The Eric Metaxas Show - Laurence Leamer (Encore)

Episode Date: November 7, 2021

Laurence Leamer takes an in-depth look at the life of a controversial author, focusing on famous and infamous lady friends in his new biography, "Capote's Women." (Encore Presentation)

Eric Mettaxas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. Have you had enough of politics? I have. I've had enough of a lot of things. But one thing I haven't had enough of is Truman Capote. I love his writing. His life was extraordinary, not necessarily in a good way.

I just discovered that there's a new book out called Capote's. women. It is by Lawrence Leamer. The subtitle is A True Story of Love Betrayal and a Swan Song for An Era. It's a beautiful book, and I'm looking forward to talking about it with its author. Lawrence Leamer, welcome to the program. Eric, thanks so much for having me. Well, it's a joy. I have written three pretty long biographies myself, and I appreciate the genre. And I think that there's something you can do in a biography that you can't do in any other book. You can bring a period of time alive.

It's an extraordinary thing. The time in which Truman Capote lived the 60s in New York, we can't even begin to really imagine what world he lived in. But actually, you've begun and you've put it in a book. You've written many books on many other fabulous people, most of them taller than Truman Capote. which is saying nothing. You've written about the Kennedys. You've written about Johnny Carson. What led you, I know you were a journalist, what led you, before we get into this specific book, into writing these kinds of books about these celebrated figures? Look, alas, I only have one life to lead. In writing these books, I enter other people's lives.

But they've got to be somebody fascinating. They've got to be people who live at the edge. You take chances. That's what I want. Whether it's Johnny. Carson or whether it's, you know, the Kennedys or the JFK of that generation or whoever, or Donald Trump for that matter, people live at the edge. People who live at the edge. I don't know if I live at the edge. Take chances. I know what you mean.

When did your book on Carson, Johnny Carson, come out? early in when he was in Los Angeles. And that was an interesting one because dirty little secret. Every author answers the phone in the first ring because you're sitting there desperately wanting to talk somebody, right? So I grabbed my arm. I don't have the world to know that. Well, I got had Johnny Carson's home phone number. And I had to talk to me at the right time.

When I'm in the bad, when I'm in the wrong mood, my mother would hang up at me. But when I'm in the right mood, I can talk to anybody. I was in the right room on a Friday evening. I knew he had to talk, had to go to the butler, had to go through the person to answer the phone. It rang in the first ring, and there was Johnny Carson by himself on a Friday evening, desperate to talk to somebody. See, now that is crazy.

This is what year roughly we're talking about, the mid-80s? Yeah, yeah. Okay, it's hard for anyone to believe that you could just call up Johnny Carson. Was he expecting your phone call? Did he know that you were writing about it? Are you kidding? Are you kidding? He knew the stuff I knew. I didn't even do his ex-wives. He beat his wives. So he knew I knew a lot of things you want to have out there. What did he beat them at? Tennis, you're talking about? Joanne Carson, she showed me the divorce papers, and she included having her chin redone.

He must have had some serve. Listen, the guy's fantastic on television. Nobody is as brilliant as he was. Nobody do the American psyche better. To just have a little edge to it, but not to go too far. Nobody will ever last as long as he did for that one hour. But outside of that, he was a miserable person. So let's remember him for that hour. So when he was on the air, he did not beat his wives. Only during intermission. You know, I've never heard that Johnny Carson, whom I revere, could be like that.

And it's really dismaying. I didn't expect to go there with you. But since you wrote the book about him, you've also written about Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan. You've written a number of books about the Kennedys. You wrote a book about Arnold Schwarzenegger. And now this book about Truman Capote and the women, he had these relationships with not sexual, but society women, whom he betrayed famously, infamously. So I want to get into that with you.

