks, talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. Hey there, folks, that's the Hughes Corporation. We play there for the young people. All right. I'm talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt about her book, The Gift of Forgiveness. Catherine, I don't want to make you uncomfortable, but be honest. Can you tell that I'm wearing a horse hair

wig. Be honest. I don't care. I could take it. No, you can't tell. You can't tell. Thank you. All right. Because you know what? If you're going to spend money on a horse hair wig, you just want it. It's worth the investment to get a good, a well-fitted wig. And that's good for you. All right. Well, thank you. All right. So let's talk about something more important. Your book. In your book, you've got all of these stories. A few of them I recognize. The Ron Hall story. What was the name of that book? Same kind of different as me. Yes. That's an unbelievable story. Yes.

But there are few in here. What are some of the ones in here that people would be familiar with? I think Elizabeth Smart is someone, you know, that people... Yeah, that was the first one, right? Yeah, remember that case very well. I think Tanya Brown is Nicole Brown-Simson's sister. Right. So people remember that trial in that situation very well.

Sebastian Maraquin is actually not that well known, but his father is Pablo Escobar. So people are very... His father is Pablo Escobar. Yeah. So people are very familiar with that name. See, most of us, our fathers are not Pablo Escobar. Right. It's kind of interesting.

I know. I know. Wow. Right. There was one in here that I wanted to ask you about. Now I'm going to forget. When you mentioned the story of Elizabeth Smart, is that her name? Yes.

I kind of forgotten the details of that. She was like 14. She's kidnapped. She's raped daily for like nine months. Yeah. And then she manages to get over. that and to forgive that. And I think, you know, it's important also that you have parents that are helping you with that. Because you can see how some parents would never be able to let go of that.

Of course. Of course. I think anybody who has kids, I'm sure, would be hearing this story and think, you know, I couldn't do that or maybe, you know, some feel like they could. But her parents were actually really helpful for her when she was later returned home. Her parents said to her when she got home, you know, these people have taken so much from you already, don't allow them to take one more second of your happiness and your future moving forward. And that's where she talks a lot about her being able to practice forgiveness. And I actually talked to her, I think it was a week or 10 days after they had announced that the, her female captor was being released early. So it was a very, I went into the interview not really knowing what to expect. Because also, you know, some people,

for a lot of people forgiveness and the decision to forgive someone can be a one and done situation. And for a lot of us like myself, it's an ongoing process. So I wasn't really sure where she was in that. And would her forgiveness decision have been shaky at all with this new decision to have someone released? So it was an interesting conversation with her. When you talk about Nicole Simpson's sister, Tanya Brown, you say that her parents, and this makes sense, that at some point, and I'm trying to think of

their names, but I mean, we've seen them a million times, you know, the father with a huge handlebar mustache and the glasses and whatever, that they became fixtures, but that they eventually went to church to deal with this. I don't know what kind of church or whatever, but that, you know, that wasn't widely publicized and they have a Jewish surname, so I would never dream that they would go to a church. but that, to find healing that they did that. Right. I think it's you reaching a certain point, and there are people, you know, in this book and also just in life in general that I've talked to

who do reach a certain point of feeling lost or helpless in certain situations and, you know, turning towards their faith or finding some faith to help pull them through that and give them a hope there. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, so many of us, we all, we all have things. in our lives. But, you know, thinking of something like what they went through, it's very hard to fathom how you would process that. And obviously, there are people who can't.

They break. Of course. It ruins their lives. It consumes them. 100%. So it's wonderful to think that people have been through something that horrible could find a way through. Yeah, she also talked about, you know, which I think is interesting coming from a large

family, the different dynamics. a family that, you know, it takes different amounts of time for people to heal in different ways. So she talked in the section about, you know, she has other sisters and how they are on very different pages when it comes to their forgiveness journey. They're at very different places in their forgiveness journey. So I think that part of it is also interesting to know that they, you know, have a big family and that, you know, losing a member of your family is obviously tragic. terrible thing, and each of them have taken their own time to deal with forgiveness, struggle with

it, and some still struggling. You tell the story of a gymnast in here. Her name was not familiar to me. Sarah Klein. Sarah Klein. Right. She was one of those who'd been abused over the years by Larry Nassar. Yes.

