The Eric Metaxas Show - Katie Madonna

Episode Date: January 15, 2024

Katie Madona joins Eric to share the details of Socrates Plus, where you can listen to Eric's interviews from Socrates and the City and Socrates in the Studio. 

Folks, welcome to the Eric Metaxus show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m. Investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. Did you ever see the movie The Blobs starring Steve McQueen? The Blood Curdling Prep of The Blobs. Well, way back when Eric had a small part in that film, but they had to cut his scene because the blob was supposed to eat them. But he kept spitting him. Oh, the whole thing was just a disaster. Anyway, here's the guy who's not always that easy to digest. Eric the Texas! Hey there, folks.

Welcome to the program. You know, a number of years ago, I met a young couple named Brian and Katie Madonna. That's an Italian surname. Brian and Katie Madonna. And they were so extraordinary. I said, I'd like to hire them, but I can only afford to hire one. And actually, one of them already has a job. hired Katie, and she's my guest. Katie, welcome. Thank you, Eric. Thank you so much for having me on today.

I cannot believe you were willing to come on the program because, you know, I give my guests a really hard time. But we are so fond of you, and I thought the reason you're on today, of course, is because we're launching something. We've never done anything like this before. And this is so big and so amazing. I keep saying to people, trust me, I can't do it justice. Like I try to explain it to them and I realize I can't do it justice. I want to show it to you. There's just no...

So I thought maybe, if I have you as my guest, you have been big time behind this. And what we're talking about, headline folks, is the launch of Socrates Plus. Socrates Plus, December 21st, is the launch state. Okay, Katie Madonna, what is Socrates Plus? Well, your audience may or may not be familiar with Socrates in the city, which of course is your Manhattan-based event interview forum. And Socrates in the city, we thought there's so much content. I mean, and maybe you can speak

to this, Eric. You came up with the idea of Socrates in the city. You've been doing it for 24 years. There's almost 100 lectures, conversations, and we thought we really want to put all of this under one umbrella. How do we do this? We're going to launch Socrates Plus. Disney is doing it with Disney Plus. Daily Wire is doing it with Daily Wire Plus. So why can't we do it? Why can't Socrates in this city have its own digital subscription streaming platform?

And so that's what I'm here to talk about today. I'm really excited. Thank you for having me on. Well, thanks for coming on. Now, people who know the Socrates brand, the Socrates brand is not political. The Socrates brand is not particularly theological. Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living. Let's talk about the big questions.

Let's talk about the questions of life. Now, I, as a Christian, believe that if you examine the big questions of life and are honest, they will lead you to the God of the Bible inevitably. They will lead you in that direction. So we don't try very hard. We just have all these different kinds of conversations. And over, it's kind of sick, 24 years, insane to think that we've been doing it for 24 years. But I've had conversations with, my goodness, with people who've walked on the moon,

with people who have not walked on the moon, and with everyone in between. Folks, think about that. People who've walked on the moon, people who've not walked on the moon, and everyone in between. But seriously, we've had conversations with poets. We've had conversations with novelists. We've had conversations with many scientists, with theologians, with scholars, with writers of every stripe. And so it's a wide array of things that we've done. But a lot of it hasn't really been widely available, number one.

and then we've got a whole backlog of stuff that we've never put on the internet or anything like that. And we thought, okay, we need to put some of this stuff out there. But in the course of launching this streaming platform, which is subscriber-based, what is it, $500 a month? $5 a month. Wait a minute, it's not $500 a month. Right, right, exactly. It's $5 a month. Katie, that can't be right.

It's cheap. Five bucks a month? That's right. Yes. And so we will host not only all of these Socrates and the city conversations, we have brand new exclusive shows coming out. We'll get to that. I'm really excited about some of the content, the new brand new content that we're putting out there. But we will also have event transcripts. I have answered many, many emails coming into Socrates, the info at Socrates in the city.com inbox. Everybody wants transcripts. So that's something that we're excited to have on the platform, there will be exclusive merchandise. There's a lot going on. So for $5 a month, one of the other big things that we'll have available are the event live streams.

So when these events happen, as they're happening, subscribers will be able to access them. We just had Dennis Prager at Socrates in the city. Katie, you were there. And that will not be available for quite some time. So it takes a long time to edit these things. and whatever to edit out the cuss words. And the fisticuffs. It really gets rough because we exchange ideas and blows sometimes.

And we edit all that out. So if you want to experience it, like the night that it happens, that's the live stream. And we are putting that in the package for, did you really say $5 a month? Kitty, that can't be right. I think you're misreading that. Yes. Well, let me say the website is. Socrates in the city plus.com.

And your listeners right now can go and they can add their email. They can sign up to receive notifications. Again, we'll launch December 21st. But yes, $5 a month. Socrates in the city plus.com. But what I keep saying, because people keep asking me about this, that I'm traveling around the country and they say, what is that?

And when I try to explain it, the reason I wanted you want is because it's hard to do it justice, frankly, because there's a lot there. In other words, it's not just Socrates events. We are doing brand new programs. And when I heard about that, I was really excited. I'm most excited. Well, there are two new programs that I can mention right now. We're doing this thing called Socrates in the studio.

Maybe you can explain that. Because Socrates in the city events, we've got like 200 plus people. It's these big events at these clubs and whatever. It's very expensive to do them. and we've done a zillion them over the years. But what is Socrates in the studio? Sure. So we wanted to think of a way to record more conversations, more quickly.

And so we came up with Socrates in the studio, which is really just a pared down addition of Socrates in the city. So we're bringing in amazing thinkers, and we can speak about maybe some of our guests coming out in the first season. But it really is very similar to a Socrates in the city conversation. And we don't have an audience, but it's beautifully recorded and just a really amazing conversations, thoughtful, entertaining, everything that you would expect from a Socrates in the city conversation. And I— Yeah, go ahead.

Well, I was just going to say, so we, yeah, we just recorded, finished recording the first season. And I've been listening to the Margarita Mooney interview. You had Anthony Bradley, Scott Atlas, of course, Andrew Claven. And he was a Socrates and the City guest. And we just loved him so much. We thought, you know, why not continue that conversation for Sacrotees in the studio? Yeah. And by the way, I've had a few, like, truly amazing conversations for the Socrates and Studio program,

which obviously were releasing with Socrates in the City Plus.com. But they've been so delightful. And it is amazing to me to think that they're not out there yet. People have not. I experienced them because I was there. I was having the conversation. But Heather McDonald, Anthony Bradley with the Acton Institute, so many just, I mean, look, let's call them what they are. They're Socrates conversations.

It's just not at a Socrates in the city event. It's at a Socrates in the studio. But important conversations, fun conversations. We tried hard to get Alexander Solzhenitsyn, but he passed away about 10 years ago. So that's not going to happen. I know. But it's like he would have been. It would have been so perfect.

But we have a whole list of people. And we're going to be doing these Socrates in the studio sessions, just like Socrates in the city, around the country, around the world. I want to do a bunch this year in London and in Oxford. I want to do them all around the country because sometimes it's easier to go to someone and do have that conversation there. We're going to a break, folks. Plenty more.

Socrates in the city plus.com is the web. site Socrates in the cityplus.com. Folks, right now in other parts of the world, people's lives are being threatened simply for believing in Jesus. People have been enslaved for their faith. So listeners to this show know that I'm passionate about the work of Christian Solidarity International because they protect and free those who are being persecuted and enslaved for their Christian faith.

I've got to thank you for your life-changing generosity for years now. If you've given a CSI through this program, you have played a role in freeing literally thousands of captives. So as we near the end of this year, can I ask you to give once again your gift of just $250 will free a woman in Sudan who has been enslaved for years? You can buy a believer's freedom and provide her with food and other supplies necessary to start her new life, just $250. Maybe you can give more and free more people.

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You're going to love this free new tool they've added. LegacyPM Investments.com. LegacyPMinvestments.com. Check it out. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to one of my favorite people, Katie Madonna. She happens to be on our team. And she has done so much. But what we're talking about right now is this idea, Katie, that you had, that I really was amazed.

at the concept of this. It's a program that's going to be on Socrates Plus, so you have to sign up at Socratesandcityplus.com. But it's included. It's all included when you go to Socratesandcityplus.com and you sign up for, what is it, $5 a month? You're making that up, Katie. You're just making that up.

$5 a month. You're going to hit people for $49.99. I know it's going to be $50 a month. If it's really $5 a month, people, well. But for me, because I've done Socrates in the city and had these conversations over the years, I'm excited about that. But this thing I didn't even know about until a couple of months ago, and you came up with this idea called a gentleman's guide. You were just describing it. So please continue describing what it is because it's a short program.

I don't know how long they're going to be. There's going to be longer versions. But go ahead. Right. So we'll do, you know, these might be 20 to 30 minute episodes. We'll have extended, you know, additions of every episode. But it really is, we're traveling with you, Eric, through a city. And you're pointing out, you know, must-see locations, little-known historical details.

You're telling us restaurants that you want, you know, your favorite restaurants. And we're just going with you. It's fun. It's like a mixture of a docu-series, but also it's produced. You know, you'll maybe recite a poem here and there. or, you know, maybe something from your books will come up. But this was in part inspired from Amazing Grace, your biography on William Wilberforce, who had, you know, he felt like God gave him two chief aims in life.

The first, of course, was to abolish the British slave trade, which he did, you know, that took him nearly his whole life. But the lesser-known chief aim in life for him was the Reformation of Manners. So one of the things that we're really hoping to do with this show is we want to delight your viewers. We want to entertain them. You know, we want to teach them a thing or two. But underneath, you know, we want to show what does it really mean to be a gentleman? You know, maybe we'll talk about virtues or we'll have fun quotes and poems and different things.

Well, I have to say, and you know I'm not kidding because I've said this to you several times now. But I was just astonished at the whole thing because it would, it would, you know, you know, you know, to me, it's sort of, it lets me be me in the best sense, basically, like, there's all this wonderful content that I get to present. And you, principally, and others have pulled it together. So it was so much fun for me to film it. We filmed it over two days, what was it, last month sometime. And this is just the first episode. This is a gentleman's guide to New York. And by the way, folks, we're going to do many, many more gentlemen's guides to New York. New York because we scratched the surface.

So we're going to do one in Philadelphia. We're going to do them around the United States. We're going to do them in Europe. But we could do 50 of them in New York because New York has so many interesting things. And the one that we did in New York, and I honestly cannot wait for people to see this because it's nuts. It's not. Ladies and gentlemen, you'll see. But it was we went to an art gallery.

We went to a museum. We went to a special place in Central Park. I recited a poem that I wrote in front of the Statue of Liberty. I'm not making this up. We really did this. But it's also, it's quirky and kind of funny. It definitely has a Wes Anderson vibe, I guess, visually. Right, right, exactly.

Our director is Chris Cole, and he and his team were just phenomenal to work with. And, you know, we're really excited to do a lot more. And we're all about ripping off Wes Anderson. But seriously, it is just a lot of, delightful content, and it's fun. And like a lot of stuff I do, like, you have to listen carefully because there will be weird statements and jokes. But if you're not, if you're listening casually, you'll miss them and you'll be, you'll be embarrassed because other people won't miss them. But it was so much fun, I cannot wait to do the next one and the next one and the next one and the next one and the next one.

And so this is a show featured on Socrates Plus. And so people can go to Socrates and the Cityplus.com. and you can give us your email. But I still want to know how you came up with the idea of a gentleman's guide because I think this is going to be like a breakout hit. I don't know where it's going to go, what's going to happen. But it was so much fun doing it that I thought, I think this is going to go places. Right.

I mean, I hope so. I hope people really have a lot of fun watching this. And, you know, there's so many things that went into, you know, the inspiration behind this. But, you know, for a couple of things, I've been watching. you know, different travel documentaries on whatever, Netflix or Amazon Prime. I've been watching a lot of The Crown, Eric, which you turned me on to years ago, but they talk all about duty and, you know, they go hunting and they do all these amazing gentlemanly things. And I thought, you know, I'd love to see Eric in a suit hunting grouse.

We haven't done that yet, but maybe we'll do that. Not yet. In a suit hunting grouse, ladies and gentlemen, you heard. here on the program. I'm as surprised and shocked and disgusted as you are. That will never happen. No, I think it's going to happen. I think it's going to happen. But it's just so it was so much

fun to shoot. And again, it's hard for us to communicate. This is why people have to see the visuals. But the places we went, we went to one place in Brooklyn, a bar called Fort Defiance. I mean, I don't even know. I mean, it's related to George Washington. The Battle of Brooklyn happened right there.

So there's a lot of history here. We went to an art gallery on Bleaker Street or near there. That's another story. But there were so many different pieces that it's hard to sum up, and that's the goal, to make it hard to sum up. So you'll just watch it, you'll experience it, and then you'll stumble around trying to tell your friends about it. But Katie, Madonna, who is my guest, Katie,

You're a wife, you're a mother, and you're behind the scenes making a lot of this stuff happens. So I just want to say thank you on the air because it is, I am amazed at what you have done. The gentleman's guide is just the most astonishing to me. It's just such a cool thing. And I, ladies and gentlemen, I can't wait to see it. Like I can't begin to say how I'm just drooling. I want to see it.

