The Eric Metaxas Show - Ken Starr

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

Judge Ken Starr, in his new book "Religious Liberty in Crisis," warns of some of the challenges ahead for people who believe in the Bible.

to the Eric Metaxus show with your host, Eric Metaxus. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. I'm Eric Mataxis. Albin, I'm the host. I'm Eric. Who are you? I'm going to be, I'm going to be, Albin.

I'm going to be like the sidekick. Produce your sidekick role? Okay, that's fine. Listen, today is what they call Easter Monday. Which means, I guess, technically yesterday was Easter Sunday. We have an exciting show. We want to warn people what's coming up. Number one, in a couple of minutes, none other than Ken Starr.

Have you heard of Ken Starr? Not to be confused with Ringo Starr or Brenda Starr. Ken Starr is his own man. He was the independent counsel in the Clinton administration, the nemesis of the Clintons, I guess. Okay, in hour two, not to get freaky, but we're going to have another Ken. That's right. And it's not Ken Norton, as most of the first.

people were guessing. It is our friend Ken Fish. Ken Fish, you haven't heard Ken Fish like this. This was something we did this for TBN, and I said my TBN audience, TV audience, does not really know Ken Fish. So let's just introduce him as though he'd never been on before. And I learned things, which you're going to learn in our two today about Ken Fish, and you think, how bizarre. He's been my friend for years, and I didn't know this stuff about him. Yeah, the miracle with his mother that involved his mother is really incredible. Yeah, it's a true healing miracle. Anyway, so that's Our 2 can fish.

Hour 1 can star. And right now, Albin, this is what's called the introduction to Hour 1 because we've got a bunch of things to share about Easter weekend and a number of other things. Where do we start? Let me start with this. Matt Labash, he's a never-Trumper conservative. Christian. He invited me to do a kind of debate with him in the pages of the New Republic. Some of you know the magazine, The New Republic. It's a, I would say, center left magazine, very much establishment. Anyway, so he and I did a 5,000 word back and forth, which two-thirds of it is

me joking around, and that's going to really annoy some people, and I apologize. But, you know, what are you going to do? You have too much coffee and it comes out, the joking. But then it gets serious about Trump and Christian faith and Biden. So that's in the pages of the New Republic. I posted it on Twitter or Facebook, parlor gab. And you can read it and you can share it if you want to. But I just thought I would alert people to it. But, Albin, one of the things I wanted to talk about, before we talk about fun Easter stuff. Well, I want to talk about Mike Glendell and using the code Eric on mine. slippers. I just ordered my slippers from my pillow.com for Anne and I, so we're waiting for those to show up. But he's, he's inventing everything. He's going to have, I think he's going to have my bathrobes and my shower caps. Well, I was, I just wanted to make a more serious point before we get to the fun positive stuff, because we've got way much, too much fun positive stuff. I want to inject some negative stuff. So here's the negative stuff. And then we'll get to the

fun, my pillow stuff. We're living in such a divided world, okay? I, I, I did kind of an internet conversation recently. And anyway, I guess here's the point. In my article, in the article, this kind of debate that I do in the pages of the New Republic, which is posted online, I make a point, a serious point in my jokey way, which I think is probably more confused with some people. But I make the very serious point that when I said on the air, I would be willing to die in this fight when I was talking to the president, President Trump on this program.

What I meant was kind of like when Nathan Hale says, you know, my only regret is I have but one life to give for my country. And there was the idea is that we need to all be all in in the fight for freedom and liberty, which to me sounds like common sense. But people misinterpreted it like I'm saying, I don't know, what, like I'm joking about making fun of Nathan Hale. I mean, my gosh, I can't think of anything more serious than a 21-year-old dying for his country, 21 years old. And it happened literally like about a mile from where I am, where I live in Manhattan. That was an orchard. He was

hanged by the British. The whole thing is so horrible and so powerful that it should haunt every one of us who enjoys our freedoms. And so when I said, I'd be happy to die in this fight. what I meant was in the cause of freedom. But the way people misinterpret it and twisted, even on Twitter today, I saw a tweet, and I just thought, wow, we're living in difficult time. So I wanted to say to folks, please pray for the nation because people are so divided. People are divided on the vaccine. Also, Albin, you know that I did kind of this like joke tweet, this provocative tweet,

