The Eric Metaxas Show - Megan Basham

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

Megan Basham uncovers Bill Gates' latest attempts to influence the church with Marxist programs.

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. It's a nutritious smoothie of creamy, fresh yogurt, vanilla, protein powder, and a mushy banana. For your mind? Drink it all down. It's nummy. I wub, I wub, I wop, I wap, vanilla. Here comes Eric Metaxus. Hey there, folks.

Welcome. As you know, for the longest time, I've been trying to get cultural figures on this show. and my team has worked really hard to get Megan the Stallion on the show and Charlemagne the God and, you know,

and yet we have failed. But when we couldn't get Megan the stallion, I thought, can we get anybody named Megan? And then I realized, wait a minute, wait a minute. What about Megan Basham? Maybe we could get her.

And we did. And here she is. is. Megan, welcome back. You got the best, Megan. Let me just say. So I'm not a wrap, but you got the best Megan. I don't think there's any doubt that I'd rather be talking to you. Praise the Lord. Okay, listen, you as usual are, you know, tweeting up a storm saying wonderful things.

I just love following you on X. Where do we begin? What is the thing that you've been talking about lately, J29 or what? I don't know. I lose track. Tell my audience. Tell me in my audience what this is. Yeah, there's a lot of acronyms to keep track of when you are researching infiltration

of left-wingers into the church. So I'll try to keep all of the acronyms clear for your audience. But, you know, I think the last time I was here, or one of the most recent times I was here, Eric, we talked about a group called the after party. Now, that was a left-wing funded curriculum from David French and Russell Moore that was being promoted to churches and to Christian colleges within the Council for Christian Colleges and universities. So that was one kind of infiltration.

And, you know, obviously their gambit right before the 2024 election to get this curriculum into churches, to sort of sway that evangelical vote away from Trump, that didn't work. Now they have another group. And it is not targeting the church members. it's going directly after the pastors, not just any pastors either, theologically conservative pastors. So they are targeting conservative churches, conservative pastors. It's a group called J29, referencing Jeremiah 29,

worked for the good of the city you live in, except that is not what they do. So to give you a little background on this group that is targeting conservative churches with conservative pastors, they are a part of the American Values Coalition. If you're not familiar with them, they're a group of never-traveliers. Trumpers. They were launched by Knapp Nasworth, the former editor at the Christian Post,

who became a never-trumper and left and a half. So he linked up with other never-trumper's and they launched this organization, the American Values Coalition. Now, it is exclusively, again, secular left-wing funded. So each major funding donor and bundler is a group called Panorama Global. So it's got a great globalist name there. And there's a good reason for that, because they are heavily backed by Bill Gates, and they give money to things like the LGBTQ victory fund. So that's who's overseeing the donors and the funding going to this group, the American Values Coalition.

So if you hang with me here, the American Values Coalition, funded by Bill Gates, funded by Panorama Global, funded by the Hewlett Foundation, one of the major funders of pro-abortion activism in the U.S., all of these people are who is backing this group. So it decided to target these conservative pastors, we need to have a faith initiative. Naturally, to fund their faith initiative, they turn to atheists. So the major funder of this initiative of the American Values Coalition called J29 are atheists and left-wingers,

and they're targeting conservative churches and conservative pastors. They say, specifically, we want to disciple your pastors in politics in order to transform, the evangelical political imagination. Now, why do you think a lot of left-wing groups would want to fund an effort like this if its purpose was simply to promote civil discourse around politics? That's not what they do. When you look at who the coaches are, they are exclusively never-trumper's, primarily people who promote black liberation theology. Almost all of them are promoters of black liberation theology. They hold events with groups like sojourners. which, you know, for those who are not familiar, is a left-wing, ostensibly Christian magazine

that runs articles like the joy of queer Christianity. So this is who this group is. While they're claiming to be conservative and targeting conservative pastors, they are this left-wing group, and really key and interesting point here is that the board chair of the organization overseeing this initiative, American Values Coalition, is heavily funded by Bill Gates himself, in a wind solar energy company and has ties to the Biden DoD, received $1.2 million from Biden's Department of Defense. So you have very swampy people here who are involved with this. They're connected to the CIA. They're connected to Biden's DOD. And so they're now initiating this

project to come into conservative churches. And again, to disciple conservative Christian pastors. So that's what's going on. Okay. So it's called J-12. and how did you even discover this? Where is this? Where are people bumping into this? So, you know, I track a lot of these groups. And initially I found it, I think, when somebody at Christianity today kind of boosted it. So one of their editors is also a part of this and said, hey, come to this J29 event or have your pastor sign up for our three-month training cohort, you know, to be disciples in politics.

And I happened to see it and went, hang on a minute, what is this group? and around the same time, I had a conversation with a pro-life leader in Colorado. And he told me that he had had lunch with a pastor who told him he's not going to talk about abortion from the pulpit anymore. And it's because of his involvement with the group J-29. And that's when I started to look into it because I said, what kind of conservative Christian group is telling pastors that it's too divisive to talk about abortion from the pulpit? So that was really, you know, after having heard that story, that's when I started looking into them. and that's when you find out, this is not a conservative group. This is absolutely an astro-turf front group campaign.

So, you know, there's so many of these organizations out there, and you have to be so discerning as Christians to look into them and understand because I'm quite certain there's a lot of unwary pastors out there who are like, gosh, you know, I don't really love the conflict and the division and the church over politics. Maybe I should bring this program in. And so then they bring it in, and what they get is exclusively never Trumpers, who are saying that to be MAGA is to be an extremist and that they are

countering extremism. So, I mean, you have to ask, if you were trying to represent Christian thought on politics, you would certainly have to include at least a single supporter of the current president. They do not have one. Well, look, we know this stuff that's Marxist, it's secular, it is wicked. It is evil stuff. The question really, or one of the questions that I have is, How is it that ostensibly conservative pastors could fall for this? In other words, what makes you conservative? Why would somebody, I mean, what makes somebody, quote unquote, conservative? Because there's so many different issues, right?

So when I hear J29, you know, Jeremiah 29 about the, you know, to bless the city, I heard that all the time from Tim Keller, a Redeemer Presbyterian Church. And that sounds right. it sounds good. There's elements to it, but that can go wrong. And so people say, well, Tim Keller is conservative because he believes in the bodily resurrection of Jesus and the authority of scripture. So you can be conservative in that way, but then adopt horrible left-wing ideas. And so is that what you mean by conservative when you say they're trying to appeal to conservatives? Right. I mean, so I think they are trying to appeal to political,

conservatives, but they keep presenting themselves as we are theological conservatives. So as you said, these are people who are going to affirm the Nicene Creed. But then you dig down a little more into their theology and you find out they're not that either. They are neither political nor theological conservatives. So you've got a bunch of their coaches who are Democrats and who specifically promote black liberation theology. Okay, which got to say is Marxist, folks. Ladies and gentlemen, and the reason this stuff is truly diabolical, truly satanic, wicked is because it has the semblance of being good. It doesn't come out and say anything, just like critical race theory says, oh, we're against racism, right? Everybody goes, oh, yes, yes.

Well, no, no, no, no. They use that. Black liberation theology. It's basically Marxism. They do not believe in God, but they kind of cannibalize Christian ideas and Christian virtues to sell what they're selling. So it really is diabolical. It's deceptive. And you can see how many people would fall for it. Oh, we've got to go to a break. We'll be right back.

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sheets, any size, any color of the number. again, 1-800-978-3057, 1-800-3057. The promo code is Eric, or please go to mypillow.com, my pillow.com. Use the code, Eric. Welcome back, folks. We're talking to Megan Basham about a lot of important stuff. Megan, I was just saying that what we're really talking about is globalism, Marxism, atheism, but it somehow disguises itself as somehow Christian, or it redefines Christian faith in very confusing ways, which is why I think a lot of pastors and Christians can be taken in by it. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, they're not really, when you dig into some of these coaches for this group, J-29, their records are actually pretty clear. So I don't know if the assumption was that nobody's

and look at these coaches who say they are theological conservatives. But that's not true either, because you have, for example, the theologian Scott McKnight is one of their coaches, who has openly endorsed critical race theory, as you said. So, you know, he may have some conservative impulses, but you also have the endorsement of Marxist Black liberation theology, Latino liberation theology, feminist liberation theology, all of this is promoted by their coaches. And so even as they claim to be, well, you know, we're politically moderate, but we're theologically conservative. That's actually not true either if you dig deep into their records.

