The Eric Metaxas Show - Naomi Wolf - Part 3

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Naomi Wolf continues her reporting on the Pfizer documents and their connection with compliant journalists and nefarious characters -- and pointing to evil forces behind the scenes.

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. They say it's a thin line between love and hate, but we're working every day to thicken that line, or at least to make it a double or triple line. But now here's your line jumping host, Eric Mattaxas.

Alvin, what day is today? I get very, very confused. I've been listening to a lot of George Jones lately, and I get weepy, and then I laugh. I love George Jones so much. I can't stand it. Oh, my gosh. We should play some of this music on this program,

specifically white lightning, choices, sinners and saints, what's the other one? The ones that just cracked me up. It's not cold turkey. It's bone dry. Some of these songs, they're unbelievable.

He didn't sing feelings, nothing more than feelings. No, I don't believe that was George Jones. But it's a good guess. All right. Today, folks, we continue Old Yale Week. In hour one, which is to say in a few minutes, I continue my conversation with Naomi Wolf. She gets very personal and very vulnerable.

And I am really indebted to her for that. We all are because she talks a little bit about her spiritual journey. And I always want to respect my guests. I don't want to correct her or tell her where I think she's theologically mistaken or whatever. I want to honor her. You know, I could talk to her privately. But that's, it's really beautiful. tomorrow in hour one we'll play the conclusion so today you get part one of well yesterday you got two hours with

Naomi today you get hour one with Naomi Wolfe who's a very special person honestly I was just very moved by what she shared and we will play the last part tomorrow in hour one in hour two today we have our friend John Smirak and I joke around that it's old Yale week because Our first guest on Monday, James Carney, Naomi Wolf, John Smirak, and myself all went to Yale, and somehow by the grace of God, seemed to find sanity. Actually, Zmirak showed up at Yale with sanity, so we hate him. He's out of the club. But the rest of us showed up totally confused.

And I tell you, it's, anyway, it's very interesting. I want to remind people also, please share these interviews. People always say, Eric, what can I do? What can I do? You can do big things. You can do little things. I'm telling you, this platform is relatively tiny. When you think about people who have gigantic platforms, you just have to go on Twitter and see how many retweets my best tweet gets.

Like the greatest tweet, you know, maybe I'll get a thousand retweets. Normally I'm getting like 10. There are people out there who everything they're doing is getting thousands of retweets. This platform, my platform, is relatively small. But I believe that God has given this to me to speak the truth as I'm able to see the truth and to help us process what we're going through in this country and in the world. So I want to ask you to share what you can share because you each. has have a voice. Each of you has a voice. And you can share the videos of this program. Now again,

that's something you can do on your own social media, whether you're on Facebook or Twitter, wherever you are, truth social, gab, parlor, getter. Wherever you are, you can share these interviews. To get these interviews, you can either go to Rumble or we try to make it easy for you. I tell you to go to Eric Mataxis.com, sign up for my newsletter. I'll keep begging you. sign up for the newsletter, sign your friends up, get your friends to sign up, because there's just tons of stuff that is there. We try to make it easy for you. It's right in front of you.

If you get the newsletter, you get some special photographs. Albin and his wife, Anne, and Amanda Grace and her husband, Chris, and my friend Keith Jinta and his wife, Jill, and my wife, Suzanne, and my mother and my father. we were all together last Sunday at his vineyard in Bethel, Connecticut. Afterward, we went to the diner that I write about in my book, Fish Out of Water. When I was 14 years old, I got a job at a diner. I also write about it in my book Miracles.

But we went to that diner and we all had brunch, lunch, whatever it was. Albin, you had a gigantic hamburger. Oh, boy, much it's big, yeah. But that photograph, you know, we sent it out with the email. please sign up for my newsletter, email newsletter, Eric Metaxus.com. I also want to highlight the Socrates and the city event February 28th. If you're not excited about this, something's very wrong. If you can get to that event, ladies and gentlemen, we rarely do Socrates events that are explicitly Christian.