don't get the vaccine, pass it on. Like, who can't say that? Yeah. People went insane to the point where I thought, okay, I can't even be. provocative because people act like this as an ex-cathedra statement from the podium. Well, I took it down and I clarified with several tweets what my actual position was. Doesn't matter. The New York Times and others are still quoting the tweet that I took down and clarified. They don't care about the clarification. They care about the provocative tweet that I

deemed to provoke. I went the other way at church on Sunday. I was telling people I got the vaccine 42 times. So now I'm going around and healing people because I've been over vaccinated. That's funny. That's funny. I wasn't really ready for the funny stuff yet. But thank you. You're right. That's what we need to do. So that is funny, Albin. I'm just not prepared to laugh just yet. In a couple of minutes, I'll be there. All right, well, you wanted to talk about Mike Lindell's my slippers. So he's invented slippers. We got to pair around the house here. I'm not a slipper guy, but I got to tell you, you want to talk comfort. Here's what he did. There are soybeans. in the fill. This is totally true. They're U.S. grown soybeans. But what Mike didn't count on is that a Mexican

jumping bean leapt over the border. Yeah. Illegally. And made it with some of the U.S. grown soybeans. And so the soybeans that he's using, which even though they're U.S. grown, they have some Mexican jumping bean in their DNA. And so when you walk in the slippers, it's like flubber. It's like you're walking on air and they get they put a spring in your step it's unbelievable and we should never joke about immigration ever on this program but i want to tell you i'm going to read about that in the new york times i think people need to get these and they need to use the code eric i probably never mentioned that but we have a code eric if you buy anything at mypillow dot com my store dot com but seriously the slippers are amazing i mean are they not come on yeah you know i'm wait well no i'm waiting for mine but i've

all the bottom and the fact that yours are jumping around your your apartment right now is just amazing to me. Where can I, um, the allergies, I don't know if this happens to you, but the pollen is unbelievable. And I think, why am I so out of it? Like, I'm just not myself. I feel foggy. I'm, I'm off in many ways, in ways that I'm off even more than my normal off. And, uh, so if I feel a little, if I seem a little spacey today, that's what it is. Anyway, we got Ken Fish coming up. We got Ken Starr coming up before that. Albin, we have five grand prize winners,

our food for the core winners. We're going to announce that tomorrow. Tomorrow's the big day because they're still consolidating that huge list, but we're ready to announce five grand prize winners tomorrow on tomorrow show. Okay.

I got to say one other depressing thing. If you want to know how bad the culture is, I actually have pity. It's hard not to feel sad, but this guy, this rapper, a little NAS came out with these like Satan shoes and he did this disgusting video where he does,

like a lap dance with somebody dressed as Satan, right? So if that's not bad enough, SNL was making fun of it the other night. And they said, well, how about if we even it up and have him give a lap dance to God? Like this was funny. And so they bring out somebody dressed like Jesus and Lil Nas does like a quick lap dance for the Jesus figure.

And I thought, I thought we couldn't go farther in terms of like blasphemy and disrespecting, not just Jesus, but people who believe in Jesus on Easter weekend. this is what Lauren Michaels approves. This is what NBC approves. It's so nasty. It's so disrespectful to most Americans. I got to say I'm shocked.

I guess it paints itself as kind of like a mainstream comedy show. Well, if they would have done, if the lap dance would have been with Mohamed, that would have been the end of things. Yeah, do that to Moe and see what happens. Good old Moe. No, but it's just, I think that sometimes I almost feel sorry for people that are this dumb or this ignorant or this out of touch.

They think that that's okay, like that's appropriate. It's just, it's incredible. Anyway, we're going to have a lot of fun with Ken Starr and Ken Fish coming up. And then I've got some jokes that I want to share. Albin, we and I, we talked about this. I've got an idea for a movie. We'll share that at the end of the program, at the end of hour one today with Ken Starr. We'll save time for that.

We'll be right back. Yeah. Hey there, folks. How many years have I been telling you about relief factor? What, like four? The truth is, I know there are millions of people. In fact, some say over 100 million people struggling with some kind of pain, maybe from exercise, just getting older.

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We didn't know. Ken Norton. It turns out we have Ken Starr. Ken Starr. Welcome back. We love to see you at the time. Thank you, Eric. Great to be.