Okay, so let's be clear. What you're saying in part is they're liars. Yes. Just cut to the chase. I don't want to use such a technical, complicated term, but sometimes you have to do that. They're liars. They're deceptive. So you mentioned that Christianity today was promoting this.

Now, we know, sadly, that magazine has gone over to the dark side. ladies and gentlemen, if you didn't know that, you should know that. You don't want to read Christianity today. They've absolutely gone over to the dark side, which breaks my heart, but sometimes, you know, you just have to deal with the reality. But there are people pushing this. I mentioned Tim Keller earlier. I loved Tim Keller for so long, but he really went wrong on some of this stuff eventually.

I mean, I'll never forget when he said, oh, people should read everything that can get their hands-on on critical race theory. And I thought to myself, you've got to be kidding. You're telling your flock that doesn't have a lot of time, you know, to look into this the way you do, because you have the ability to read for hours and have nuanced positions on things, rather than saying, this is really bad, run from it. And so there is a lot of confusion out there. And I think there a lot of pastors who maybe they've read Tim Keller's wonderful books, a number of wonderful books. They couldn't dream that maybe he's leaning in a wrong direction here, and that so many others, of course, he's no longer with us, but so many other pastors would be fooled into thinking that

somehow this is, you know, this is a nice way to, I mean, in my book, out of the American Church, I talk about the idol of evangelism. It's like, oh, we can just do evangelism. We don't talk about this, have to talk about this nasty stuff, like murdering the unborn is actually murder, or we don't, we don't need to get into that here. We'll do that in our small groups, you know, when we all get to heaven, but not here. So that's just amazing. Now, there's something else related to this J-29 thing, I thought. I'm trying to remember. This is a curriculum. Yeah, so it's a faith initiative. It's a training program. So they provide resources, seminars, direct training with these three-month cohorts of pastors where they're going to have

ongoing meetings with the pastors, and it culminates in a visit to the border. So you can kind of see what the purpose of the group is. And again, to me, the entire thought of an outside secular left-wing funded group, having the hubris to say, we want to disciple America's conservative pastors on politics is really pretty astonishing because it's the pastor's job to be discipling the culture, not. to be disciples by the culture. And that's really what we're seeing here. And, you know, to me, the very idea of such a project was so shocking before I even got to who the players were. So, you know, when you get to the players and you find all of these Department of Defense and DHS

connections from the Biden administration and you see how they're being funded by Bill Gates and, you know, pro-abortion Cullet Foundation, all of these things are red flags. But you can see how your average pastor who's maybe not really thinking these things through is going to bring this in because they're being targeted. You take a Tim Keller, for example. Now, I don't know if these groups targeted him, but he would certainly be the sort of person that they would look to to use to sort of voice their talking points. And so they would target him. And we've seen them, these kinds of groups targeting Rick Warren and other major pastors because they want them to speak these talking points so that they trickle down into the pews and influence ordinary church members. And so that's really

why I spend so much time researching these groups because pastors are often unaware. They're busy, maybe they haven't thought this through very clearly, unfortunately, a lot lacked discernment. And so they bring these programs into their church. And it's often the people in the pews who start speaking up and saying, hey, wait a minute, what is this thing that we're bringing in? And so that to me is why this one in particular is so insidious, because in a way, the church members would never know what's happening. They would never know that their pastor is being disciples by people who are backed by atheists, the Biden administration. So I, you know, I think so many of the laity in these churches would be shocked to know that their pastors are being trained and, to use

their word, disciples by groups like this. And I think that's why you so often see the division where the people in the pews are much more conservative now, even than their pastors, because their pastors are being targeted by groups like that. And I think there's a certain also, let's say, desire to be seen as not extreme and a desire to be seen as a moderate conciliatory voice. And that's a really good way to target pastors in the midst of, you know, contentious election cycles when people are talking politics a lot. And they are perhaps having difficult conversations in their congregation and in their communities. And you have groups like this come in and literally say, hey, you don't have to disciple your people and train them and shepherd them in politics.

Let us do it for you. And then this is something that one of the coaches verbatim said, you will then have plausible. deniability if your people get upset. Whoa. Yes. So they said, you bring this curriculum in, then you will have plausible deniability if your people get upset because we're teaching that you need not be a single issue voter on abortion, but you must vote to elect candidates who will rectify America's alleged systemic racism. So that's kind of, you know, the slight of hand that these programs provide. And, you know, for example, J29's founder, Caleb Campbell, injected so much progressive politicking into his large Phoenix church that he acknowledged that he lost 80% of his members.

So 80% of his members left. Now, they use this as a story to see, look how polarized American Christianity has become over politics. Whereas I say, maybe the pastor should have learned a lesson from that when so many of his people were saying, hey, we see you going in a bad direction. And we're going to leave this church if you don't stop. And that's what they did. And, you know, Caleb Campbell is one who has said that Christian nationalism is the great threat to the United States. And it began in the Garden of Gassimony. Well, you know, he likens Christian nationalism simply to ordinary Christians exercising their right to vote to free speech, to a free association to back Donald Trump. So if you're a Donald Trump backer who is vocal about it and active about it, that makes you the extremist Christian nationalism. And that

That is why he lost 80% of his church. I'm not surprised. We are in a war, a spiritual war, a war for the culture. And you know, you know I wrote a book called Letter to the American Church. And I have to say, I, everywhere I go, people say, I gave your book to my pastor, and I haven't heard back from them. And I have said over and over and over again, folks, if you're going to a church that is on the wrong side of this stuff, you are guilty if you keep going to that church. You are guilty if you give God's money to that ministry. This is serious stuff. Lives are being destroyed. Lives are being destroyed by pastors unwilling to stand bravely, boldly on a lot of these hot button issues. And this idea that there's some safe third

way, there's not. You're a coward. Whether you are aware that you're a coward, become a coward because people are suffering when you say, well, that's not my business, or we're just going to talk about, we're just going to preach the gospel. It's preposterous. But I have to say, there are so many Christians, many listening right now, who are guilty. They are complicit because they're going to churches that are guilty of all this stuff. And they say, well, it's a nice church or whatever excuse they give. It is why things are, why we're struggling and why people are suffering and why people are suffering and we have all kinds of terrible things going on in the country right now. So it's an amazing time.

Tell me, are there other names associated with this that we would know? Are Russell Moore and David French not involved with this, but they're pushing it. They are involved. They've been coaches. So all the people involved in the after party, which was the original program I told you about targeting churches, all of them are also involved in this program. They've all been coaches, David French, Russell Moore, Curtis Chang. So these are the people who are saying, we want a disciple and train your pastors. And, you know, it's funny that you bring up pastors being unwilling to read your book because I hear the same thing from so many people. They say, I try to get my pastor to read your book. And keep in mind, most of my book is simply tracking hard records. It's not even giving you my opinion.

It's saying, here's where the funding's coming from. Here are the left-wing secular political actors who are working on your church and your pastor. And they are refusing to read that at all. They don't want to look at the receipts. They don't want to see where this money is coming from because you have the respectable establishment institutions saying, you should not read this material. You should look into what's being brought up. Well, okay. So, right. So you have, you know, Tim Keller saying, everybody should read everything and get their hands on on critical race theory. But don't read that. I mean, this is the ridiculous. We'll be right back, folks. We're talking to Megan Basham. When you see the Southern Cross for the first time. Welcome back talking to Megan Basham.

Shepherds for sale is your book, Megan. And that, that has caused a firestorm. And you just said that people are being told, like, maybe you shouldn't read it. And it's the same thing with my book where I say, show me in my book what I'm getting wrong. Is there something wrong? Because I wrote the book in not in a hostile way. I'm trying to reach out to people who are confused on this stuff and give them a biblical grounding for understanding why pastors need to be political, not making idle of politics, of course, but that these things are important. So there's my book, Letter to the American Church and the sequel, Religinalist Christianity.

There is your book, Shepherds for Sale. There is a book by John West called Stockholm Syndrome Christianity. And I say to anybody listening, folks, if your pastor does not want to read these books that I have just mentioned, I want to know how you can justify before God going to these churches. because you are then complicit in exactly the way Germans were complicit in going to churches that refused to stand against the Nazis. It is really affecting human beings. Lives are being destroyed. This is not an academic discussion. Human lives are being affected by this. And Megan, I'm not surprised that people just, they just want to demonize you. They've done it to me, obviously. I'm sure they're doing to John West with his book, Stockholm Syndrome,

Christianity. They just demonize you without actually dealing with is what she's saying true. They can't bear it. Yeah, no. And as you look at where organizations like Christianity today, which is so involved with so many of these projects, you look at who they are now holding up as reputable experts. You know, I can give you one example. They're reporting on transgenderism. You will frequently see them going to Mark Yarrhouse. Professor Mark Yardhouse at Wheaton, who is, I believe, a psychology professor as their resident expert on transgenderism. Well, he's a member of W-Path. If you're not familiar with W-Path, it is the extreme pro-transgender organization that argues for mutilating children and robbing them of their sexual function and their ability to reproduce by giving them puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and surgeries. Excuse me. So he's a professor at Wheaton. Mm-hmm. And a member of W-Path.

at the same time. Okay, so I want to be clear. Ladies and gentlemen, Wheaton, remember Wheaton? This is where we are. Wheaton, which used to be one of the great Christian colleges, in some ways the greatest, has fallen. We need to wake up and deal with the reality of today. Wheaton College has someone there teaching those kids this kind of stuff. I know this is true of other Christian colleges. We need to deal with this. And a lot of people just want to look the other way, oh, well, you know, when I was at Wheaton, well, the fact of the matter is this is really serious. This is shocking. Christianity today is pushing this kind of stuff. And, you know, I have to bring it up again because we just mentioned it.

But in John West's book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, he talks about, of course, Francis Collins. You have Francis Collins the other day or a few weeks ago did something on YouTube with NT Wright. So here's an example of, you know, N.T. Right. People think, well, he's a conservative Christian. Well, theologically conservative, but he doesn't seem to see the problem in allying himself with Francis Collins. And of course, Tim Keller allied himself with Francis Collins. These are very confusing times. And I would say, you know, it's interesting that you bring up NT. Right, because if you look at his trajectory, you can see how, you know, maintaining that I'm a theological conservative, but I'm moderate or I'm third way on politics, how that's infected him, to the point that he just recently came out with a video where he suggested that early term abortion is acceptable. Now, that is not a Christian position in any sense, you know, whether from scripture or church history, never have we said that it's okay to kill a baby. in the womb provided that, you know, you're in the early term of the gestation. So when I look at someone like NT Wright, I go, that desire to be seen as not an extremist or not on the far right has

actually taken him in a direction that is away from scripture and away from doctrinal soundness. And that's what we see him doing on abortion. So I would encourage everybody, if you, if you just go, for example, to X and put NT, right abortion, those videos will come up and they will really surprise you. And so you see the influence of someone like Francis Collins on. on people like Tim Keller, who also started to moderate his language. I don't think he moderated his position, but he certainly moderated his language on abortion towards the end of his life and made some strange posts about you didn't necessarily need to vote to end abortion because you wouldn't vote to end idolatry in the U.S., which was kind of a really strange analogy. And the message that I continue to

beat and why I continue to come here is to say, yes, some of this is organic fear of man. We expect that from people who get into high positions. They want to hang on to those high. positions they want to be thought well of. But plenty of it is orchestrated and strategize, and it's coming not just from secular left-wing foundations, but if you look at this J-29 group and its connections to the Department of Defense, it has a board chair that has received millions of dollars from the Biden-D that is closely connected to Bill Gates. These are deep state actors, and they're targeting churches, and that's the bottom line. So, you know, I continue to go, yes, all of these issues are important, but really important for you as a church member to know,

here's how these groups want to get at you and transform your thinking when it comes to politics and theology. It's absolutely horrifying. In Letter to the American Church and in my Bonhofer book, I deal with the fact how the Nazis who were, you know, satanic atheists infiltrated the church. They're not stupid. They said, we've got to work in the church.

We don't want to out ourselves as satanic. atheist. So we'll just use whatever language we need to do to silence enough pastors so that we can do what we want to do. Dramatically similar. We'll be right back. We're talking to Megan Basham. I am not talking to Megan the Stallion, although my team has tried, or Charlemagne the God. But we are talking to Megan Basham. So Megan, thank you for pinch hitting. This is we couldn't get the other, Megan. Thank you. It's always good to be here, Eric. Well, listen, you do so much serious work. I got to joke around like an idiot. Talk about the ERLC, because you've been posting about that on X.

