The Eric Metaxas Show - Ken Starr (Encore)

Episode Date: April 23, 2021

Judge Ken Starr, in his new book "Religious Liberty in Crisis," warns of some of the challenges ahead for people who believe in the Bible. (Encore Presentation)

to the Eric Mettaxas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. As you know, I'm a fan of religious liberty. Yeah, that's right. I said it. And, you know, I'm a fan of those people who get behind religious liberty. For example, the Alliance defending freedom. Oh, yes, you've heard about them.

I wanted to talk to Tyson Langhofer. He's a senior counsel with ADF to kind of get an update. on what's cooking. Tyson, welcome back. Thanks for having me here. Well, I am a big fan of ADF, and I guess I wanted to talk to you about the Meriwether case, Dr. Nicholas Meriwether. Tell my audience, who is that and what is this case that ADF is involved with right now. Well, Dr. Meriwether is a professor of philosophy and religion at Shawnee State University. Been there for over 20 years and has a spotless record up until a couple years ago when he had a male student in his class who demanded to be referred to as a female.

And Dr. Meriwether indicated that, well, I can't do that, but I will refer to you by whatever name you choose. And I'll just avoid the use of pronouns. The student complained to the university, the university investigated and found that Dr. Meriwether had created a hostile environment. And they put a letter in his file saying that he had violated their non-discrimination policy and that if he did this in the future, that he would be further punished. So we filed a lawsuit and just recently had some great news from the Sixth Circuit. You had good news from the, now ADF, you guys are pretty good. So I'm never surprised to hear good news, but I'm always pleased. So tell us what happened. Yeah, well, the court held that titles and

pronouns, they express a message and they're part of an important ongoing debate. And the court held that government can't compel ideological purity. And they said basically the court has great opinion. It said if it had that power, then a university could require a professor to, a pacifist professor to argue that war is just or a civil rights icon to criticize the freedom rioters or an atheist to be compelled to affirm that God exists. And they said that no one should be forced to express a message that violates their convictions. And so they upheld Dr. Marywether's rights. What had happened was the district court had dismissed the case and held that he didn't state any claims. So the Sixth Circuit's reversed that opinion and said that he had, in fact,

stated First Amendment claims that if he proves what he alleged that he should win, because the government can't force professors to speak messages they disagree with. This is a very big deal, Tyson, isn't it? I mean, honestly, this is great news. As I'm hearing you explain it, I am surprised, frankly. I'm not surprised to hear that ADF1, but I'm surprised in a case like this, because we're living in such politically charged times

that a Sixth Circuit Court actually understood that this was compelled speech. Yeah, absolutely. it's very encouraging. Because what they understood was that if a university could punish Dr. Meriwether for declining to use a pronoun, for declining to express a message that he agreed with, it also could allow a public university who said, we believe in the biological reality, and we're not going to allow any professors to use preferred pronouns or to use gender identity pronouns.

It also has that right. So this protects all professors, not just Dr. Meriwether, but all professors. And it protects academic freedom and the ability to discuss important ideas. They recognize that gender identity is an important debate that's going on right now. And then if it suppresses Dr. Meriwether's beliefs here, it's going to suppress an important debate on an important topic. I really, I'm amazed that we had a good decision on something like this. Now, I don't know much about how the law works. What kind of a precedent does this set? Have we had cases like this that have gone in the other direction? How far does the jurisdiction of this court go? So this is a really important case. This is the first case at the circuit level to address the issue. a professor being forced to use a preferred pronoun or being forced to speak messages they

disagrees with on the gender identity topic. So it's really big. It does only apply in the Sixth Circuit. However, this, you know, the circuits, they know what other circuits are doing and it will send a big message out there. And so it applies only to the states in the Sixth Circuit. But it is the Fourth Circuit to uphold the rights of professors to say that the professor, have free speech rights when they're in their classroom on issues of teaching and scholarship, because that is a topic that's still out there. And this is the fourth one. And it's the second case that ADF has been involved with. We also set the precedent in the Fourth Circuit as well. But, you know, I think one of the bigger topics here, Eric, that's important for people understand