We have a new book out called Religious Liberty in Crisis, examining your faith in an age of uncertainty. Religious liberty in crisis. I know religious liberty is in crisis, but I rarely have anyone on who's written, whole book about it. And that's why we're thrilled to have you here because this is a very serious issue. So tell us why do you say religious liberties in crisis and why you feel so strongly about it that you wrote a whole book about it. Look at the pandemic. Look at the orders of governors and mayors

to close church services. Look at what is happening with respect to denying freedom of conscience, acts of conscience, Jack Phillips, the Baker. These examples are now legion. Litigation is underway around the country challenging conscience-based exemptions from generally applicable laws. It is the culture wars that has now come to and embodied in the so-called Equality Act, which is past the House of Representatives, which is now pending in the United States Senate, which by its terms would repeal for purposes of the public, we can get into the fancy stuff. But anyway, it seeks to repeal the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Every person who believes in freedom should know about the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

Congress is about to repeal it for purposes of all manner of activity, including churches and so forth. The great triumph of the 1990s is now in ashes in the year 2021. It has happened quickly. It is an onslaught. And so this is a sound the alarm, but not just sound the alarm. The alarms are sounding all over the country. Even pastors and priests and rabbisers talking about this in the pulpit. And God bless them for doing that.

But then, well, what do we do? What do we do? Well, that's, of course, the question, because people feel powerful. powerless, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, we now know it is, doesn't really seem to care about the founder's vision of America. Things like religious liberty, which should be sacrosanct, are suddenly, um, on the table as things we can, we can, we can, we can push off the table. So what can we do? I guess, let's, uh, let's, let's start with what you just, where you just ended. And here's the good news. The alarms are going off, but

there are lots of fire departments around. There are lots of places of refuge and succor. And they are called above all the courts of the United States, but especially not all the courts of the United States, but especially the Supreme Court of the United States. It is time and time again a friend of religious freedom, upholding values of religious liberty as against the onslaught of a very secular society. And at times, and we're now in one of those periods, when the executive branch of the United States government is going to align itself with the anti-religious liberty forces. And so here is the President of the United States, who was an enthusiastic supporter to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. No, he's walked it back. The little sisters of the poor

start providing contraceptives to your employees. It was just an unspeakable thing from 20 years ago has now become, well, this is now the law of the land. And this is what the president of the United States has undergone a cultural political epiphany. He is walking back from the positions that he took as a United States Senator and in a leadership position in the United States Senate. The culture has changed.

but the Supreme Court is there to help us, not necessarily the lower courts. Let's don't say, oh, what Star is saying is just go to your local federal district judge. No, no, no. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won. But the Supreme Court of the United States is our friend. And I also then in this book give you a way of speaking to your secular neighbor, to your secular club member. And even when the people in church, you know, well, wait a second.

Why doesn't Jack Phillips bake the bloody cake for the same-sex couple? What's wrong with that? It gives it, wait a second, in this country, we believe in freedom of conscience. And then here's a way of thinking about freedom of conscience. So in these 170 pages, Eric, what I've tried to do is here are the tools that you need, the great principles of religious freedom that have stood the test of time, but are under assault from the culture. religious liberty in crisis is the title religious liberty in crisis only 170 pages hardly even a book really

seriously though we are grateful to you ken star for putting it succinctly because i do feel you know this is true we've had it so good in america that we have taken our eyes off the ball if you if you're awash in religious liberty and you're awash in a in a general consensus of people who who appreciate the founder's vision even if they can't themselves articulate it you you you take your eye off of these things suddenly now these things are being challenged so we have to revisit them we have to understand what they are what we're in danger of losing and I think that what you just said about being able to talk about it when people make the point you just said you know bake the bloody cake that's not the issue

And that's what you are saying in the book and elsewhere is what I've been saying. It's not the issue whether he ought to bake the cake. If you or I were the bakers, maybe we'd bake the cake. That's not the issue. The issue is in America, the government cannot coerce people to do things against their conscience. And that is exactly the issue. But most people don't, they don't seem to get that. As you just said, even people in churches, they think, well, who cares, bake the cake?

This is an issue of principle. Explain that a little bit because I want to hear your perspective. I think a way to do it is true. You know, our Lord spoke through stories. Or if you prefer, Jesus of Nashville spoke through stories. Here's a great story. The story of these precious little girls during World War II who were being coerced by their school to engage in a flag salute ceremony. They could not do that in conscience. The Supreme Court of the United States just three years before that episode, it said, well, the state can do that. If the state wants to require patriotism, that's the business of the state in our federal republic.

