The Eric Metaxas Show - Michael Caparrelli

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Michael Caparrelli discusses his book "Monster Mirror: 100 Hours with David Berkowitz, Once Known as Son of Sam"

Folks, welcome to the Eric Metaxus show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's LegacyPMinvestments.com. Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. It's the show featuring Go-Go-Go the Chimp. Nothing like a chimp to liven up the radio show. Easy there. Go-go, go, go, go. No, go-go, no! Hey there, folks. As you know, I grew up in New York City, in Queens. In the 70s, I remember being with my Uncle Joe. He was a firefighter in the South Bronx. And I remember all the papers were about the son of Sam, the son of Sam. It was a terrifying time in New York City. It was a terrifying time apart from the son of Sam. The city was just a mess. And then I remember they caught this guy. and theoretically he had murdered six people was part of a satanic cult on and on and on.

It's become like folklore. And then I came to faith. And then I heard through a friend of mine, Pastor Don Wilkerson, who married Suzanne and me, that this guy, David Berkowitz, formerly called the Son of Sam, had come to faith, was a born-again believer. blew my mind. I looked into it. It's true. One of the greatest, most beautiful stories ever. I corresponded with David Berkowitz a couple of times. Totally changed man. Well, someone has written a book about this. I'm holding me in my hand. It's called Monster Mirror. A hundred hours with David Berkowitz, once known as Son of Sam. There's a lot in this book. The author of the book,

Michael Caporelli is sitting with me here. Michael, welcome. Thank you. I'm a big fan, Eric. Thank you for having me. Well, listen, I can't get over the fact that you wrote this book. Now, you're a little complicated. I want people to know your story before we get into the story of the redemption of David Berkowitz, which is so, it's just so beautiful to even think that this is true. And I know it's true. But what is your story? Where did you grow up? How did you get to be the guy you are today? I mean, I know you have a PhD in advanced studies in human behavior. You've been a behavioral science professor at three colleges. You lecture on mental health.

You're also a pastor, a Christian. You led a church. So you're a number of different things that leads you to this interview with David Berkowitz. Because you're really, you're staring in the face of evil when you think about what happened way back when. There's no other word for it. But how did you get to be who you are? How are you raised and how did you find yourself to where you are today? You know, like anybody, the grooming for me began at a young age.

I was maybe 10 years old. My mom would take me to see my dad in prison. And my dad had a certain reputation in the neighborhood, but I knew who he was as a person, not his persona, not what was said about him, but the funny, adventurous guy. So I had this heart from a young age for those in prison And knowing that there was a man within the monster, so to speak In Italian-American families, when dad's in prison, the euphemism is school.

So my mother would say, we're going to go see your dad in school. In fact, you know, I said, Ma, what is he in school for? She said, law. So as a kid, I'm visiting dad. This is, you know, a certain period of time during my childhood. And then at 17, I'm going down that same path. I'm locked up in a juvenile. jail in Rhode Island. I was arrested for a string of robberies. People don't know there's a lot of

mafia and organized crime in Providence, where I happened to know that. But so you grew up in that world. The next thing you know, you're 17 and you're you're in the life here. Yeah, not the, I wasn't in the mafia by no means. I was a juvenile delinquent at 17 years old, but certainly aspired that type of thing, just seeing it around me. And while I'm locked up in juvenile jail, a pastor by the name of Mike Krautman, he comes in, he shares the gospel. He's also a correctional officer within the juvenile detention. And it's the first time I experienced the presence of God, left the juvenile detention center, found a church, and never looked back. Be 46. It was at 18 years old.

So it's been the last, I don't know, 28 years of walking with Jesus and growing in the faith. the pastor of my church who's now the president of teen challenge he's the president of new jersey and new england teen challenge his name is pasco manzo uh he grew me in the faith pasco manzo hey pasco manzo hey pasco manzo king of the mozzarella business no i'm just kidding but uh he groomed me in the faith and i ended up uh enrolling in zion bible college in the 90s um you know was Discipled in Zion. Did you ever meet Pastor Ben Crandall? Ben Crandall was the president of the school while I was a student.

