The Eric Metaxas Show - Nathan Finochio & Chris Palmer

Episode Date: August 18, 2023

Nathan Finochio & Chris Palmer share their book "Theos Starter Pack: Toward a Recovery of Essential Christianity".

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m. Investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Ladies and gentlemen, are you ready to listen to a man of grace, sophistication, integrity, and whimsy? Well, so are we. But until such a man shows up, Please welcome Eric Mat, Texas. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the program. A big part of the reason I do this program is to introduce you, my audience, to people that I know and like.

And today, unfortunately, I don't have anybody like that in the studio. I'm sitting here with Nathan Finocchio and Chris Palmer, and they're the best I could do on short notice. But seriously, guys, you're... You're tough to sum up, and my favorite people are tough to sum up. How do you describe yourselves rather than have me try to do it? Nathan, why don't we start with you? Yeah, so I'd like to describe myself as a genius. Yeah.

One of the better-looking people on the planet. Right. Adored by the Holy Trinity. An Adonis, loved by God. Yes. Outwardly disheveled, but that's just an act. act. That's an act? Yeah. Okay.

All right. So he's not going to be serious. Chris, how about if you tell me a little bit about Nathan before you tell me about yourself? Both of you, okay, you've founded something called Theos, You, and Theos Seminary. Yeah. Okay. So what are your backgrounds that you decided to do that? And what is Theos, you, and Theos Seminary? Yeah, fair. I'll start. So I was homeschooled. My dad's a pastor. I came to New York.

I was here for eight years. I was a part of a church called Hillsong, New York City. And when I was at Hillsong, I found that there were a lot of our staff and just a lot of people in our church that didn't have any theological training. And they didn't know that adultery is wrong, for example, according to the biblical model. Yeah, for example. Stuff like that. So biblical training and things. theological training, you noticed this is an issue for us.

Yeah, yeah. And it's not just an issue. It's not just an issue for, like, Hillsong, I think, is a microcosm of the greater evangelical church. Correct. Where you have a lot of staff who are carrying services on weekends, and they've never read, they're not, they don't even know who Wayne Grudham might be. So, so all that to say, I thought, hey, I could help. And I, I, I, I took a number of courses that I, while I was at Hillsong, New York City, I was teaching what we called Evening College on Monday nights. And we'd have about 300 kids who had never darkened the doors of a church. And they'd come in and I would teach for seven weeks, two hours every Monday night, essentially distilled Bible college courses. So I'd teach Romans, Hebrews, Old Testament.

You understand it kills me that I was living in New York while this was happening and I didn't know this was happening. This was happening on third and 22nd. It's sickening to me. Yeah. No, but I mean, it's seriously, like the fact, now that I know you a little bit, the fact that you were doing this and I, and it wasn't on my radar, is very upsetting to me. But we'll put that aside. Yeah. So go ahead.

So, yeah, did that for four years. And then I left to New York before, you know, the proverbial crap hit the fan. And I moved to California. And while I was there, I was just thinking. I want to put these on lines so that people could, you know, so that people could pay for the price of Netflix, they could access

theological education. That is conservative, theologically. So, you know, and I would describe that as Nicene Christianity. Christianity that's not departed from, from,

Chesterton said that tradition is the democracy of the dead. And so the historical Christianity, the traditional, Christianity that was passed down to us by the apostles. The faith as delivered to the saints.

Yes. So this is what we call actual Christianity. Right. As opposed to like wokee, pseudo-Christianity. Christianity that I make up, you know, Christianity that sounds good to me. Right. You know, people, our churches are full of spiritualists, people who project onto God and tell God what he should be like.

And I'm not interested in creating God after my own image. I want to know the God of the Bible. And so that's what we teach at the house you is we teach like what it's it's got to kind of pass through the historical marker and then obviously the nexatical marker. Chris is like a dying-in-the-will Pentecostal scholar. I never heard of that. Is there such a thing? It's a panacostal scholar. It's a new thing.