It was so much fun doing it. But we have to say, Katie, that this is exclusive content. You will not be able to find this anywhere. This will not be on YouTube. This is not going to be anywhere else. All this stuff that we've had on Socrates, it's been on YouTube, it's been everywhere. It won't be. If you want to see all of this stuff, and some of this stuff has been seen like literally

a million times. We've had tons of views, but we're going to migrate everything officially to Socrates plus. So if you want to see it in toto, you have to sign up for Socrates Plus. But it's going to be, and we're going to be expanding it. I think we have to be clear, too, that there are other programs that I can't really talk about right now that are going to fall under the Socrates Plus platform. We're working on getting those funded and on doing those. But it's just exciting.

I, you know, I still can't believe it's really finally happening. Yes, we're so excited. So Socrates Plus, again, it's a digital subscription streaming platform. It houses all things Socrates in the City. This is nearly 100 conversations, lectures, just an amazing variety of content, really thought-provoking and entertaining content that will be on Socrates and the Cityplus.com. Now, we will still have some content on YouTube. We'll still have some free content on the Socrates in the city website.

But everything and a lot of new, brand new, exclusive content will be only available on Socrates plus. Again, $5 a month. And, yeah, like you said, there's a lot of really, really exciting things coming down the pipeline. And we are looking for, you know, if somebody would be interested in partnering with us, if someone would be interested in investing, we take bribes, we take gifts. We need bribes. We actually need bribes. That's in our bylaws. No, actually, we do. Yeah, go ahead.

I was just going to say, send me an email at info at socrates in the city.com. One of the other things that we're looking for are contributors. So the Socrates Plus website, it is really a media website. So we have all kinds of video, audio, but we're also going to have columns. So if anyone is listening and you can use the word lapidary correctly in a sentence, You can send me your writing samples info at Socrates in the city.com, and we may tap your shoulder to have you contribute an article or two. Right. And just to embarrass you on the way out, I think you should have a show on Socrates Plus. I'm going to twist your arm into that. Thank you, Katie, Madonna. Thank you. Folks, right now in other parts of the world, people's lives are being threatened simply for believing in Jesus. People have been enslaved for their faith. So listeners to this show know that I'm passing.

about the work of Christian Solidarity International because they protect and free those who are being persecuted and enslaved for their Christian faith. I've got to thank you for your life-changing generosity for years now. If you've given a CSI through this program, you have played a role in freeing literally thousands of captives. So as we near the end of this year, can I ask you to give once again your gift of just $250 will free a woman in Sudan who has been enslaved for years? You can buy a believer's freedom. and provide her with food and other supplies necessary to start her new life, just $250. Maybe you can give more and free more people. Call 888-253-3522, or go to metaxisot-talk.com. Please do it metaxistalk.com. For more than 10 years, Patriot Mobile has been America's only Christian conservative wireless providers standing behind their values and their exceptional service. They're an example of putting the cause ahead of profits, and it's why I am proud to partner

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whom I haven't seen too much. Recently, we connected at Amfest in Phoenix, where my friend, Benjamin Thomas, told me about this book he had written, and it is at least fascinating.

Benjamin Thomas, welcome. Glad to be here. I lean forward a little bit because we want to hear what you have to say. You're a complex figure, and this has happened to me before, where you have a friend, and you just know them as your friend and you're in business and you're, you know, a brilliant business guy and building companies and stuff. And then, you know, you decide to look into some stuff and to write a book.

You know, I didn't see that coming. The book is titled Revelation Riddle, Kingdom Age of the Saints, End Times for the New World Order. Sounds like you're a Christian. Revelation Riddle. Now, I read most of this. already. But for somebody brand new to you, Benjamin Thomas, and to this book Revelation Riddle and the concept of Kingdom Age of the Saints, what pulled you into this, you know, end-time stuff? I mean, or let's start out, where were you a few years ago in terms of, you know,