is that Dr. Meriwether is just another example of the coercive forces trying to compel people to say things they don't believe, including about the nature of life. what it means to be men and a woman. And this isn't limited just professors. You know, we see it with female athletes. We see it with women's shelters. And then the Equality Act, which Congress is currently considering. And what I think this tells everybody, all of your listeners, is that when we courageously

stand against the intolerant cancel culture, we can win. And not just protect our rights, but the rights of all Americans. This is really big news. I, you know, we've talked a lot with ADF counsel on this. program, but this is the, it's the first time that I'm really surprised because we're living in such an ideological time. The idea that a court in 2021 understood the common sense behind this and understood what free speech is and what it is not, it's, it is a big deal. I guess it gives me hope for the culture, and it must you as well. It absolutely does. And what it shows me, Eric, is that when

You know, we can't win if we don't stand. But when we stand and when we stand together, we can ensure we remain a truly diverse and tolerant nation that rejects cancel culture. But we just need more Dr. Maryweathers. We need more people that are willing to stand up and say, there is an objective truth. And when we live in a culture that rejects truth,

people are going to be hurt. And we need to be able to speak the truth so that the society is able to flourish. Well, what's fascinating to me is the arbitrariness. of this gender conversation. In other words, people saying that I, you know, I'm a woman, I want you to call me by that. How is that somehow an inherent issue? In other words, why couldn't I say, I want everybody to call me, you know, Captain Kirk, Captain Tiberius Kirk from the Starship Enterprise. I demand it. And if you don't do that, I'm offended. We're not there yet, but if you look at it legally, it's the same concept. It's arbitrary.

It's being forced on people like this Professor Meriwether. And you have to have courts kind of come in and say, we cannot force someone to do that just because someone else suggested. But I'm still just impressed that with the transgender lobby and with the ideology that we're getting in the culture along these lines, that this court was able to do that. would it have gone another way in another court? I mean, what is your guess? What do you think? Well, I mean, here's the good news. The good news is this is based on longstanding precedent. The Supreme Court has never allowed the government to compel speech.

They've never held in the case that the government can compel speech. And so it's not like they're treading new ground. You're right that on this topic, it is ideologically charged right now. But they have, they based this decision in longstanding precedent that we have to zealously, protect academic freedom, and we have to zealously push back on the government officials trying to force people. Because of this, it strikes me that because of the bravery of Dr. Meriwether and because of ADF, people can now live out their faith and say, I'm not going to go along with that. There's a ruling. I don't need to go along with that. If only they'll have the

guts to do so. Absolutely. That's absolutely right. I'm hoping, and what we've seen is that courage begets courage. And when somebody like Dr. Meriwether stands, we've had a lot of people reach out to us, people that are not ideologically aligned with him saying, thank you for taking a stand. I feel like I'm being suppressed on campus. Exactly. Tyson Langhofer, thank you so much. Thanks, Eric. Hey, folks, listen, every generation faces a unique moment when it's called on to defend the guarantee of liberty. And may I say it that this is your moment, this is our moment. Today, we can stand for freedom. You can stand for freedom with alliance defending freedom, please go to ADFlegal.org. That's ADFlegal.org slash Eric. ADFlegal.org slash Eric, or for more information call 855-547-53. Hey there, folks, how many years have I been

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Squadpod.com slash Eric. Check it out. Folks, welcome back. I promised you a Ken. Can Fish, Ken Star. We didn't know. Ken Norton. It turns out we have Ken Starr.

Ken Starr, welcome back. We love to see you at the time. Thank you, Eric. Great to be. We have a new book out called Religious Liberty in Crisis, examining your faith in an age of uncertainty. Religious liberty in crisis. I know religious liberty is in crisis,

but I rarely have anyone on who's written a whole book about it, and that's why we're thrilled to have you here, because this is a very serious issue. So tell us why do you say religious liberties in crisis and why you feel so strongly about it that you wrote a whole book about it. Look at the pandemic. Look at the orders of governors and mayors to close church services. Look at what is happening with respect to denying freedom of conscience, acts of conscience,