Yeah, so that's, you know, probably the other major evangelical story I've been tracking lately, and that is because you saw a strong effort from conservatives within the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. So if you're talking, trying to move the vote of evangelicals, they're going to give you the best bang for your book, which is why they are so often targeted. Well, you know, the ERLC has become, it's the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. It's the lobbying arm. So the group that goes to Washington to try to get them to pass policy ostensibly. And a lot of people were pushing to end this entity to abolish it because essentially it has become a captured institution. What you see from the ERLC is, you know,

very little action on things like transgenderism, drag show bills, bills banning transgender procedures on children. You know, I talked to a number of legislators who were involved in this legislation in Tennessee that just went before Scotus and one to say we have a right to ban as a state mutilating our children in the name of transgender ideology. And, you know, shockingly, even though the ERLC is in Tennessee, right there in Nashville, steps from the Capitol House. I talked to, you know, all three members of the Tennessee legislature who sponsored that bill. And they said, we got no help from the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission.

But at the same time, they were active in backing Tennessee's proposed gun control bill that failed. And so that is why you have seen so much of this contention around the ERLC, because in so many ways, they are actually working against the interests of what, you know, your average Southern Baptist in the Pew wants to see. And so, you know, I spoke to probably half a dozen senators, Capitol Hill staffers, and all of them told me, you know, this entity is no help to us as conservative lawmakers. We thought they were working for the other side. I actually had some people tell me that, that they were actually shocked to hear. Well, who's to say they're not working for the other side? I mean, they were headed up by Russell Moore. Right. And that legacy of Russell Moore since he left has continued. So, you know, they have continued to be involved with some of these left-wing foundations that I mentioned in the book and that I've talked about with you, a democracy fund, which is a pro-abortion foundation launched by Pierre Omidyar, the left-wing Buddhist founder of eBay. So you look at these groups and again and again, you go, why is the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission producing reports on evangelicals and politics, funded by someone like Pierre Omidyar and the Democracy Fund. Why are they taking money from

Mark Zuckerberg on some sort of black crime study that they were doing? And why are there people who are bringing this stuff in, then going to work for the Biden administration as soon as they leave the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission? So again and again, what you see is people who are claiming to be conservative. And when you scratch the surface, you see a lot of unconservative ties and you see a lot of swampy left-wing foundations and DC brokers seizing these institutions for their own purpose. And so you have to be constantly vigilant to look at what's coming in and who is influencing the people who are supposed to be representing us in the public square. Well, it's just so interesting. This is why I'm hostile to denominationalism because people say,

well, I go to a Baptist church and I've always been a Baptist church. And I think who cares? Is it a good church? or is your church going along with this wicked stuff and are you supporting it? Because then better you should just go to some, you know, non-denominational evangelical church or go someplace where you're hearing the truth. So I'm always amazed at people's unwillingness to leave a church that is part of the problem. I'm just fascinated by it. Yeah. And look, I mean, to Southern Baptist credits, there has been a mass.

massive effort to abolish this entity and it fell short. So at the convention just a couple of weeks ago, there's about I think 43, 44% vote to abolish the ERLC. Now, if you as a pastor have 43% of your church who gives you a vote of no confidence, typically that would result in some restructuring of the organization, maybe new board members, new leadership, but we're not seeing that out of the ERLC. Instead, they sort of defiantly say, well, look, we survived. You know, we, they're taking victory lapse for, you know, things that they had nothing to do with. And they're taking victory lap saying, look, we survived. People support us. But barely. I mean, 44%, 43% of a church body or a denominational body saying, we don't have confidence in you should be a wake-up call. So far,

there's no sign, though, of any sort of humility or recognition that there's a lot of people unhappy with our activities. Well, that's why, and I'm, you know, the broken record, but I say, folks, if you're going to a church where the pastor is not taking a bold, clear stand on these kinds of things, if he's not on the right side of these issues, you are guilty and complicit if you do not leave that church. And if you want to know why things are so bad, it's because Christians go to churches like this, give money to churches like this. And, you know, if this kind of ideology has infiltrated Christianity, today has taken it over, has taken over the ERLC, has taken over colleges, Wheaton College, we mentioned. Ed Sturzer heads up, I think, the Talbot School of Theology at Biola.