And that's an amazing story. I mean, I think because, you know, when you're talking about forgiveness, you're talking about ultimate things. You're really talking about evil. What is evil? And what can what can possess someone? I don't mean that literally, but to to do the kinds of things that some of the people do that require forgiveness. I mean, it's it's unimaginable, thank goodness to most of us. What would it be like to live an entire life of deception? And it seems to me that on some weird level, you'd have to feel sorry for the person because they are so deeply messed up that I would imagine they don't even know who they are. They can't begin to know who they are if they've been deceiving themselves and others for years.

Yeah, and her story is an incredible one. And I think obviously the case, the Larry Nasser cases were really public for so many of us who recognize that whole situation. But she, you know, was very close to Larry Nasser. So it was a really challenging topic for her to talk about and a very emotional one and one that she really talked about as being an ongoing journey for her. Because she has moments where she's confronted with these trigger moments that take you back to feeling angry or upset. And I think it's totally understandable. And she talks openly about that, which I think is helpful for people. Well, that's the question is that if you look at somebody not just as a monster, but as a human being,

even if they've done something monstrous, you still recognize, well, they're made in the image of God, and that someplace in there is someone that God loves in spite of the horrors that they've done. And so when you know somebody, it's more difficult in some ways to demonize them, just shut them off in that way. We're going to be right back. We're talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. The Gift of Forgiveness is the book. Nothing is really wrong.

Feeling like I don't belong. Hey folks, this Eric Mitraxas show. I hate to interrupt that music. I really do. But Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt is in the studio, and we really need to talk. People will feel shortchanged if we just listen to the group of tune in it. I just want to take a moment to make fun of the blurbs on the back of your book. Great.

Because they are such big deal names that it's just hilarious. Now, I know Roma Downey, and I know Gretchen Carlson, but you've got Jamie Lee Curtis on here. Come on. Really? She's big in the forgiveness space. Is it true? In the forgiveness space? There's a space now? Yeah.

I mean, when you do two and a half years of research on forgiveness, there's a big space for it. I guess so. Does she have a story that we're not aware of? No, she just talks openly about forgiveness being a big part of, you know, sobriety and her life. Okay. And so she was a great person to talk. talk to about, you know, this book. And you have Rob Lowe on here? I do. Is this just for comic effect? What is this? What's your issue, Catherine?

No, it's another 12-step program. I know. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, it's just fine. And you have Jenna Bush-Hager. Yes. Obviously, the daughter of W-Dubya. In California, do you refer to him as W? Sure. Huh? Do you call him W-Dubya? No, I just imagine living in California, you don't have many friends that love W-Dub. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, well, maybe I want you as president. I think I keep forgetting your father was a Republican governor of the state. I know. My mom's a Democrat, so I have a happy medium. Never mind. Well, but you know what, though, your mom's Democrat, but, you know, because we talked earlier that I had interviewed, is it your cousin, Caroline?

Is she your cousin? Yes. It's interesting because when you think of JFK Democrats, it's a really different world than AOC Democrat. You know what I mean? Well, me, it's changed so much, obviously, over time. and I think that my mom is actually now even independent because it's just... She's not a socialist? No.

It's just so the times have changed so much. I mean, even from when my dad ran and I was, you know, in high school and I would remember the conversations at the dinner table between the two of them and just about, you know, what he was dealing with as governor. It's crazy to see, you know, the politics now are just so different. So you say governor. You don't say governator. I don't.

No, I know it's shocking, right? I was expecting you to say governorator. Oh, okay. I just had a respect for the old man. Let me ask you. But it is funny, though, also coming from a Catholic background. I mean, the life issue, you're, is it your, I'm trying to think who, which relatives, which Shriver. I have a lot of relatives.

No, no, I know, but I'm saying the ones who started the Special Olympics. Oh, my grandmother. She started Special Olympics. Your grandmother. You know, this are folks who value life so much. Then when you start talking about the unborn, there is just no question where they're going to come out on that issue. Right. And it's become very tough for people in the Democratic Party.

Like it wasn't always that way. That's kind of my point. So I wanted to end on a socially divisive note and I've succeeded. No. So we're going to keep you around for one more segment. Great. If it's okay with you, we're going to talk about your book. I love that.

Would that be okay with you? Yeah, that'd be great. All right. You don't move. Folks, thanks for listening. We'll be right back. Final segment with Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt.