The Eric Metaxas Show - Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt (Encore)

Episode Date: March 27, 2020

Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt brings a powerful message of how forgiveness opens us up to healing, hope and a new world of possibilities, which are part of personal accounts from her book, "The Gift of Forgiveness." (Encore Presentation)

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I tell all my relatives to take it. relief factor.com. Hey, for you Eric Mataxis trivia buffs out there, Eric's Secret Service codename is El Jerko. Please make note of it. And now the man who'll deny it, but it's true anyway. Here's El Jerko himself.

My friend Eric Mataxis. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. This is another, as you can see, another bunker video edition of the program. In a few minutes, we're going to have a normal interview in our gorgeous studio,

with the daughter of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Not only that, she's also the daughter of Maria Shriver of the Kennedy clan. And if that's not enough, she's married to the actor Chris Pratt. I don't know if this is possible, but the only reason I know we're able to air this today is because we aired it about two weeks ago. And it was so awesome,

we thought we'd air it again today on Friday as an encore. Albin and James and Chris, you approved this. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's just amazing. It's about forgiveness. And I want to tell you, it was amazing. So I hope that you enjoy it. And even if you heard it before, I hope you listen again. So that's in a couple of minutes. In hour two today, we're doing another encore with our friend Greg Lorry, who tells stories about Johnny Cash that you won't believe. We'll talk about that later. Okay, so Alvin, we have a big announcement today, don't we? We do. The winner, the grand prize winner for Food for the Poor. And if you want me to announce it now, I'll deal.

Now, where did I put the name? Oh, boy. Can we announce it later? That way I can dig up the name somewhere. I think I know the name. You do. Is it Celeste Johnson? Yes.

Of Litits PA. That's right. Litits PA. That's right. Litits PA. L-I-T-I-T-Z, PA. I'm from PA, and I'm not, I've never heard of it, but she has, obviously. Are you sure you're pronouncing that correctly? Yeah, lit-it, why not?

Okay, I'm going to let it go. Okay, thank you. I don't want to explore the different pronunciation possibilities for that town in Pennsylvania. But we are pronouncing Celeste correctly. Oh, yeah. And Johnson, that could be a made-up name. We don't know. We like to make up names because we don't want.

stalkers to stock these big winners. Now, what you're telling the audience, Albin, is that food for the poor, we're doing this monthly, I'm sorry, this month we're doing a fundraiser for families in Guatemala that are dealing with malnutrition. And we said that anyone who gives every week, we're going to have a grand prize winner. And this week, it's Celeste. Now, what does Celeste win? Can you tell our audience what Celeste has won? She wins a bunch of books signed by the office. author, that's Eric Metax's books signed by the author. And I do believe the new one is going to be part of that collection. So that's a lot. I'll find books by me, Hamster Holmes books, okay, and other authors, and plus there might be a t-shirt, there might be a hat, there might be

stickers in there, a big box of great stuff. A lot of swag from our archives. But most of it is loaded down with coronavirus. So we're going to have to clean it all. and put it in the microwave to blast away the germs before we send it. And by the way, we're not... Oh, wait, that's not all she wins. No? Oh, a visit to the studio. No?

Something else? Alvin, I counted on you. Yes, of course a visit to the studio. That's the big thing. Okay. No? Yes. That's the big thing.

That's worth a lot of money. People can't just come into our studio. In fact, we can't even come into the studio because it's shut down. because of the coronavirus. But the point is that Celeste can come to the studio and bring as many friends and family as she likes. And if it turns out that Celeste can't come or doesn't want to come, she can tell friends who are coming to New York or people who live in New York and send them in her place.

That's, we're just generous that way. We're flexible and really boils down. We just don't care. Right. We don't care. We love people. That's the point. We love people.

So that's the Grand Prize winner. Food for the Poor, those of you who have generously given, I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you. This is serious. I mean, we're all going through really tough stuff right now. But the idea that during this time, some of us would find it in our hearts to be generous and give to the folks at Food for the Poor so that they can help these families in rural Guatemala, who are the, you know, you want to use the word epicenter. It's the epicenter of malnutrition in the Western Hemisphere. that's how poor they are, that's how difficult it is for them to feed their kids. So you're doing something glorious, wonderful, and very generous. And we don't care what you give. Anything you give, we're really grateful to you. Some people have given $320 to feed a family of four for an entire year. Others have given $80. Others have given less than that.

Others have given much more than that. We're grateful to you. And by the way, this is the last chance, like this weekend, I guess, this month. So if any of you has not yet given, please go to our website, Metaxistalk.com, and please do give. And you can also give monthly. You know, yesterday I was running in Central Park. And I guess I was listening to this program, you know, just to see what we got wrong. And I got to tell you, well, two things.

First of all, I realize that $87 a month, if you want to give $87,000. $87 a month to Food for the Poor when you go to the website at metaxis talk.com, that's $1,000 in a year. Wow. I mean, I was just thinking, people think, wow, $1,000. $87 a month. If you want to give that way, I keep saying it's a great way to encourage your family to give, to say, hey, this month, every month, we're all putting in $10 or whatever it is, and mom and dad will make up the difference. And, you know, to be able to give any amount per month. So I just want to encourage folks.

This is the last chance to go to Metaxistalk.com and check it out. But can I tell you what I also noticed in Central Park yesterday? What? Spring has sprung. It's so beautiful. Tons of people were out. People are checking up on me saying, Eric, you live in New York. Is everything okay?

And I got to tell you yesterday, it was like there were people. It was all, you know, everybody's socially distancing. But there are joggers. there are tons of people on bikes. There are there's jugglers and face painting. Actually, no, there's no jugglers and no face painting. And there's no hayrides. But it's just fun.

It's just amazing. As long as people stay away from each other. Right. Somebody that you've been pre-approved to hang out with, like my wife and daughter, you know, we hang out at home. So I figure we can hang out in the park. But it's just an amazing thing. And it was very beautiful. to be in Central Park yet today and to see all of that.

Oh, yeah, I know here in Terrytown and Sleepy Hollow, there's the Rockefeller Preserve. And a lot of people are out and you're right. All the flowers are in bloom and the squirrels and the chipmunks are out and it's a lot of fun. Yeah. Did you say chipmunks? I did. There are chipmunks on our back deck here, too. I was going to say, aren't they distracting you while you're trying to do your job?

You're here in Funkard, you know, doing an official national radio program. Actually, it's an international program. We check online sometimes. People listen to this podcast from over 80 countries. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. If you're listening to this in a foreign country, email us if you don't mind. MetaxusTalk.com or you can go to my website, Ericmetaxis.com.

Email us. We'd love to hear from you because I know that I checked not long ago. And there were over 80 countries, people who listened to this as a podcast. They can't get it on their radio. And of course, we've got zillions of YouTube listeners all around the country. What else do we need to talk about before we go to Catherine Chorix? We've got a bunker video coming up at the end of this hour before Greg Lorry to take them to the weekend. We've got some exciting stuff.

We've got some actual jokes coming up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'll talk about that for Sadar's radar, I want to talk about that great Garlu that's standing behind me. But what about the movie? the movie No Safe Spaces Yeah Nah it's not that good

Oh okay Dennis Prager's involved with it And you know what I have no use for that guy You know what I'm saying I know I know What an idiot No Dennis Prager

I take it back He's such a good friend I love him so much And I've already said I've already been on the record 100 times saying No Safe Spaces is a great thing to watch

anytime but now people are kind of looking for stuff to watch And you know what We'll talk about that more in the next bunker video following this interview with Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt because I think it's important that people use this time wisely doing things that they can't normally do. And so we want to promote no safe spaces. You can go online and find it.

It is actually fantastic. We're out of time. We're going to be right back with the amazing, beautiful, intelligent Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. And we'll catch you back in our two. If you change your mind. Take a chance. On the first in life, honey, I'm still free. Take a chance on me.

If you need me, let me know. I'm going to be around. If you got no place to go when you're free and me. Hey there, folks. I would love to continue listening to Abba. You know I would, but I can't because I have a talk show to do. And in the studio with me is Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. Welcome to the program.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Now, Schwarzenegger, that name is so familiar. Where have I heard that before? No idea. Right? There's nobody on the planet named Schwarzenegger except you and your father and whoever you're related to. It's not exactly a common name. It is not. And in German or Austrian, it's even more intimidating. Yeah. Schwarzenegger. Okay. You're the daughter of Arnold Schwarzenegger and you are also the daughter of Maria Schreiber. Yes, I am. And you're the wife of Chris Pratt.

Yes, I am. Are you sure? I am sure. I am sure. Well, you've got the kind of Kennedy teeth. I do. I'm believing some of this. It's great to meet you.

Wonderful to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm a fan of your whole family. And let me say that I'm a particular fan of your book and the subject of your book, which I read yesterday, the gift of forgiveness, inspiring stories from those who have overcome the unforgivable. Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt, what led you to write a book like this? Because this is a big topic for almost everybody. Yeah, well, it is a topic for everyone. And it's a topic that every single person will come face to face with at some point in their lives.

And so I found myself struggling with forgiveness in my 20s, especially, and just not really clear on what forgiveness meant to me at that time in my life. and so I kind of wanted to take a deeper dive into it. And I found the most helpful advice from just talking to other people about their forgiveness journeys and kind of learning from their struggles and their journeys and applying it to my own life. So I wanted to put that in a book for everybody else. It's interesting because I want to write a book about clinging to bitterness. Because that's really worth for me.

It motivates me just to crush those who hurt me. Crush them. I live to crush them. No, but in all seriousness, the longer you live, the more you realize you can't escape. this question of whether I forgive or don't. And I have often said very often that people don't seem to understand what forgiveness really is. What does it mean to forgive? What doesn't it mean when Jesus says love your enemies? He clearly doesn't mean have warm, soapy feelings, lovey-dovey feelings to your enemies. If somebody has wrunged you grievously, he can't mean

that. What does he mean? So how did you approach this, the very idea of the very idea of of like defining what it means to forgive and what's healthy forgiveness and what's not healthy. Well, I think the great part and also really complicated part of that question is that forgiveness means something different to every single one of us. So it's such a unique topic. And I think similar to what you were saying about Jesus, it's, you know, this whole concept of forgiving and forgetting or forgiving and not forgetting. And does that mean that you've actually practiced forgiveness if you, you know,

choose to forgive someone and not forget? what they've done or, you know, have the person in your life still or create healthy boundaries. So it's really, as you'll see in this book with different people's experiences and journeys, it's really up to every single person, how they choose to manage their forgiveness journey. But it's unique to every single person. You hear this over and over to the point that it's a fatiguing cliche, except it's true that when we forgive, we're freeing ourselves. Yes. what do you say to somebody who says, look, I was wronged incredibly grievously, and I cannot stop hating that person. And it feels right. It feels just to hate them for what they did because

it's so evil what they did. What are you telling me that I ought to do with those feelings? Well, I would say that that's okay, first of all, because I know that there are a lot of people who feel that way. So if somebody said that to me, I would say that's totally understandable. I get it. that's totally okay. Number one. Number two, I also like to remind people that just because I wrote this book on forgiveness, and I'm very honored to have been able to write it and listen to people's stories that I'm not an expert on forgiveness by any means. I'm just here to be able to say that I've been lucky enough to practice forgiveness in my life. I'm a student of forgiveness, so I know I will struggle with it in my future. And these people in this book have also practiced it and talk about

this, as you just said, this cliche saying, which is that when you're able to practice, forgiveness, you feel this amazing sense of freedom and weight lifted off your shoulders. So, you know, there are a lot of people who feel like practicing forgiveness feels like a betrayal of their own hurt, which I think is, you know, kind of what you're saying, that if you choose to forgive someone that it almost makes what they did to you, okay, and that feels wrong because this anger towards someone or this frustration might drive you in your life. And also not having that as a presence might feel like what they did wasn't actually that bad. So it's, it's a complicated topic, and that theme comes up a lot in the book. It is interesting because I think when you're talking

about justice, people want justice, and that makes sense. But sometimes, I mean, you know, you, it's like if you're in law school and they give you these different cases, and they say, well, okay, what about if the person that did that to you dies? Right. You cannot, you can't put them in jail. You can't hurt them. They're gone. you have to deal with that and you have to think about it practically speaking. What are you looking for? What's the outcome you're looking for? Right. And also what are you looking for from them that you are able to eventually shift to you being able to look at yourself and give that gift to yourself? Because it's actually not about another person at all, which for me was such an eye-opening thing to realize that I think so many of us grow up with this idea that we need to wait for the person who wronged us to ask us for forgiveness and come around to saying like, oh, actually what I did to them was probably not the greatest thing. So, you know, please will you forgive me? And what I realized, and the people in this book really taught this to me, was that making a decision to forgive someone is totally up to you and has

nothing to do with waiting for anybody. You can take that power and control back yourself and make the decision to do it. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. The one example that I owe you, and by the way, you have lots of amazing stories in here, some of which I, uh, I, was familiar with and others that were completely brand new to me. And we can go over some of those. But what I was going to say is the example I always think of, because it's helpful to think about these examples, when before you were born, Pope John Paul II was shot by someone.

But you've heard of Pope John Paul II. Awesome. Even though you weren't born, that's impressive. Thank you. So when he was shot, it's just so. interesting that the man who shot him, you know, goes to prison and then Pope John Paul the second goes to the prison to forgive him and to pray with him. But that doesn't mean the guy gets out of prison. And that's to me part of this, right, is that you understand that it is

complicated. There are times when by committing a murder, someone has effectively committed a crime against the whole society. So you have the power to forgive them for what they did to you. Yes. But you don't have the power. to say, okay, now you're free to go. Because there is a societal justice that says, no, you're going to, you're going to stay in prison. Of course. And also to see, as you're saying, this ripple effect that forgiveness has on those around the situation. It's really interesting because in the book, you see that with a lot of situations, how, you know, one person's act of forgiveness has this ripple effect on multiple people, sometimes thousands of people situations that, you know, would not have been

possible had the person not chosen to forgive? I always think it's hard for me to think of forgiveness outside of the worldview of my Christian faith because I think to myself, I have been forgiven by God and because he's forgiven me, I have an obligation to forgive others. He's forgiven me so much. And I think that when you have that kind of humility, you can approach those who've harmed you in a different way. You can pray for them. But I don't know. know where someone goes if they don't have that sense of God. I know in the book, you talked to all different kinds of people. At that point, does it just become a practical thing? Well, it was important to me to have people who had faith as being a big part of their lives, others who had come to

faith through their forgiveness journey, and some people who didn't really have it as being a part of their lives. I, you know, have grown up with faith being a big part of my life. So for me, it's something that I can lean on and also believe in a higher power and higher being when going through challenging times. So I find it to be incredibly helpful, of course. But I think people having faith and also having a belief to pull them through challenging situations is really helpful. And a lot of people in the book talk about that. But it was important to me to get a good variety of different takes on that. And what do you say to the idea that somebody says, you know, I'm going to forgive you, but I don't want to hang out with you anymore. Like we don't need

because there's a couple of cases like that. And I've experienced that where you forgive somebody in your heart and you really pray for them and you wish them well. Yeah. But that doesn't mean you have some obligation to be paling around with them anymore. Right. Yeah. And I've also experienced that. And it made me think when I was doing that, have I actually not forgiven that person because I

don't want them in my life anymore? Right. And it's a complicated situation. But for me, I really look at it as being able to forgive someone, you can love them from afar, pray for them, want nothing but the best for them. But because you want to have boundaries in your life that are healthy, boundaries. See, that's the other issues, the whole boundaries thing. We're going to talk about that when we come back. I'm talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. The new book is called The Gift of

Forgiveness, inspiring stories from those who've overcome the unforgivable. Don't go away. Hey there, folks. That's Chicago. I'm Eric. I'm talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt, who's in the studio. And you brought like a whole posse of people here. Let me ask you a question. Who do you think you are? We normally charge a lot of money for these seats to get a front row seat at these conversations. Everyone is so lucky. Well, I'll let it go. I'll forgive you since you're talking about forgiveness.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Now, forgiveness is such a big issue because I think that as a Christian, it is at the very heart of the faith. And it's the idea to forgive the unforgivable or whatever. It makes no human sense. It has to have some kind of a divine aspect to it, I guess. And I've been most moved when I have seen people like those Amish girls that were

killed, this is just a few years ago. And when that community chose to forgive the killer, I mean, the whole world just, I think, weeps when you hear that, you think, is that even possible? Who are these people? Yeah. And then you realize they really must believe in something huge to be able to do that. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you see that in a lot of the stories. I think Chris Williams speaks really beautifully on that because he, you know, got into a terrible car accident and lost his whole family or almost all of his whole family. And he talks about hearing a voice that he believes is God that told him to let it go in that moment of that car. So it's definitely a big presence in a lot of people's lives.