I thought, what in the world is happening? That was super just finding that higher, yeah. Astonishing, right? Like, I didn't know what to make of it. Well, I think what you make of it is that these guys are networkers and they know to hold on to, they know how to hold on to their positions of power. And that's what I think you see so often. And that's part of what they do is, you know, when conservative Christians, theological conservatives and political conservatives have rejected them, they have managed to find a home with the left. And they have managed to find the backing and funding of the left. And I think that is why when you ask, why do they do these things with Francis Collins? I think that's a huge. reason why, because these are powerful people in government and in these foundations and at the

World Economic Forum who have access to enormous amounts of wealth and influence, and they want to be a part of that group. So when they are rejected for their progressive politicking, that's who they turn to and they actually will get even more backing because, look, the Hewlett Foundation doesn't realize no evangelicals trust Russell Moore anymore. They don't know that. So they're continuing to fund him to bring this sort of stuff into churches. Well, the final comment for me, I think if you really trust God, you don't look for money and power from these sources. You trust God and you ask him to lead you. If you don't really trust him, you want to hedge your bets, well then you do this kind of wicked stuff. Megan Basham, always great

to speak with you. Thanks for doing what you do. You too. Thanks, Eric. Welcome back. You often hear me talk on this program about our friends at the Hertz. Sog Foundation, and I'm not blowing smoke. For example, Chris Stegal, welcome back to this program. Eric, it's a thrill. Good to see you again, friend. You are like what, the content and communications director of the Herzog Foundation. Is that your title?

Yeah, we make some shows here. I do some external communication with folks like you, so it's been a real privilege. Yes, sir. Well, what's new, Chris? I'm excited I get to actually talk to you. What's what's, you know, it's, what are you guys working on? It's been a very, very interesting time. Of course, given the election news that all of us are talking about, that kind of makes

rethink and imagine everything. Of course, President Trump's huge victory last week. And one of his pledges is I know you've talked with them. I know you've spent some time with him. He has zeroed down on the Department of Education. He said that one of his top line item focuses is to rid the country of the Department of Education. Can you believe, I mean, I just want to say to people, Ladies and gentlemen, can you believe we have lived to see this?

I mean, this reminds me of during his first term when we were talking about energy independence. I said, what? What? Are you kidding? Energy independence in America? Like, I grew up with gas lines, OPEC gas lines in the 70s. Like, I never dreamt we could have energy independence.

And under Donald Trump, we get that. I thought, I just didn't think I could live in a world where that's possible. So for him now to talk. about abolishing this bloated tick on the body politic, which is known as the Department of Education, started by Jimmy Carter, 1979. I thought, I can't believe this. This is a dream come true. To take all that money, to give it back to the States, to give it back to parents, to do with what they want. This is an unbelievable moment in America in our history. And Eric, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm, what am I, 47?

I'm not even, you know, when you say that, I think about 1979, like the Department of Education is not as old as me, which, you know, some of these institutions, you think, oh, well, they've been around too long. We can't touch them. That one seems like one of the easiest one to pick off. I know President Reagan wanted to do it. So I really, we really do hope Donald Trump can succeed here. Well, listen, I think we all know, you know, the theme, of course, is that federal oversight is un-American. We should have the smallest federal government necessary. And when it comes to stuff like educating your kids, you can do it locally. You can do it at the most on the state level. But the federal government has zero business in our constitution. It has no right to be telling parents.

Parents, by the way, can teach their kids anything they want. And they can send them to any school they want. It's not the government's job to tell us what we need to teach our kids. And so, you know, it's why I am such a big fan of the Herzog Foundation, because you guys get this. You're about homeschooling. You're about Christian schooling. This is the future of America. So, you know, I don't know what the next few years contend, but I am absolutely excited. And as you know, what we did see on various state ballots across the country, Eric,

there were some efforts and successful, I'm sorry to say, to repeal some school choice measures in certain states last week. and it's simply because there's a ton of money in protecting the status quo. I don't have to tell you billions of dollars, particularly from teachers unions that are fighting tooth and nail to stop parents from having the choice to take their tax dollars and spend it on their educational choice. So you can't rest on it. I mean, this is something that I think, frankly, as conservatives, we often, we get a little

complacent. We have a big win like this and we think, well, that's settled. They never stop. They never stop. And they always find the funds and teachers unions, particular, highly invested in maintaining that status quo and telling people that your children will never receive an education if the Department of Education doesn't exist or your school district doesn't exist. And look, we're not out to pick on people's schools or their school

districts, but we are out to advocate for parents and say, you know best, you ought to get to educate your children the way you see best. That's the point.