your theology of the end times, what we call eschatology. Where were you? Well, Eric, I think I was probably where a lot of folks in the event. evangelical church are, which is I'd read all the left behind movie series. I'd, you know, certainly probably read 40 or 50 books on end times. And I was all in on the rapture theology. Now, by the way, that's not normal. I just want to be very clear, folks. You're not required to read 40 or 50 books on the end times. If you're doing that, you may want to think about getting another hobby. But you really did that. You were into this stuff. You were a student of the end times. You're trying to figure out what is the Lord saying through the scripture? I was and I probably had a trust the

experts mentality. You know, I really wanted to hear what other church leaders had to say about in times. And for me, there came a point where I really started to recognize how the world really worked and behind the scenes, the power structures that, you know, frankly had done a really good job of, I think managing our world for the enemies team. And frankly, it scared me. Kind of like the Rhino Republican Party. A lot like the Rhino Republican Party. But I mean, it's exactly like that, right?

Like you kind of, anyway, I want to step on your words, but you're saying that we had all, this keeps coming up over and over and over in various disciplines, so not just end time stuff and theology. But this idea that there's this, consensus, we all buy into the consensus. We think everybody on the team, all the good guys agree on this consensus. And then something happens that makes you say, I wonder if we have missed something. And it seems like you, that's what happened to you. Well, that's absolutely right. I mean,

I was poking along. A friend of mine came to my house in Texas at the time and sort of educated me on how the world really worked. And honestly, Eric, it scared me. when I understood how organized our enemy really was, it really scared me. I was frightened. And frankly, armed with only my teaching from my evangelical church upbringing, which was pretty much could be summarized in, yeah, things get really bad. And then one day we just get rescued. And so that was how I was brought up. That was what I was taught. And so when I heard, when I was educated, if you will, and how the world really worked, I got into fear, frankly. I mean, I thought, well, do we get rescued, you know, during the bad stuff or at the end of the bad stuff? Look, this is the question. We've got to put this on the table for people because I've never been, you know, I came to faith relatively late in life from my 25th birthday, and I was just so happy to find Jesus that I didn't care about the details. So it's like, whatever, like people want to argue pre-trib, post-trib, but I don't care. It is what it is. Whatever it is, I'm going to praise God, whether we go,

through the tribulation or don't go through the tribulation. I don't have to, and I say this to everybody, you don't have to know. You don't have to have an opinion on that as though it's equal to your salvation. You need to trust in Jesus, and there's going to be a lot of stuff we may disagree on or we can argue, you're trying to figure it out. But you're saying that the consensus, the wide consensus in the evangelical world was, and I think we picked this up, and I got some of this from your book too. But I mean, you know, from Hal Lindsay's the late Great Planet Earth or whatever, the Antichrist is going to come. It's going to be sick, bad, horrible. The saints get rapture out of here. That's kind of the narrative that is not challenged very much. And what is that called?

That's called a pre-trib rapture. Well, it's called dispensational. There's a lot of words for it. But actually, I call it a rescue rapture. We get rescued from the grips of Satan who's about to destroy us with the Antichrist, and that's generally what we've been taught for a long, long time. Okay, and so you and I talked about this, and one of the downsides of that view, and I have talked about this a lot from a different perspective, but what it makes a lot of Christians do is say, I don't give a darn about this world. That's not biblical, folks. You're supposed to give a darn about this world. Jesus saves you and fills you with the Holy Spirit so you can be, living out his will and his power in this world for his purposes in this world. But if you believe

it's all going to go to heck in a handbasket and I'm going to get raptured out of here, the memo is, so therefore don't do anything. It's all going to burn. It's all going to burn. So you know what? I'm just going to have my quiet time. I'm going to have a nice time with the Lord on Sundays and I'm not going to do anything because I'm out of here. That is not biblical. And And we're going to be right back. We're talking to Benjamin Thomas, the brand new book, Revelation, Riddle, Kingdom Age of the Saints. Are you tired of not getting a good night's sleep? Well, my friend Mike Lundell has created the perfect solution.

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Don't wait any longer to get the best sleep of your life. Take advantage of this amazing offer. Go to MyPillow.com and click on the radio podcast square and use promo code Eric at checkout. wait any longer to get the best sleep of your life. Call 800-978-3057 or go to mypillow.com now and use promo code Eric. Welcome back. We're talking to Benjamin Thomas, the author of a new book Revelation Riddle, Kingdom Age of the Saints, End Times for the New World Order. So we're just talking Benjamin about there's this kind of consensus and evangelical world that it's all going to go to hell and we are going to be raptured out of here. We're going to be rescued. Therefore, one of the

therefore, as you get from that, so don't do anything. Don't be politically active. Don't work hard to redeem and heal the brokenness of sin in the culture, which is what the church is supposed to do. And I don't do that because any minute, the Lord's going to show up so you can go into your root cellar with the water purification tablets and your slim jims and just hang out until Jesus rescues you. And you were on that page. I was on that page. I mean, I, I, frankly, felt like I should get involved in some degree. But at the end of the day, what I call the rescue rapture has really taken the church and put them on the sideline.