But I said a year ago when I had Eugenie Constantine on this program, I said, we've got to get her to Socrates in the city to talk about this book, The Crucifixion of the King of Glory. It's going to be a big deal event. If you can possibly get to this event, folks, please sign up. Go to Socrates in the city.com. If you can't get to the event, you can sign up for the live stream. It's like 10 bucks or something to sign up for the live stream.

And obviously you can watch it with your whole family or get a group to watch it. But if you can get to New York on that night, obviously I want to meet everybody. I love it when people come in. There are rooms at the Union League club in case somebody wants to stay overnight. It's a gorgeous club. Just being in that club is a huge privilege for us.

But that's Soxas and City February 28th. Go to Soctezen City.com and register for the February 28th event with Eugenia Constantino. It's next level. Next level, I promise you. Actually, we have a new sponsor on the program. Everybody knows about mypillow.com.

MyStore.com. Nutrametics.com. Use the code Eric. I hope you're doing that to support this program and to support these ministries, these organizations that we really believe in. But we have a new sponsor on the program, which is the Ministry of Tourism at Israel. I went to Israel a few years ago. I don't have time to go into it. But if you can conceivably go, you owe it to yourself to visit the Holy Land. The website is holyland. dot travel. That's holyland dot Israel. Travel. And we're going to be talking about that more in the weeks and months

ahead. When I wrote my book Is Atheism Dead? I just went crazy thinking I cannot wait to get to Israel and to see what I'm writing about in my book is Atheism Dead. The middle part's all about archaeology. I cannot wait to get back there

to visit some of the scenes that I write about in is atheism dead. I want to see these places. I'm drooling thinking of it. So holyland.israel. Travel. And Albin, literally today, today's Wednesday. So today is literally the last day that we're doing our emergency appeal.

Some of you have been generous. Most of you have not yet given. This is an emergency appeal. people are suffering horribly in Turkey and Syria. The earthquake there was about as devastating as it gets. The numbers, I mean, when you're talking about 40,000 people dead, I want you to try to picture that for a second. It doesn't get more horrible.

These are children, women, old people. The devastation is unbelievable. the call for funds is urgent. It is right now. That's why today's the last day. Because in a week and two weeks, you've got to do this right now. So today's the final day.

You can go to metaxis talk.com. Please, please, please go there. You'll see the banner to help Turkey in Syria. Give anything you can give folks. We can all give something a little bit. If you prefer it instead of going to metaxis.com, you want to call. Or you can go to, you can text right now. text the word Eric to 911-9-9-9.

That's, again, text the keyword Eric to 911-99. It opens up a link. That's the keyword Eric to 911-999. I've said it, and I'll say it again, anybody who gives $10,000, I'd be my privilege to have dinner with you. But if you give $5, you're doing God's work. Here's the phone number for anybody who wants to call. Please call 855-863-4673, 855-865-863-4673.

Coming up, a very big deal conversation with one of my heroes, Naomi Wolf. After that, John Zmirak, tomorrow, more with Naomi. Stick around. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Biden administration has caused a financial crisis and they have no clue how to fix it. Oil prices have skyrocketed, and when oil prices go up, the cost of transportation and shipping spikes, leading the prices of goods to rise. And when we're already seeing record inflation, that's the last thing we need.

Our economy is in trouble, and you need to take steps to protect yourself. If all your money is tied up in stocks, bonds, and traditional markets, you are vulnerable. Gold is one of the best ways to protect your retirement. No matter what happens, you own your gold. It is real. It is physical. It's always been valuable since the dawn of time. Legacy Precious Metals is the company I trust for investing in gold.

They can help you roll your retirement account into a gold-backed IRA where you still own the physical gold. They can also ship gold and precious metals safely and securely to your house. Call Legacy at 866-5281903 or visit them online at LegacyPMinvestments.com. Thanks to your support, Patriot Mobile has emerged as one of the leaders in the parallel economy and they have big news. Patriot Mobile now offers service with all three major networks. This means if you're with the big three and like the service but hate their values, you can access them with Patriot Mobile.