I cannot tell you how I love Pastor Ben Cran. You and I have similar spiritual roots. People wouldn't realize. But Times Square Church, David Wilkerson. Pastor Ben Crandall would speak at Times Square. I met Suzanne, my wife at Times Square Church. And Pastor Ben Crandall would preach up until recently. I mean, it was, I guess the last time I saw him there was maybe 2011 or something like that.

But it was so I just loved him. He just passed away. He was the head. Yes, I'd heard about that. And he was the head of, he must have been very old. In his 90s. Yeah. Well, so you went to Zion.

Mount Zion Bible College. I'm in Zion Bible College. It was a student. Then I serve on staff at the church where I was saved, North Providence Assembly of God. And then along the way, I end up getting a master's degree from Liberty, plant the church from North Providence. We leave with 15 people. Grow it from 15 to a few hundred in Rhode Island. pastor for about 16 years, work extensively with inmates within the prison, also work with people

in addictions. We had a very active, vibrant 12-step group. And then about pastoring, I don't know, maybe four or five years into it, I start the PhD. That was 128 credit hours. So worked at the PhD while pastoring the church. And then somewhere about year 16 of pastoral ministry, I suffered two heart attacks. Well, I suffered my first heart attack in the 16th year of pastoring. And then a year later, after I resigned, I suffered the widow maker, which kills 83% of the people. I was in a gym punching a bag, and I just went down. And they took me into Rhode Island Hospital, put four stents within my... And you're pretty young.

I mean, this is... I was in my 40s when I had my heart attack, early 40s. And I knew it was time to resign some of the stress factors involved in pastoring a church that was largely consisting of people with addictions and all sorts of dysfunctional backgrounds. I mean, we called it the church where we keep the fun and dysfunction. And I decided it was time to resign from pasturing, and I started traveling, speaking on mental health. And right now, I'm booked up from now until next year, speaking in churches and schools and prisons across the country on mental health from a biblical perspective. And in the process, that's where I started this book on David Berkowitz's testimony. Tony? Well, it's a big deal. Again, I referred to David Berkowitz, but, you know, I was a kid when this all went down. And it was just, it's still hard to understand. And even though I've corresponded with David Berkowitz, I want to interview him because I have questions about, you know, he was part of a satanic cult. You got to interview him for a hundred hours, part of it with my friend Michael Franziz, who's been on the, you know, he was part of the, you know, he was part of a satanic cult. You got to interview him for a hundred hours. You got to interview him for a hundred hours, part of it part of it, and who's been on the you got to have been on the you got

the show who was one of the top mobsters in America who came to Jesus. I mean, it's so beautiful, you know, when somebody who's part of that world really dramatically comes to faith. But what was it that led you to say that I want to interview David Berkowitz? How did that happen? How did that come about? Well, it really, it wasn't something I saw coming. I just simply felt inspiration from the Holy Spirit to mail him a copy of a prior book I wrote, a book on mental health from a biblical perspective called Dr. Jesus. And I mail Dr. Jesus to David. Again, I have a heart for prison.

As a pastor, I was going in the prison continually, my dad, my own background. And I heard David's testimony. And then he writes me back and he says, can you visit with me? And when I visit with him, this is early 2022. I visit with him in early 2022. And he says to me, you know, you're the kind of guy I've been waiting for, someone with both a background in psychology, but as well as an understanding of spiritual reality, to understand and to explain to the reader what was happening to me back in the 70s

in the spell that I was under. Well, see, this is what a lot of people, including a lot of Christians, don't get. The demonic is real. Jesus did not cast out metaphors, ladies and gentlemen. Okay? In case he didn't know that, it's real. and we need to know that it's real. And you get a lot of pastors,

and a lot of churches, they completely ignore this. They're like, well, go see the psychologist. They'll give you some pills. They don't understand that a lot of what's happening with real mental health stuff is, it's spiritual. So we'll be right back. I'm talking to Michael Caparelli. The book is Monster Mirror.

Monster Mirror. We'll be right back. Remember as a kid, your parents and grandparents making you try all the vegetables on your plate or when they coax you to eat fruit instead of sweets, That's because they knew what was good for you, and it's trueer today than ever before. You need to eat your fruits and veggies. There's no substitute for a healthy diet, but there is balance of nature.

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You spent 100 hours, 100 hours with David Berkowitz, formerly known as the son of Sam. And you deal with, I mean, you know, you have a PhD in the mental health world, but you are also a pastor who understands the reality of the spiritual world. And this is to me one of the main problems we have, something I talk about all the time, the secularization of the culture, including much of the church. it doesn't have this category.

And you want to smack people. It's like, hey, it's like saying, I don't believe tumors exist. Like, you're not going to be able to solve the problem. If you don't believe that tumors exist and you can have an operation to remove the cancerous tumor. So to say that the satanic or the demonic, that's where, you know, we don't go there. Like, there's a time. There's no other place to go. That's where exactly the problem is.

And so it's interesting to me that, you know, David Berkowitz has, lived this. He understands this was not like a delusion that happened to him in his 20s. Do you talk about that in the book about what happened to him? Oh, yeah. I described nine particular mental health breakdowns, isolation, shame, resentment. And I discuss how these particular themes interplay with the satanic. Satan doesn't just jump on somebody. There are doorways. And Satan knocked David open the door. So we're not dismissing human responsibility. Oh, of course not.

No. This is not a devil made me do with a story. Right, that's right. That's right. But let's face it, I mean, how many times I'm sure the average viewer can relate to this, you behave out of character, whatever it is you do, you kick the cat, you punch the wall. Yeah. And when you're done behaving out of character, you say, I don't know what got into me.

I'm sorry. I don't know what possessed me. Interesting vernacular. You don't know what possessed you. It almost insinuates some paranormal energy that whips up our human, emotions into, you know, a frenzy. And David's story is not just the story of the demonic, but it is also a story of mental health breakdowns and how he was easy prey for an enemy that pounced on him. But that's what's so interesting. It's both. That's right. It's both.

And as we make decisions, we end up in a place, and now we are really ripe for satanic attack. And he's the classic case of that, the loner. You know, he's a, you know, he's. He was not exactly a popular, successful person. He was lost, and he's looking for meaning. And you see this today among, you know, people, whether they're attracted to Antifa or the pro-Hamas gangs or the transgender world. They're lost. They're looking for identity, for meaning. And they open themselves up to things that often they have no idea what they're playing with.

Most definitely. I mean, let's take isolation, for instance. David was a very isolated individual. Genesis, God says it's not good for man to be alone. The data in behavioral science shows that when you take a rodent and you isolate it for so many days from its community and return it back to the community, it attacks the other rodents at the point of reentry. Because aggression, adrenaline, goes up when we're isolated, and oxytocin, which is empathy, goes down. So in isolation, we saw this during 2020.

People get very aggressive and they get less empathetic, the more isolated. So David was an isolated individual. That's not to make excuses for him. But it is to shed light on some of the situational factors so that we as teachers, caretakers, parents can learn what to do differently with our child. We'd like to believe that the David Berkowitz is all the people. But my presupposition in the book is there are no other people

that what is inside of David Berkowitz is Jeremiah 17, the heart of man, not the heart of a psychopath, not the heart of an antisocial. The heart of man is wicked and deceitful above all things. So I make a very timeless argument that mankind has potential for great evil. And most people underestimate the power of a situation and what it might draw out of them. I mean, we saw that with the Stanford Prison Experiment back in the 70s. You know, you take average people.

You put them under the right situational factors. And what's inside of us can shock us. But we're living in a very humanistic society. We think we're wonderful. and the other guy is the narcissist. Well, Monster Mirror is really putting a mirror in the face of the Rita to say that if these situational factors happen to you, happen to your kid, I believe anybody's capable of anything. Well, it's powerful stuff.

Now, the story of David Berkowitz, for people listening, because I'm assuming too much, actually, there are people who don't know anything about this, that they're, you know, young. So give us the basics. of what happened with him? Well, from 1975, really, all the way up until 1977, David was responsible for multiple shootings. Some of them ended up fatal. Others were injuries, also a stabbing.

He also lit 1,400 fires. What? He lit 1,400 fires. 1,400? documented in a journal that when the NYPD arrested him in 1977, he had logged for decades. Fire, well, I wouldn't say decades, but over a decade, going back to his early childhood, where he lit abandoned buildings, abandoned parking lots.

I mean, the South Bronx, as you know, was burning down at the time, and David was responsible, unfortunately, for some of those fires. So he was a wrecking ball. As far as his involvement in satanic occultism, David made some shocking confessions in the book. And I'll let the reader read that. But he is the lone gunman behind the shootings. He was.

Because at some point, because I followed this case for years, at some point he made it sound like it was more complicated that he had done some of the six that he was accused of, but maybe not all, but he didn't want to tell on the others. But you're saying that he now says he lied. He lied. Why would why? Well, he lied back in the early 1990s.

And he was in a great deal of denial. not wanting to face the facts of what he did and involving other people in the crimes help spread some of the culpability, reduce some of the shame. And during my process of meeting with him, now there are other son of Sam researchers that I tip my hat off to that did some homework

to show that this wasn't actually the case, but to actually get a confession of David Berkowitz's mouth, it took about 50 hours of the 100 where I met with him. And I started to kind of get the sense that he wasn't telling me the truth. And then one day he called me on the phone at home and he said, I have to come clean with you about some things. And I met with him one on one, broke down and said, I lied. And I said, you know, David,

I said, other people might look at you right now and have a stone to throw. But to me, this is further evidence of your Christian conversion. Because let's face it, even Christians lie. I know some people have a tough time with that. He was a believer. He was a believer for a few years. But that is confusing to me, because I would think, what is the point? You give your heart to Jesus and what is the point of hiding? You know, you could say lie. I mean, he was sort of hiding stuff. Yes.

Which is, you know, there's different kinds of lies. It doesn't make it right. But I'm saying why, what was his motivation to do that? Here he is. He has been utterly forthright in saying, I'm guilty. I shouldn't get out of prison. I did these things or whatever. But so why was he shading part of this truth?

Yeah, well, he was under the pressure, not to make excuses for him. I'm just telling you what he told me. Yeah. He was under the pressure of certain journalists at the time that really wanted to press this particular narrative and story. He felt pressure from him. And I think he was trying to make right, you know, wrongs with certain people he cares about. But anyway, the point is he came clean in the book. He's broken about it.

He's been living with this secret for the last 30 years. And the secret has eaten away like cancer on the inside of him. What's the larger lie? In other words, if you're accused of killing six people and you make it sound like, well, I only kill three, what's the difference? I still don't understand why. Well, because it's not just I killed three. I was with the group and the pressure of the group diminishes culpability within his own mind. You know, it's like peer pressure.

But the point is that that is true, in other words, that there was a cult. But not at the crime scenes, not at the actual. No, but I'm saying, and I'm curious. In other words, he was actually part of a satanic cult that was involved in this. He says he was involved in some occultic activity that were happening, ceremonies that were happening within the Yonkers area, and that cult certainly talked this kind of stuff. But David had a profile from the time he was a kid of always being a part of a group,

but maintaining a rogue status. For instance, when he was a teenager, he was involved in the volunteer fireman club where they would put out fires. Well, that's what he did with the group. But when he was alone, he set the fires. He's set in fires. When he's about seven or eight, he's riding his bicycle with his friends. His friends, they all ride the bike within the neighborhood. But then David ventures off alone and drives all the way to Cos Cobb.