People don't, for instance, run for Congress. They don't go to school board meetings. They don't participate in society because they believe that Jesus will come at any moment and rescue them. And I think that's the fruit of this rescue rapture doctrine. There's one thing I want to tease out of that. There's another piece of that, right? On the one hand, they think Jesus is going to rescue them. On the other hand, there are a lot of people I've met that they're almost psyched to see the world go to hell.

They're almost psyched to see everything get worse like, ha, ha, judgment is coming, ha. Instead of being moved by compassion to help those who might be helped, they're kind of glad to see it go downhill. And for me, that the United States of America is the classic example that, like, this country was founded to be a shining city on a hill, to be a beacon of liberty, and to be able to be a place, kind of almost like a launching pad for gospel missionaries and gospel principles and purposes around the world. And a lot of people who have this rescue, rapture rescue mentality, they're kind of like, we're happy to see America go down the tubes. It's already under judgment. It deserves judgment because of all the babies. killed and blah, blah, blah, and they're not even slightly patriotic thinking, what can I do to help my nation stand for God's principles, and they're the ones buying the idea that, oh, yeah, that's

Christian nationalism, I'm just about Jesus. Well, that's right. In fact, I did a recent survey on my Gab channel where I asked people, does the rapture happen in a time of victory, a time of duress, or I don't know? and 80% of the respondents said a time of duress and 20% said, I don't know, and not one person said a time of victory. So when you talk about bad things that happen, a lot of Christians are like, yeah, yeah, see, that's it.

I told you things will get worse, and they think it's a fulfillment somehow of Bible prophecy, but at the end of the day, it has taken the church out of the game. And that's one of the reasons why we don't have great candidates running for Congress or running for president. That's one of the reasons we find ourselves in a place where Satan has taken over the seven pillars of our society. And then we are shocked. We act shocked like, oh, my gosh, how did that happen?

The reason it happened is the Christians were not involved. We thought things were just going to blow up. The world was going to burn up. And so we took a back seat. I think that's the fruit of that mentality. And unfortunately, a contributor, not the only contributor, but certainly a contributor to where we are today. There's no doubt. And listen, part of the joy, you know, when we reconnected in Phoenix at Amfest was to hear you say all this stuff from a completely different angle of me,

but agreeing with me on where we come out. I mean, it's sort of fascinating because I wasn't looking at the end times part of it, but I was thinking like, we are called to be salt and light. We're called to fight, not to sit on the sidelines and get the popcorn to watch it all burn and, you know, like that's not right. And that's bad. The end. And that's what led to people accepting the nonsense of like, oh, Christian nationalism, if you care about America. That is total garbage on every level. And what you bring in in this book, and I want to get to the details, is how bad end-time theology feeds that and has fed that and has led us to a place where the church has, I mean, imagine what happens when the church pulls the salt and light out of the culture is like it's going to go downhill that much more quickly. So if we bring the salt and light into the culture, if Christians get activated like you and I both pray that they do and advocate that they do, you're going to be stunned if Christians are being active in culture and politics and whatever.

You're going to be stunned at the influence we can have. And I believe that's the Lord's will and you do too. Well, we're the majority, but the fact is we don't fight. Nobody fights. And I think a lot of the reason people don't fight is because, because we've been taught there's no need to. You're going to be raptured out of here. We're going to be rescued.

And so a place is going to burn up anyway. And so that's generally what people believe. Now, you know, they may not use those words, but deep down inside, that is what they've been taught, and that's what they believe. I met a guy the other day who he did not, you know, he's a garbage collector. He's been running the same garbage route for 20 years.

And he speaks Hebrew and Greek and Sanskrit. He can read, you know, go into a cave and read the walls. And I said, why didn't you go to college? You obviously have these gifts. You have these gifts and these talents that God is using you for. Why didn't you go to school? And he goes, well, I grew up in the South, and my church told me, there's no need to go to college. Jesus could come by any time, and there's no reason for you to go to school.