They also offer a performance guarantee. If you're not happy with your coverage, you can switch between the three major carriers for free. Patriot Mobile, America's only Christian conservative wireless provider, offers nationwide coverage on the best 4G and 5G networks. So you get the same great service while supporting a company. company that fights to preserve our God-given rights and freedoms. This year, this new year, resolve to stop supporting companies that don't align with your values. Their 100% U.S.-based

customer service team makes switching easy. Just go to patriotmobile.com slash Eric, Patriotmobile.com slash Eric or call them at 878 Patriot. Get free activation today with the offer code Eric. Hey, folks, welcome back. It's old Yale week on the Eric Metaxis show. All the old gang. Actually, there's about like nine of us from Yale from that decade period who, who believe in kooky stuff like God and truth, you know, all that stuff that Yale used to believe in, then kick to the curb, looks at Veritas and all that. And so today I'm talking to Naomi Wolf, who was in my class at Yale. When did we graduate? Like about 20 years ago, I think. I'm pretty sure it's about 20 years ago. And we covered a lot in the last.

last program talking about, I want people just to know that you have done some really big stuff, Naomi. There's no way around it. We're talking about uncovering, how did you put it? Let's use your words when you were talking about what's at the heart of the Pfizer documents. You call it the greatest, what in history? The greatest crime against humanity ever. The greatest crime against humanity ever.

You know that narrow category. of crimes against humanity, this is the greatest of them. It's practically incomprehensible. And in order to comprehend it, the reason so many people of our class, I don't mean our class at Yale, but I mean of our ilk, you know, the elites who are in places like Manhattan or whatever went to Ivy schools, the reason they, I think, can't deal with it is because it's out of their categories. They just have to believe that, I want to do.

I want my kid to go to a nice school, and I want my kid to go to good college, and I've had this nice life. And the idea of dealing with something like evil or of, you know, the wickedness of the Chinese Communist Party willing to do things that are just, there's no other word besides evil. It's horrific. So they look the other way. And in history, people have looked the other way and have allowed terrible things to happen. But it's happening now, and you've been talking about it, and you've been heroic. and it thrills me. And so you've recently published War Room, Daily Cloud,

Pfizer documents, analysis, reports, which sums up what we talked about in the last program. But I want to talk about, I said at the end of the last program that my hope is in the God of the Bible, specifically in the Messiah of the Jews, Yeshua-Mashiyah, Jesus. There's no doubt in my mind of experience. innumerable miracles and know innumerable people who've experienced far more dramatic miracles than I have, that it's real and that it's true and that the God of the Bible is real.

And it's because of that that I know I'm commanded to have hope in the midst of the bleakest darkness and I'm commanded to fight on in the midst of seemingly overwhelming odds. And so when last we spoke, you were talking about, about your conclusion that we've given ourselves over to evil, that we've turned away from God and to use the phrase that, I don't know if it was you, I don't know how to, but in the Old Testament, where the people of Israel turn away from the one true God and they go hoaring after other gods, who are in fact gigantic demonic powers.

Right, right. And we kind of see what happens and so on and so forth. But it's a big deal for someone like you to be willing to talk about things like that because, you know, our class of people, we're not supposed to talk about stuff like that. We avoid that.

Well, we certainly aren't, but, you know, I don't give you. of these people you describe a past because they may have looked away but they also participated in very great evil. I mean, I'm here in a city, a city New York, which it reached its apotheosis

of, you know, world dominance culturally because it opened its arms to people without discrimination for the most part and or it kind of did away with discrimination faster than other parts of the country.

