The Eric Metaxas Show - Naomi Wolf (Continued)

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

Naomi Wolf continues her conversation with Eric, and discusses her Jesus moment 

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No, go, go, go, go. Hey there, folks. Welcome to Hour 2. My guest now, and in the previous hour, is Naomi Wolf. Naomi, it's always fun to talk to you, and that's my highest compliment. Thank you. Thank you. Even when we're talking about deep, dark things. I want to talk to you about something you shared on this program about a year and a half ago, what you called your Jesus experience, because it's so interesting and it's a little complicated and because it'll ruffle all the right feathers, which I think is important.

So maybe you can reprise the experience, and then we can talk about the... Okay. What? No, it's just so scary, but I will. It's not scary. It's true. You're not Jewish. It's scary, believe me.

But I will go ahead. Well, you know, listen, here's a little secret. I won't say this on the air, but I believe Jesus may have also been Jewish. So let's just go with it. And I think Mary, probably Italian, but some theories say that she was Jewish also. So go ahead. Okay, good point. All right.

Well, I want to preface this by saying, I am Jewish and I'm still Jewish. And the reason, one reason I've been, I've kept this kind of never told this story on the air, really, before I alluded to it on your show a year and a half ago, is that I don't want to be anyone's poster child, right? I'm still Jewish. So I'm just putting that out there. But see, already we're admired because what does it even mean to be Jewish? There are atheist Jews, and there are observant. Torah believing Jews. What does it even mean when somebody says, I'm Jewish? I mean, many Jews that I know believe Jesus is Messiah, some don't. So it's like, isn't it sort of a side issue?

Not in our community, but we can leave that aside for now because it happened. And, you know, I've always been honest with my audiences and this happened. So, all right, basically 18 years ago, I was blocked. I had a writer's block, which I've never had before. I was writing a book about how important female sexuality and fertility are, interestingly, and how sacred they are and that they should not be degraded or devalued. And I couldn't write it, couldn't write it. So I was in Oregon. I was in Portland, and I decided to, I saw a sign that said, counselor,

and I thought, well, I'll just talk to a stranger. Maybe that'll get me through this. That is really wild. That's like seeing a sign that says, you know, fortunes told. And you just say, oh, just check it out. So you just wander in. You know, I was raised by hippies, but, you know, I thought, what can it hurt? Yeah.

So it was a completely neutral space, neutral room, neutral woman, nice woman, you know, nothing unusual about her, nothing unusual about anything in the context. She is a hypnotherapist, and she put me, or that's how she works as a counselor, which didn't surprise me because my mom's a past life regression therapist, so I'm used to that methodology. I know. I don't believe that people have past lives. Is that going to confuse our conversation? No.

Okay. But it's a note. My mom doesn't necessarily believe it either. She is agnostic, but the point I'm making is that I knew from her work. It could also be, her work could also be the way the subconscious tells people their truth. Okay, good. So I was open to this method at the point. So she put me in a light hypnotic state.

I'm sorry. Your mother. No, no, no, no. The counselor. Right, but the point is your mother was a past life. Regression therapist. This woman was not. Was not.

So what you did in 2006 was not what your mother did. This was just hypnotherapy. But hypnotherapy, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I respected the methodology because I've seen good results of like your subconscious has things to say. Okay. So she said you're going to imagine you're walking down a staircase. I'm going to count 10, 9, 8, 7, 6. And I saw that I was walking down a very recognizably

Jerusalem stone, ancient staircase, like Herodian staircase. I used to live in Jerusalem, that golden Jerusalem stone, you know, hand-hewn, no square edges. I mean, I don't need to get into all the details, but it's like details that my conscious mind wouldn't have known about construction before modern machines. And then she said, you're going to be facing a door. And indeed, there was a door at the bottom of these steps. And it was a rough wooden door held together with leather, not nails. Now, I just have to, I'm always interested in these little things.

It's an extraordinary thing to go to somebody and they say, okay, we're going to do some, you know, whatever. And you are suddenly, you suddenly find yourself, in fact, having this kind of vision. It's not sort of. I mean, it's pretty vivid. Yeah, it's very vivid. But I'm saying this is not, had you experienced that at other times before? Nothing like this. Okay, so this was like next level. I mean, you're experiencing something that you're saying, hey, this is, there's something here.

