The Eric Metaxas Show - Michael Ward (Continued)

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

Is Morality Objective? A Discussion of C.S. Lewis’s The Abolition of Man

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. We'll get you from point A to point B. But if you're looking for point C, well, buddy, you're on your own. But if you'll wait right here, in just about two minutes, the bus to point C will be coming right by. And now here's your Ralph Cramden of the Airways, Eric Mattaxas. Although I'm not a Roman Catholic, I tend almost always, and in the United States,

this case to defer to Catholic doctrine on this issue. So it's interesting how philosophically, biologically, you can wind it back to what we're talking about, this issue of subjectivism. Was there more that was going on early in the 20th century that made Lewis aware of the problem with what we're calling subjectivism? Did he, again, he is prophetic. But when you're writing about reality effectively as he does, you sort of can't help but be prophetic. That's what I find fascinating because God created reality. And if you follow the dots, you're not able to get away from reality for very long, though we try. Yeah. And interestingly, you don't have to be a Christian to follow reality. Correct. This is Lewis's whole point. He's talking anthropologic.

This is what it means to be human. And anybody who's living humanly, whatever their religion, will come to very similar conclusions. So an interesting example is George Orwell, you know, who is Lewis's contemporary, roughly speaking, and Orwell, too, in the 1930s, began to zero in on this question of contraception.

His novel, Keep the Asper Distra Flying, is all about that. Which novel? Keep the Asper Distra flying. Guzintight, which novel? I've not heard of... No, it's not one of his better known novels. I do want to point out that George Orwell reviewed that hideous strength.

Yes, yes, yes. I only know that because I read your book after humanity. But the idea that Orwell, you know, we think of as a mythic figure, reviewed Lewis's book, That Hidious Strength, is at least fascinating, at least interesting. But so, yeah, in other words, when we're talking about reality, and this is important, I think, for Christians to understand. We're simply talking about reality. We're arguing for reality.

We're not arguing for our version of reality, which is a kind of subjectivism, if we're doing that. We're arguing for reality. And Lewis talks about the Dow. Talk a little bit about the Dow, because he's appealing to reason. He's not trying to convince people to become Christians, so to speak.

He's appealing to reason itself. Exactly. He says explicitly in the abolition of man, though I am myself a theist and indeed a Christian, I am not in this book attempting even an indirect argument for theism. It's not a religious argument. It's a philosophical argument. He's trying to define what it means to be human. You can only be a Christian if you're a human being first, obviously.

So let's sit down, he's saying, and work out what it means to be a human being. And this is his answer, the recognition of objective value. All human societies, insofar as they have been human, have recognized objective value. And that's why, you know, the book ends with a very interesting appendix of eight moral values. And Lewis supports each of these values, such as the law of general beneficence, the law of special beneficence. the law of special beneficence, duties to parents, elders, ancestors, and so on, with any number of citations from ancient Egyptian writings, ancient Jewish, Christian, Stoic, Native America. So he says these are universal values because they are built into the warp and wolf of reality itself.

They're inescapable. Yeah. Now, we would say that that inevitably points back. to God, the author of reality, but he's just making the case for reality. He's saying that these things are not avoidable, and that these people who are subjectivists, they are trying to avoid reality. They're trying to make the case that everything's subjective, your views are your views, my views are my views, and it doesn't matter. And of course, this leads us to Nietzsche. I mean, talk a little bit about Nietzsche, because that's what happens.

if you say that your morality is just a construct. It has no link to reality. That leads to bad things. It does. And Nietzsche is only the most notorious, one of the most recent exponents of subjectivism taken to its logical conclusion. but, you know, it's there back in ancient times.

Lewis quotes juvenile, the ancient Roman poet. Hockvolo, sick ubio, sick pro rationsona voluntas. Thank you. Which means, this I will, so I command. Let my will take the place of reason. Now there, you've got the will to power, the Nietzschean will to power, identified by juvenile in the first century AD. So in one sense, Nietzsche is nothing new.