And these same people created a two-tier society that made me eat in the street like an animal for the last two years and went along with it. I mean, I was in Stuyvesant Heights, which knows all about discrimination. There are still signs up saying, you know, you can't enter this place if you're not vaccinated. So I don't give these people a pass. Oh, no, no, no, no. Nobody's giving anybody a pass. I'm being sarcastic because it's the only way I can deal with the horror of it. Because I've been, look, when I had my faith experience, my Jesus experience in the summer of 1988, I lost friends like crazy almost to me. Oh, my gosh, absolutely, because they just thought you've gone nuts.

You're insane. And I thought, this is a weird world in which we live. We live in a world where everyone pretends that what's true is not true and what's not true is true. And I've just kind of crossed over, you know, I've gone through the looking glass. I've realized that the God of the Bible is real. and everyone I know thinks that people who take that seriously are crazy, so now what do I do? Right. And that's just part of it.

That's just, you know, that's just the initial piece is believing in the God of the Bible, but then everything that follows from that is true. And we live in a world where the cultural elites, you know, with whom we've been friends over the decades, that they don't acknowledge that reality, and they think that people who do, they try to, to deal with it at arm's length. I mean, it's okay to go to a wedding in a church, or it's okay to, but to take it really seriously, that's for the jugheads who have, you know,

they have to cling to their guns and their Bibles because they're stupid and, you know. And so that's kind of where you start, you know, is acknowledging that, well, gosh, okay, I think God might be real. I know God is real, and then what do I do? And so what we're seeing now, the outworking of evil in all these different ways, it's only possible to process that really, if you understand the concepts of good and evil,

if you understand that historically we have had unbelievable evil in history. And it's stupid for people not to acknowledge that when the Holocaust happened 10 minutes ago. This is not a thousand years ago. Right. I agree with you. I mean, God, where to begin? you're definitely right that it's a class bias of the post-war period that there is something grimy or shameful about having a faith practice in your life, you know, outside of very constricted circumstances

like a bar mitzvah or, you know, but that is a departure. Intellectuals and even, you know, the bourgeoisie, even the aristocrats, up through the 19th century in Britain and America. You know, Whitman had deep faith. Darwin had deep faith. Emily Dickinson had deep faith. I mean, all of these people were actively wrestling. You know, the great novelists were people of faith.

Dostoevsky, you know, like was a mystic. Jane Austen. Yeah. I mean, it was just assumed that at the center of their lives, Matthew Arnold, I mean, I could go on and on and on. I would argue Oscar Wilde. Totally, totally. There's an amazing book by Joseph Pierce.

I've had him on this program. And his biography of Oscar Wilde, there is zero doubt that Oscar Wilde was absolutely Christian and profoundly. And in other words, where that ends up, I mean, he's obviously broken and it's a mess. But the idea that he's presented as some pure libertine, bon vivant, at war with the way. It's like, no, that's a narrative that's not really true. I don't mean to get into Oscar Wilde, but just because. I know that you're familiar with that, the world in which he lived. But you're right, this has been a process.

Well, and now that I'm looking back and looking at the influence of, like, straight up Marxism, which I thought was like, oh, Red's under the bed. These people are, you know, crazy, you know, like they're red baiting. They're, you know, hunting down people of conscience. Now I actually am persuaded that the West and the United States has been undefiated. specifically has been under attack, like maybe since early, maybe since the early 20th century. No, for sure. You know, by Marxists, and they said they would, right?

They said they would. But we were propagandized. We were trained up to laugh at anyone who brought that up. But I think where I'm going with that is I now think that that kind of rabid secularism and mockery of religion, it's not organic to American culture. I think it may have been, like, put into our universities, you know, the way that rabid versions of feminism are put into our universities, rabid versions now of, you know, critiques of capitalism are put into our universities by our adversaries. No, there's no doubt about that. There's only the question of the details. But, I mean, listen, there hasn't been humanity since the dawn of time has been religious in one way or the other. So this second to last book is called, is atheism dead.

And I realized in writing that the evidence for God is just totally overwhelming. Like it's preposterously overwhelming. And then when you now look at atheism for what it is, you realize that is intellectually impossible. Like the idea that there's no God and there's no meaning. It's just a joke. And so then you think, so how have we been persuading? to live secularly as though that narrative of God or whatever, it's passe, and we can live without God.