I mean, it seems. Well, this, remember, my conscious mind is dormant at this point. This is all my subcont, whatever. It was like language is impossible, right? Right. I felt, and I wrote this in my essay on, about this, the thing I feared most to write is the title. I felt that I had dropped down into a level of reality deeper than any reality I'd experienced before. And so at that level of

reality, everything was more real than anything I'd experienced before. But my conscious mind wasn't analyzing it. I was just experiencing it in the moment. Okay. Do you think everyone can experience stuff like this? Because I mean, I've had mystical experiences, visions, and things. It's rare. and when it's happened to me, it's vivid and it's real. Nobody could talk me out of it and say, oh, no, no, it was just in your mind. I mean, it was really, you know, it is difficult to put into words. But for you, this was not something that you had done many times before, so it must have been... No, I've meditated and I've been, you know, hypnotic methods have been used on me before.

This was not like anything I've experienced before. Okay. This wasn't that. Right. This wasn't that. Right. So I opened the door. at her direction. And I was in a room.

Again, I'm interrupting you because I want to kind of set this up. You're in something like, what, a trance? How do you describe the state? You're asking me questions I can't answer. It was like I was in a dimension. Right. That was a different dimension than my waking life. Right.

Or my sleeping life or my meditating life. Sort of like a guided dream? It wasn't guided. Well, I mean, she was guiding me down the steps. But no, it wasn't. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to do this on camera, but it wasn't a dream. It wasn't a vision. It was a reality in another reality. See, I'm glad that I interrupted because what you just said is significant. Keep going. So I opened the door, and I was in a room that was the kind of room a workshop would be in the first century, in Jerusalem.

And some of those workshops still exist to this day. So I kind of recognized it, but it was very dark, like no modern lighting. There was darkness pooling in the corners. And again, no sharp edges. And the floor was dust and dirt floor. And there was a man or a being, you know, in the room. And even though there was no light in the room, he was emanating light. And he was emanating light in a way that was exonerating.

in a way that was extraordinary because it was rays of light coming from every direction of him, you know, laterally, vertically, horizontally, and when he moved, they moved. And I understood that the rays of light, it was so beautiful.

The rays of light were alive, and I understood in this kind of way you understand in dimensions like this all at once with no words, right? That the rays of light were love, but they were also that all light, but especially its divine light, was on the spectrum of love and of sound, meaning music. It was all one spectrum.

And they shifted when he shifted. And so like when his right arm moved toward me on this table where he was seating, the rays of light moved as well. It's like halos don't do justice. It was like light coming out in every direction that was more beautiful than any light you've ever seen before. And I knew that this was Jesus. I just knew it.

As I said in my essay, the way you'd recognize your own child on a playground or the way I recognized my mother across the street on 6th Avenue. I knew that this was Jesus. There was no question. And you were not repulsed. You were attracted. Well, where I was in that reality, I was happier than I've ever been. And, you know, tears started to flow down my clothes.

eyes and I felt like I was seeing my best friend and my home and my soulmate that I, you know, lost. But, but, but that's not all. My conscious mind was freaking out. Okay. Hold on. We'll be right back. So you're putting money away, saving for the future, for retirement, for your family. You're doing what you're supposed to do, right? Well, what if I told you that your 401k IRA and other investments are probably paying for gambling, abortion, and LGBT causes? Inspire Advisors can tell you where your profits are really coming from. Do what I did. Go to InspireAdvisors.com and order your free customized impact report and find out. Inspire is a recognized leader in faith-based investing.

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career or starting your family. If worrying about the unknown leaves you uneasy, it's time to take control of your health care. Christian Healthcare Ministries, CHM, offers a budget-friendly, faith-based alternative to traditional insurance. With programs starting under $100 per month, With CHM, you can enjoy affordable health care and peace of mind while focusing on what truly matters, whether that's growing your business or spending time with your family. Visit CHministries.org slash value to enroll today and experience a better way to handle health care costs. That's CHministries.org slash value. Welcome back talking to Naomi Wolf. Naomi, what you just described is, you know, moving and very vivid.

on a number of levels, not just physically, but as you're describing it. And I think you may know this, but I think a lot of people have had experiences like this when they're in the presence of God somehow and they say, you know, I felt like I was home. I felt like I, you hear these similar things, which is one of the reasons I'm fascinated by it is because people act as though, oh, it's all subjective. It's like, but if it were utterly subjective, you wouldn't hear the same thing over and over about light and sound and love. And, you know, it's at least interesting to me. But, okay, so this is happening.

And you said, just before we went to the break, that your conscious mind was nonplussed, I guess? Oh, much worse than when I was horrified. My conscious mind was horrified because I'm Jewish. You're not, this was not the person I wanted to see. I'm sorry, it wasn't on my conscious level. Because I knew that my life would be over. I knew that, you know,

everything would be destroyed. I mean, I was like, the way I described it in my essays, my conscious mind was like a fish on a hook trying to get away. I mean, we don't have to dwell on that, but my ego, my identity, my biography was being destroyed, right? Well, because many, obviously, many Jewish people would see you as some kind of a traitor if you say, oh, I accepted Jesus or I saw Jesus.

I mean, look, there's a hilarious scene. I think it's one of the flashback scenes in Annie Hall where I think it's Annie Hall, where the Woody Allen character says he's going to be a Catholic now, and his parents are like losing their minds and they're angry and they're screaming. I mean, I don't like, this is one of the reasons I'm kind of reluctant to talk about this because Jews have a lot of good reasons for not, you know. I'm aware. for not wanting things like this to take their children or whatever.

Well, sure. Well, that's why I wanted to talk to you about it because I can relate. I get that. I mean, I get that. And a lot of people don't get that. But in any event, okay, so look, you're just describing something you experienced. So it's not like you made it happen or you chose. This is not fiction that you wrote.

This is something you're reporting what happened to you, right? I'm reporting what happened to me. But let's kind of let's bracket the Jewish issue. because I think, you know, if someone was raised, well, Muslims accept Jesus and everyone else. Not really. Yeah, they do. No, they don't. Yes, they do.

No, you're wrong. No, you're totally wrong. What do you mean to accept Jesus? They don't believe that he rose from the dead. They don't believe he was, they don't believe in the Trinity. This is a whole other conversation. They don't believe he's God. They believe he's some prophet, subordinate to Muhammad.

So this is one reason I didn't want to share this. Why? Why? Because, I mean, I, one of the things that, that, well, we don't have to get into the argument. Let's do it another time about Muslim's relationship to Jesus, because they do believe he was holy. And they believe Yahweh.

I mean, it's the same God, right? Okay, so let's just leave that aside. And let's leave aside the good cultural reasons. Jews are apprehensive about Christian messianism. Okay. All of these, like I guess what I'm trying to say, and I'm gently rebukes, Youking you a little bit.

Go ahead. Is that my whole experience was about transcending theological dogma. And I haven't, like, told the whole story, but that was the takeaway, that all that stuff doesn't matter. Okay. If there were a God. Right. I mean, I think this is the point. This is why I wanted to have you on to talk about this, because if we believe in something called truth, if God is truth, if he is love, he is simultaneously,

this and not this. He can't be everything. But he also, when you talk about transcending theological dogma, to my mind, that's the greatest appeal of Jesus is that he that's what he does.

Well, I think that's what he tried to do. But let me stay rooted in my experience, okay? Because I think you're being led astray. Yeah. Okay. Respect. I see, I think it's both. In other words, I think there are these things, there's this thing called theology and dogma, and then there's what we're talking about. And they are sometimes at war with each other. I mean, that's why I find as interesting. But when you wrote what you wrote in the, what was it called again, sorry, the title. Oh, the thing I feared most to write is the title. Yeah, I mean, there was not anything in that that I disagreed with. That's what was so fascinating to me. I thought, this is your writing truth here. This is just truth. So you can label it,

however you want to label it. Some people want to label it. And you're saying, let's not label it. But you're not really listening. How so? Because respectfully, I love you. You're my friend. The first instincts you had in the last couple of minutes when I was starting to tell you that this being, who totally changed my life, I haven't even gotten there, but his whole message was, you guys are attached to theological dogma because you don't want to do the hard work of loving each other. Right? We haven't gotten there, but that was the kind of take,

that was the essential message of what this guy told me, communicated to me. The initial reaction you had, even before I could tell you this story, was to say something a little bit critical or diminishing about Jews and their reactions to Jesus. No, that's how I experienced it. You mistook me.

But wait. And to say, no. No, no, no, Muslims don't do what you're saying. And I'm saying that doesn't matter as much as what I'm trying to tell you about matters. Okay, I'm not talking about whether it matters. I just, it's like I want to just note these things, but maybe I shouldn't have noted it. Well, well, obviously then if it's easier to just, I mean, I'm. Well, I guess what I guess, like funneling what that takeaway,

from that experience would be in this moment. It would be like, why not love your Muslim brothers and sisters? Why not love your Jewish brothers and sisters? And love them like Jesus loved them. And then all of these gradations are not as important as that. All of these distinctions. Jesus commands us to do that. He commands us to do that.

So that's what I'm saying. It's like to me, I think you're hearing me say things that I don't think I'm saying. What you said is correct. We're commanded to love. How people break that down, how people parse that. That's where it gets very complicated and confusing and divisive. Respectfully, I guess this experience I'm trying to share literally says that's an error. What?

Breaking it down and parsing it. No. Well, that's what I'm saying. How, whether one parses it. I mean, at some point, well, continue with the experience because I think when you, do that, a lot of this will sort itself out. Yeah, all right. Okay, so he was seated at a rough-hewn table, and his, he was much poorer than in, like, artistic paintings or descriptions of him. Very poor. His feet were bare in the dust,

and he was seated at a rough-hewn table, like a work table, and he was working on a beautiful, a beautiful glass or crystal object, which was like those eyes made out of glass or crystal that are still made in the old city. And it was clear that this was to be placed, this is all a metaphor, of course, but symbolic, to be placed in the foreheads of humanity. But he couldn't do it without us, we couldn't do without him, meaning this is the human project to evolve. to incorporate that divine consciousness into our own minds, you know, bodies, hearts, et cetera. So that was the first image. Then the second image was very important, and this is kind of the heart of why I've been arguing with you just now, he gestured, and again, communication was instantaneous and without

words, right, effortless. And he gestured kind of to his right, and there was a wooden and metal like human-made crucifix, crucifix, right? With the crucifix with the human body on it, right? And he said something like, it's so sad, everyone looks at my death, but they ignore my life. And then on his left, he gestured toward stages of the cross imagery, right? But rather than in classical stages of the cross images of the last 500 years in Western art, where it's like the stages of horrible pain on the way to Jesus's crucifixion. It was stages of his life, right? He's feeding the hungry. He's talking to a woman with an issue of blood and making her feel better. He's, you know, attending to a sick child. He's eating

with prostitutes and tax collectors, the most marginalized people in society. And it's like this is what people should be paying attention to, not that, right? That basically, and this is where I know people get upset, but it's like by focusing on the, like raising people from the dead, raising him from the dead, and the quote was, you know, my father can raise children for Abraham out of these stones. It's like, that's not difficult. This is difficult. For God, that is raising people from the dead. He could do it any minute he wants, right?

This is difficult for human beings to emulate this life. This is what God wants. to just, you know, love each other, feed each other, be kind, make peace, do justice, what the commandments are. And the bottom line, which is why I was arguing with you earlier, is that people, he communicated that people focus on the demonstrations of religiosity at the expense of just doing the hard work of love. We'll be right back talking to Naomi Wolf. Hey, folks, hold off on purchasing your first order from Balance of Nassau. nature because I've got some information you need to hear. If you go to balance of nature.com to buy their popular fruit and veggie supplements, a discount offer will pop up. It may say 20 or 25% off

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I mean, these are very difficult things to talk about. It's extraordinary, really, how words can't do these things justice, but we try. We have words, and we have to use words. So why did you write about this now? In other words, what is your sense? Because it's been, you said, 18 years. I will tell you, but there's one other important. takeaway. Can I be sure to cover that before our time?

Go ahead, yeah. Okay, just the other important piece of what I received or gathered, words are inadequate, is that we, we, we, we, um, there's no such thing as lying or cheating or stealing or secret adultery because everything is known, right? And if, and the only reason people do bad things is that they don't realize how important they are to God. And if they realized how important they were to God, and that God is somehow every single person is at the center of God's love, even as every other person is at the center of God's love, which we can't imagine, but God can manage.