He's just bringing it to a new pitch of intensity and possibility. And one of the reasons it's now increasingly possible for us to live in that way is because we have put in our hands all sorts of new tools by means of which we can control and distort reality because of growth in science and technology. not that Lewis is against science and technology at all. He's against their abuse. And one of the ways in which they can be abused is by, as it were, ourselves determining that because we can do something, we shall do something.

You know, it's the Jeff Goldblum, Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park. The scientists were so keen to discover that they could do something and they never stopped to ask whether they should. Goldblum does say that. Yeah. It's funny. You know, so even Spielberg, you know, you can't help. Again, the house, you're playing against the house. You will always lose.

God created reality. And if you're paying any attention to any part of it, you stumble on these things. So Lewis was very aware. And in the ransom trilogy, he does talk about the malevolence of science in the wrong hands. It's very creepy. And Lewis, most people are not aware, but Lewis's writing, particularly in the Ransom Trilogy, can be really deeply chilling, horrifying in a way. He's sort of, he's writing, at least in some passages, horror. That's the genre that it seems to fall into.

It's frightening. And the Dark Tower is a great example of that, which was his unfinished novel. But it's horrific. And so the end of that hideous strength, when you're talking about this disembodied human head, it's really horrifying. And that's the genius of Lewis, is to point out how these things lead not just to something sort of neutral, like unreality, but to something satanic. And so the abolition of man is a satanic project. It is. You know, one of the names of Satan is the devil, Diabolos, and Diabolos means throwing apart, scattering.

And that's precisely what happens to the human person when we allow our head and our belly to be torn apart. But the chest, uniting them is what brings integrity and unity and harmony to these otherwise centrifugal elements of nature. They will fly apart if you give them half a chance, because they will fly apart. the devil wants that to happen. Hey folks, listeners to my show know I'm passionate about the work of Christian Solidarity International because they protect and free those who are being persecuted and enslaved for their faith. Thanks to you to date, CSI has freed more than 100,000 people from slavery in Sudan, but the work is not done yet.

It's estimated that there are still tens of thousands more still in bondage, and CSI is preparing right now for their final slave liberation of this year. I'm hoping you'll join me and help them liberate another 300, women and children. Your gift of just $250 will free a woman in Sudan who has been enslaved for years and provide her with food and other supplies necessary to start her new life. Call 888-253-3522. 888-253-3522. Christian Solidarity International, freeing and healing captives in Jesus' name. Go to metaxistalk.com. Metaxistalk.com. Click on the Christian Solidarity banner. Metaxistock.com. 35 22. God bless you. Okay, every new year, we all spend a few days seriously thinking about what we can do

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Mypillow.com. Eric. I mean, we're talking, it's like talking about stem cells. I mean, we're talking about everything when we talk about this. And that's why the abolition of man is so vital and dense and important. Right now, in the transgender madness in which we find ourselves, is a classic example of what Lewis was pointing to, the idea that if I can do it, let's do it. not asking whether one should do it, and how it's at war with reality and seems to delight in being at war with reality.

In other words, it's one thing to say there's no objective reality, and I can be anything I like, and I will be anything I like. There's this Nietzschean will to power there, but it also seems to be a kind of satanic rage against God, who's the author of reality. that all this is kind of wrapped up, which is why sometimes it becomes genuinely horrific. You're quite right. That hideous strength is a deeply disturbing book in certain episodes where, yes, Lewis takes to the uttermost extreme of the chain of logic, this subjectivist philosophy, and it ends in the worship of Satan. it is truly horrifying. But the point is that all of us are, to a certain extent, tempted in that direction because it is, in a sense, as I've said twice before, a kind of definition of sin. But say more about that. How is it a definition of sin?