So he, oh, yeah. What? Yeah, he did. He drove to Connecticut? From the Bronx. From the Bronx? He drives at that age to Connecticut. My point is he always had this profile where he's a part of a group.

Yeah. But maintaining this rogue status. But I guess the question is, was the satanic stuff real or was that trumped up? That was real. There were satanic cults, which I believe the journalist did a good job at actually uncovering the reality of that. There were satanic cults meeting within the Yonkers area. I know that there were reporting of German shepherds, the carcasses of German shepherds that were found sacrifices made on Satanic altars. And David

was influenced, no doubt, in a part of that energy, if we want to call it an energy. Okay. But, right, he was not just like, you know, like one of the the Manson family, just doing the bidding of some Svengali. He was on his own. We'll be right back talking to Michael Caprilli. The book is

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That's N-U-T-R-A-M-E-D-I-X.com. Neutrametics.com, use the code Eric for 15% off. Again, Nutrametics, N-U-T-R-A-M-E-D-I-X.com. Neutrametics.com, use the code Eric for 15% off. I'm talking to Michael Caparelli, author of Monster Mirror, 100 hours with David Berkowitz, once known as Son of Sam, on mental health and evil phenomena. Okay, so did he ever hear demonic voices, or was that made up?

No, he did. He did. And the demon was called Sam? Yeah, well, they'd call it from a psychiatric point of view, a command hallucination. But from a spiritual point of view, David believes, and I'm with him on this, that it was a demon talking to him. And he believed that he was at the behest of that demon in killing. That doesn't mean that resentment didn't play a role.

I mean, even Ephesians tells us, be careful for the anger and letting the sun go down on your anger for you'll give what? The devil a foothold. So certainly his own internal mechanisms were a part of this. But yeah, he believed that it was his neighbor's dog, his neighbor, Mr. Carr, and he believed that Mr. Carr's dog was commanding him to go out and kill. Did he know at the time that this is a demon speaking through the dog,

or what is your sense of what happened? He took a great deal of pride at that point in his life, of being a soldier of Satan. It's how he found his significance. I mean, you wrote a book about finding meaning. That was his meaning in the world, was believing that he was this soldier of Satan. It's pretty clear in the letters that he left.

You know, the letters that he sent, Jimmy Bresslin, letters he left at the crime scenes, this idea that he was programmed to kill and that he was carrying out his marching orders, it gave him a sense of specialness or significance from a psychological point of view, maybe a narcissistic profile for sure and psychopathic. But from a spiritual perspective, David believes he was a soldier of Satan. It's so fascinating. I mean, I was sitting here, I don't know, a month ago where you're sitting, Jordan Peterson was sitting, and we're talking about the demonic, and he has a very attenuated perspective on it.

And I try to say, well, hang on a second. You know, Christians believe that there are actual demons, that this is not metaphorical, whatever. Now, it is complicated because when we're talking about this, we're dealing with the invisible. It's real, but it's invisible. So it's hard to say, you know, at what point my propensity to do wrong bumps up against an actual satanic force. We, it's hard to say, you know, we don't have an x-ray gun where you can say, oh, here's the line. It's complicated. And this is what you're writing about and what you're dealing with, because when you're dealing with mental health and actual evil, you realize it's not so clean.

It's not so simple. You can't say, the devil made me do it. And yet, that can be a part of it. It's kind of like drinking alcohol. If somebody behaves a certain way under the influence of a drug, are they responsible for how they behave under the drug? Yeah, they put the drug in their body. But what comes out of them while they're under the influence of the alcohol

or under the influence of the LSD is amplified. Right. So it's the same thing with coming under a demonic power. It's amplified. But are you responsible? 100%. David Berkowitz is responsible. The devil knocked.

David Berkowitz opened the door. He opened the door at a young age. He was a very resentful child. His father called him a spite worker at six, seven years old because of all the very vindictive behaviors that he practiced from six, seven years old. So nobody is arguing that David Berkowitz is not responsible for these crimes.