If they understood that, they wouldn't do those things, right? That those things come from thinking one is not important to God. But also, if people understood the natural laws of the universe in which we are, our material universe, they would understand that we come from God, basically radiating light, right? Radiating love. And that gets occluded over our lifetimes as we choose bad things, faulty things, erroneous, ignorant, bad, harmful things. But what we do when we do that is we just scratch the record of our own moment.

material conditions. It's as if God's will for us is grooves that we're in like a record, like the old-fashioned records. And when we don't align our will with God's will for us, especially by what we call sin, right? Bad behavior. We just are creating conditions for our own lives that are catastrophic, right? And that if we understood that, we just wouldn't do those things because we'd want to be in harmony with God's will. And why don't we understand that? because we don't believe how centrally loved we are to God. But why wouldn't we believe that? Oh, well, that's probably a lot of psychological answers.

Bad parenting, low self-esteem, bad religion, really bad religion. How many religions say to you, you know what? God loves you absolutely centrally. You are the center of his love. He is right in you, around you, near you, cares about every single thing you do, no matter what, and you don't need a rabbi, you don't need a priest, you don't need an intermediary, you don't need anyone to help you get to the absolute center of God's love. You're there already. Who says that? No one says that. That's not true. I've experienced that. I mean, that is my experience

it, but what religions say it to me. That's my experience of genuine Christian faith. Okay, that's fair. That's fair. Genuine Christian. Because I've seen a lot of dead religion that calls itself Christian faith. And look, I believe that Jesus came, in a sense, to end religion. In other words, religion is do this and this and this and this and this and you can earn your way to God or do this and this and you'll be right with God. And Jesus came to say, I'm going to do it once and for all. And that's the meaning, that's the point of his death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead. He does it. And therefore now you and I, We don't need to.

By accepting that, we then have the ability to do it. So respectfully, and this is where Christianity and Judaism really does separate, right? They're not the same. I mean, they should be. They started out that way. They should be, you know, I believe again, but it's a longer conversation. But respectfully, that was not my experience. My experience, first of all, just to be clear.

No, I didn't say it was your experience. I'm saying it's my understanding of Christian faith. Right. And that's, I guess what I'm trying to say is that this being's communication to me was that that alone, that is not the important thing. The important thing is doing goodness every day. You're taking the words out of my mouth because what you just said, you don't realize. I mean, I just wrote a book called Religionless Christianity. It's a Bonhoeffer phrase. And it's essentially about this. In other words, I have experienced, you know, since 1988 when Jesus came into my life,

I've experienced good and bad versions and everything in between of Christian expression. And the worst of it is people who are all focused on the theology or who overstate And it's kind of funny because you get this from Luther. You're making a point, and then you make the point so strongly that you end up going over into the ditch on the other side of the road. So he says, faith, it's faith, faith, faith. Right. True. But if it is actual faith, as opposed to faith or just theological constructs, then it cannot help but be expressed in works, in love, in feeding the poor,

in everything you meant, it can't help it. That is if you actually believe God is who he says he is and loves us infinitely, no matter what we've done or who we are, if you actually believe that faith, then you will live differently. You cannot help it if you actually believe God is that God. I hear you. From a Jewish perspective, the, oh, this is so deep,

and I don't want to offend anyone. From a Jewish perspective, the idea that faith alone I mean, the idea that something, that you can be saved by believing something and not, you know, doing the commandments. But I know, but I just said that. No, you did. You did. But Luther didn't exactly. Well, honestly, this is where it goes around and around because, I mean, look, I wrote a 450-page biography of Luther.

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he called it cheap grace, because all these Lutherans are saying, it's all about grace, it's all about grace. Like, I don't need to do anything. I'm just saved by what I believe. And he said, no, know if you actually understand that it costs the death of God's son on a cross. But if you understand the meaning of this, you're going to live radically differently. So clearly you don't believe that. In other words, so if you say you're saved by faith, okay, you're saved by faith, but you don't have faith. Because if you had actual faith, you can't help but live in the way that God commands us to live. So I don't see any contradiction.

In other words, that's kind of the point of why I want to talk to you about this. Because what you wrote about, I agreed with. Right. I mean, I guess I kind of, I'm sorry, I'm kind of stuttering right now because in the Jewish lineage, this whole struggle of what is grace, what is faith, it's all, it kind of leaves me cold respectfully. It's not part of our thing at all. And I guess I want to kind of leave it to you. That's your struggle because my experience with this person, which I really want to share the last time. takeaway or two takeaways with the audience, kind of didn't deal with that except to say the following. His communication to me, or my reception, whatever language is inadequate, is people, you know, most people would rather do the bar mitzvah, tithe in church, go to confession, you know, baptize their kid, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. To avoid that people do religious and to avoid doing the love.

That's what he was communicating. You are singing my song in my key. This is exactly what I have been saying, except I don't mention bar mitzvizvah, but the point is everything you just said, to me, not just I agree with it, it is correct. In other words, that we would love to, what's the shortcut? Say this prayer, do this, do this, do this, and then you're good. And God says, no. No.

That is a cheap substitute. That is a counterfeit of what I'm asking you to do. That's exactly what this being communicated to me. That was the essence of that. There's one other thing I want to say clearly before our time is up. This being, I didn't feel that I was in the presence of God. I felt that the being with whom I was present was of God, the way that your mother's hug is of your mother.

I felt that I was in the presence of how God communicates with His. is humans. So, and then someone said, oh, that's the word. So whatever the, you know, theological, the word. Capital W. Yes. I don't, I'm not, like, relating to that. I'm just saying I did not, like, I was not in the presence of God. In my, in this experience, I was in the presence of God's loving of us. Right. Well, when Jesus was here, you know, it says he, he left his glory in heaven with Father. So this gets a little complicated, right? Yeah, but I, again, I keep saying I don't want to get drawn into the theology. You don't have to get drawn in. I'm just making a point for my audience that this is a little. People like to see it as simple, and it's not. It's a little, it is a little

complicated. Well, I guess to me it was very, very simple. No, no, no, what you're saying is simple. Right. But I'm saying, but there are other people that would, I would say be theologically hidebound. And they say, no, no, Jesus is God, period. And I would say, yes, as a Christian, I believe that, but when he was here, I don't believe. But my point, you don't have to. But what I'm saying is when he was here, he was human. When he was here, so it does become for Christians a little bit more complicated. And people who want to say like, no, no, no, Jesus is God. If you didn't believe it was God, you're wrong. And I would say that they are misunderstanding what I think you're saying. But so we're speaking from two completely different traditions, which is really

interesting, but I just want to say kind of affirmatively that to have encountered a being who was of God toward humans, which is the best grammar I can come up with, allows, I mean, I don't want to get theological, but

you know, I talked to Jonathan Kahn, who's a Jew, who is also a pastor and follows Jesus, and both of us said we're more Jewish than ever, now that we're following Yeshua. Once again, you're singing my song, because to me, I mean, the Bible says, the New Testament says that those of us who believe in Jesus were grafted in.

And in those, the whole point is worshipping the God of the Jews. That was the point. Jesus didn't come to start a new religion. He came to call everyone to the God of the Old Testament to the Jewish God. I'm in a push. Well, yes, certainly. That is correct. But also he came to call everyone to love, which is the same thing.

I mean, I guess from now on for the rest of my life, I'll always be pushing from religion toward love from this experience. Well, but you understand the only thing that I would say, and we're out of time here, but even though I agree with you, genuinely, genuinely, that can also pull us in a wrong direction. In other words, it's like when you're talking about faith, what do you mean by faith? When you're talking about love, what do you mean by love? In other words, there are people who would love what? I mean, if you're looking at the Old Testament and the New Testament, if you've got those, it doesn't pull you in the wrong direction because we have the commandments and we have the seven Noah Hyde laws.

The Ten Commandments are for Jews. The seven Noah Hyde laws are for everybody. And they tell you what to do. You know, and Jesus said the law, you know, not one jot or titul will be changed. You know, he condensed it. He made it easy, easy for everyone to understand. He welcomed the Gentiles. But we have the law.

That's what God wants. Right. Well, again, I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying that when people start talking about love, I think you have to do what you just did, actually, is say, what we mean by that is the Ten Commandments. We don't mean sleep with whoever you want to sleep with. We don't mean whatever. It actually means some things and not other things. I don't know. But Jesus didn't split those hairs either. He just said, go and sin no more. You know, he... Well, no, you referred to the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are pretty clear about that. Yeah, but they don't tell you, yes, they say don't commit adultery, you're right. Remember? Yes, I do remember. I know you do.

I'm being sarcastic. I know you remember. So I'm saying that there are really clear prescriptions. Right. And there are a lot of people who just want to wave that away. I would say, well, no, according to what you're saying and what I believe, you don't wave that away. It doesn't mean we're perfect. Yeah, but neither Christians nor Jews nor other religions often enact or

encourage or exemplify those guardrails that God gave us in the Ten Commandments or the Seven Oh, Hyde Law is the way that Jesus did. Jesus... Well, there's no doubt about that. Well, but that's what we're supposed to do. No kidding. Talking a lot about Jesus with Naomi Wolfe.

Fortunately for you, Naomi, we're out of time. Or maybe for you. No, no, we're going to... We're going to... I want to keep talking with you. But for now, we're out of time. Just a tremendous blessing that you'd be willing to have the conversation. Very grateful. Thank you. Likewise. Thank you.

Hey there, folks. I want to tell you all about the Greek crews. It's insane. We're really doing it. We're not talking about doing it. We're not thinking about doing it. We're actually doing it. It's happening. And in a minute, I'm going to give you the crazy details. But before that, did you see there was an article? Everybody should know by now that Christianity today has gone over to the dark side. Don't subscribe to it. Don't read it. And if you need proof, the other day, they'd be.

put out an article saying, saying, Christians should send their kids to public schools because it's kind of a good training. It's kind of like, send them to prison so they can get tough and learn about Christian worldview. Send them into the ocean so they can learn about sharks. Yeah, throw them in the water. So, so I'm here to tell you that no surprise Christianity today is wrong about that. And if you can, if you can, you should homeschool your kids or you should give them

quality K-12, Christ-centered education. How do you do that? I don't know. You ask. Well, I'm here to tell you our friends at the Herzog Foundation. Now, Herzog is the German word, means Duke. But Herzog Foundation, they are here to help with all this kind of stuff. And so we want you to go to Herzog Foundation.com.

That's Herzog Foundation.com. They honestly are there to help. So this is like there's no gimmick. They're there to help. They're set up to foundation, right? So they want to help you do this, whether it's homeschooling or finding quality Christian education. There's a lot of free training and services that they provide to Christian educators. They also have a podcast called The Lion, The Lion, and you can find that at Reed Lion.

That's R-A-D. readlion.com. Readlyon.com. And speaking about foundations, the Heritage Foundation, they are sponsors on this program. They are heroes doing great stuff. At the top of the list is something called Project 2025. Every time there's a conservative administration poised to come in,

and we hope by the grace of God that Trump will be that administration, the Heritage Foundation puts together something to, they call it a mandate for leadership for that incoming conservative administration to help them hit the ground running and to turn back the evil. We don't need an example of that because you've been alive under the Biden Harris administration. So they call it Project 2025. There's all kinds of stuff there. But if you want the details, you can go to 25truth.com. So to learn the truth about Project 2025, go to www.252.25.com.

Everything's there. The Heritage Foundation has put it in place. Donald Trump is not behind it, but I hope he'll get behind it if he gets in office. But the Heritage Foundation is behind it, 25truth.com. Okay, now I'm going to tell you about the crazy cruise. Are you ready? You ready? We're doing a cruise.

Look, how do we put this? Let me read. I'm going to read the official verbiage, which is in front of me. It says, I think you know by now that I'm a Texas media. We're not just committed to defining the serious problem in the American church and in our nation, but we're equally committed to encouraging the church to learn how to stand for truth today, how to make a difference, and to know that God wants us to make a difference. So, yeah, we're on a mission, right. And we're going to be spending 10 days in the Greek islands on this,

huge cruise ship next June 6th through 16th, starting off in Athens. We're calling it Hope for the Future Cruise. Athens, Thessaloniki, Ephesus, Istanbul, Istanbul, Turkey, Volos, Mekino, Santorini, Roads, and Crete. And we won't only visit and tour these amazing places, but we're going to have special sessions on board. I'm going to give talks on most of my books, and we'll have fun Q&A. And we have a lot of special guests. Chris and I are brainstorming. Who can we lure to join us to make it even more fun. So if you want to go there, go to Inspirationtravel.com slash emc. That's Inspirationtravel.com slash emc or call 844-808-2058. 844-808-2058.