Well, Adam and Eve, they said that they are told by God that the Garden of Eden is such and such, is thus and thus, and that if they want to live in it, successfully at peace harmoniously, they can do anything they like except one thing. And that's the one thing they refuse to abide by because they think, oh, well, I'll make reality as I see fit. I won't live within the constraints of reality. I will bend them to suit my own will. It's nothing other than sin, in essence.

but conscience, the interior knowledge of right and wrong, is a vestige of God's image in us. In all human beings, all human beings have got this interior light, because God is the father of lights, as St. James says in the epistle, a verse Lewis was very fond of quoting. And therefore, any human being, in whatever culture, in whatever tradition,

in whatever religious context, insofar as they're following their conscience, are living within the constraints of reality, which is why the Tao, as Lewis calls it, this Chinese word for objective value, is to be found the world over and down through time and history. It's not a specifically Christian or even Judaic possession. It's a human possession. Well, so what Lewis talks about on the one hand is the horror of the abolition of man, the horror of following one's feelings to the end.

But what he also does, and I want to talk about it. Yes, the feelings, absolutely, but also the will. Either one will serve your purposes. Right. Because it's not, I mean, Lewis, we must be careful. Louis is not against feelings. And neither is he against subjectivity. We are subjects.

We perceive reality through our own subjective perspective. Right. What he's against is subjectiveism, which is an important distinction. And that subjectivism can manifest itself either through letting the feelings run amok or letting the intellect run amok. Yeah. Yeah, and what I was saying is he, so he shows the horror of that really dissolution of humanity, of the human person. But he also, in much of his writing, and I always think principally in the Narnia Chronicles, he shows the beauty of human beings as they can be and should be. He really almost uniquely is able to give us a picture of that,

a picture of men being chivalrous, men being men in God's sense, of women being women. There's something really beautiful about that, and that's very difficult, I think, to portray in fiction. I mean, you know, it's a cliche to say that it's more difficult to portray what is good than evil. It's easy to portray what's evil, but you really have to be particularly gifted to pull off portraying the good in a way that makes it attractive. And I don't think anyone does it better than Lewis. You're quite right. And I think one of the beauties of the Narnia Chronicles is that those seven books, as it were, manifest in fictional form. Lewis's hard one philosophizing in a very accessible manner.

I've got a whole section in this book about how, when you look at the Narnia Chronicles in the light of the abolition of man, you see in each book any number of examples of the recognition of objective value. And also a celebration of feeling and a celebration of rationality. Because reason and feeling are not at odds with each other, properly understood. And when they are

in harmony, you begin to enjoy life because you're living as you're created to live. And that's in the best parts of the Nanian world, precisely what Lewis depicts. In Thomas Mann's novella

death in Venice, he seems to touch on these themes. This is written before Lewis was writing, but it's the same kind of thing. I mean, I read it as an undergraduate, and it's, he, he talks about the Apollinian and the Dionysian. And so the Apollinian, of course, is the cerebral, to some extent, the Dionysian is the... Appetitive? Appetitive. There's got to be another word. I can't believe that I can't think of another word now. I'm going to be saying appetitive for the rest of my life, because it's

in a very repetitive fashion. Yeah, yes. I may. But so, but it's interesting because what I, as an undergraduate reading Mon's novella, I remember seeing that the one of the principal, the principal figure, Aschenbach, he, we're always tempted either to reach for the Apollinian, the cerebral, at the expense of the rest of us, which ends up ironically serving the Dionysian. And he kind of stumbles down to the. Dionysian abyss of appetite. But it's interesting because it is a human thing. Mon was not thinking

along theological lines. He wasn't thinking along biblical lines. He was simply trying to portray reality. And in the course of the novella, he tells a story where you see that somebody who reaches for the cerebral at the expense of the rest of oneself ends up ironically staggering down in the opposite direction. But that's why this is. is so important is because these ideas are not escapable. In other words, the idea that Lewis is putting forth is simply reality. And I just find it particularly interesting where we are now in our culture, in Western culture, the United States and here, with regard to all this, because it seems that more people, certainly the cultural elites, they're waging a war on reality. They're angry at reality.

I see it as a rage against God. Ultimately, whether they realize, it or don't, but they feel really put upon to have to deal with the constraints of their physical reality and their humanity. Yes. But it's not just the elites, it's everybody. Nobody likes reality. Mankind cannot abide very much reality, as who was it, T.S. Eliot said. We always want to shield ourselves against it because it threatens us. Because We are called to be gods, as Lewis likes to say. We're made human, but we're made human so that we can become partakers of the divine nature, to quote St. Peter. And that's a troublesome process.

And we feel it as a threat. We guard ourselves against God and reality. So it's something that all of us, whatever station in life we find ourselves in, resist. And your heart have helped me safe from a row and sea there's always

been a quiet place. Hey folks, listeners to my show know I'm passionate about the work of Christian Solidarity International because they protect and free those who are being persecuted and enslaved for their faith. Thanks to you to date, CSI has freed more than 100,000 people from slavery in Sudan,

but the work is not done yet. It's estimated that there are still tens of thousands more still in bondage. And CSI is preparing right now for their final slave liberation of this year. I'm hoping you'll join me and help them liberate another 300 women and children. Your gift of just $250 will free a woman in Sudan who has been enslaved for years and provide her with food and other supplies necessary to start her new life. Call 888-253-3522.

888-253-2522 Christian Solidarity International, freeing and healing captives in Jesus his name, go to metaxistocot.com, metaxistocot.com, click on the Christian Solidarity banner, metaxistock.com or 888-253.3522. God bless you. Hey, folks, listeners to my show know I'm passionate about the work of Christian Solidarity International because they protect and free those who are being persecuted and enslaved for their faith. Thanks to you to date, CSI has freed more than 100,000 people from slavery in Sudan, but the work is not done yet. It's estimated that There are still tens of thousands more still in bondage. And CSI is preparing right now for their final slave liberation of this year.

I'm hoping you'll join me and help them liberate another 300 women and children. Your gift of just $250 will free a woman in Sudan who has been enslaved for years and provide her with food and other supplies necessary to start her new life. Call 888-253-3522. 888-253-2522, Christian Solidarity International, freeing and healing captives in Jesus' name. Go to metaxistock.com. Metaxistock.com.

Click on the Christian Solidarity banner. Metaxistock.com or 888-2533522. God bless you. My most recent book, Religinalist Christianity, I talk about the Tower of Babel and or would you say Babel. Babel. I prefer Babel because that's how Elton John pronounces it in one of his songs. but the Tower of Babel or Babel is a picture of trying to reach heaven divinity on our own terms.

So it's diabolical. And that's what we're talking about right now. We're talking about humanity having the ability now in the first part of the 21st century, at least to deceive ourselves that we might, in our own. our own strength, transcend reality. We might become as gods. We may become anything we like. Transhumanism is at the heart of this idea. We just have a few minutes left. But it seems interesting to me that technology now gives us the ability to mutilate ourselves, to give ourselves drugs, to think that we might somehow transcend what some people would think of as the prison of my reality,

and how extraordinary that Lewis is writing about this 80 years ago. I'm glad you mentioned the Tower of Babel because that hideous strength, the very title of that novel, is derived from a 16th century poem about the Tower of Babel. Do you know that I learned that only this morning reading your book? No, no, I didn't know that. I have to say I was really thrilled. I was thrilled because I, maybe I read it years ago and I forgot, but say that.

I mean, a 16th century poem. Yes. By a chap called David Lindsay, I think he was Scottish. So can you quote it? He says, he's talking about the shadow of that hideous strength, six mile and more it is in length. See, that there, right there, that line is chilling. chilling the shadow so we're thinking of a of a tower reaching to the heavens yes the shadow of that

hideous strength six mile and more mile and more it is in length it is in length i don't know why but i find that chilling yeah well nobody wants to live in the shadow you know the land of the shadow is, of course, Tolkien's way of depicting model in the Lord of the Rings. It's a standard archetypal image, isn't it, for evil and suffering to live in the shadow, not to enjoy the light of the sun. And yes, it's... The men of Babel build this tower in order to make a name for themselves,

to become like gods. but on their own terms. Yeah. Not on God's term. They don't climb them, as it were, the Jacob's ladder in order to reach from earth to heaven. They build their own a skyscraper. And interestingly, in that hideous strength, the villains of the peace are building a huge great tower, which would make a notable addition to the skyline of New York, Lewis says.

Really? Yeah, yeah. You live in New York City, don't you? And, you know, the canyons of the skyscrapers mean that you very rarely see the sun. Right. You'll notice I'm not in New York now, and I still don't see the sun. Thank you very much. In it's, although I know it exists even in England, but one rarely sees it.

But on faith, I perceive it. We just have a few moments left. Let's just talk, let me just ask you, what was the reception, if there was any, in 1943, to Lewis's short book, The Abolition of Man? Well, he, with customary humility, says that it had received almost no attention. But in fact, if you go back to the contemporaneous review, it was quite well, warmly received. Let me just read a couple of examples.

No summary can do justice to the fineness of Mr. Lewis's thoughts, said one British reviewer. A second called it paradoxically and shrewdly argued. A third declared it a most thought-provoking book which deserves the attention and study of all those interested in the education of the young. And in America, New York Herald Tribune said, it's an all too plausible picture of man's destiny after the concept of absolute values has gone out the window.

Well done, Mr. Lewis. That's pretty good. Now, this is, of course, before he was, as it was canceled for writing. I mean, for, I mean, he outed himself to some extent when he did the BBC broadcast that became mere Christianity. So he was not yet known as, uh, as much at that point as a Christian apologist. So it's sort of the last ability that he had, the last moment to get away with making the case for this stuff without people being able to wave it away as Christian propaganda. I'm guessing. I'm not so sure about that. I remember how, you know, deeply enmeshed the whole British culture was

and indeed still is in certain respects. in a Christian culture. You know, just recently we had the coronation of our new king, a deeply Christian ceremony, you know, right at the heart of our nation, is this sort of sacred anointing of our head of state. So even now, even in the secularized 21st century, Christianity hasn't been so thoroughly erased from our culture as some people think it has or would like it to have been

And back in the 1940s and 50s, it was even more central to the nation's identity. So, yeah, of course, Lewis invited a lot of hostility even then from people who didn't like Christianity or didn't like his version of Christianity. But he was very far from, as it were, being cancelled, I think, at any point in his life. Folks, welcome back. I'm excited we get to participate. participate again with CSI, Christian Solidarity International, in doing something extraordinarily beautiful and good, freeing slaves, literally freeing slaves and putting them into a life of freedom, setting them up in a life of freedom. So we have our friend Todd Chapman from CSI to kind

of give us the details on that. So Todd, what is involved? I mean, we're asking people to give $250. And again, folks, whatever you can give, if you can give $25 a month or many people can give $10,000. We need everybody to participate at whatever level. But the question is when CSI says, okay, $250 does this. What is this, Todd? Tell us about that. Yeah. So first of all, I want to be really clear, because this is a question that comes up every year. Well, are you, you know, buying the freedom of these slaves? Are you using some of the money that I give to, you know, to pay cash to free them? And no, we're not. We have never paid cash for any slaves. We've been doing this since 1995.