Well, including David Berkowitz. He'd be the first to say. Yes. He's a very resentful child. And I would believe that resentment played a big role in opening the door for the demonic at a young age. And what do you suppose, I mean, was he sexually abused at a young age?

What opened the door for him at such a young age, six, seven years old, to be like that? Any ideas? Yeah, we talk, I talk in the book in Chapter 3, I say we, meaning David and I, about shame. He was shamed greatly. For instance, his teacher in the third grade, she put his desk in the middle of the class and said to his classmates, this is where the bad boy sit. And he hated going to school because he didn't want to be shamed in school. his uncle would call him fat constantly.

I mean, constantly body shaming him. He's a part of an adopted family. Always felt sort of like an outsider within that adopted family. Even though his adopted parents, Pearl and Nat, were wonderful. He still had this sense of not being really a part of the Berkowitz family. So that outsider mentality, lots of shaming incidences, definitely fueled his psychopathy. but David is responsible the other day.

He made choices and choices made him. Well, as I said, he's owned that many, many times. So what was it? I mean, to somebody who gives himself over to satanic evil, to murder for the sake of murder, you know, it's one thing to murder for some reason. It doesn't make it any less murderous, but to just murder because you're trying to serve the devil,

which is actually what he thought he was doing. He's apprehended. he goes to prison at what point how does somebody like that turn to God what in the world opened him up to turning to God he did have some brief Christian experiences

before his killings but they didn't last too long it was when he was in the military he calls it very superficial that time of his life while he was in prison about 10 years first 10 years in prison in Attica and then in Sullivan

those first 10 years were very dark David said he still had a lot of occultic, you know, practices in his cell. But then at the 10th year, an inmate by the name of Rick, David describes him as a short Hispanic man, approached him in the prison yard. It was during the winter of 1988 and shared the gospel with him and gave David a Gideon Bible. And David said, I'm too far gone. Jesus would never forgive me. And Rick was very persistent.

He met David outside in that prison yard consistently for six months. And then David finally took a Gideon Bible He went back to his cell Open the Gideon Bible I think it was Psalm 34 Got on his knees He said I just started sobbing He said I wasn't crying because I was in prison

I wasn't crying because I ruined my life I was crying because I sinned against heaven And he just repented And he woke up the next day He said he felt like he was brand new Now listen David's a work in progress Well hang on a second We're going to go to break

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Salem now.com. Welcome back talking to Michael Caperelli, author of Monster Mirror, about David Berkowitz, formerly known as the son of Sam. And I want to say we're going to be doing another interview for Socrates in the studio. We'll cover some of the same stuff, but a lot of different stuff. Socrates in the studio, go to Socrates. In the City.com Socrates Plus. So you just said, and this rankles a lot of,

theologically hidebound Christians that he's a work in progress because they act like, well, you're saved, you're done. And I've fallen into that camp where you think, well, somebody's born again, that's it. And he think, no, you just cross the starting line. Now comes sanctification. Now comes spending the rest of your life trying to become more like Jesus. But a lot of people don't want to hear that. They're just like, no, he's saved.

So he's not going to sin again. But clearly, even though he has this major moment in 1988, it sounds like he's been on a journey. Well, listen, habits are like comfortable beds. They're easy to fall into and they're hard to crawl out of. David had developed a lot of habits, habits of deceiving, getting over on people, habits of violence.

I mean, even in his early years of being in prison, he got into a couple of altercations. He was stabbed in the neck. I mean, you can see the scar. It goes all the way probably about, I don't know, eight inches. Scar goes in the back of his neck all the way to his adamant. Adam's apple. So David, you know, he was a work in progress. He still

is. In meeting with him, I believe in his conversion, not because he's perfect. In fact, if he was perfect, I probably would disbelieve the conversion. A gemologist says if a stone is perfect, it's not a diamond, it's a cub of saconium, it's the home shopping network. So it's probably been the cracks,

the flaws, the transparency of his flaws, the willingness to work through some of his character defects, to tell me about those defects. That's been for me, the real convincing factor that this guy is the real deal. The University of Boston, I think it was. They did a study that showed the average person can't go 15 minutes without lying.