It's a new thing. I'm a pseudo-intellectual and basically Pentecostal, although I would never say that publicly ever. But that's very interesting. So where did you grow up? Yeah, so I grew up in Detroit, Michigan, and when I found Nathan, I was at an interesting place because I was teaching, I was worked two years into my PhD, and I was teaching at a seminary, prominent seminary. And the problem that I was finding is that seminary education wasn't innovating, and it wasn't preparing its students for the conversations and dynamics of theology that were taking place online. So I felt that there had to be a re-innovation of the theological model to be able to equip. people for what was presenting itself in online spaces, such as the woke type stuff we're talking

about. And nobody was at the forefront of theological innovation. And I was at this place as a professor where I'm feeling we're behind the way that we're teaching students in our classroom. And then with the pandemic and COVID taking place and everything moving to an online model. Give them perhaps the more common parlance, the thought that came into your head when you came across us on love. Okay. So there was... Yeah, speak English. Okay. One of the models I was most impressed with was bar stool sports. The model. Barstool sports? The model.

I'm not familiar with that, but go ahead. Barstool sports essentially disrupted sports because it was taking sports away from the suits like ESPN and the big networks and putting it back into the guy who sat at the stool in the bar and just wanted to talk sports without all of the policy and without all of the things red tape around it. And so the way that they modeled their online presentation of sports was very innovative. And I felt that there needed to be a theological version of that. And that's when Thios U started to. So Thaiso now, if people want to find TheosU online, where do they go? So if you're on social media, Thausu University, like on Instagram, et cetera, Theosu.com.

C.A. C. Yeah, C. because I was Canadian. That's correct. You're Canadian? I am. Get out.

I know. I will never. No, seriously, I didn't know that you were Canadian. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the many great features about me. Yeah. You and William Shatner.

That's right. So, okay, so. And Jordan Peterson. There's more than a, there's more than a few wonderful, wonderful Canadians. The great one. Martin Short, perhaps the greatest. But so you created this thing. called Thaos you. Obviously,

Thaos means God in Greek. So you describe it online as not woke. Like the fact that we have to do that in this day and age, but I think it's wonderful that you say that, because it's kind of, kind of, it's unbelievably important that we're clear, that we're not going to be woke, that we're going to be clear about what the Bible says

and what is true, and we're not going to apologize for it because it's beautiful. So my three essential, are we're theologically conservative you know in the ancient history

or historical Christian orthodoxy is how I'd put it and then number two we're politically conservative and we're not just unapologetic about it I think that every school in America

just about they are openly politically left or progressive and they embrace those values and so we embrace the values of political conservatism No, I'm a... Because you believe they're actually true.

Not just because it's your tribe. Not only that, but if you read through church history, these guys are not progressives politically. Polycarp was not a liberal. Read St. Augustine's City of God. It's a pretty conservative, you know, estimation of church and government and politics, et cetera. So all that to say, and then finally,

we are unapologetically charismatic. believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And so that's one of our, those are our distinctives. So you wouldn't describe yourselves as pinched and reformed? Well, half of our faculty are reformed. Okay. But they all believe in the gifts of the, they're not cessationists. Interesting.

Interesting you're willing to go there. Yeah. It's why I like you guys so much. Okay, so Theos University, there's a book now called Theos Starter Pack. We've got to talk about the book, Theos. Starter Pack. When we come back, we'll talk about Theos Starter Pack toward a recovery of Essential Christianity with Chris Palmer and Nathan Finocchio. We're doing a campaign for food for the poor. Actually, I take that back. It begins today.

Monday, July 31st. People who listen to this program know that we partner with Food for the Poor. They are total heroes. Food for the Poor. Food for the Poor. steps up because there is always, there are always hurricanes flooding other natural disasters at this time of year. So, uh, because of poverty or collapsed infrastructure in a lot of these countries, by the way, in case you didn't know, America's an amazing country, these other countries do not have a lot of infrastructure. So we need to step up, those of us, uh, who have the ability to step up. I want to encourage you to go to metaxis talk.com and give what you can. Let's get a good start. Go to metaxis talk.com. Do what you can. Uh, or just,

text Eric to 911-999. Please do this. Text Eric to 911-999 or phone [phone], Hope, 844-863 Hope. Legacy precious metals has a revolutionary new online platform that allows you to invest in real gold and silver online. In a few easy steps, you can open an account online, select your medals of choice, and choose to have them stored in a vault or ship to your door. of access to a dashboard where you can track your portfolio growth in real time anytime. You'll see transparent pricing on each coin and bar. This puts you in complete control of your money. The platform is free to sign up for.