And because the concern obviously would be, well, if you're creating a market, you know, by paying, you know, these slave owners cash, there's going to take more slaves. Well, the fact of the matter is they're not taking more slaves. There are fewer Sudanese slaves than there were when we started this work 20, you know, 30 years ago. And every year, the number of them continues to decline because you give. Now, what we do do is we take some of the money that you donate and we procure a cattle vaccine because many of these slave owners are cattle ranchers and they can't get these vaccine that

they need to keep their cows alive. And so we barter, you know, a slave in exchange for the vaccine. So there's that. And so the majority of your gift actually goes to providing a fresh start for these Sudanese slaves. They're mostly women, but we do have some men as well. And now more and more we're actually able to negotiate the release of children along with their their moms who have been enslaved and slaved for a long time. And so we give them what's called. called a bag of hope. We marched them down into South Sudan, about two, 300 at a time, a few times a year, and we have a camp there. We capture all of their information that we can get from them. We take photographs, we document their story. If they know their name, and many of them don't, because

they've been held in slavery since they were young children. But we try to capture that information so that we can ultimately reunite them with our family. That's our goal. But we also have to give them the resources that need to start a new life. So they get a tent, they get some bedding, they get grains, they get a mosquito net. We give them a female goat that they can use for milk and also for breeding and fishing supplies. And so they get a whole new start of life through that bag of hope. And then, of course, all the love and care and attention and counseling, led by our pastoral staff in the community right there that we bring them back into. And so, Eric, it's so much more than, you know, just all of that stuff. It truly is setting them on a path to

freedom. And story after story, we hear from these women. They have said, I never thought I would be free. I've never known anything other than captivity my entire life. I was taken as a child or I was actually born into slavery. I never knew what it meant to be free. Didn't even know my name. It was taken from me and I was forced to convert to Islam, given a different name. And so this is literally a whole rebirth, if you will, into freedom in the name of Jesus that you're providing with your gift of $250 or whatever God lays on your heart. Well, this is what's amazing to me is that we have the ability to do something. But God doesn't force us.

And I say this over and over to people that I think in the American church, people are so focused on faith by faith. It's all about your salvation. It's not all about your salvation. That's a myopic anti-Christian view of the Christian faith. We are saved by God and then deputized now to live according to his will and to do his will. We're going to be an army of people. sold out to God's purposes.

It's not about going to church on Sunday and singing songs. That's a little piece of it. But then we have to live out our faith in every sphere. And this is a classic example. We just had an election. Well, there's nobody to vote for this month or this, you know, season. What can I do? How can I get involved?

God calls us to do many things. This is something that, by the grace of God, on this program we get to do. And I want to say, folks, nothing could be a greater Christmas present to somebody than to say, hey, dad, in your name, we all got together and we freed a slave. And here's the information on that. Trust me, as a father, nothing would touch me more than getting a gift like that. Getting, you know, a sweater I don't need or whatever gadget that's going to be in the garage in six months.

really and truly this is an opportunity to do something beautiful for God that's meaningful. This is also something we can teach our kids about the meaning of life. Tell your kids, here's what we're going to do. We're going to do for grandpa this year. We're going to all pull together and make a part of your balance and we're going to do beautiful thing. There is nothing more beautifulness. This is meaningful. And it teaches our kids and it teaches us.

us about this is the meaning of life. We get to participate in God's purposes, in working against evil. And God has given us the privilege that we get to do that. We have money. We have freedom. We have this radio program. We can talk about this. It's not oppressed. It's not suppressed speech. We get to talk about this. We get to do something. But then God doesn't force us to do it. He gives us the invitation to do it. And so, folks, I think this is just a beautiful, a beautiful opportunity. and I want everybody who's listening to participate somehow and to participate ASAP. This is really just an amazing opportunity. I can't say that enough.

What an opportunity that we get to do this. We hear about this evil and some fix it. So the phone number is 888-253-3522. 888-253-3522. The website is metaxis talk.com. You see the banner right there, metaxistalk.com. The banner's right at the top. Metaxashton.com. What an opportunity. So, and Todd, do people give monthly as well? Do people sometimes want to do that?

Yeah, absolutely. You can give monthly. You can give a one-time gift. Obviously, you know, it's $250 per slave that you free. And one of the things I love about, say, your listeners, Eric, is every year, you know, I see some of the names that have given for a number of years now. And we see people coming back and making this a part of their annual giving. And we love that. And also what we see. over time, people tend to give more and more because what you said, you know, when you participate in anything that you do in the name of God, yeah, you're bringing good in the world and you're doing, you know, you're showing God's love and transformative ways, but it also changes you. It changes our heart. That's why Jesus talked about giving and showing love. And so if you want to change the world and also I have God change you in the process, be in part, and it's not just giving

to CSI, give to his work anywhere that you feel led. But I'm just a big believer. and lover of what we do at CSI, freeing human beings and then I'm Jesus. I am with you. Freeing human beings, literally, freeing them from slavery, the website, metaxis talk.com. The banner is right there. The phone number 888-253-3522. Dial it today, call it today, give today 888-2533522, 888-253-3522. And the banner, Metaxistalk.com.

Do it. God bless you. I've got a number of things I want to share before we sign off for today. But I would remind you, first of all, of our friends at the Herzog Foundation. I've talked so much on this program about how our nation's public schools have been captured by, let's say, progressive ideologues, to put it nicely. Marxist lunatics is another term you might use. Now, this doesn't mean everybody who teaches in public schools, but so many that, if I could homeschool my kids or send them to a quality Christian school, I would absolutely do that.

So that's why we're friends with the Herzog Foundation because they make it possible for anybody to do this. If you go to their website, they have all kinds of free resources, folks, for you. If you're thinking about homeschooling, you're thinking about quality K-12 Christian education, you go to Herzogfoundation.com. That's Herzogfoundation.com. They are a tremendous resource. Take advantage of them. They're there to help.

Herzogfoundation.com. Okay, a lot of other stuff before we sign off of the day, I want to remind you again of our campaign with CSI. Very important that everybody participate. This is an amazing opportunity. Everyone can participate at some level. Everyone. You could do $5 a month.

This is freeing slaves. This is helping our friends at CSI, Christian Solidarity International, freeing slaves. It's real. It's beautiful that we get to do this. Every year we partner with them. So we're asking you to go to the website. It's metaxis talk.com. That's our radio website.

Lots of other stuff there. But if you go to Metaxotocot.com, right at the top of the page, you'll see it. If you'd prefer to call, some people prefer to do that. I will give you the phone number if you're ready. Are you ready? You're ready for the phone number? You can call it today. Here it is.

888-253-3522. 888-253-3522. 888-253-3522. Since we're talking about Christmas gifts, I want to remind you about the Socrates in the City book. Brand new book. It's called Conversations on the Examined Life. You can find it at Socratesinthe-City.com.

A great gift, trust me on this. If you give that to somebody who's a thoughtful person and they start reading it, they're going to encounter great ideas. I don't say these things lightly. It's at the heart of my whole life. You can go to SocratesintheCity.com. There's actually all this other swag, really, like the sweatshirts are gorgeous. They're just beautifully designed. A lot of fun stuff, Socratesin the city.com.

and obviously I hope that everyone will see the Bonhofer film tonight, tomorrow in the next few days. It is really crucial for the future of America that we have quality entertainment. And when a film like this comes along, I cannot say it emphatically enough, folks. A lot of prayer has gone into this film over the last 12 years. I cannot begin to tell you a lot of prayer. and miracles upon miracles to get it made. But now, of course, we have to get it out there. I mean, we have to get the word out there for people to see it.

And so many friends of mine, I said earlier today, that my friend, Jen Ellis, said, oh, I'm going to see it, you know, this weekend or haven't seen it yet. And I said, Jenna, please see it ASAP because the theaters, they're just dying to put in some garbage that'll make a little more money. And so we have to support these films. And again, this is such an excellent film. This is like when you're selling something that if you see it, you're going to be like, oh, thank goodness I saw it.

It is great. So I want to be very, very clear that it's urgent. Share it on social media, please. Churches are buying out theaters. It really is important that the film stay in theaters past this weekend. And I'll be going to be reporting on that. I'll let you know, but anything you can do to help, please don't delay. God bless you.

We'll talk to you tomorrow.