But the Supreme Court of the United States thought through this issue again. And in a magnificent opinion, and I described this by Justice Robert Jackson. You don't need to go to law school to read the entire opinion. Don't worry. I have just key excerpts. And what Justice Jackson, for a supermajority of the Supreme Court, spoke to so eloquently, was in this country we enjoy freedom of the mind. That's the way you put it.

It can be free exercise, you know, freedom of speech. Think of the cancel culture. And so this is now part the idea of protecting acts of conscience, including of little school children who are coerced to go to school, right? They're not engaged in homeschooling. They've got to go to school, a private school or a public school. So they are coerced. They're in the army now.

but even in that context, they don't shed their rights at the schoolhouse gate, as the Supreme Court has put it in the, this was during the war, during the second war. And just to be clear, they were supposed to salute the flag. Is that the idea? That's the idea. And they couldn't do it because as devout Jehovah's witnesses. Right. They viewed it as a violation of the 10 commandments. Okay. Now, this is where you team me up to make this point all the more clearly. I, if I had a daughter or a son, in school would say, I'd love you to salute the flag. I like that idea. That has nothing to do with whether the government can force children to do this. If I tell my daughter that I want you to do it, I'm free to do that. If I tell my daughter, I don't want you to do it. I'm free to do that. It's not a question of what I feel. It's a question of what the government can coerce. And I think we have to make this point in a way that we never did before. That in America, we're in the business of telling people you are free. You're free to say things that I find vile that I disagree with.

You're free to do things or not do things that we disagree with. And I just want to make this point, Ken, because so many people really don't get this. As you just said, they say, well, for crying out loud, what's wrong with saluting the flag? There's nothing wrong with suiting the flag. The point is the government cannot and should not. coerce it. And I know you talk about this. Folks, the book is Religious Liberty in Crisis, examining, exercising, sorry, your faith in an age of uncertainty. Tell us a little bit about the COVID restrictions, and then we'll go to a break and we'll come back and keep talking about that.

Yeah, the COVID restrictions were wildly wrong in so many states. And that is, okay, you can have a maximum of, in New York, you can have a maximum of 10 people in this place of worship. You can have 25. It's very complicated. What Governor Cuomo's people came up with was unbelievably complicated. Here's the Supreme Court is now written to the rescue again and say, wait a second. If you're keeping Walmart open, you have to keep the churches open. Okay. Folks, we're talking to Ken Starr. That's right. Ken Starr. Don't go away. It's the Eric Mataxis show. Don't forget to use the code Eric. If you go to my Pillow.com or my store.com will be right back.

Hey, folks, you certainly heard me talk about my pillow and how their products have literally changed my life. Now, have you tried the pillow? They don't go flat. You can wash them, dry them as many times as you want, and they maintain their shape. They're made in the USA, and for a limited time, Mike Lundell is offering his premium my pillows for the lowest price ever. You can get a standard queen premium my pillow for 2998. It's originally 69.998. That's a $40 savings. are only $5 more. Remember, all MyPillow products come with a 60-day money-back guarantee and a 10-year warranty. Just go to MyPillow.com, click on the radio listeners square and use promo code, Eric. There, you'll find not only this amazing offer, but also deep discounts on all My Pillar products,

including the Giza Dream Bedsheets, the My Pillar Mattress Topper, and My Pillow Towers. Folks, you know I use these products and they're fantastic. Call 800-9783057 and use promo code Eric, or call 800-978-3057. Use the promo code, Eric. Folks, I'm talking to Ken Starr. He has a new book out called Religious Liberty in Crisis. Ken, you were talking about how governors, I mean, I think that one of the big headlines of the last year

is that most of us who live in America never really think much about our governors or about our mayors, which is great. You know, that government is best, which governs least. they do certain things and certain things they don't do. Suddenly, they are required to have the wisdom to understand the view of the founders and what is too much government and how much they can coerce citizens. And most of them, especially in blue states, who have a very favorable view of big government, they really got it terribly, terribly wrong. You were talking about Cuomo,

Gavin Newsom, I mean, staggering ineptitude, staggering ignorance of the founder's vision. Were you surprised to see it? I was a little bit surprised, I confess. Well, I was because of the ridiculousness of saying church's need and gas stations. But notice, in other words, there's certain things that are, quote, necessary for people to carry on their lives. Well, guess what? For people of faith, that includes coming together in a congregation and worshiping, not just being online. And there were disparate rules being applied. And finally, the Supreme Court in December, it was a nice Christmas present, really got with the program and said, you know what? And it was in the Governor Cuomo situation and Bill de Blasio situation. You know, you've gone too far. You're treating the Walmarts of the world one way. But you can't discriminate against religious faith. Now, it's not as if we are exempt, right?