But before we continue, you've managed to make a living. writing these books. And as somebody who's written biographies and other books, it really does have a lot to do with whom we chooses our subjects, because you can find somebody very obscure and nobody's interested, even if they have a fascinating life, it's a tougher sell. But when you pick somebody like a Schwarzenegger or a Reagan or a Kennedy, it makes it a little bit easier, at least to sell it to the publisher. Am I right? No, listen, I've written those books, too. I've written book called The Price of Justice about these two Pittsburgh lawyers, and there's struggle against Don Blankov shipped a big cool, Magel and Mogul got great reviews, but it didn't

sell, it's if I had somebody's celebrity's name slapped on the cover. Right. Well, let's get to this book because I got some American society. I know, of course it is. It's sinful mankind. It's not just America, but I know what you mean. This book, Capote's women, there are not many heterosexual, conservative Christian men like me, who are fascinated with Truman Capote and his writing and his women. So you've hit the jackpot here. I can't wait to find out more. For people who know nothing about Capote, let's just go backwards. And if you don't mind, help my audience understand who he was, how he came to be the Truman Capote that we saw rubbing his eyes on the Merv Griffin show.

Well, he was born in Monroeville, Alabama, a little tiny town. His parents got divorced. His mother would leave him in a hotel in New Orleans, locked the door and go out with other men. And he was just terrified of that. And his whole life had feared being isolated alone. He came to New York. His mother came to New York and married a wealthy guy who had some money. And he hardly graduated from high school.

He was totally self-educated. At the age of 23, he wrote, he published his first novel. It was an amazing story. And it rose up, we all know in Cold Blood, it invented the whole true crime drama. We all know that. That will live forever. Before we go that far into his career,

just to go backwards for a moment, when those of us who are familiar with Harper Lee's famous novel to Kill a Mockingbird, know that the same thing. sort of odd nick boy was based on uh harper lee's childhood friend truman capote isn't that the case yes yes and imagine what it was like to be gay in those years i mean i had a friend who was an officer in the navy in world war two in the pacific his job was to find groups of gays and throw them in prison that's what it was like so that gay that he that he was so outwardly gay was a very dangerous thing to

mean, it was illegal, illegal. Well, I mean, it gets complicated because Truman Capote is such a rare case. He was not one of these people who could fly under the radar particularly well. He seemed to be his whole personality almost seemed to be calculated to provoke. You got that impression from him that he sort of enjoyed. He got some kind of frisson of enjoyment out of provoked. invoking people. But he was a genius.

His first book, when he was 23, his most famous book, was, you're going to help me. Other times, other places, or in cold blood, you mean? No, no, no, no. But before that, when he wrote, Oh, my gosh, it's a, breakfast to Tiffany's.

Wasn't that about one of the, but that was one of the first ones and the glass harp? I mean, he was early on clearly a literary genius. I mean, I was in awe when I first read his stuff, not to maybe 15 years ago. I was really in awe of his ability as a writer. But what I think you explore here, or at least I want to get into it, is that sometimes somebody's talent can harm them. Sometimes somebody's talent is almost bigger than they are or it's bigger than they have the character to deal with.

And his talent carried him really quickly into some very, very high society and ultimately into some trouble. So we're going to get to that. Folks, the book is Capote's Women. Do not go away. The author is Lawrence Leamer, L-E-A-M-E-R. We'll be right back. Hey, folks. My friend Mike Lindell, the inventor and CEO,

of MyPillow wants to give back to our listeners. That's you. You can get great discounts on all MyPillow products if you go to MyPillow.com right now and click on the radio listener specials. Get deep discounts on MyPillow's mattress toppers, wow, towels and so much more. For example, Mike's offering a buy one, get one free offer on Giza sheets. All MyPillow products come with a 60-day money-back guarantee and a 10-year warranty. Go to MyPillow.com, click on the radio listener specials for the Buy One Get One-Free offer on Giza sheets. promo code Eric. Have I ever mentioned that?