Oh, yeah. I know there are a number of really beautiful stories in here. That's one that I remember because some of this makes no human sense. The most human natural thing to do is to hate, to want revenge. That's the normal natural thing to do. Totally. Yes. And so when you hear these other stories,

I guess this is my way of saying that it seems to me that this kind of thing is the most powerful apologetic for Christian faith because when you see it, you just go, whoa. Like, I don't even know how to, I don't know how to process that. Right. Yeah. And I think that that's like I also found myself when interviewing these people, I found myself having that same reaction, which was like, how is it possible? How is that possible to forgive? I mean, the things that have happened to so many people in this book. and also just in life in general, and people are able to find compassion and empathy

and in their heart to forgive is an incredible thing. Yeah, I mean, I think it also comes with a sense of humility, which also comes with a sense of reality, right? Now, if you think that you're really great, then you don't think that you've done anything wrong and you don't really have much impetus. And there are people like that who have that kind of attitude. Yeah.

And they're always talking about what other people have done to them. but if you have some sense of what you've done to hurt other people, it is a little humbling. Right, because none of us are perfect. So we've all been in situations where we've hurt someone or we've felt hurt by another person's behavior or actions. So to be aware of that and self-aware is obviously a great thing, but not everybody has that. Well, yeah, and I think I want to applaud you for writing the book because I think that we need to talk more about this and we need to get this out there. I think that there are tons of people who will read this book whose lives will be changed. And, you know, what an amazing thing that you could write a book and that it will affect people.

Because it goes right to that place of pain that so many people are walking around with. They don't know what to do with it. Well, it's interesting. And thank you so much for saying that because that's the greatest compliment ever. As you know, my hope is always that if somebody can read this book and feel not alone in their forgiveness journey or feel like they're inspired to practice forgiveness in their own lives, then I feel like my job is done. there. But I think that there's just so many different types of forgiveness in this book. And it is, it's also a great learning lesson from different people in this book that you never know what

someone's going through, walking down the street or standing in line at a coffee shop. And, you know, people act and behave certain ways. And even people that I've known for a really long time when I would say to them, oh, I'm working on this book on forgiveness, the real. reactions and responses that I would get were really eye-opening for me because people, I would sit down at dinner and people that I've known for several years, I would tell them that I'm working on this book and some would burst into tears. Others would get really, really quiet and go back to a moment in their past where someone had wronged them that they still were hanging on to 20 or 30 years later. Other people were in the midst of struggling with forgiveness that I had no idea they were going through. And a lot of people, you know, put this presentation on like, everything is going so well in their lives. And the reality is that they're actually really struggling. So I think that this book also, you know, of course, the goal is to teach people about forgiveness and inspire them to practice forgiveness in their lives. But also it teaches people to live their lives with a little bit more empathy and kindness for the journey of life

that we're all going on together. Well, you know, as I say, to put this out there, to be public about this, it's like a public service because there are tons of people. they're just looking for something, but they don't know where to go, and they don't know how to. And you've framed it well because it's not overly religious or whatever. This is like a book for everybody, and I think that that's important. We were talking earlier about your husband, Chris Pratt, and how he's been public about his faith. And I feel the same way that when somebody is public about their faith, it gives tons of people strength to say, oh, like, if he's public about his faith, maybe I can be a little bit more public. about my faith. And it's kind of important. Yeah. Just a little. Yeah, no, it's very important. And,

you know, I, I grew up with faith being a really big part of my life. I come from a very big Irish Catholic family. Really? So it's, it's something that, you know, I've always talked about with my family and my close friends. And I think him talking about it on a public level has definitely helped a huge amount of people who have, you know, religion as a part of their lives and faith as a part of their lives and want to get more comfortable being open and honest about that because it's it is such a big gift and a blessing in all of our lives. So to be able to talk about it openly is a great thing. Yeah, it's huge stuff. So kudos to him. I'd marry that man if he weren't already married. Hey, we're going to be right back. Are we going to a break? Okay, we'll be right back, folks, talking to Catherine