Congregations are not exempt from all regulation. So let's don't over-argue the case. But we are free and must be free from being singled out for unfavorable treatment. And that's what we're going to. Here's my question. How is it possible that you need to get the Supreme Court involved in something that Any idiot in America sees it. You don't need to be a genius.

You don't need to be a scholar. You don't need to be elected. Anyone knows that this is preposterous. So my question is, do you think there's an animus on the parts of governors like Cuomo and Newsom against people of faith? I don't know how else to read their thinking. Yeah, it's hard.

I mean, you try to think well of people and not impute nasty motives to them. but it is hard. But whatever the motive is, happily, the Supreme Court has ridden to the rescue and just said, cut it out. And I think things are a lot better now in terms of course, with vaccinations and what have you. But I think the law is now clear that you just can't single out houses of worship for less favorable treatment than Caesar's Palace. And that was the Nevada case.

that was one of the cases that came before the Supreme Court, which was just appalling. Now, the Supreme Court did not get that one right, but they were struggling toward this, this was upon an emergency appeal, that kind of thing. But once they have the chance, come Christmas time to really reflect on what was going on around the country, they came down with the hammer of freedom. They said, no, you've got to stop this, governors and mayors. Well, okay, so you're saying basically that because the Supreme Court gets, this, they are the backstop, and we can pretty much rely on them. So is there a way to accelerate

getting cases in front of them? I mean, I don't know how many cases they can look at. Yeah. The short answer is yes, and that's where these great friends of freedom come in. And so not only do we have the great principles of freedom and freedom of conscience, the government can't coerce you, et cetera, government can't discriminate against religious. These are very important principles. But who will be our soldiers? Who will be our advocates? And here's the other good news. We have great advocates, right? We have alliance defending freedom. I can go through these groups, First Liberty, the Beckett Fund on the Catholic side. We have powerful advocates. And I'll say one thing that folks can do, I hope they'll purchase my book. What may be even more important is become a friend of

a friend of liberty and support our soldiers out in the field. We rightly honor as American patriots our soldiers in uniform. And now we honor our first responders. We need to honor our first friends of freedom. You mentioned the three again, the Beckett Fund, ADF. Right. Alliance defending freedom, first liberty, right? And there are others that are out there.

I don't mean to explain. Well, I just want to say the Beckett Fund, they're not really, I mean, they're not actually Catholic in the sense that they're, I mean, some of the leadership is. Right. They are also defending religious liberty. Absolutely. People need to know, and I'm glad you brought it up. First Liberty, that's Kelly Shackleford, the Alliance Defending Freedom, and the Beckett Fund. They are heroes.

And they've been heroes for many years now, for decades, some of them, because they understand this. and they do take these things to the highest court. I still, I'm dismayed in a sense that we even have to think about taking these things to the highest court. And I'm staggered that we in America have elected leaders who, it's not just that they don't seem to be on the same wavelength. They seem really to be dismissive of people of faith. And I would say of traditional American values. And that really is a staggering thing. And it's a reminder to be careful whom you vote for because at times, like,

this, which are unprecedented, it's suddenly these things matter and suddenly the views of a Cuomo, they're highlighted, and it's unfortunate. Folks, I'm talking to Ken Starr. The book is Religious Liberty in Crisis. I hope you get a copy. It's only 170 pages. My goodness, you can read it in a moment. Religious Liberty in Crisis with Ken Starr. He's my guest. Don't go away. I'm going. Soot's and the plans they may put an end to you. I walked out this morning and I wrote down this song. I just can't remember who.

Folks, I'm talking to Ken Starr. The book is Religious Liberty in Crisis. Very important right now. I hope you get a copy, Religious Liberty in Crisis. Ken, let's talk about what you were just mentioning on the break, the autonomy of religious institutions. This is one of our most fundamental. freedom freedoms. We do not want the government to be telling the church, religious institutions,

and religiously affiliated organizations, here is what you're going to be doing. Here's what you're not going to be doing. And the Supreme Court of the United States has been a great friend of this idea of autonomy. Very quick example, Christian school in the Midwest gets into a squabble with the teacher and they fire the teacher. And the federal EEOC is. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission comes in and takes the side of the teacher. The teacher was fired because she threatened litigation, and the Lutheran school said, the Apostle Paul, St. Paul, said, don't do that. And so you're violating the strictures of our faith, the tenets of our faith, and so forth. The EEOC took the side of the teacher. And it's a very sympathetic situation.