Eric is the promo code or call 1-800-978-3057. That's 1-800-978-3057. 1-800-30-37. Use promo code Eric. And folks, we joke around a lot, but Albin and I rave about the mattress toppers. I tell everyone I know, check it out. Hey there, folks.

We're talking with the author, Lawrence Leamer, about his brand. new book, Capote's Women, of course, referring to Truman Capote. Lawrence, for those who don't know this story, what is the background of Capote's women?

In other words, we know that he has this outrageous talent. It carries him rather quickly to New York City where he really falls in with this crowd, but it's usually very wealthy society women, babe,

Paley and others. How did that happen for him? How did he find himself in those circles? Well, this genius and this incredibly ambitious man, everything is material, right? Whatever he sees and does, he's going to use one way or the other. In 1958, he's off on island up Greece in Greece, and he decides he wants to write a book called Answered Prayers, based on the axiom that. that answered prayers are, there's more unhappiness over answered prayers and unanswered prayers.

And it would be the life of these seven incredibly wealthy women that were his friends, these beautiful, stylish women. So these are the women that he was already friends with in the 50s. In other words, he comes to New York, he takes society by storm, and he manages to befriend and get into the confidence of seven very wealthy, very beautiful women, already by that time, and he makes this decision to write a book about them as early as 58. Right. And with a style that is lost from the world, okay? They're obsessed with style, a dress.

And when they went out, they're always perfection. When they walked into the colony at one of these other restaurants, everybody turned. And they maintained that thing for years. It's one thing to be beautiful when you're 20. It's not so easy when you're 50, and these women did that. So what are the other names of some of these famous women? I mentioned Babe Paley married to the man behind CBS. Who else?

CZ Guest, who was a Boston aristocrat, Lee Radswell, Gloria Guinness. Lee Radswell, remind us now, how is she related to Jackie Kennedy? Lee Razzuel was Jackie Kennedy's younger sister. Okay. And as Truman learned when he had lunch with it for the first time in 62, so she was a little bit later, friend. She was insanely jealous of her sister. She felt her life was a failure because of Jackie. Everything in her life was about Jackie and being diminished because Jackie was the queen.

It's fascinating. There's so much that's fascinating. It's fascinating that Capote managed to wheedle his way. into these women's confidences, isn't it? The idea that somebody like Lee Razzwell would rather quickly volunteer what you would think would be very private information. Yeah, but remember, at that level, a lot of these men married to these women,

they wanted this trophy. The term wasn't trophy wife, but that's what they wanted. They wanted this beautiful woman on their arm to show how rich and powerful where they were. But they weren't interested in them. They didn't want to listen to them, okay? They didn't want to spend real time with them. Truman was gay, but he was fascinated by these women.

He absolutely fascinated by them. So Best Truman was just a beard? Oh, we're talking about Truman Capote. Forgive me. Okay, so Truman Capote, this is almost like a funny cliche, right? That you've got this successful manly husband, and he just wants arm candy. He couldn't care less what's in your mind.

And so you find this gay confidant who knows everything that interesting. to you and talks to you about them. And so Capote made almost a career of spending time with them. I mean, we all want to know what was he doing because, I mean, it has to be said, he didn't write. He wrote almost nothing. In other words, he has these initial successes with these brilliant novellas, breakfast at Tiffany's and so on and so forth. And then he talks about the book he's going to write, answered prayers, and he never writes it, but he talks about it forever. It seems that he spends his days lunching with the ladies who lunch. No, and his great creative endeavor is to pretend to be writing this book.

He didn't write it. It didn't exist. Imagine what that likes, like day after day. He's lying in bed. The phones are coming in the morning. And he's saying how he's writing this book and he's just leaving through movie magazines. That's the way his life was. Success at that level is often so destructive.

Celebrity. You don't know why do people like me? Why are they there? And you feel such pressure to go on and do something bigger and often is impossible. Well, Ralph Ellison had that problem after Invisible Man. You see it over and over where people don't know what to do or where to go. Did you ever meet Truman Capote? I know he died in the mid-80s.

No, but I knew, I very well knew Joanne Carson, who was, Truman died in her arms. I knew that story very well. So one of Johnny Carson's wives, he had several wives named Joanne, did he not? Four wives, yeah. But how many of them were named Joanne? Joanne, Jody, Joanna. Oh, so is the Joanna and a, okay. Well, in any event, so one of the women that Capote,

squired around was Johnny Carson's ex-wife. Was this in California or was this in New York? They met in New York when they were both living at the UN Plaza, which was the building to live in those years. And then Johnny went out to California. And this is a total aside, but it fascinates me. He had these wonderful guests in New York on his show. And if I showed you the list of those guests today, you know who 90% of them are.

But he knew that celebrity was taking over America. or taking over the world. And he thought he better head out to California. That's what the celebrities are. Now these people are on the show, two years later, you'd have no idea who they are. That's what's happened.

But that's what he went out there. And after Joanne divorced Johnny, she went out to live too. And Truman would come out and stay with her very often. So, yeah, do you want to interview McGeorge Bundy or, I don't know, Dom Deloese? I'd actually prefer Dom Deloise myself.

But let me just ask you, What year was it that Carson goes out? It had to be around 68 or something. I don't remember. I don't remember. That's about right. Because I actually remember when he made the move. I was a little kid.

And we've never forgiven him. But so he leaves. His wife remains behind in New York and falls into the clutches of Truman Capote. No, they get a divorce. She, she cheats, he cheats on her and she ends up cheating on him and he finds out, and that's, that's, that's the divorce. And she goes out to California. And she's obsessed with Johnny Carson. She's obsessed with two things, Johnny Carson and Truman.

Wait a minute. Even though she divorced Johnny Carson, she's still obsessed with him. Yeah. And she was a key source on my book. She couldn't stop talking about him. And Truman dies in her arms. And she says, first of all, she says that the manuscript, the famous manuscript to answer prayers, exists. But it's in a lockbox somewhere.

We don't know where it's stored somewhere in a box. And she has the key, but she doesn't know where it is. And she totally made that up. The manuscript didn't exist. Well, now, I have to interrupt you because as far as I know, and again, if any of my audience is still tracking, you have this genius Truman Capote, extremely gay, flamboyant. He becomes the darling of New York society women. He puts on this black and white ball, the event of events, 1965.

And he keeps talking about writing this book called Answered Prayers. By that time, he's super famous because of Breakfast at Tiffany's in cold blood, practically invents this new kind of journalism. Meanwhile, he's doing nothing. He's talking about answered prayers, this book. I recall Vanity Fair, maybe it was in the 80s, publishing some kind of excerpt. Somebody pulled together whatever was extant from the manuscript that he had supposedly been working on. Am I inventing that idea? I feel like I remember that happened.

No, the book was published called Answered Prayers. It was those scattered chapters pulled together. Okay, so maybe I read an excerpt before it came out or when it came out in it. And what year was that? I don't know. I'm not sure. But I'm, um, did he die around 88? I can't remember exactly.

He died in 1984. In 84. So the book came out just before that. No, the book came out after his death. It came out quite a bit later. It did. Well, then why were some? many of these women, why do they feel so betrayed? In other words, if he's already dead,

uh, did he leak some of this beforehand? No, he did it before. He did a story. People say, what happened to this? He'd gotten a big advance. He'd got it in sold the movie rights. And so, uh, he had to do something. So he published a chapter in Esquire, which is savaged these women. And what year was that? What year was that? 76. It was just brutal. Okay. So that, that must be what I'm remembering that, that, that he did. publish something, and that was all it took. It just devastated all of these women. Were there any of these women that remained friends with him? We're going to go to a break. Actually, I'll let you answer that question on the other side of the break. Folks, the book is Capote's women, very attractive