Schwarzenegger Pratt. Hey there, folks. That's the Hughes Corporation. We play there for the young people. All right. I'm talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt about her book, The Gift of Forgiveness. Uh, Catherine, I don't want to make you uncomfortable, but be honest. Can you tell that I'm wearing a horsehair wig? Be honest. I don't care. I could take it. No, no, you can't, you can't tell. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Because you know what? If you're going to spend money on a horsehair wig, you just want it. It's worth the investment to get a good, a well-fitted wig. And that's good for you. All right, well, thank you. All right. So let's, uh, let's talk about something more important, your book. In your book, you've got all of these stories. A few of them I recognize. The Ron Hall story, what was the name of that book? Same

Kind of different as me. Yes. That's an unbelievable story. Yes. But there are a few in here. What are some of the ones in here that people would be familiar with? I think Elizabeth Smart is someone, you know, that people remember. Yeah, that was the first one, right? Yeah. Remember that case very well. I think Tanya Brown is Nicole Brown Simpson's sister. Right. So people remember that trial in that situation very well. Sebastian Maraquin is actually not that well known, but his father is Pablo Escobar. So people are very... His father is Pablo Escobar. Yeah, so people are very familiar with that name. See, most of us, our fathers are not Pablo Escobar.

It's kind of interesting. I know. I know. Wow. Right. There was one in here that I wanted to ask you about. Now I'm going to forget. When you mentioned the story of Elizabeth Smart, is that her name?

Yes. I kind of forgotten the details of that. She was like 14. She's kidnapped. She's raped daily for like nine months. And then she manages to get over that and to forgive that. And I think, you know, it's important also that you have parents that are helping you with that. Because you can see how some parents would never be able to let go of that.

Of course. I think anybody who has kids, I'm sure, would be hearing this story and think, you know, I couldn't do that. Or maybe, you know, some feel like they could. but her parents were actually really helpful for her when she was later returned home. Her parents said to her when she got home, you know, these people have taken so much from you already. Don't allow them to take one more second of your happiness and your future moving forward. And that's where she talks a lot about her being able to practice forgiveness. And I actually talked to her, I think it was a week or 10 days after they had announced that her female captor was being released early.

So it was a very, I went into the interview not really knowing. what to expect because also, you know, some people, for a lot of people, forgiveness and the decision to forgive someone can be a one and done situation. And for a lot of us like myself, it's an ongoing process. So I wasn't really sure where she was in that. And, you know, would her forgiveness decision have been shaky at all with this new decision to have something released? So it was an interesting conversation with her. When you talk about Nicole Simpson's sister, Tanya Brown.

You say that her parents, and this makes sense, that at some point, and I'm trying to think of their names, but I mean, we've seen them a million times, you know, the father with the huge handlebar mustache and the glasses and whatever, that they became fixtures. But that they eventually went to church to deal with this. I don't know what kind of church or whatever, but that, you know, that wasn't widely publicized and they have a Jewish surname. name. So I would never dream that they would go to a church, but that to find healing that they did that. Right. I think it's you reaching a certain point. And there are people, you know, in this book and also just in life in general that I've talked to who do reach a certain point of feeling lost or helpless in certain situations and, you know, turning towards their faith or finding some faith to help pull them through that and give them a hope there.

Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, so many of us, we all have things in our lives. And, but, you know, thinking of something like what they went through, it's very hard to fathom how you would process that. And obviously, there are people who can't. They, they break. Of course. Yes. It consumes them.

100%. So it's, it's wonderful to think that people who've been through something that horrible could find a way through. So, sorry. Yeah, she also talked about, you know, which I think is interesting coming from a large family, the different dynamics in a family that, you know, it takes different amounts of time for people to heal in different ways. So she talked in the section about, you know, she has other sisters and how they are on very different pages when it comes to their forgiveness journey. They're at very different places in their forgiveness journey. So I think that part of it is also interesting to know that they, you know, have a big family and that, you know, losing a member of your family is obviously a tragic and terrible thing.

And each of them have taken their own time to deal with forgiveness, struggle with it, and some still struggling. You tell the story of a gymnast in here. Her name was not familiar to me. Sarah Klein. Sarah Klein. Right. She was one of those who'd been abused over the years by Larry Nassar. Yes.