Jack Phillips, the Baker. These examples are now legion. Litigation is underway around the country, challenging. conscience-based exemptions from generally applicable laws. It is the culture wars that has now come to and embodied in the so-called Equality Act, which is past the House of Representatives, which is now pending in the United States Senate, which by its terms would repeal for purposes of the public, we can get into the fancy stuff, but anyway, it seeks to repeal the relationship,

Religious Freedom Restoration Act, every person who believes in freedom should know about the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Congress is about to repeal it for purposes of all manner of activity, including churches and so forth. The great triumph of the 1990s is now in ashes in the year 2021. It has happened quickly. It is an onslaught. And so this is a soundly alarm, but not just sound the alarm. alarms are sounding all over the country. Even pastors and priests and rabbisers talking about this in the pulpit. And God bless them for doing that. But then what do we do? What do we do? Well, that's, of course, the question, because people feel powerless. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the D.C. Swamp, which we now know it is, doesn't really seem to care about the founder's vision of America.

Things like religious liberty, which should be sacrosanct, are suddenly on the table as things we can push off the table. So what can we do? I guess let's start with where you just ended. And here's the good news. The alarms are going off, but there are lots of fire departments around. There are lots of places of refuge and succor. And they are called above all the courts of the United States, but it's a lot of. especially not all the courts of the United States, but especially the Supreme Court of the United States.

It is time and time again a friend of religious freedom, upholding values of religious liberty as against the onslaught of a very secular society. And at times, and we're now in one of those periods, when the executive branch of the United States government is going to align itself. with the anti-religious liberty forces. And so here is the President of the United States, who was an enthusiastic supporter to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. No, he's walked it back. The little sisters of the poor, start providing contraceptives to your employees. It was just an unspeakable thing from 20 years ago has now become, well, this is now the law of the land. and this is what the president of the United States has undergone a cultural political epiphany. He is walking back from the positions that he took as a United States Senator and in a leadership position of the United States Senate.

The culture has changed, but the Supreme Court is there to help us, not necessarily the lower courts. Let's don't say, oh, what Star is saying is just go to your local federal district judge. No, no, no. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won. But the Supreme Court of the United States is our friend. And I also then in this book give you a way of speaking to your secular neighbor, to your secular club member. And even when the people in church, you know, well, wait a second.

Why doesn't Jack Phillips bake the bloody cake for the same-sex couple? What's wrong with that? It gives it, wait a second, in this country we believe in freedom of conscience. and then here's a way of thinking about freedom of conscience. So in these 170 pages, Eric, what I've tried to do is here are the tools that you need, the great principles of religious freedom that have stood the test of time but are under assault from the culture. Religious liberty in crisis is the title. Religious liberty in crisis, only 170 pages, hardly even a book, really.

Seriously, though, we are grateful to you, Ken Starr, for, putting it succinctly, because I do feel, you know this is true, we've had it so good in America that we have taken our eyes off the ball. If you're awash in religious liberty and you're awash in a general consensus of people who appreciate the founder's vision, even if they can't themselves articulate it, you take your eye off of these things. Suddenly now these things are being challenged. So we have to revisit them. We have to understand what they are, what we're in danger of losing. And I think that what you just said about being able to talk about it, when people make the point, you just said, you know, bake the bloody cake. That's not the issue. And that's what you

are saying in the book. And I'll elsewhere, it's what I've been saying. It's not the issue whether he ought to bake the cake. If you or I were the bakers, maybe we'd bake the cake. That's not the issue. The issue is in America. the government cannot coerce people to do things against their conscience. And that is exactly the issue. But most people don't, they don't seem to get that. As you just said, even people in churches, they think, well, who cares? Bake the cake.

This is an issue of principle. Explain that a little bit because I want to hear your perspective. I think a way to do it is true. You know, our Lord spoke through stories. Or if you prefer Jesus of Nashville spoke through stories, here's a great story. The story of these precious little girls during World War II who were being coerced by their school to engage in a flag salute ceremony. They could not do that in conscience. The Supreme Court of the United States just three years before that episode had said, well, the state can do that.