And he said, that's why I didn't go to school. And I think he's not alone. I think there are a lot of people whose dreams have been, frankly, put on ice because they were taught this doctrine around end times and this, I call it the rescue rapture, frankly, it's we're going to get rescued and

it keeps people out of the game. It keeps people out of their calling and honestly, it puts their passions and their gifts on the sideline. And let's call it what it is, folks. It's bad theology. And by the way, I want to be very clear. I say this in all my speeches. Bad theology, to be clear, is from the pit of hell. It's Satan's

theology. It's not like, oh, B-minus theology. It's from the pit of hell, bad theology, and it leads us not to doing God's will. I mean, classic case of this, I went to Times Square Church. I met my wife, Suzanne, at Times Square Church. I love that church. But particularly in the beginning, David Wilkerson had this kind of theology to some extent that there were people in the church with tremendous gifts in theater, opera, or whatever. And they all kind of got the memo, not, in other words, don't enter those fields to be salt and light in New York, in theater, in opera, in Hollywood, to be salt and light,

to redeem the culture, to help the culture turn the corner away from the dark nihilism of that world. Just skip it. Just get a job as a church secretary or something like that and pray because it's not worth it. We have both seen tons of this and people listening. You've seen it. We're talking to Benjamin Thomas, Brand New Book, Revelation Riddle. Welcome back talking to Benjamin Thomas, brand new book, Revelation Riddle, Kingdom Age of the Saints. We're going to get to what that means, and it's really good news. Benjamin, you know, you just said something on the break about Jesus was a war.

warrior against the deep state. I never understood that until the last few years. What do you mean by that? Well, Jesus spent a good portion of his ministry calling out the apostasy in the church, calling out the false doctrine among the Pharisees. What was happening at the time was, frankly, the commentary or the oral tradition was becoming more important than the law of Moses. and he put his finger right on it. He called it out. He also spent time educating his disciples about the sons of the age, about the snakes, the scorpions.

He really spent a good chunk of his ministry educating his disciples on, hey, these are the powers that rule this world. These are the sons of age. These are the people that are really in charge. And you need to be aware of them. You need to learn how to fight. I'll keep you safe, but you need to have, you know, a distinct plan when you go into these cities and spread the gospel and things like that.

So he really did call things out. He went against Roman leaders. He went against church leaders. He was a purveyor of truth, and he did not back off of any conversation regarding the deep state. And I think that people miss that. I mean, today we call it the deep state. We don't even know the term deep state until three or so years ago. But the point is, what we're talking about really is the ruling powers of this age. This consensus that says this is the way it is, don't rock the boat. I mean, look, this goes, because of what happened in the last three years and people waking up, people are starting to look back and realize, oh, yeah, this existed in the Kennedy administration. And Eisenhower called it as the military industrial complex.

In other words, this stuff has always existed, and I'm not trying to be hopelessly vague. But the point is that most people in the 60s, let's say, when they were told by the Warren Commission, single bullet theory, he was killed by an assassin, whatever, they thought, well, if Gerald Ford and the Warren Commission, and I guess that's that. And today, we know that's nonsense. But for me, it's one thing to know that that's nonsense. It's another thing to realize of the wickedness of the wickedness. of our own government at the time, of the complicity of the FBI and the CIA and the mafia and whoever it else, and probably LBJ,

we've had Roger Stone on the program talking about it. It's so wicked. It's so dark and sick. And most people just kind of moved along unaware of the profound corruption that the country had been taken over in a sense. And we're talking about that same dynamic, because you and I know it's a spiritual dynamic,

it's not a political dynamic, that was at play in Jesus Day, and that he spoke so boldly against it, so fearlessly against it. I mean, you get into that in the book, and we don't really have too much time. Before we go into the second hour, sum up, what do you mean by Kingdom Age of the Saints? The Kingdom Age of the Saints is the next age that God is going to be moving us into. And it is a time of, it is incredible. I mean, frankly, when I saw this in the word, I just about fell out of my chair. Because in the Bible, the Roman system that we're under comes to an end.

And the Bible says in the book of Daniel that he gives the kingdom, the dominion, to his saints. And so that's what's next. So that is bombshell news, folks, to most of us, that the kingdom age of the saints is coming. and it is wonderful. It is not terrible. It's a glorious thing. And I talk about this a little bit in the book that I have coming out in April. And when we come back, we will continue the conversation.

The book is Revelation Riddle by my guest, Benjamin Thomas.