Visit legacy pminvestments.com and open your account and see this new investing platform for yourself. Gold can hedge against inflation and against the volatile stock market. A true diversified portfolio isn't just more stocks and bonds, but different asset classes. This new platform allows you to make investments in gold and silver, no matter how small or large, with a few clicks. Visit legacy pminvestments.com to get started. You're going to love this free new tool that they've added. Please go check it out today. That's legacy pm investments.com.

Welcome back. I'm talking to Chris Palmer, that's you, and Nathan Finocchio. And it's interesting that one of you has a very almost bland name, and the other one has a name that draws a lot of attention to itself. How do you explain this? Well, so we're both, his, his real name is Palmieri. And my real name has two Cs in it. But it's the same thing. Both of our ancestors came through Ellis Island and our names were anglicized.

So that's actually the true history. The volg dropped off mine. So I have to explain everybody why this palm or not. So your real name is Christophora Palmyri. There you go. Sicilian, 100%. And your real name is Nathan. Finocchio.

Yeah, we're just two Dego getting lost. Well, Finocchio, Finocchio. is, doesn't it mean fennel? Oh, it's a lot worse than that. Fenugreek? Yeah, so it just means fennel, but in Italy, it means homosexual. Finokio? Yes.

Wait a minute. What are you talking about? You're serious. Why? Because, I don't know, the Italians, the Italians are vegetable people and all of their sexual innuendos come from gardening. Okay, so whatever you don't do, don't go to Italy. Because they will...

They won't say my name out loud. You're kidding. Because it's the worst thing that you could call somebody who's same-sex attracted. That's... It's hilarious. Wow.

Yeah. So Phenocchio is a fennel, just like you said. But they just don't use that term because... Okay. It's like... Yeah, it's... But this reminds...

I have to say this now. It's pretty fine. Because you brought it up since we're talking about stupid stuff like names. But in Greece, okay, I was just in Greece, right? And in Greece, right? you can't say Charlton Heston because

of course they pronounce it Zartleton Heston but they don't say Tzarton Heston they say Zalton eston because Heston

in Greek is a very bad thing it's like a nice way of putting it to say Heston would be like I poop on you but way worse than poop so you can't say Tzarton Heston No one would say that.

So in Greece, his name was always Salton Eston. Right. Anyway, we've covered a lot of important topics, and these are not any of them. Well, now I have to go say Charlton Heston. Salton, Kestun. Right. That's all I'm going to be thinking about next time I'm in... All right.

Mikanos. Now, speaking of which, you're a Greek scholar. Yeah, biblical Koeine. Yep, I teach it. Biblical Koeine. Yeah. Okay. I can't speak it.

So not Homeric, not classical Greek, not modern Greek, not Kassadavusa. Coine. Discoigne, the lower form. Okay. You're a Greek scholar. And Nathan, what kind of scholar are you? Not a scholar. I'm just a lowly theologian.

A lowly theologian. Yes. Okay, but you've heard of Wayne Grudem at least. Thank the Lord. Yes. Men of it. Okay, so you have a book called Theos Starter Pack, which is a very arch title.

You guys are kind of arch. And Nathan, you're extremely arch. Toward a recovery of Central Christianity. So if somebody gets this book, Theos Starter, pack? What will they find in this book? Okay, so Chris and I were thinking about, basically, we wanted to, it's essentially, I think I was telling you about this earlier, but it's essentially a fess shrived. It's a collection of, a fet. You think you're just kind of like come in here, looking all disheveled, you didn't comb your hair, and you're going to throw in the word

fest shrift, like you're going to, you didn't even pronounce it correctly. You're going to, you're to just throw that in like everybody knows what you're talking about. The only reason I know the word fess shrift is because I wrote a biography of Bonhoeffer who was involved in a couple of fess shrifts in his day. Can you please tell people what is a fess shrift? Well, sometimes they are, so they are academic. Celebration of writing. A celebration of writing. And they're typically a submission of essays from a variety of faculty members in honor of a specific faculty members. So what kind of a hodgepodge, a kind of paella? Yes, exactly. Of essays?

A mosaic, if you will. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. A Tiffany mosaic. Yeah. There's a Tiffany ceiling right above us here. Okay, so this is a bunch of essays.