If the state wants to require patriotism, that's the business of the state in our federal republic. But the Supreme Court of the United States thought through this issue again. and in a magnificent opinion, and I described this by Justice Robert Jackson, you don't need to go to law school to read the entire opinion. Don't worry. I have just key excerpts. And what Justice Jackson, for a supermajority of the Supreme Court, spoke to so eloquently, was in this country, we enjoy freedom of the mind.

That's the way you put it. It can be free exercise, you know, freedom of speech, think of the cancel culture. And so this is now part. idea of protecting acts of conscience, including of little school children who are coerced to go to school, right? If they're not engaged in homeschooling, they've got to go to school, a private school or a public school. So they are coerced. They're in the army now. But even in that context, they don't shed their rights at the schoolhouse gate, as the Supreme Court has. So this was during the war, during the second war. And just to be clear, they were supposed to salute the

flag, is that the idea? That's the idea, and they couldn't do it because as devout Jehovah's witnesses, they viewed it as a violation of the 10 commandments. Okay. Now, this is where you team me up to make this point all the more clearly. I, if I had a daughter or a son in school, would say, I'd love you to salute the flag. I like that idea. That has nothing to do with whether the government can force children to do this. If I tell my daughter that I want you to do it, that's, I'm free to do that. If I tell my daughter, I don't want you to do it, I'm free to do that. It's not a question of what I feel. It's a question of what the government can coerce. And I think we have to make this point in a way that we never did before. In America, we're in the business of telling people you are

free. You're free to say things that I find vile that I disagree with. You're free to do things or not do things that we disagree with. And I just, I want to make this point, Ken, because so many people really don't get this. As you just said, they say, well, for crying out loud, what's wrong with saluting the flag? There's nothing wrong with suiting the flag. The point is the government cannot and should not coerce it. And I know you talk about this. Folks, the book is religious liberty in crisis. Examin, exercising, sorry, you're. faith in an age of uncertainty. Tell us a little bit about the COVID restrictions, and then we'll go to a break, and we'll come back and keep talking about that. Yeah, the COVID restrictions were

wildly wrong in so many states, and that is, okay, you can have a maximum of, in New York, you can have a maximum of 10 people in this place of worship, or you can have 25. It's very complicated what Governor Cuomo's people came up with was unbelievably complicated. Here's the Supreme Court is now written to the rescue again and saying, wait a second. If you're keeping Walmart open, you have to keep the churches open. Okay, folks, we're talking to Ken Starr. That's right. Ken Starr, don't go away.

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and feel the inspiring legacy left to us by those faithful followers of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Folks, I'm talking to Ken Starr. He has a new book out called Religious Liberty in Crisis. Ken, you were talking about how governors, I mean, I think that one of the big headlines of the last year is that most of us who live in America never really think much about our governors or about our mayors, which is great. You know, that government is best, which governs least. They do certain things and certain things they don't do.

Suddenly, they are required to have the wisdom, to understand. the view of the founders and what is too much government and how much they can coerce citizens. And most of them, especially in blue states, who have a very favorable view of big government, they really got it terribly, terribly wrong. You were talking about Cuomo, Gavin Newsom, I mean, staggering ineptitude, staggering ignorance of the founder's vision. Were you surprised to see it? I was a little bit surprised. I confess. Well, I was because of the ridiculousness of saying churches need and gas stations. But notice, in other words, there are certain things that are, quote, necessary for people to carry on their lives.

Well, guess what? For people of faith, that includes coming together in a congregation and worshiping, not just being online. And there were disparate rules being applied. and finally the Supreme Court in December, it was a nice Christmas present, really got with the program and said, you know what, and it was in the Governor Cuomo situation and Bill de Blasio situation.

You know, you've gone too far. You're treating the Walmarts of the world one way, but you can't discriminate against religious faith. Now, it's not as if we are exempt, right? Congregations are not exempt from all regulations. So let's don't over argue the case. But we are free and must be free from being singled out for unfavorable treatment. And that's what was.

Here's my question. How is it possible that you need to get the Supreme Court involved in something that any idiot in America sees it? You don't need to be a genius. You don't need to be a scholar. You don't need to be elected. Anyone knows that this is preposterous. So my question is, why do you think, do you think? think there's an animus on the parts of governors like Cuomo and Newsom against people of faith?

I don't know how else to read their thinking. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, you try to think well of people and not impute nasty motives to them, but it is hard. But whatever the motive is, happily the Supreme Court has ridden to the rescue and just said, cut it out. And I think things are a lot better now in terms of course with vaccinations and what have you. But I think the law is now clear that you just can't single out houses of worship for less favorable treatment than Caesar's Palace. And that was the Nevada case. That was one of the cases that came before the Supreme Court, which was just appalling. Now, the Supreme Court did not get

that one right, but they were struggling toward this was on an emergency appeal, that kind of thing. once they have the chance come Christmas time to really reflect on what was going on around the country, they came down with the hammer of freedom. They said, no, you've got to stop this, governors and mayors. Okay. So you're saying basically that because the Supreme Court gets this, they are the backstop and we can pretty much rely on them. So is there a way to accelerate getting cases in front of them? I mean, I don't know how many cases they can look at. Yeah, the short answer is yes, and that's where these great friends of freedom come in. And so not only do we have the great principles of freedom and freedom of conscience, the government can't coerce you, etc., government can't discriminate against religious. These are very important principles. But who will be our soldiers? Who will be our advocates? And here's the other good news. We have great advocates, right? We have alliance to defending freedom. I can go through these groups, First Liberty, the Beckett Fund on the Catholic

side. We have powerful advocates. And I'll say one thing that folks can do, I hope they'll purchase my book. What may be even more important is become a friend of freedom, a friend of liberty, and support our soldiers out in the field. We rightly honor as American patriots, our soldiers in uniform. And now we honor our first responders. We need to honor our first friends of freedom. You mentioned the three again, the Beckett Fund, ADF. Right. Alliance defending freedom, first liberty, right? And there are others that are out there. And I don't mean to excuse me. Well, I just want to say the Beckett Fund, they're not really, I mean, they're not actually Catholic in the sense that they're, I mean, some of the leadership is. They are also defending religious liberty.

Absolutely. People need to know, and I'm glad you brought it up. First Liberty, that's Kelly Shackleford, the Alliance Defending Freedom, and the Beckett Fund. They are heroes. And they've been heroes for many years now, for decades, some of them, because they understand this. And they do take these things to the highest court. I still, I'm dismayed in a sense that we even have to think about taking these things to the highest court. And I'm staggered that we in America have a less.

leaders who it's not just that they don't seem to be on the same wavelength. They seem really to be dismissive of people of faith. And I would say of traditional American values. And that really is a staggering thing. And it's a reminder to be careful whom you vote for because at times like this, which are unprecedented, it's suddenly these things matter and suddenly the views of Aquomo. They're highlighted. And it's unfortunate.

Folks, I'm talking to Ken Star. The book is religious. Liberty in crisis. I hope you get a copy. It's only 170 pages. My goodness, you can read it in a moment. Religious Liberty in Crisis with Ken Starr. He's my guest.

Don't go away. Suits and the plans they may put an end to you. I walked out this morning and I rode down this song. Folks, I'm talking to Ken Starr. The book is Religious Liberty in Crisis. Very important right now. I hope you get a copy. Religious Liberty in Crisis.

this. Ken, let's talk about what you were just mentioning on the break, the autonomy of religious institutions. This is one of our most fundamental freedoms. We do not want the government to be telling the church, religious institutions, and religiously affiliated organizations. Here is what you're going to be doing. Here's what you're not going to be doing. And the Supreme Court of the United States has been a great friend of this idea of autonomy. Very quick example. Christian school in the Midwest gets into a squabble with the teacher and they fire the teacher. And the federal EEOC Equal Employment Opportunity Commission comes in and takes the side of the teacher. The teacher was fired because she threatened litigation.

And the Lutheran school said, the Apostle Paul, St. Paul, said, don't do that. And so you're violating the strictures of our faith, the tenets of our faith and so forth. The EEOC took the side of the teacher. And it's a very sympathetic situation. But the Obama era EEOC said, we're for the teacher. The Supreme Court of the United States said nine to nothing. We're in favor of the school. EEOC stop interfering with this very important aspect of autonomy of this church school

to decide who will teach these precious little children. autonomy. We do not want, as in China, right, the Roman Catholic Church bishops to be selected by Xi Jinping, right? We want the ability of religious organizations, institutions, including parochurch organizations, to be free from the shackles of Caesar. Well, isn't that the issue with the so-called Equality Act, that the government is going where, it ought not to go. American government has never gone there before. And again, most of us are so, we've been so blessed with religious liberty that we haven't really thought about what are the parameters of religious liberty. When is the government overreaching? So one of the positive

things is that a lot of Americans are for the first time actually thinking about this issue. Would not the Equality Act abrogate some of the liberties that we have that you've just been talking about? There is no question. It purports, and this is so appalled. It is shocking. It purports to repeal for purposes of this very important 1964 Civil Rights Act, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. That is so audacious. How dare you?

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which did, in fact, restore religious freedom in the face of a very wrongheaded Supreme Court decision. It was well-intentioned. But it said in effect, as long as the law is general, not aimed at religion, it applies to everybody, then there are no exemptions. The idea of no religious-based exemptions is so inimical to the idea of free exercise of religion, and they should, in fact, be traditionally enforceable. But the Equality Act is going to change all that. So churches, beware, church camps, forget about it. In my state of Texas, the Baptist alone have 27 church

camps in the Lone Star State. Every state is going to have some kind of church or religious camp, Christian, Jewish, whatever it is. Those camps are now going to be regulated under the Equality Act. If it passes the Senate and President Biden, who supports it, signs it into law, then watch out because the police are going to be, so to speak, the civil rights police are going to be all over you. Meaning what? In other words, what is the kind of a thing that will come up and be a problem? Well, same-sex restrooms, hiring decisions with respect to certain- So hiring decisions. Let's say somebody who is openly transgender or openly same-sex says, I want to work in a church camp.

The church camp may say, we love you, but we don't agree with your public position, if the position has been public. And so we wouldn't hire someone like that. Now the government will come in and say, no, no, no, you have no right. We don't care what you believe. We don't care that this is a church camp. We're going to force you to hire people that are opposed to your basic values. The very idea of the camp is to teach these values. The government now is going to force those camps to hire people who disagree with their values,

or whether somebody is openly pro-abortion. These are the kinds of things that the government is going to step in on with the Equality Act. Well, and I'm glad that you mentioned abortion because there is a very strong view. This has to be sorted out in the courts, of course, that if, in fact, someone espoused a pro-abortion, pro-choice kind of position, then are just openly saying, you need to have kids at a girls' camp, reproductive freedom, et cetera. you're going to have to hire that person or not discharge that person, even though it's totally antithetical to the basic tenets of your faith. This is so far-reaching and the like, so we do need to sound the alarm.

Now, hope is not lost because, heaven forbid, if it does pass Eric, it's still going to have to face First Amendment challenge. But let's don't go there. Let's, as we say, out of the West, let's cut it off of the past. Let's urge the Senate not to, in fact, enact this statute. I'm fascinated, really, that we're here in America. And I do think the good news is that it's a wake-up call for many Americans. Many Americans who are just coasting along didn't think they needed to do much,

suddenly realize that they have a role in keeping the Republic, and that if they don't step up and do something and acquaint themselves with what's happening, we lose it. And that's exactly what's happening right now. When you say cutting it off at the past, obviously we wanted to defeat the Equality Act, but are you saying that it couldn't go into effect because people would challenge it in the courts immediately? No, it can go into effect. And it will be a long time.

And we don't know how long that's going to be before the Supreme Court of the United States actually then faces a real case where the Equality Act has been imposed, taking away people's freedom. So it's going to be, if it's going to be, if it's going to be, if it's going to be, if it is passed, it's going to be enforced under federal law, including by individuals going into court, filing their own individual lawsuits against churches and other religious organizations. I see church camps as being, they're just gone. It's just a stunning thing. It's a stunning thing, and it's one of the reasons I'm just thrilled that you're out there.

I'm thrilled you wrote this book. Folks, the book is called Religious Liberty and Crisis, Exercising Your Faith in an Age of Uncertainer, and we do have to exercise our faith. It's not enough simply to have it in our heads. We're told in the Constitution, we can have a free exercise. So folks, exercise your faith as boldly as possible. It is your right.