And that's an amazing story. I mean, I think because, you know, when you're talking about forgiveness, you're talking about ultimate things. You're really talking about evil. What is evil? And what can possess someone? I don't mean that literally. But to do the kinds of things that some of the people do that require forgiveness. I mean, it's, it's unimaginable, thank goodness to most of us.

What would it be like to live an entire life of deception? And it seems to me that on some weird level, you'd have to feel sorry for the person because they are so deeply messed up that I would imagine they don't even know who they are. They can't begin to know who they are if they've been deceiving themselves and others for years. Yeah, and her story is an incredible one. And I think obviously the case, the Larry Nasser cases were very, really public for so many of us who recognize that whole situation, but she, you know, was very close to Larry Nasser. So it was a really challenging topic for her to talk about and a very

emotional one and one that she really talked about as being an ongoing journey for her. Right. Because, you know, it is, she has moments where she's confronted with these trigger moments that take you back to feeling angry or upset. And I think it's totally understandable. And she talks openly about that, which I think is helpful for people. Well, that, I mean, that's the question is that if you look at somebody not just as a monster, but as a human being, even if they've done something monstrous, you still recognize, well, they're made in the image of God. And that someplace in there is someone that God loves in spite of the horror. that they've done. And so when you know somebody, it's more difficult in some ways to demonize them

and just shut them off in that way. We're going to be right back. We're talking to Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. The gift of forgiveness is the book. Hey folks, this is Eric Mitaksa's show. I hate to interrupt that music. I really do. But Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt is in the studio. And we really need to talk. People will feel shortchanged if we just listen to the group of tune. I just want to take a moment to make fun of the blurbs on the back of your book. Great. I love that. Because they are such big deal names that it's just hilarious. Now, I know Roma Downey, and I know Gretchen Carlson, but you've got Jamie Lee Curtis on here. Come on. Really? She's big in the forgiveness space. Is it true? In the forgiveness space? There's a space now?

Yeah. I mean, when you do two and a half years of research on forgiveness, there's a big space for it. I guess. I guess so. Does she? She has a story that we're not aware of? No, she just talks openly about forgiveness being a big part of, you know, sobriety and her life. Okay. And so she was a great person to talk to about, you know, this book. And you have Rob Lowe on here? I do.

Is this just for comic effect? What is this? What's your issue, Catherine? No, it's another 12-step program. I know. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It's just fine.

And you have Jenna Bush-Hager. Yes. Obviously, the daughter of W. In California, do you refer to him as W? Sure. Huh? Do you call them W? No, I just imagine living in California You don't have many friends that love W.

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, well, maybe not what he was president. I think I keep forgetting your father was a Republican governor of the state. I know. My mom's a Democrat, so I have a happy medium. Never mind. Well, but you know what, though, your mom's Democrat,

but, you know, because we talked earlier that I had interviewed, is it your cousin, Caroline? Is she your cousin? Yes, yes. It's interesting because when you think of JFK Democrats, It's a really different world than AOC Democrat. You know what I mean? Well, me, it's changed so much, obviously, over time.

And I think that my mom is actually now even independent because it's just... She's not a socialist? No. It's just so the times have changed so much. I mean, even from when my dad ran and I was, you know, in high school and I would remember the conversations at the dinner table between the two of them. And just about, you know, what he was dealing with as governor. It's crazy to see, you know, the politics. politics now are just so different. So you say governor. You don't say governator. I don't. No. I know it's

shocking, right? I was expecting you to say governorator. Oh, okay. I just had a respect for the old man. Let me ask you. But it is funny, though, also coming from a Catholic background. I mean, the life issue, is it your, I'm trying to think which relatives, which drivers. I have a lot of relatives. I have a lot of relatives. No, no, I know, but I'm saying the ones who started the special Olympics. My grandmother. She started Special Olympics, Lewis Kennedy Shriver. Okay. Well, you know, these are folks who value life so much that when you start talking about the unborn, there is just no question where they're going to come out on that issue. Right. And it's become very tough for people in the Democratic Party.

Like, it wasn't always that way. That's kind of my point. So I wanted to end on a socially divisive note and I've succeeded. No. So we're going to keep you around for one more segment. Great. We're going to, if it's okay with you, we're going to talk about your book. I'd love that.

Would that be okay with you? Yeah, that'd be great. All right. You don't move. Folks, thanks for listening. We'll be right back. Final segment with Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt.