The Eric Metaxas Show - Mary Harrington (Continued)

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

A Discussion on Transhumanism, Feminism, and Human Nature

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. It's a nutritious smoothie of creamy, fresh yogurt, vanilla protein powder, and a mushy banana. For your mind, drink it all down. It's nummy. I wub, vanilla. Here comes Eric Metaxus. It brings us to the question or to the issue of human nature. You're daring to think somewhat.

courageously about what does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be a man? You know, things that sometimes people say, well, we're not talking about it. We don't talk about that. But you're daring to think about it, trying to be honest about it. Right. And actually bringing these themes that we've been exploring together, and they do, they do coalesce on the question of human nature. So I've talked about this, this real, this inflection point in the 1960s where, where freedom feminism won out over maternal feminism, if you like, and really how that came to be the case via the embrace of the contraceptive paradigm, if you like, the sort of biotechnologization of women's bodies

as a precondition for our existence as people. In the book, I've called it the beginning of the cyborg era, in the sense that by embracing personhood on these terms, women are effectively exceeding to a paradigm that constructs us as cyborgs. You know, I don't exist except in as much as I'm willing to technologize myself to take my reproductive role out of the picture. Talk about the Ponzi scheme, because this leads us to that, I think. Just to finish the thought about human nature, the cyborg era,

and the end of maternal feminism. I'll get to the Ponzi scheme, because that really, that's what being a mother looks like once you're in the Cyborg era. Right. But the question of human nature is difficult in this context, because if you said about imminentizing the Eschaton, which was really where we started,

trying to realize heaven on earth, the point where we arrive at the Cyborg era is the point where we start trying to technologize away our own nature. And that begins with, women. Our entry collectively into the cyborg era begins with the technologization of women's bodies, which is really about trying to realize heaven on earth by making everybody radically equal, by abolishing those inconvenient ways that women are different and seem disadvantaged in terms of market society by virtue of our different reproductive role. So really, it's about,

you know, we're using these biomedical technologies to try and realize heaven in our own bodies, read to realize heaven on earth. How strange that Mary Shelley in her book, Frankenstein, seems prophetically to be talking about these things over 200 years ago. She saw it. She saw it. Isn't that amazing? Of course, she was a relative of Mary Wollster.

Yes. It's amazing to me. Anyway. Yeah. So there are some extraordinarily prophetic women where it comes to seeing, seeing where the technological power. paradigm would lead us eventually. But yeah, so the, so here we are now, you know, we're 50 years into the cyborg paradigm,

into the cyborg age, you know, the industrialization of human bodies has proceeded a great deal further along that line, you know, where we started out with, you know, rolling out radical egalitarianism in women's bodies. I mean, it follows logically from that that we should be able to use biotech to level the playing field in any other way that we, or to flatten out injustices. embodied injustices in any other way that we see, you know, we can cut bits of ourselves or we can take a pill that fixes this or that. Or, I don't know, in theory, the potential that opens up for re-engineering ourselves is limitless.

In theory. In theory, in practice, that's not how it works, because it just isn't. And this is really, though, just to finish that thought off about human nature, I think we have a powerful illustration in the contraceptive pill of how that is not in fact true. And this is really one of the reasons. one of the causes I have for hope, Eric, is that we've had 50 years of the contraceptive pill now, and the utopians who greeted this technology, they hailed this technology and embraced this technology when it first came out, genuinely believed that it would write all of the asymmetries

between men and women in terms of how the sexes were able to enjoy sexual freedom. And that it would enable women to enjoy casual sexual contact on the same. terms as men and that they would enjoy it, which, as it turned out, was something of an assumption. And in practice, in practice, that's not how it's turned out. You know, the sexes are not, the sexes haven't just become indistinguishable in terms of how they approach intimacy. That's, that's not how it's worked out at all. If anything, my great friend Louise Perry recently wrote a book, very, very convincing book called The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, where she argues that actually the sexual revolution has mostly ended up empowering a small subset of highly sociosexual,

um, borderline sociopathic men who, who get as much sex as they like and everybody else is, everybody else is suffering in a bunch of different ways. And women, women really haven't done very well out of it because they, the, the normative female craving for intimate relationship and long term,

long term affectionate intimacy, which has not gone away over the last 50 years, no matter what the utopians imagine, is now much more difficult to fulfill because sexual access is no longer something that you can conjure with to pursue that kind of that kind of long-term committed partnership.

So on average, it's ended up, it's ended up, it has not been the great boon to women that we thought it would be. And in the way these things have played out, we can see the contours of our sex differences just as clearly as we could before the sexual revolution. We can see the normative behaviors of men and we can see the normative behaviors of women.

And really, they haven't changed a whole lot over those 50 years. And you might think, well, that's a dispiriting. That's a depressing conclusion, Mary. But I look at it and it gives me hope because it makes me think, well, okay, so now they're threatening artificial wounds or they're threatening all sorts of other deranged technologies and people are saying,

oh, what if this turns us into something which isn't human? And I think, well, no, that's, I mean, if it works, If it shakes down the way it shook down with the pill, you know, we'll probably end up creating some atrocities as a byproduct, and I'm not cool with that, to be clear. But the end point will be that we will be able to see much more clearly, once again, with the contours of our actual nature. We'll do our level best to technologize it away,

and we'll just end up being able to see once again why we are the way we are. So you're, I want to get to the Ponzi scheme, but, and you almost got there, but you are talking. I am holding that thought, trust me. Okay, but you are talking about human nature as though there is an objective reality. And there are many people who simply don't believe that, which gets us to transhumanism. I mean, there are really people who are convinced that there is no limit to what we might become. And it seems like what you're saying is they try again and again, whether it's with the pill or with the idea of an artificial womb,

They keep trying and it keeps coming back. There's, you know, it's like betting against the house. You always lose, but they keep trying. That's my expectation. They will keep trying and it's going to suck, but they're betting against the house. Yeah. I can't prove it. You know, we're going to find out the hard way.

You know, we can jump up and down and say, well, don't do this because you're just going to create monsters and then we'll stand up with human nature again. But nobody's going to listen to me. I'm just some woman who lives in a cupboard from the books. Nobody's going to pay any attention to me. So we're going to find out the hard way. But, you know, it'll be 50 years into trying to become superhumans or, you know, trying to optimize humans for 250 IQ

will realize that actually that was catastrophic in some other way that we just hadn't banked on because we weren't looking at the integrity and the totality of the human organism. Well, so what do you think it is about the nature of reality or the nature of human nature, speaking objectively, that works against these things. Why is Mary Shelley's Frankenstein prophetic? What is it about we humans?

It's funny. I was, for the longest time, I thought maybe, maybe my 10-year project should be to try and figure out a way to talk about human nature without having to go via the church fathers. Because, I mean, it seems like the most direct route is to go via the event. the church fathers. But you can't really do that because people, you can't really do that now because people just won't listen. If you, you start throwing Thomas Aquinas at people and they'll just walk out. Yeah. You know, the moment, literally, the moment you quote Thomas Aquinas,

you've lost. Even that would walk out. Right. Right. You know, and you're not even joking. So, so you have to find some of the way of getting there. Otherwise people, people are just going to So I thought, well, you know, is this a worthwhile project? And I've actually come to think, no. No, this is a stupid waste of my time. Okay. Every new year, we all spend a few days seriously thinking about what we can do to improve our lives. And usually it revolves around better health, right? Well, I want to strongly encourage you to do what I do, take responsibility for your health by taking balance of nature's whole food ingredient supplements. Seriously, they're packed with 31 varieties of fruit and vegetable ingredients from tomatoes to sweet potatoes, just about everything in

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And actually, the more interesting question is, what does it mean to open your eyes? What does it mean to be looking such that you can see it? And the more I've thought about this, the more I've thought that actually the important thing that we need to be leaning into is not trying to make an intellectual. case for something which is just right there under our noses. It's making an experiential case, perhaps even, for seeing the world through the lens of patent recognition, rather than through the lens of analytic dissecting analysis. Because it's not possible to see human nature through in an analytic frame, because if you're chopping things into ever smaller pieces and

trying to fix things into ever-neater boxes, you can't see something which is only perceptible through time and you can't see something which is perceptible as an as an integrated organism within a system and in relational terms. Well, you're, I mean, you're making some assumptions there, which I agree with, but you can understand how some people simply don't think of it that way. If you think of a human being as something, you know, a walking poem created in the image of God, something eternal or so however you do, that's different than saying you're just an aggregate of chemicals and, you know, you come and go, and that there's nothing transcendent or fixed or pointing beyond ourselves. And there are many people who have that materialist view. It's a little bit bleak,

but that those people, they don't, in other words, why would they want to think holistically? Why would they want to think in the way that you've described? Well, I'm probably not going to be able to persuade those people to think holistically. chances are that's just not going to happen. But we'll go down that road and it will end in ecocide and then whatever human civilization comes out the other side of that won't think like that anymore because by definition it will have had to not think like that in order to survive. So, I mean, it's not a very, it's not a very upbeat. You know, in the long term, in the long term it's not even slightly upbeat. No, no, no, but I mean, you've got to take the long view.

You've got to take the long view. If you take the long view, it's upbeat and every other. In every other respect, it's deeply dumerish. I accept that. We do have to get to the Ponzi scheme. Yeah, I mean, okay, so within the technological order, within the cyborg order, in which we find ourselves now. In which we find ourselves now.

There are, I mean, the incredible thing, the incredible thing, again, about human nature is that notwithstanding all the pressures on women to think of ourselves as fungible work units, to think of ourselves as indistinguishable from men, you know, as just disembodied consciousness is piloting a meat suit and driving a spreadsheet and whatever. Despite all of those pressures, there are still a great, you know, the majority of women, more women than not still want kids. You know, if that doesn't speak to the reality

and the enduring power of our nature, I don't know what does. So here we are, and, you know, more women than not still want kids. I mean, you know, let's not get into it. birth rates because that's a whole whole other can of worms. But, you know, lots of women are still having kids. And yet, this is, this is not a, this is not a world which is very welcoming to mothers with dependent infants. I mean, anecdotally, I've got a friend who works in perinatal mental health support. And she tells me that without fail, it's the mothers who believe that nothing will change for them after they have a baby, who are the most likely to experience postpartum

depression without fail, because they're not, they're not prepared for how much it does change you. they're not prepared for how utterly it pulls apart the liberal relation you have to reality, this idea that you can be a free, I mean, that it's good to be free and unencumbered and an atomized subject. And the experience of caring for a child and the experience of being needed so fundamentally by something so dependent and whom you would give your life for in almost all cases is so radically at odds with that paradigm that it just melts your brain. and those women who are least prepared for it are the ones who struggle the hardest. This is just consistently the case.

So here you are. You know, despite all of the transhumanist urges to become the homunculus piloting a meat suit, here you are with this dependent infant and you've got to try and square that circle. And a lot of women square that circle by saying, well, either through economic pressure or through whatever other thought processes

they go through saying, fine, well, you know, I've got to go back to work. Either because they want to, because they love their job, because they have to, because otherwise the house is going to get repossessed, one way or another, you know, most women end up, at which point somebody has still got to look after the baby, because the nature of a baby has not changed any more than our nature as women has changed. You know, you can't just leave, can't just leave an eight-month-old baby

to offend for itself in the house all day. You know, somebody's got to look after it. Who's that going to be? Inevitably, it ends up being other women. So what you end up with in practice, in order to emancipate women from the, the basic givens of motherhood and the basic, you know, the, the ex, the needs of a dependent child are that you simply outsource the caring, the caring aspect of the work that

you're doing to somebody else. To another woman. To another woman. Always. And it's, and it is almost without, almost without fail another woman. Yeah. And so, and it's used, you know, but more often than not, you know, it'll be, it'll be someone poorer or it'll be, you know, a racial minority or it'll be, you know, some other woman who's in a less fortunate, and then she's got to figure out what to do with her kid. Has anyone besides you ever pointed this out? Because when I read this, actually, yes, there's a Nancy Fraser, who is a very much more left-wing thinker than I am. She and she and two others whose names escape me right now wrote a book called Feminism for the 99%, which is

for the 99th. And she points out that the Cheryl Sandbergs of this world are eight. able to lean in because actually what they're doing is leaning on. All of those other women all the way down the Ponzi scheme who are doing the work. Right. So it's women taking advantage of other women without saying so or pretending not to be doing that. No? I mean, to be clear, to be clear, I'm not going to throw brickbats at any, any woman for the choices that she has to make. Because nine times out of ten, you'll find that women are acutely ambivalves. You'll find that women are acutely ambivalent about the choice. You know, most

mothers with little babies in childcare feel very conflicted about it. And it's very difficult to figure out what to do in the world as it is without feeling as though somebody is pointing a finger at you and saying you're doing it wrong. And I don't want to be, I don't want to be one

of those women who's saying, hey, you're doing it wrong. Because I mean, if you stay home with your kids, somebody's going to point the finger at you and say, you know, you're letting the side down or you're just lazing around or You're just wrong in some other way. Yeah. A woman's place is not in the home.

A woman's place is in the wrong. And, you know, I don't want to join that chorus, but I think there are structural... Well, you're doing the opposite of joining that chorus. I think you're giving hope to the women who find themselves maybe wanting to stay home. You are saying to them, yes, that's not a crazy idea. I don't think it is a crazy idea. But what I should also say to that is that... it's a luxury now to be able to stay home.

You know, the world, the world as it is now, makes stay-at-home moms a luxury good. It perhaps wasn't the case when I was a kid. I mean, I had a fairly average middle-class upbringing and we were able to raise a family on one income. That's almost never the case now unless you're incredibly well off. And so the reality is for most families that both parents have to work to some degree or another.

and in that context, again, I'm very hesitant to point the finger at, to point the finger at mothers and say you're doing it wrong. But what I, anytime a woman in her early 20s asks me, you know, how do you think I should, how do you think I should plan ahead? Because I really want to be a mum. Yeah. I say, well, okay, so you should probably be looking for a line of work professionally, which is maximally portable and which you can do at least to some extent from home.

You know, don't look for a job which keeps you love for. for long hours necessarily out of the home. Look for something you can do from home. Look for something you can do flexibly. You can scale up or scale down depending on the needs of your family. And that way, chances are you'll be able to exist in public. You'll be able to contribute to the household expenses. And you also won't miss your children growing up.

So, you know, those are something. I mean, the woman I know who's maximally nailed work-life balance is actually my hairdresser. She works out of her garage. She's got a perfect, perfectly sized miniature studio in her garage. You know, even with like the little Biscoff biscuits and the capitino machine, it's just perfect. And she's a great hairdresser and it's all there. And she works around, she works, she has two lovely daughters. She works around school hours.

Her mum lives nearby. Her husband also works from home. She's nailed it. She contributes to the household. You know, they're both equal, economically, they're both active. but what they've done in a very 21st century way is recreate the productive household from before the industrial era.

That's actually... And that, that I think, is absolutely crucial. And, you know, of course there are going to be... There are some lines of work where you can't do that. But anytime anyone asks me, I say, that's the holy grail. If you can recreate the productive household, where both parents are doing some kind of work in conjunction with child caring,

in a way which allows at least a bit of flexibility, then you have a shot. at a family life as well as being as well as kids we um we only have a few minutes left i wanted to touch a little bit more on transhumanism or maybe you can just say some things about AI we were talking earlier and you had some thoughts but i'll leave it up to you i don't know i you know you know you get lots of hype in the press about how you know we're going to end up with some kind of super intelligent computer i have to say just bluntly i think AI is mostly nonsense in other It's this idea that, you know, first of all, it's artificial intelligence, which is to say it's

artificial. It's just computing on another level. Right. And human beings, you know. It's a very fancy order, correct. So you're putting money away, saving for the future, for retirement, for your family. You're doing what you're supposed to do, right? Well, what if I told you that your 401k, IRA, and other investments are probably paying for

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Get your free customized impact report now at InspireAdvisors.com slash Eric. And together, let's show Wall Street what investing with biblical principles can do. Inspire Advisors. Biblically responsible investing, visit InspireAdvisors.com slash Eric. That's inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. Hey, folks, listeners to my show know I'm passionate about the work of Christian Solidarity International because they protect and free those who are being persecuted and enslaved for their faith. Thanks to you to date, CSI has freed more than 100,000 people from slavery in Sudan, but the work is not done yet.