It really makes no sense on any level. Oops, we're out of time in this segment. So I'll let Naomi get a word in edgewise maybe in the next segment. We'll be right back. Tell me why Relief Factor is so successful at lowering or eliminating pain. I'm often asked that question just the other night. I was asked that question, well, the owners of Relief Factor tell me they believe our bodies were designed to heal. That's right, designed to heal, and I agree with them. And the doctors who formulated relief factor for them selected the four best ingredients, yes, 100% drug-free ingredients, and each one of them helps your body deal with inflammation. Each of the four ingredients deals with inflammation from a different metabolic pathway. That's the point. So approaching from four different angles may be why

so many people find such wonderful relief. If you've got back pain, shoulder, neck, hip, knee, or foot pain from exercise or just getting older, you should order the three-week quick start discounted to only 1995 to see if it'll work for you. It has worked for about 70% of the half a million people who've tried it and have ordered more on one of them. Go to Relieffactor.com or call 800 for relief to find out about this offer. Feel the difference. My Pillow is excited to bring you their biggest betting sale ever. Get the Giza Dream bed sheets for as low as 2998, a set of pillowcases for only 998 and rejuvenate your bed with a my pillow mattress topper for as low as 9999. They also have blankets in a variety of sizes, colors, and styles.

They even have blankets for your pets, get duvets, duvets, downcomfitors, body pillars, bolster pillows, and so much more. All the biggest discounts of the year are happening right now, so don't miss out. They're also extending their money back guarantee for Christmas until March 1, 2023, making them the perfect gifts for your friends, your family, and everyone you know. Pillow.com and use promo code Eric or call 1-800-978-3057 and you'll get huge discounts on all my pillow betting products including the Giza Dream Bedsheets for as low as 2998 and get all your shopping done now while quantities last again use code Eric and save mypillow.com. Hey folks, I'm talking to Naomi Wolf and you're not.

Naomi, you were just saying that being people of faith, That was where you were saying that the enemies of faith kind of came into culture. We don't know how and when and the details. But there's little doubt, if I'm following what you're saying, that did happen early in the 20th century. And I think I just want to be clear, when we're talking about Marxism, whether it's economic Marxism or Catholic or cultural Marxism, it is fundamentally atheistic. Totally. Well, stronger than atheistic, almost anti-theistic.

Well, I guess that's what atheistic is. Well, I've come to conclude that atheistic is anti-theistic, which is, I will go further, diabolical. Diabolical. Exactly. I mean, look, we have to be really careful, I still think, right? Because it's such a slippery slope from talking. you know, opening the door to discussions about faith to the imposition of a single sect as the state religion.

And the genius of this nation and our founding fathers is that they totally devoted this country to God, but they said you were free to worship whomever you liked. And so religious minorities, you know, are afraid of fanatical Christians make it impossible for us to worship or giving a second-class status in America. So that is one lure of secularism, right, that no one gets to be the established religion or will all be safe, will all be equally safe from someone else's God.

But they're establishing their own religion of... Totally. That's the irony is you can't, it doesn't, you know... But I guess the reason I'd like to have a reinvigorated conversation about faith across faiths in America and from even secular to religious is that I think we all need reassurance that just because I'm talking to about God doesn't mean you're going to force me to baptize my child. Okay, but see, this is the point.