Now, most people don't know their lying because they rationalize and they justify the lie upside down and sideways. But we are as people, sinful beings, and it's taken some time for David to confront some of those character defects. and I confront him in the book, in particular one chapter about some of those character defects. And his response to me is very indicative of a man who's been transformed. He says, my name is Jacob, meaning I'm a heel grabber. I've been deceiving. He hugs the cactus, so to speak. He comes clean.

So, yes, he has been a work in progress. There's just so much to say. I almost don't know where to go from here. How old is he now? 71. So he's 71. He's not old. I mean, he's 71.

He's been in prison for 46 years. I was going to say, it's coming up on 50 years. It's unbelievable. So what does he feel about himself now? That he's, you know, he's worked hard really to share his faith. You know, you say he's a work in progress, but he's not unclear on, you know, the basics. No, he knows he's forgiven, very active in his faith. He shares his faith continually.

He leads a Bible study once a week with other inmates, probably about 15 to 17 inmates. He actually call him Pastor Dave. He blushes at the title. It's not something he's comfortable with. But he definitely struggles with the shame of what he did. I remember one day we took a picture together. We take photos together sometimes when I visit him. And I handed him the photo.

and he looked at it for a quick second and he handed it right back. He said, I don't like looking at photos of myself. And I said, what's that about, Dave? We talk a little bit about it. I describe it in the book. And it really came down to shame.

You know, he doesn't like the man he was and he knows that that man that he was is kind of omnipresent. You know, it's in the media. He goes back to his cell, turns on the television. There it is, a documentary. You know, one of the 40s, six channels on his TV, and it's 16-inch TV in his cell, and he's going to relive, you know,

the murders that he committed, the awful tragedies. So it's put in his face a lot, the man that he was, and he lives with the shame and the trauma of that. Well, I mean, that's what's so interesting. You can be 100% forgiven, but there's still, I don't know what it is. It's something. I mean, we're new creations in Christ, but somehow, until we're with the Lord face-to-face, you know, you can't undo the murders, you can't go back.

So it's hard. I think it's hardest for us to forgive ourselves. When I came to faith, before I came to faith, I read a book. Part of the way that I came to faith was reading a book by M. Scott Peck called People of the lie about evil. And here you have a Harvard psychiatrist who himself runs out of Langdon. or categories for some of what he's seeing in his psychiatric practice. And he finally realizes there's this thing called evil.

It's not just something in the human person. There's this thing. There's this satanic stuff that, you know, every once in a while he'd bump into it. And that seems to me that's what we're dealing with in a David Berkowitz. I mean, for somebody to be able to go out and murder in this way, where else? I mean, where do secular psychologists, where do they put this stuff? Yeah, you know, we live in a world where two-thirds of the world still believes in demonic possession. Now, Americans think of that as horse and buggy.

We think of that as an antiquated philosophy. But the facts are we lead the way in human trafficking, child pornography, mental health problems, and we're the most rational. So here we are with all our rational solutions. I mean, we're so left brain where our bodies are tilting to the left. we're walking down the sidewalk. But I don't know that we have all the answers, given the fact that we're the leading proponents of evil

on many domains and many levels. So two-thirds of the world, people in Africa, people in other countries say, no, it's more than just mental health, it's more than psychological, it's diabolical. Oh, there's no doubt about it. I mean, look, I've had on this program many times, my friend Ken Fish, who does deliverance.