Yes, from our faculty. Of the faculty. From our faculty at Theos, you. So who would be interested in Theos, you? And what's the difference between Thais You and Theos Seminary and who is taking these classes? Okay. So everybody who, anybody who, anybody, who wants to learn theology, particularly conservative theology, politically conservative theology,

charismatic theology. And I should say, once again, charismatic theology, what does that even mean? It means nothing and everything. As I said, so for example, my brother is, we're ecumenical. So my brother is high church leaning. I would probably be high church leaning. Chris is definitely sacramental, but he's Pentecostal. And then we have David Campbell and John Adams and Thomas West, Dr. Thomas West,

who they are, they're reformed as, as John Calvin, you know. And so, but we all... Imagine John Calvin being open to the gifts of the spirit. Yes, well... I think his hat would fly off. Certainly. That pinched hat that he wears in all the portraits. Yeah.

But so, but what you're talking about is actual Christianity. Now, those, you're interested in what is true. Right. It's not about a brand or denomination. You're open to actual Christianity. So we have, I think, about 8,000 subscribers, and half of those are church domains. So a lot of pastors use, we have over 100 courses on theosu for $15 a month. And it's academic.

We have hot topics that will deal with, let's say, women in ministry. You know, what are we supposed to believe about transgenderism? You know, and so we're a resource pastor. And then we have Romans. We have a Greek, Greek one. We have Greek exegesis. So you can go as nerdy as you want, you know, or you can go, you know, topically. Yeah, we have a lot of pastors that reach out and want us to resource them.

For instance, after the congressional hearings, there was all this alien UFO fever. And so people are asking us, how do you pastor somebody who has a UFO fever and is addicted to the YouTube videos and have become... I think you turn them over to the synagogue of Satan. That would be my response. So we produced a class on it. You produced a class on what is the biblical view of extraterrestrials? Yeah, more sort of working with how to treat the biblical text in a way that is not abusive,

that takes what's taking place in culture and running with it in a way that becomes unfaithful to the exposition of Scripture. and also talking about how to pass their people through it, especially those that have an interest in it. So the point I'm making is that there are classes that are that niche in THAOSU that help pastors that are kind of weaving their way through these things. Okay. So how many classes did you say you offer currently?

We add two every month, but we have over 100 currently. A hundred courses. Yeah, courses. Oh, yeah, courses. That's not just classes. And each course is how many classes? Depends. Some of them are.

We aim each course to be six to eight hours. Yeah, six, eight hours. Wow. Yeah. And so, I mean, you sort of answered this, but so why are you doing this? You're doing this because no one else is doing this. We're doing this because Bible colleges are slipping into progressivism. That's why we're doing this.

What? I haven't heard that at all. It's kind of funny because it's so obvious that seminaries, quote unquote, Christian colleges, you know, they're all evangelicalism is slipping into progressivism. And it's disturbing, at least disturbing to watch. And you see yourself as a healthy antidote to that. And you're usually a lot of fun. That's the impression I get from you guys, that you're fun. Got to be.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, theology is you got to add a lot of water. It's dry stuff. Yeah, Chesterton said the test of a good faith is its ability to laugh at itself. And so there comes a place where humor plays in the online space is that, allows us to laugh at things that are part of our, say, subculture that we can point out and say, look, we're laughing at this because it's not part of essential Christianity. These are

things that we have sort of designed and innovated ourselves, and maybe we should look at them and kind of laugh and appreciate the humor. We have a meme page that essentially lampoons everybody and anyone, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a giant recruiting tool for students. Yeah. You know, we had a kid, so we have a, so they ask you is the subscription model. It's kind of like the audit program of we also have a seminary called the house seminary. We have 200 students in there. And we had a student email us and he he signed up for school. A master's program. Yeah, in our master's program. And he goes, I was just following the meme page. And from the meme page, now I'm in this, now I'm in your seminary. And his wife.

Yeah. And his, yeah. So it's like humor is the tool. And it's the, it's the language. You know, once again, Chesterton, I love piggybacking off of him. But, you know, humor isn't a thing. It's just a language, you know, and you either speak it or you don't. But it's definitely the language of millennials in Gen Z, particularly memeology. We actually have a class on meme making. You have a class on meme making? Yes.

Yeah, so essentially he talks about how to condense your language in a way that's a fact of so where people don't have to think through it exhaustively and it makes a point quickly and it creates discussion around it that cause people to learn from them. There's a class on that? You can teach that? Memology 101. Yep. All right.