Even the fact that you have to mention that caveat is the insane world in which we live. I don't know anybody. Well, let me say, no, no, no. Inquisition. Well, no, but that's the point. Like, we all can go down the list. But, like, I don't know. anyone I know at this point who takes his faith very seriously is the enemy of theocracy

or of forcing faith. In other words, that to me is the boogeyman that's constantly lifted up as though it's there. It's imminent. And I think where, to my mind, the only thing that's being forced would be secularism or people of faith are being targeted for their faith. But what you might have feared in previous generations rightly. I don't see that, but it's constantly mentioned as though it's a thing. Well, I think if this country is ever going to come together again and have conversations that makes sense, I hope that the right, including the religious right, will understand that some of the views that I've heard people I otherwise really respect about like gay people

or trans people are, do seem like imposing their, their, faith beliefs onto people, you know, whose private lives are no business of anyone else. And the same thing is true, like what women really feared on the left would happen with people of faith wanting to end abortion, which I really respect that they don't want abortion. But, you know, that did happen. The loss of Roe v. Wade is very distressing to many, many women who feel like that is an example of people of faith taking their views about abortion rights and imposing them on someone else's body. So I know these are very complex, difficult questions, but I do sometimes hear people

on the conservative side of the aisle not be, you know, open, respectful, ecumenical about those beliefs. Well, that's the question, of course, is where do you go? In other words, what I feared rightly, I think, with this idea that we can have same-sex marriage was that it's not about people getting to do what they want. They're now going to try to impose this on people who don't agree with it, right? They're going to say, you know, shut up and bake the cake. And to me, in America, you have to say,

if I go to a Jewish baker and I say, I want you to bake a cake, we're going to have a kill the Jews party, and I want you to get, and shut up and bake the cake, and that's your job. In America, the baker gets to say, I can't go along with that. I mean, most people would agree with you. Well, I know, but what I'm saying is that you have shrill voices on both sides that make it sound like it's an either-or, like we can't live respectfully together.

And I don't, I think most thoughtful people on the faith side that I know get this. And so to me, the idea that there are people trying to impose the equivalent of Sharia law, I don't really see that. I don't worry about that because it just doesn't seem like a thing to me. It seems so minority that the people that I know would condemn it. Right. I hope you're right. I mean, I have had one or two conversations with most of my experiences with religious

conservative podcasters or interviewers have been surprisingly wonderful, given that I come from the left and didn't expect it to be so wonderful. But there have been a couple who have been very judgmental about women believing they need abortions, very judgmental about the circumstances in which women get pregnant, how women should live their lives sexually. And, you know, I just think we're not going to understand each other, be able to come together unless we can talk those issues through, ideally in a not judgmental way. By the same token, you know, the stereotypes on the left that I hear of people like you. I mean, people are so mad at me on the left for even talking to Steve Banner or Tucker Carlson. He'll be mad at me for talking to you. Luckily, we're going to go to a break so they can't be

mad at you from here on until we get to the next segment. We'll be right back. With the overturn of Roe v. Wade, lots of companies are coming out saying they'll pay for employee abortion travel and expenses. Most of you've heard about some of these companies. You've just decided to stop shopping or doing business there, but did you know that you most likely own stock in those companies through your 401ks, IRAs, and other investment accounts? Folks, this is a huge problem, and we need to do something about this to send a message to Wall Street through our investments. You need to go to inspireadvisors.com and get a free inspire impact report. This biblical investment analysis will educate you on what's really in your

investment accounts, like companies paying for abortion travel. You need to go to inspireadvisors. com slash Eric to connect with an Inspire Advisors Financial Professional who can run your report and help remove companies paying for abortion travel today. Go to inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. That's inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. Advisory services are offered through Inspire Advisors LLC, a registered investment advisor with the SEC. Hey folks, welcome back talking to Naomi Wolf.

Naomi complete what you were saying. Yeah, no, I was just saying. heavy point. Like our country has been bifurcated, especially no, you know, never more than in the last two years culturally. And we never really encounter each other. And lockdowns exacerbated that because we were all just in the echo chamber of the algorithm. But I was saying just like I think people on the right don't really understand some legitimate fears of people on the left. The left is being bombarded with stereotypes that everyone on the right, or certainly people have faith are racist, transphobic, homophobic, misogynists. And in my experience, that's not true.