But the Obama era EEOC said, we're for the teacher. The Supreme Court of the United States said nine to nothing. We're in favor of the school. EEOC, stop interfering with this very important aspect of autonomy of this church school to decide who will teach these precious little children. Autonomy. We do not want, as in China, right, the Roman Catholic Church bishops to be selected by Xi Jinping, right? we want the ability of religious organizations institutions, including parish church organizations, to be free from the shackles of Caesar. Well, isn't that the issue with the so-called Equality Act that the government is, it's going where it ought not to go?

American government has never gone there before. And again, most of us are so, we've been so blessed with religious liberty that we haven't really thought about what are the parameters of religious liberty? When is the government overreaching? So one of the positive things is that a lot of Americans are for the first time actually thinking about this issue. Would not the Equality Act abrogate some of the liberties that we have that you've just been talking about? There is no question. It purports, and this is so appalling, it is shocking. It purports to repeal for purposes of this very important 1964 Civil Rights Act, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. That is so audacious. How dare you? The Religious

Freedom Restoration Act, which did in fact restore religious freedom in the face of a very wrongheaded Supreme Court decision. It was well-intentioned. But it said in effect, as long as the law is general, not aimed at religion, it applies to everybody, then there are no exemptions. The idea of no religious-based exemptions is so inimical to the idea of free exercise of religion, and they should, in fact, be traditionally enforceable. But the Equality Act is going to change all that. So churches, beware. Church camps, forget about it. In my state of Texas, the Baptist alone have 27 church camps in the Lone Star State. Every state is going to have some kind of church or religious camp, Christian, Jewish, whatever it is. Those camps are now.

going to be regulated under the Equality Act if it passes the Senate and President Biden, who supports it, signs it into law, then watch out because the police are going to be, so to speak, the civil rights police are going to be all over you. Meaning what? In other words, what is the kind of a thing that will come up and be a problem? Well, same-sex restrooms, hiring decisions with respect to certain. So hiring decisions. Let's say somebody who is openly transgender or openly same sex says, I want to work in a church camp. The church camp may say, we love you, but we don't agree with your public position if the position has been public. And so we wouldn't hire someone like that.

Right. So the government. Go ahead. Well, I'm saying, now the government will come in and say, no, no, no, no, you have no right. We don't care what you believe. We don't care that this is a church. camp, we're going to force you to hire people that are opposed to your basic values. The very idea of the camp is to teach these values. The government now is going to force those camps to hire people who disagree with their values, or whether somebody is openly pro-abortion. These are the kinds of things that the government is going to step in on with the Equality Act. Well, and I'm glad that you mentioned abortion because there is a very strong view. This has to be sorted out in the courts,

of course, that if in fact someone espoused a pro-abortion pro-choice kind of position, then or are just openly saying, you need to have kids at a girls camp, reproductive freedom, et cetera, you're going to have to hire that person or not discharge that person, even though it's totally antithetical to the basic tenets of your faith. this is so far-reaching and the like, so we do need to sound the alarm. Now, hope is not lost because, heaven forbid, if it does pass, Eric, it's still going to have to face First Amendment challenge. But let's don't go there. Let's, as we say, out of the West, let's cut it off of the past. Let's urge the Senate not to, in fact, enact this statute.

I'm fascinated really that we're here in America. And I do think the good news is that it's a wake-up call for many Americans. Many Americans who are just coasting along didn't think they needed to do much, suddenly realize that they have a role in keeping the Republic and that if they don't step up and do something and acquaint themselves with what's happening, we lose it. And that's exactly what's happening right now. When you say cutting it off at the past, obviously we want to defeat the Equality Act. are you saying that it couldn't go into effect because people would challenge it in the courts immediately?

No, it can go into effect and it will be a long time. And we don't know how long that's going to be before the Supreme Court of the United States actually then faces a real case where the Equality Act has been imposed taking away people's freedom. So it's going to be, if it is passed, it's going to be enforced under federal law, including by individuals going into court. filing their own individual lawsuits against churches and other religious organizations. I see church camps as being, they're just gone. It's just a stunning thing. It's a stunning thing. And it's one of the reasons I'm just thrilled that you're out there.