It's estimated that there are still tens of thousands more still in. bondage and CSI is preparing right now for their final slave liberation of this year. I'm hoping you'll join me and help them liberate another 300 women and children. Your gift of just $250 will free a woman in Sudan who has been enslaved for years and provide her with food and other supplies necessary to start her new life. Call 888-2533522. 888-253-3522 Christian Solidarity International, freeing and healing captives in Jesus' name. go to metaxis talk.com, metaxistock.com, click on the Christian Solidarity banner, metaxisotachstalk.com

or 888-2533522. God bless you. I'm not creating machines that can evolve consciousness, but people act as though, because they don't believe in human nature, they seem to think that anything can happen and machines can get so smart that they can have consciousness and supplant us, which is a little silly. No, no, that's just silly, which is not to say it won't have transformative effects, indeed is already having transformative effects. I mean, there are some corners of, for example, in business research, in business sector research, where people who are adept with data scientists who are good with AI can do in days

what a researcher might previously have taken weeks to do, because they just know how to get the AI to do the basic work for them. But then what you then need is the human input at the end to do the sense checking. And I think that serves as a template for both where the threat lies with AI, which is to say it's not going to turn us all into paperclips and take over the world. But what it will do is displace a lot of living, living, breathing human beings with families who depend on them from lines of work that they've been engaged in possibly for decades. And at a point where they may or may not be able to reskill.

because it's just able to do certain very limited types of pattern recognition quicker and more effectively than a human could. So there is a real threat there, much the same way as automated checkout machines replace cashiers up to a point, but then you still need. And so then what you get instead of the people doing either putting packets through a scanner or, you know, counting ships or whatever you happen to be doing, You end up with people whose job it is to debug. So you've got the sense checker at the end who's going through the report and saying, well, does this actually make sense? Does this stack up? You know, I need to check the database and make sure the robot hasn't done something idiotic. And, you know, in the same way in the supermarket is you've got the one person who's replaced 10 cashiers whose job it is to press the button when invariably the machine says unexpected item in bagging area or some other stupid thing.

driving out of really crazy. So the human input is maybe reduced, but it's not non-existent, and it's new kinds of input, which is in the form of sense checking and debugging. And I think this is something which I've reflected on as a writer a great deal, because there's a lot of kinds of writing

which are rendered obsolete by AI. You know, the kind of tedious commercial copywriting grunt work, which I was rubbish at for years and years and years, is increasingly obsolete because you really can just get robots to do it. And, you know, let's face it, a lot of it will probably be better for that. Or at least it's not going to be any worse.

But there are also kinds of writing and kinds of, yeah, there's kinds of reading and writing that the robot self-evidently can't do because they're just going to regurgitate garbage. And that's very much more like a kind of sense-checking. and a kind of sense making. And one of the phenomena, really I think, you know,

what figures such as you, Eric, do, is to aggregate streams of information and the thoughts and reflections and commentaries that go on, to try and make sense of this very bewildering world that we live in now, and to distill that into a form which is then welcomed

by an audience of people who will say, well, thank God, somebody's, done that for me because I don't have time to do this myself and yet I need to know I need to understand this so then maybe I will continue to have a job I mean I don't think I'm Eric come on in conclusion in conclusion no no no the robot is not going to put you out of business Eric I think you knew that I think I did I think I did well I'm afraid we're out of time uh join me in thanking Mary

Harrington I got a number of things I want to share before we sign off for today but I I'll remind you, first of all, of our friends at the Herzog Foundation. I've talked so much on this program about how our nation's public schools have been captured by, let's say, progressive ideologues, to put it nicely. Marxist lunatics is another term you might use. Now, this doesn't mean everybody who teaches in public schools, but so many that if I could homeschool my kids or send them to a quality Christian school, I would absolutely do that. So that's why we're friends with the Herzog Foundation because they make it possible for

anybody to do this. If you go to their website, they have all kinds of free resources, folks, for you. If you're thinking about homeschooling, you're thinking about quality K-12 Christian education, you go to Herzog Foundation.com. That's Herzog Foundation. They are a tremendous resource. Take advantage of them. They're there to help. Hurtzachfoundation.com. Okay, a lot of other stuff before we sign off of the day. I want to remind you, again, of our campaign with CSI. Very important that everybody participate. This is an amazing opportunity. Everyone can participate at some level. Everyone. You could do $5 a month. This is freeing slaves. This is helping our friends. at CSI, Christian Solidarity International, freeing slaves.

It's real. It's beautiful that we get to do this. Every year we partner with them. So we're asking you to go to the website. It's metaxis talk.com. That's our radio website. Lots of other stuff there. But if you go to Metaxotococcom,

right at the top of the page, you'll see it. If you'd prefer to call, some people prefer to do that. I will give you the phone number. If you're ready, are you ready? You're ready for the phone number? You can call it today. here it is.