This is what he does, healing and deliverance. I've seen it. It's real. but there are people for whom this cannot be a category, so they writhe away from it, and they come up with, you know, idiotic terms. You know, it's the same lie that says there's no God. And so, you know, when in the early days of our friend,

Pastor Don Wilkerson, you know, when they did a study on the recidivism rates are so low with Teen Challenge, well, we're going to call it the X factor. The X factor is Jesus. Like they have no care. They don't know what to say. They're stuck because the evidence, points to there's more than just, you know, us.

There's a spiritual world. Some of that is good. Some of that is evil. We're at a time. Michael Caprilli, thank you. I look forward to our Socrates conversation. The book is Monster Mirror, 100 Hours, with David Berkowitz. God bless you.

Thank you, sir. I want to remind you about a couple things. First of all, I've got to remind you again about C-S-I-E-R-E. We every day find out how many people have participated in this. And every one of you who has participated, I want to say, God bless you. Thank you very much. And thank you. Because we are literally freeing slaves.

They're in the Sudan. It's hard to believe we can do this. I want to help you understand this is a very big deal that we get to do this. You know, usually when you spend money, you're not sure. What was the point of that? The point of this couldn't be more dramatic and clear. You're freeing slaves. If you go to our website, it's metaxis talk.com.

You'll see the banner. It's really vital that you participate. We need your help. They come to us because they know we have an audience that cares about this. If everybody would just do the smallest part, it really doesn't matter. But participation of any kind, please go to metaxis talk.com. We're going to keep hitting this because there's just nothing more beautiful and no more glorious an opportunity to do something beautiful. I want to remind you also of our friends at Americans for Prosperity.

They bought the bidinomics.com website. I just want to queue like a horse left. Yeah, was that for sale? Bidinomics.com. So if you go to Bidinomics.com, you'll find out, oh, here's what Kooky Joe said. And it turns out that it's not true. It turns out that the Biden claims of the economy. Now, this is probably the only thing they've ever lied about.

I want to be clear. But their economic claims are phony. And if you want the truth, you go to bidinomics.com. It's pretty cool. If you go there, it's really well designed. It's kind of a visual snapshot of all the categories that, you know, are suffering in the economy. And it lays it out in a very sort of user-friendly, easy-to-digest way. So it's, they did a good job with that.

And they're doing a thing this summer called prosperity as possible. So they've got buses and vans covering the country that talk about prosperity as possible. Look, I think most Americans understand things are a mess. And Bidenomics.com will show you specifically how much of a mess. Also, I want to remind you, our friend Jason Jones has a book out called The Great Campaign Against the Great Reset, available everywhere. it lays out the campaign really of the globalist maniacs who are trying to destroy the world. And I actually believe that the Biden, you know, when we're talking about Bidenomics, that they are in part trying to drive us to socialism.

So they kind of know that they're hurting our economy, but they just talk this good game like pretending like, you know, we're not supposed to notice. But most Americans notice. And it's part of the Great Reset, the so-called. called Great Reset, really to destroy the Western powers and to create this globalist secular caliphate. That's pretty much what it is. So Jason Jones has written a book called The Great Campaign Against the Great Reset.

And he talks about the details of what is the Great Reset because it's evil, but you need to know specifically what it is. And then what we can do about it, the Great Campaign Against the Great Reset. Okay, before we go to our break, got to mention, we're doing something. Socrates in Oxford this July 9th through 12th. Actually, I am very excited. I don't get excited about much. I'm excited about this. I'm very excited about this. If you want to go to Oxford, England, it's gorgeous. It's beautiful. I've got so many guests. We haven't finalized the whole list. But at the website, if you go to Socrates in the city, you can already see who we've booked. But we're working on others. There's going to be a tour of C.S. Louis's home, a tour of the Ashmolean Museum. We're doing it at the Ramp. Andolf Hotel. I mean, it's heavenly. You go to the website Socrates in the city and you can check it out. And I should say next week, we have a Socrates event right here in New York City. If you can come, come. If you can't come, you can watch it live. But you have to be a member of Socrates Plus.

So go to Socratesinthecity.com. Sign up. All right.