I'm thrilled you wrote this book. Folks, the book is called Religious Liberty and Crisis, exercising your faith in an age of uncertainty. And we do have to exercise our faith. It's not enough simply to have it in our heads. we're told in the Constitution, we can have a free exercise. So folks, exercise your faith as boldly as possible. It is your right.

Ken Starr, a joy to have you. Congratulations on the book. And thank you for your time. Oh, thank you, Eric. It's a great privilege and blessing to be with you. Thank you. Hey, Albin. Yes.

SalemNow.com. There are a plethora or is there is a plethora. Actually, I don't know. We're going to have to look that up. Is plethora plural or singular? Anyway, there's a whole bunch of movies at salem now.com. The one that we're promoting now is called church people. Why are we promoting it?

Because it's an Easter story, and it is starring a whole raft of Baldwin's, not quite a plethora, but a whole raft of Baldwin's. You've got Billy Baldwin, our buddy Stephen Baldwin. and Billy's wife, China, Phillips, Baldwin, who was on this program last Monday, giving her Miracle Monday story. By the way, she's going to be on TBN. We're going to air that on TBN, and then we're going to put it on YouTube so everyone can watch it in case you miss the TBN program.

But, Alvin, I've got to say that I've been thinking about movies, movie ideas of my own. I don't know. Do you have a movie idea you want to share? Now, I just want to be clear. If you go to SalemNow.com and use the code Eric, you should get a discount, but the movie I'm going to talk about right now is just a theoretical movie. Yeah, I just thinking of writing plethora, the movie.

Plethora the movie. No kidding. I came up with a movie idea. People say, hey, Eric, what did you do on Easter? Well, I went down to New Jersey to hang out with Suzanne's family. And Suzanne's brother, Tommy and I, went into the basement to kind of,

you know, there's just a lot of stuff that needs to be gone through. and we're in the basement and I look up and Tommy my brother-in-law says hey look you see this crawl space here at the end of that crawl space look there's a hammer because I was looking for a hammer

and I thought I don't really want to crawl into the crawl space to go get the hammer I'm just going to leave the hammer in there and then I thought about the idea of crawl spaces in general and I thought wouldn't that be a great title for a movie? Crawl space Wow okay

because it evokes a lot of stuff that you don't want to invoke. What's in the crawl space? Would you go into the crawl space? I mean, just the term crawl space to me, it just makes me squirm. Am I alone in that? No, you're not.

I might go to IMDB.com and see if they actually do have a crawl space movie. It's a great horror title, obviously. That's what I'm saying. It's like it's one of those titles, crawl space. You know, crawl space. The movie.

Crawl space. It's on a double bill with plethora, the movie. Actually, no, I think of, movies, like you think what could be a title for movie, like what's a dumb movie? How about Car Wash? Do you remember that in the 70s? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, car wash. It was an entire movie titled Car Wash about a car wash. So I think Crawl Space would be a great title. By the way, use cars is a very funny movie. If you've never seen News Cars. I'm not seen that one. But that's two words. Car Wash and Crawl Space are really, I think those are, that's one word.

My brother came up with an idea for a movie. He said, traffic jam. That's a great idea for a movie. Like, you're driving along and there's a traffic jam. This is kind of a 70s idea. And suddenly, like, traffic comes to a stop and people get out of their cars. They start talking. Relationships form.

Yes. Can you picture it? Yeah, I'm picturing it. I'm picturing it. Anyway. Okay. I'm glad. I just looked up crawl space and there's several small feature.

It's called a short feature. There's several short features called underneath Crawl Space. There are movies called Carl Space, Vital Crawl Space. Anyway, I just thought it was a great idea. A musical, maybe a musical. I'm going to make this movie. It's going to be like I Am John Malkovich or whatever that title was, being John Malcovic. It's going to be kind of like that.

Like you go into the Crawl Space and you know, you come out in the Neolithic era. By the way, speaking of double features, we have another Ken coming up in Hour 2. I was just going to say, Hour 2, Ken Fish, as you've never heard him. or seen him before. Ken Fish in hour two. Tomorrow we have our friend. Who do we have on tomorrow? Naomi Wolf tomorrow.

Folks, you don't want to miss that one. We're out of time. Don't forget to go to mypillow.com. Use the code Eric. And if you want to get most of my books, they're available at my store.com. Tremendous prices if you use the code Eric. We'll be back for hour two with Ken Fish.

Stick around. Thank you.