looking book, very attractive yellow for the title. We'll be right back. Hey folks, Eric Mattaxas here. Joe Biden and the Democrats have laid out the most socialist agenda our country has ever seen. Instead of following President Trump's blueprint that had the economy booming. The Dems are going to raise taxes, increase regulations, and skyrocket an already outrageous national debt. If your retirement is in traditional investments, it is in jeopardy. Americans should be diversifying their investments with gold and precious metals. Gold gives you control over your wealth and protects you from market volatility, inflation, and a weakening dollar. When investing in gold, I turn to legacy precious metals. Legacy precious metals

has over 40 years of experience in helping Americans protect their finances, and this team is prepared to patiently consider your own personal financial needs. If you're looking to invest in gold, call the good folks at Legacy Precious Metals today at 866473-6204 or visit them online at LegacyPMinvestments.com. Don't leave your retirement to chance friends. Contact Legacy, precious metals today. That's 866473-6204. Folks, I'm talking to the author Lawrence Lemur, the author of Capote's Women, a fascinating book

detailing the extraordinary and strange relationships that this, I don't know what you call him, this man-child, this genius Truman Capote had with all of these wealthy society women in the 50s and the 60s. I was asking you in 1976 when he finally allows Esquire to publish something, maybe to keep the publisher at bay who'd paid him this big advance, that all of these women knew who they were portrayed in this excerpt and they all felt betrayed. Did any of them remain friends with him? Yeah. I mean, Lee Roswell stayed friends with him and CZ Guest because he didn't send anything negative about them in the excerpt.

Uh-huh. But his life sort of fell apart after this. It's like he cashed in his chips by publishing this thing. He groomed all of these women, groomed these relationships. and then suddenly decides to betray them. Do you think, was he a deeply mean-spirited person to do something like this? It seems cruel to me to have people who are confiding in you and then to betray them publicly in this way.

I mean, he was an egomaniac, okay? He was incredibly charming, but he lived an isolated life by himself, in a real sense, he was friendless. So, yes, he's God. why not betray these women? There was friends forever, and he didn't understand why they were so upset. And I think they were right to be upset. Some of his, some of a Truman's friends said, oh, they deserve it.

They were just as rich, worthless women. I don't feel that way at all. I think it was a terrible thing to do. He died in 1984. He was somebody that you could see at Studio 54. He always seemed to be making the scene, so to speak. He seemed to cultivate his public image. probably infinitely more than he cultivated an actual personal inner life, and it seems to have destroyed him.

He was actually quite young when he died, wasn't he? He's 59. Yeah, 59. Tell us some of the stories in this book. First of all, why would you write it with the title Capote's Women? In other words, why not simply write about Truman Capote and have the stories of these women be incidental to it? what made you want to focus on the women themselves? Because he wanted to write this masterpiece.

This is going to be his masterpiece. People would forget in cold blood or breakfast at Tiffany's. This is a book that would live forever. So as an author, I'm just fascinated about somebody that has that ambition and what happens with it. And this is a guy with brilliant instincts, literary instincts.

He knew there was a great story to be told about these women. I mean, I tell it. I'm getting fabulous reviews. I don't tell it the way Truman would tell the feet been able to do it, but it's a fantastic story. There's no question about it. These women in their individual lives and what they go through and what they suffer, most of them are unhappy, despite this money. It's a total cliche that you can't buy happiness, the money doesn't buy happiness, but it's true. Well, give us an example of one of their stories, so we have some better understanding.

Well, Babe Paley married Williams, Paley, the president of CBS, that was her second husband. Her mother wanted her daughters to marry the richest men in the world, and they did. And Babe, he was just sort of mean-spirited and nasty to her. And she didn't sleep. She slept on a separate bedroom. She'd been in an automobile accident when she was 17. She lost her teeth. She got up in the morning.

teeth. She put up her makeup on it and get perfect before she'd even step out the door to let her husband see her. So she was always on display. Truman said you tried to commit suicide twice. Gloria Guinness, who was a Mexican, beautiful, beautiful woman, who was married, married, married finally to law of Guinness and one of the richest men in the world and totally dominated her. He wouldn't, when the jewels were owned by the, by the, by the Gunnest Foundation. And when they'd go out, he'd take the jewelry out of the safe. When it comes, he'd come back, she'd take him off, and they were his and put him back there. And she was, he was so disdainful for her. In the end, she probably committed suicide. But you wouldn't know, you see her, and you think, this is the woman that had everything. You look at these women,

that's what you think. And you also see what a price they paid to look the way they looked. Anorexia was occupational disease. So it is funny because this is, it's really like a fairy tale, isn't it? You want everything. You get everything. Right. It is the story of his book answered prayers that never got written. The idea that these women had it all and then some and were deeply miserable. But what a strange thing to want to write about or to write about. I mean, I guess how long was the Esquire excerpt that was published?

Was it just one chapter or did it go on? Well, the first chapter was published. didn't have the buzz because it didn't have this nasty stuff in it. Then the second chapter, it's about 10,000 words. And it changed his life forever. So did he find himself shunned by these women from 1776 on? Not only those women, but other people. These people at that level, they're very fickle.

They're fickle. They can turn on you in a second. And that's what they did. And you mind, you wonder if this is something worthy of the subject. but Edith Wharton, who's one of my favorite novelist, she told this same story in her wonderful books. Marcel Proust in his masterpiece. Also, it's about these rich lives and what happens to them.

And I live in Palm Beach, and I don't find, a lot of these people aren't very happy either, I'll tell you. I mean, the middle class, happiness resides in the middle class as far as I'm concerned. Well, that's, and that's where I plan to stay. It is kind of funny, though, how true this is if you mix with these people, I'm very obvious. But it's hard to believe if you haven't. They've got to be happy.

Folks, I've learned on the author of, Chloe. Hey, folks, you've all helped build my pillow into the amazing company it is today. Mike Lundell has an amazing offer for my listeners on his standard my pillows. You'll get a standard my pillow regularly 69.98, now only 1998. You'll also receive deep discounts on all MyPillow products such as MyPillow towels, mattress top or my slippers, and so much more. Go to MyPillow.com and click on the radio listener's square to receive Mike's standard my pillow for just 1998 or call 1-800-978-3057 and use promo code Eric.

My Pillow is made in the USA with a 10-year warranty so you know it's going to last and a 60-day money-back guarantee so you have nothing to lose. It's time to start getting the quality sleep we not only want but need. Go to MyPillow.com or call one. 1,800, 978-3057. Use promo code Eric to take advantage of Mike's special offer on his standard MyPillow. That's MyPillow.com promo code Eric or 1-800-978-3057 MyPillow.com. promo code Eric.

Folks, I'm talking to the author of Capote's Women, who published this wonderful book. Putnam. Yes, I've heard of them. It's the subtitles, The True Story of Love, Betray, and a swan song for an era. Why is that? In other words, when we think of that glamorous world, where did it go?

Why did it leave? What's your take on that, having written about it? Nobody cares about this anymore. Okay, in Palm Beach, Cafe LaRope is one of the top restaurants. My wife and I went there about three months ago. And the next table of these plump, I guess you can't use the word fat anymore. You're not allowed to use that.

Morbidly obese. You have to use a medical term. Morbidly obese. Okay. These two morbidly obese gentlemen are sitting there and their shorts and flip flops and T-shirts eating an enormous meal. At the table next to me, you're like 10 or 12 people speaking very loudly. And the manager came over and I said, what is this?

And he said, you know, we had to enter a dress code because we're losing too much business. That's the world. That kind of elegance is gone. And I admit that I didn't think it didn't think it was that important. I thought what the heck can dress. But now I miss it. I miss that. I miss that part of life. Well, there's a reason we miss it because it says something about life, doesn't it?

I mean, there's no question when I watched Turner Classic movies and you see people going everywhere. Carrie Grant was in, what's that Hitchcock film? And he goes down to the beach wearing a jacket and a tie or an ascot or something like that. There's something beautiful about it. There's something dignified about it. I think what has happened is I think that the egalitarianism of the 60s and 70s in many ways destroyed culture. That's my theory. And that people feel that being sloppy or not tending to their appearance makes them,

I'm, you know, a man of the people. When it doesn't, it actually just makes you a schlub. But it is interesting that that did happen during this time. And the culture you're writing about it in this book, it did go away. There's no question about it. You said you knew Johnny Carson's ex-wife. When did she pass away? I forget the, it was fairly recent.

I forget the year. But I did know her. reason I know that the manuscript doesn't exist is not only she lied about it when he died, and four years later she had a party that she was going to have this party for all the great stars were in the common. Nobody showed up because they didn't want to offend Johnny. And so at the end of the party, she came out of the kitchen yelling that somebody had stolen Truman's ashes, they'd stolen the final manuscript to answer his prayers and $200,000 or the jewelry. The reason I made, she knows she made this up again, is because of that, if that had been so on,

you'd call the police and she didn't call the police. You've, you've breathed some rarefied air, Lawrence Leamer, having you? I mean, the very idea that we're talking about something like this. And also to think of the vindictiveness of people, that she invites all these people to her party and they don't come because they don't want to insult Johnny. They want to get on his show. You didn't meet Johnny Carson No, no But you spoke to many people who did know him

It's hard not to be fascinated with him I've always admired him tremendously I'd never heard that he'd beat any of his wives What else can you tell us about Johnny Carson They say he was just a very extremely private person Hardly had any friends Is that at all true? Well, you know, I've talked

to his sons, talked to two of his sons. Again, I can say these things now. I couldn't say then because he gave them $100,000 a year to, maybe it was less than that. It was less than that, but he gave them him him out for Christmas dinner. They'd come every year for Christmas dinner and they'd find out if they're getting that money. It was not enough money to live an extravagant life, but it was enough money so they wouldn't go to the tabloids and tell the stories. So they talked to me off the record. And what it was like having him as a father in the high house, he would just go into a back room. He'd like to play drums. He'd be by himself, but he had very little to do with his children. That's just the way he was. He's a strange,

strange man and brilliant. And brilliant at his craft, that's for sure. I know. And the other thing he did, let me just say one other thing about him, is that he made his guests look good. He let them get the best laughs because they, he know that was the way to get the best show. The people, the, the, the, the comedians, the people that They don't do that. They always have to get the best laugh. And that's where the show does not last very long. Yes, and they themselves aren't funny.

But I've known people who knew Johnny, and it's interesting. I think he did have a happier side. I know I'm trying to think who I was talking to was talking about, you know, playing cards up at Johnny's house. Maybe it was Frank Sinatra or somebody, that kind of a group of people. But, yeah, he became intensely. private and and obviously died relatively young. I was surprised when he died. I guess it must have been, it's almost 20 years ago, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the one thing I've learned writing books, don't be jealous of anybody. Don't sit there and think that person has a better life. If I could only get that party, if I only live in that house, I'd be happy. It's just not true. It's funny you say that. I had the privilege of being friends with Dick Cavett who knew Johnny Carson. And I remember he was on, it might have been Elizabeth Taylor had just died.

So it might have been Larry King or might have been Pierce Morgan. But Cavett said that we should never envy these people, just about what you said. Right. He said Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, tremendous. tremendous alcoholics, both of them, or Burton died in his 50s of alcoholism. We forget the horrible pain, the misery of multiple marriages, divorces. It's very easy to forget those things because we just see what's on the surface. But I think it's good to be reminded, which is why I'm glad you've written your book. If you've got a few more minutes, we're going to keep you. Folks, don't go away. We're

talking to the author of Capote's women. Absolutely fascinating material. The author is Lawrence Leamer. Don't forget to go to my website, ericmetaxis.com. Sign up for our newsletter so you can get the video of this and my other interviews. Eric Mataxis.com. We'll be right back. Hey there, folks.