Ken Starr, a joy to have you. Congratulations on the book. And thank you for your time. Oh, thank you, Eric. It's a great privilege and blessing to be with you. Thank you. Hey, Alvin. Yes.

Salem now.com. there are a plethora or is there is a plethora. Actually, I don't know. We're going to have to look that up. Is plethora plural or singular? Anyway, there's a whole bunch of movies at salem now.com. The one that we're promoting now is called church people. Why are we promoting it?

Because it's an Easter story and it is starring a whole raft of Baldwin's, not quite a plethora, but a whole raft of Baldwin's. You've got Billy Baldwin, our buddy Stephen Baldwin, and Billy's wife, China Phillips Baldwin, who was on this program last Monday, giving her Miracle Monday story. By the way, she's going to be on TBN. We're going to air that on TBN, and then we're going to put it on YouTube so everyone can watch it in case you miss the TBN program. But, Alvin, I've got to say that I've been thinking about movies, movie ideas of my own.

I don't know. Do you have a movie idea you want to share? Now, I just want to be clear. If you go to SalemNow.com and use the code Eric, you should get a discount. But the movie I'm going to talk about right now is just a theoretical movie. Yeah. I'm just thinking of writing plethora, the movie. Plethora the movie.

No kidding. I came up with a movie idea. People say, hey, Eric, what did you do on Easter? Well, I went down to New Jersey to hang out with Suzanne's family. And Suzanne's brother, Tommy and I went into the basement to kind of, you know, there's just a lot of stuff that needs to be gone through. And we're in the basement. And I look up and Tommy, my brother-in-law, says,

hey, look, you see this crawl space here? At the end of that crawl space, look, there's a hammer because I was looking for a hammer. And I thought, I don't really want to crawl into the crawl space to go get the hammer. I'm just going to leave the hammer in there. And then I thought about the idea of crawl spaces in general. And I thought, wouldn't that be a great title for a movie? crawl space. Wow. Okay. Because it evokes a lot of stuff that you don't want to invoke. What's in the crawl space? Would you go into the crawl space? I mean, just the term crawl space to me,

it just makes me squirm. Am I alone in that? No, no, you're not. And I might go to IMDB.com and see if they actually do have a crawl space movie. It's a great horror title, obviously. That's what I'm saying. It's like it's one of those titles, crawl space. You know, crawl space. Crawl Space, the movie. It's on a double bill with plethora, the movie. Actually, no, I think of movies. Like, you think what could be a title for movie? Like, what's a dumb movie?

How about Car Wash? Do you remember that in the 70s? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Car Wash. Yeah. It was an entire movie titled Car Wash about a Car Wash. So I think Crawl Space would be a great title. By the way, use cars is a very funny movie. If you've never seen News Cars.

But that's two words. Car Wash. and crawl space are really, I think those are, that's one word. My brother came up with an idea for a movie. He said, traffic jam. That's a great idea for a movie. Like, you're driving along and there's a traffic jam. This is kind of a 70s idea.

And suddenly the traffic comes to a stop and people get out of their cars. They start talking. Relationships form. Yes. You picture it? Yeah, I'm picturing it. I'm picturing it. Anyway.

Okay. I'm glad. I just looked up crawl space and there's several. small feature. It's called a short feature. There's several short features called underneath crawl space. There are movies called Carl Space. Idle Crawl Space. Anyway, I just thought it was a great idea. A musical, maybe a musical. I'm going to make this movie. It's going to be like I am John Malkovich or whatever that title was, being John Malcovic. It's going to be kind of like that. Like you go into the crawl space and you know, you come out in the Neolithic era.

By the way, we, speaking of double features, we have another Ken coming up in our two. I was just going to say hour two can fish as you've never heard him or seen him before can fish in hour two uh tomorrow we have our friend who do we have on tomorrow um Naomi wolf Naomi wolf tomorrow folks don't want to miss that one uh we're at time don't forget to go to my pillow dot com use the code Eric and if you want to get most of my books they're available at my store.com tremendous prices if you use the code Eric will be back for hour two with Ken Fish. Stick around.