888-253-3522. 8-88-253-35-25-22. 8-88-253-35-22. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Kevin McCullough. Some of you, I don't know who, I just say this theoretically, some of you out there listening to this program,

you may know Kevin McCullough by another name. That name is Votesodendamus. Thank you, Chris Himes. Votes Jadamas. But today, we're just talking to Kevin. So, Kevin, here's the thing. You and I were fans of Christian Solidarity International. They're doing amazing work.

It doesn't really get more amazing than freeing slaves. If somebody says, I'm against slavery. How would I free a slave? Good luck. I have no idea how many years and the effort that CSI has put into creating the network of people who can reach out to these Falani herdsmen, to these radical Muslims who own Christian slaves. They have done that.

They are involved in this. All they need is for people listening to this program to step up and to give them whatever you can give them. Every $250 frees a slave and sets that person up in a life of freedom. This is an outrageous opportunity for us to leave. live out our faith. It's, it's just beautiful. As of today, we are only at 5% of our goal. I don't know, Kevin, how to exhort people to step up. I will give the phone number and the website is metaxis talk.com and you can see the banner. But I never know how to move people to do that because it just seems to me like such a beautiful thing. I want everyone to participate. Not

everybody can give $250 or $1,000 or whatever, but everybody can participate. You can give monthly, which is much easier if you say, well, we'll just do this every month and do it as a family or something. But, Kevin, you have for years been involved with CSI and you know the work they do. I, there are very few organizations on planet Earth that I say that I genuinely love. But CSI is one of those organizations. And the reason that I do is because they, They enter into a person's life where they are at the lowest point they can possibly be at. And when they work their miracle that Jesus allows them to work, that person comes to a brand new place in this life that they never thought they could be. So let me just tell you about A book.

A book is a woman who was taken when she was roughly six years old. She and her sister and her mom and her dad and her two brothers were all victims of a raid on their village in the Sudanese Civil War. They were harshly rounded up. Their house was burned in front of them as they were forced to march towards Sudan. The Sudan, and now we have two countries, Sudan and South Sudan. But it was all one Sudan at the time, but into the north, they were forced to march. and she witnessed her father and her brothers both be shot and killed in front of her as a six-year-old girl. She endured seeing her mother be gang raped at the hands of multiple Sudanese Arab jihadis that just took sport in it.

It wasn't anything caring or nice at all. We're just doing it for fun. And out of that, she was to take. taken to a village in the north, and then she was immediately sold from one slave master to another slave master. So she ended up kind of being ping ponged away from her sisters and her mother. And she spent the next 17 years being ritually raped, abused, physically beaten, verbally accosted, starved much of the time. There was nothing more than crumbs for most days.

If she ever spoke up to defend herself, it was more beatings, it was more lashings. When she reached the age of adulthood, she was told that in order to be a good Muslim woman, she had to go down to the little creek that was behind where the Flavmaster's house was. She was given the rusted lid of a tid can, and she was told to circumcise herself. And I'm trying to be as family-friendly as I can for those that are listening. But the idea that she had any autonomy, any sovereignty over her own decisions, any ability in her own life to speak for herself was robbed from her. And as time went by, she grew very depressed. She was raped repeatedly by not only the slave master, but the slave master's son.

And in the process became pregnant on more than one occasion. In the process of having those children, she weaned them. and then the slave master took them from her. So even the child that God had put inside of her body, she was not allowed to have. And then at one point in time, she was out retrieving water on a very hot day, and a CSI Arab retriever was there.

He spotted her. He could kind of tell by looking at her that she was a slave. He engaged in negotiations with her owner. He was able to secure her release. She was able to be liberated in a CSI liberation push. She was able to go back. to South Sudan where the first stop on the way back, they go to a recovery camp where they're given medical attention, counseling. They're allowed to remember their name. Many of their names have been

changed from their Christian name to their Muslim name. They're allowed to tell their story and write it down so they have a history of what they've been through. They're allowed to take the time needed to eat, to regain strength, to have medical things done if needed, to talk to counselors, et cetera. And then after that period of that season, and it's different for almost every slave that comes in, but after that season is kind of completed, then they're given what's called the bag of hope, and that's what the $250 provides. But it's not just a bag. It's way more than a bag, because you get a year's worth of sorghum grain.

You get a year's worth of seed to plant for the following seasons years worth of sorghum grain. And then you get everything you need to start your life, tarps, blankets, utensils to garden and cook and clean and fish with. You get a Bible that's hopefully in your language. You get blankets to keep you cool in the time when the nights get very cold. There's a whole host of things that you're given. And not the least of which is the last thing is a she goat. Now, many times that she goat can be mated with a male goat back in the village wherever you're relocated at. And guess what?

Two goats plus time makes more goats. So over time, you actually develop a little micro enterprise for that person. And at the end of this, when they're given this package, then they are helped to be transported down to wherever their home is in South Sudan. And the party just begins. The church, the village, the family members, if there are any left, if not, former slaves that live in the same area, all come together. They have, they have, it's like the prodigal son on steroids. They cannot stop rejoicing that a slave has been released and returned home. I cannot believe this.

I mean, folks, what more do you need to hear? go to metaxis talk.com, please. The phone number, you can dial it right now or write it down. 888 253 3522. 888 253 3522. Please, folks, do this. 888-2533522 or go to metaxisotalkis talk.com. God bless you. Folks, welcome back. I am talking to my friend Kevin. McCullough, we're talking about CSI. Kevin, you just told us such an amazing story. And I have to say, I just told you the first part of it. There's still more of it. There's more. Okay. Yeah.

It is so moving to me that we get to do something about this, which is why I exhort my audience. Folks, take advantage of this. Please take advantage of this. I don't know what you can give. I will say it again, anybody that can give big, like 15, thousand dollars, which would free 60 slaves. I will, you know, spend the evening with you, have dinner. We can do this any place around the country. I just can offer my time and my evenings, which have become insanely rare that I get to do this. But I will do this. It's one thing that I can do if anybody wants to give a big gift, tax deductible, $15,000. Most of us cannot afford that, but whatever you can afford, this is so beautiful. $250 does everything. So, Kevin, continue with the story. You've just got three minutes.

So, Abuk, she went through the entire process, and as she was being released and she got to the camp and she got her stuff together, she said to the staff, what about the others? And as rejoicing as she was and as happy as she was to be back in her homeland and to be headed home to see her family, she was very, very concerned about the other slaves that were still there. Now, just up until about two years ago, CSI had no way of getting a child that had been born in slavery released. But as of two years ago, we have now had a few dozen of those children located and returned to their mothers to join them in their life in the homeland of South Sudan. And so that's part of what's going on.

There's another friend of Abukes that was liberated in the same liberation group as she was. and she was actually pregnant as she was being released. And she told the CSI worker at the border camp, she said, I don't have anything held against the baby that's in my body. God gave me this baby. My slave master made me pregnant. But God gave me this baby. And he's a gift.

And I will spend my life being his good mother if God allows me to have him. These are the lives that you're stepping into. These are the women who have had. for years, prayers, secret, private prayers that they had to pray in private, asking God to liberate them, to free them, to give them their lives back. And many of them say, I didn't know if God would answer my prayer, but they have been answered and they are being answered. And before the end of the year, Eric, your listeners can take assurance of this. There is one more liberation that is just around the corner. We cannot release details on when it will happen or how it will happen or anywhere for

the safety of those involved. But there is one coming. And if you give to a Eric's show today, you will be part of that liberation. And there will be hundreds of slaves liberated. We're doing this on my show as well. And it's not nearly as impressive as yours, Eric. But last year, we came right up to the 5,000th slave human being that my listeners have helped give new lives to. And if you think about that, and if you think about how much potential every human life has to give that gift to someone as a Christmas present this year, you couldn't do a better thing. So that's why we're all in. The McCullas, we're not perfect at this, but over the last four years, we've made it our goal to liberate a slave once a month as part of our systematic giving plan as a household.

And again, we're not perfect, but for the majority of those four years, we've been able to do that every month. And it's one of the best things we've ever done. Folks, I know that everybody's in a different place, but everybody can do something. Whatever you can do, please, folks, choose. Join us in this beautiful, beautiful thing. Go to metaxis talk.com. You'll see the banner there. You click on it.

It'll walk you through everything. And right now, we're going to hour two. I guess I just want to leave the phone number with you. 888-253-3522, 888-253-3522, or the website metaxistoctalk.com. Metaxistalk. You'll see the banner. God bless you, folks. This is the right thing to do.

Jump in. God bless you.