I'm talking to the author of Capote's Women. He's the New York Times bestselling author of The Kennedy Women, Lawrence Leemann. is my guest. You've written about so many people. You've written about Mara Lago and Donald Trump. When did that book come out? I assume that was before his presidency. No, no. It was a couple years ago. Oh, it was. What can you tell us about that? Because it's so hard as you're talking, you realize that these people have such private lives, such different lives. It's hard to know what goes on inside. Well, you know what? I tried to write an objective book about it, okay? I tried to, I don't know, I think when you write about somebody,

whatever you find good or bad, you should put down, but nobody does that anymore, okay? If you're writing about Trump, he has to be a monster or he has to be a saint, okay? There's no, there's no mid-ground in these books, okay? And I tried to, I tried to present both sides. I confess that I like Trump very much. I voted for him twice, and he won twice. A lot of people don't realize that. But the fact of the matter is that when you're living in that rarefied atmosphere, it must be tough to know that everybody's eyes on you, that people may be writing memoirs about if you have a bad day and you say something or do something. We've all done things that we regret. So it is interesting that you did write about it. What was the title

of that book about Trump? It's called Mar-a-Lago. It's just called Moralago. And why Mar-a-Lago? Why not Donald Trump? I wanted to call it the Sun King because it was his life in Palm Beach. My publisher wanted to call it Maralago. But anyway, but I just agree with you about Trump. He loves the attention. And why would he give that guys like Bob Woodward have an interview with him now after the book's, the book Woodrow before? Because he just wants the attention no matter what it is.

I remember having dinner at Maralago, sitting with a friend of mine. And he, and Trump is there for three or four hours for dinner. with this table, people coming. And at the end of the dinner, I can't even think of his name, the boxing in Pissarro, the big boxing guy. Don King, sorry.

Don King comes in dressed as Uncle Sam. And come, I'm sitting, this is the President of the United States. He's been there for four hours. We sit down and then Trump has a very short attention span. So he gets up and leaves. And Don King follows him out into the halls and says, the great man, the great president, the great president.

No, I didn't make that up. I was there to see that. I don't know what to respond to. There's just too much. It's just too rich. It's so funny. Well, Trump, I find Trump, and I think at least half the country, he finds him extremely entertaining when he gives these rallies. He's just off the cuff. It's sort of like half comedian, half truth teller.

And we've never seen anything like it, not in American life. Somebody is somebody who is able to do that. It's got a real New York flavor to it. And so he is at least Swedish, and so I'm glad that you wrote a book about him. I'd love you to come back and talk more about this book, Capote's Women, and about some of the other books you've written. I just find it all very, very fascinating. I assume the book, it's brand new.

It must be getting some good good, today. Today, today's my 25th wedding anniversary. I can't believe it. You didn't need to do that. That's such a sweet gesture and we've only just met. I did I know. That's just the kind of guy I am. I was going to say, I just had an instinct about you.

I said, I'll been get this guy. That's the kind of guy he is. It's a privilege speaking with you, Lauren's Leamer. It's spelled L-E-A-M-E-R. The book is Capote's women. Who's on the cover? Who is that? That's Babe Paley.

I thought so. Babe Paley on the cover. Well, good luck with the book, Lawrence Leamer. To be continued. Show him the cover. Show him the cover. You mean this old thing? Isn't it beautiful?

Yeah. It's beautiful. Very, very right. You must be an author. God bless you. To be continued. Wonderful conversation. I appreciate it.

Okay, thanks, sir. Thank you. You're terrific. Bye-bye. Thank you.