So I guess I'm just saying, I think it's really important somehow to initiate conversations again, ideally in person, where left and right, conservative and secular, get to actually talk to each other respectfully again because we're being made bogie men and women out of each other, at each other. It's like Plato's Cave. Right. So you and I should sit down someday and have a conversation. but not now. We are having a conversation. Do you ever talk about your own faith journey or if you have had a faith journey?

Well, not that much. And I did confess to you before the camera started rolling that I had, I have, I had an important experience that I'd never talk about. And I guess I just have to talk about it because I think that we need to, you know, as I've been saying for some months, we are kind of at a spiritual abyss. I think the like of which humanity has never faced before, in which, like, not every species survives, you know? Like, God could really be at this point where it's like, I really loved you. You were a really great species, but you've broken my heart over and over and over.

I'm going to move on now, you know. I don't know. I don't know that there are other species waiting in the wings. We're made in his image. I think this is about it. But I understand your point. No, we are made in his image, but anything's possible. Look, a couple of things really shaped my sense of how serious this moment is.

Okay. Once I had a dream in which I was just shown this completely empty dimension, and it was just completely, it wasn't like hellfire, there weren't like demons and pitchforks. It was just, God was gone. This is recently or a long time ago? It was just a nighttime dream, a long time ago. But it really stayed with me because the point is I realized, and it was so sad, and I realized that everything around us, you know, that we take as ours, right, leaves and babies and food and animals and life and, you know, celebration and the sky and the stars, like everything. Like, it's all there in Genesis, right?

God gave us this. God gave us this. God gave us this. And we kind of ignore Genesis. But that's actually literally true, you know, that it's all God and it's all God's gift. And this is what it looks like when God withdraws. It looks like there's not, there's just, it's gone. It's incomprehensible bleakness. Exactly. And so I guess I see that happening right now that we've been scampering along going, having babies, that's us. You know, falling in love, that's us.

You know, lifestyle choices, that's us. And it's all a gift from God. And we just like took it for granted, took it for granted, set ourselves up as God's, took technology as a God, took materialism as a God. And I do also read the Old Testament as one, like, luckily I'm not a theologian and luckily I'm not a rabbi or a priest. Luckily, I'm a literary critic. I mean, luckily for me, because I read the Old Testament as a novel in the New Testament too. And so, but what you get there is a story of, it's a love story that's unrequited in which the suitor is always being abused by his beloved, right? The children of Israel, you know, and then

when Jesus came, totally abused. But like, again and again, God is like, I just want a relationship with you. You know, I just want to love you. I want us to love each other. I have 10 rules, right? They're pretty easy. It's not a lot. Just, you know, this, this, this, just you can do it. And over and over again, we abuse, we abuse, we abuse, we take for granted, we profane, we profane, we, you know, sacrifice our children. We, you know, do horrible things sexually. And we reject that love, right? And we, and so it's like an abused relationship.

And so I feel like God is finally saying, you know what? I'm not, like, I'm just not that into you. You know, I'm like, I'm, well, right? The way the Bible ends, of course, is it's both of these things, right? That ultimately there's judgment. But what's beautiful is, is that it's this long story where God is preparing his bride, which is to say what we Christians call the body of Christ,

that we are his bride and that he is preparing us for this ultimate union with him, which is the marriage supper of the lamb. It's this beautiful, beautiful, unspeakably beautiful ending, but not with a lot of this ugly stuff beforehand. So it's both. In other words, I don't think that those who turn their backs on God, ultimately God says to them, okay, thy will be done. I can give you over to yourselves, and what that looks like is horrifying.

But I believe ultimately, and again, depends what I mean by ultimately, but that God does prepare a people for himself, that it is not ultimately... We have to consent, you know? Well, no, there's no question about that. But I know many people who consent, many people who are in repentance before God, who are calling others to repentance before God. So I don't know, think that all of humanity will repent. I wish that all of humanity would.

But so, you know, those are the details. But I'm, and where we go from here, I don't. know. But I mean, it's funny because you talk about the Bible from the position of being literary critic, but you don't take it, you're not just reading it as a novel. You're taking it seriously. God is real. And somehow, at some point that Penny seems to have dropped for you, but I don't know how. No, I'm happy to share the other thing that I never talk about. I just want to say reading it as a literary critic doesn't mean it's not real. No, right. I'm saying that's one level, but I'm saying you clearly read it also as more than a narrative.

Well, I guess we could get into a really deep question about what is storytelling, right? I think it's God's novel, right? I mean, it's like I see the stories that are told being incredibly important as stories. You know, I think that's how God tried to communicate with us. And then I might as well say it, this is going to be changed my life, but I do feel like God tried to talk to us, tried to talk to us. We didn't get it. We didn't get it. And then he's like, okay, I'll send Jesus. Right. And, you know, because that is so literal. You can't be able to crazy. I agree with everything you just said. I know how you could get there. I'm Jewish. Lucky for you. Well, you know, Jesus, I believe, was also Jewish. Although we know Mary was Italian.

We'll be right back. Folks, welcome back talking to Naomi Wolf. Naomi, what you said was unintentionally funny to me the way you said it. It's like God said, I've had. I've had. had it now, I'm going to send Jesus. Well, in a way, that's exactly correct. I mean, as I understand the scripture. In fact, Jesus tells a parable about the somebody has a property in a faraway land and he sends a steward and they kill the steward and he sends another steward. And then he says, finally, I'm going to send my son. And he sends his son and they kill the son. And, you know, it's like clearly the story of Jesus that God sends his son. And you talk about, heartbreakingly beautiful. He sends his son to die. But, you know, as a Christian, I see that as,

on the one hand, horrifying and tragic and on the other hand, the most beautiful thing imaginable because he rises from the dead and makes a way for us all to follow him to his father's home in heaven, which is, you know, that's beautiful. That's not just, boy, God is angry. Now he's going to send his son down. you know, to, I don't know. I'm not sure how you're processing what I'm saying. No, I understand what you're saying because I'm familiar with Christianity. Oh, stop. But I guess I'm not sure, like I struggle here, right, because I am Jewish, right?

And yet, the thing that I don't talk about in public, but I feel like I kind of have to start talking about it is that I also, like you, I didn't have the same experience. of Jesus that you had, but I did have an experience that I understand as of Jesus, being of Jesus. And not in a Christian way, not in a theological way. I'm not a Christian. And I'm starting with all these caveats because I don't want to be a poster girl for, you know, there's like an industry that grabs Jewish people who, you know, tiptoe near this. And I don't want to, that's not what I'm doing. Yeah. But I did, you know, have that experience and it did change my life. And because of what I learned from it. That's why I'm so scared right now that we are behaving so badly because it just manifested that nothing, nothing's lost, right? Like everything we do, every moral choice we make

is part of our reality forever. Not in a bad way. It's just that's the dimension that we inhabit is a moral dimension in which we're accountable, you know, and. But there's repentance and forgiveness. Oh, totally. I didn't, it was a very brief experience. I didn't get all the, all the details. But, but I mean, I guess what I, it's very hard to describe, but what I did experience, well, first, that human beings can be perfect.

You know, human beings can aspire to, like, perfect love. Okay, I'm missing something. You said you had an experience some years ago with Jesus, so a mystical experience. Well, no, see, this is what I was afraid of. I wouldn't call, I was, I was, it wasn't like a vision. It was like, it was just, I, I, maybe I should save the details and write about them and then come back and talk about them because it's so easy to go astray. But basically someone, you know, I was just meditating in a context of. trying to break through a writer's block. And then I was taken by the person who was like helping me with my writer's block. Oh, imagine going down some stairs. And so I imagine. And then I opened the door. And there was a person that I recognized as Jesus. You know, like inside of me, inside of everyone, inside of consciousness. And when roughly did this happen? This is not very recently. No, this would have been 2011. Yeah.

2011. All right, well, we're at the end of a segment. We will continue talking to Naomi Wolf. Don't go away.