I wanted to end on a confusing note and I've succeeded admirably. We'll be right back. I'm talking to Nathan Finocchio and Chris Palmer. Don't go away. Every day we hear about another familiar brand selling out. their customers and going woke. Americans are sick and tired of having leftist propaganda jammed into every product they consume. Woke mobile companies are no different. For years, they've been dumping millions into liberal causes, and we've had to take it because you need a cell phone and probably

thought there was no alternative. I've got news to you there is, and I want you to make the switch today. Patriot Mobile is America's only Christian conservative wireless provider offering dependable nationwide coverage on all three major networks so you can get the best possible service in your area, minus the leftist propaganda. When you switch to Patriot Mobile, you're sending a message that you support free speech, religious freedom, the sanctity of life, Second Amendment, and our military veterans

and first responder heroes. Their 100% U.S.-based customer service team make switching easy. Keep your phone, keep your number two. Just go to patriotmobile.com slash metaxus or call 878 Patriot. Get free activation today with the offer code Metaxus. Ask about their coverage guarantee while you're there.

Get the same dependable service and take a stand for your values. Just go to PatriotMobil.com slash Metaxus. me why relief factor is so successful at lowering or eliminating pain. I'm often asked that question just the other night. I was asked that question. Well, the owners of relief factor tell me they believe our bodies were designed to heal. That's right, designed to heal. And I agree with them. And the doctors who formulated relief factor for them selected the four best ingredients, yes, 100% drug-free ingredients, and each one of them helps your body deal with inflammation. Each of the four ingredients deals with inflammation from a different metabolic pathway.

That's the point. So approaching from four different angles may be why so many people find such wonderful relief. If you've got back pain, shoulder, neck, hip, knee, or foot pain from exercise. They're just getting older. You should order the three-week quick start discounted to only 1995 to see if it'll work for you. It has worked for about 70% of the half a million people who've tried it and have ordered more. On one of them, go to Relieffactor.com or call 800 for relief to find out about this offer. Feel the difference.

Welcome back. I'm talking to Chris Palmer and Nathan Finocchio. Can I say that on the air? Finocchio. Not in Italy, you can't. And you two gents are behind Theos U and Theos Seminary. And now there's this book, Theos Starter Pack, toward a recovery of essential Christianity, which you've described as a fest shrift, very pretentiously. but effectively. What are some of the essays that people will find in this book, Theos Starter Pack? We have essays from, for example, Elijah Lamb.

He's 20 years old, and he's one of our faculty. He's just a young, brilliant thinker. And then we have essays from, you know, David Campbell, who is, I don't know, north of 70, but they're on, give me an example. Yeah, so we have everything on recovering apocalyptic,

the biblical genre apocalyptic, because a lot of people, they know eschatology, but they're not familiar with this genre to help lead them into maybe the way that traditionally we've thought about eschatology. We have things on recovering language in a sense of how do we use language faithfully as Christians to represent historical Christian orthodoxy

and deviated away from how postmodernism has taught Gen Z and millennials, that language doesn't mean anything. Things about sin and perhaps the word of faith doctrine and prosperity doctrine have moved people into what we would, a big word, I'll explain it, an over-realized eschatology, meaning that it doesn't think that we live in the already and not yet. How do we appropriately think about what we possess as Christians in our battle over sin and how much can we expect to receive in this life as a result of the work of Christ? We have topics on? I wrote an essay on reading scripture. So every

January, I read the entire Bible in 30 days. And I've done it for, I don't know, 10 years now. There's about there's, uh, now be honest, do you skim numbers? No. No, I don't. I only skim, the only thing that I skim is,

is the, the, uh, the, the genealogies. Definitely don't read through those. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay, but you don't skim numbers. No. Um, Does anyone not skim numbers? I skim it to make you feel better.

Numbers got some good... Numbers slaps. There's some good stuff in numbers. I think the first time I would highlight all the good stuff and then just read that. I think Numbers 13 says that like Moses was the most humblest man. If you get to numbers...

Most humblest? They wouldn't say most humblest. They would just say humblest or most humble. Yeah. Most humblest is kind of like, it's street though, Eric, you know? Yeah. Yeah. If you get the numbers... You know, it's like...

It's like... Sure. You don't speak... Walmart? I don't know. Maybe I do. Maybe I don't, but I'm not bringing it up. Okay, so you you guys like to have fun, and to me that's a biblical value, because humor and truth are inextricably intertwined. And what I find interesting, since you guys describe yourself as non-woke, the woke world is anti-humor, just like, you know, The Soviet Union was anti-humor and the Nazis were anti-humor because humor is keeping it real and is not afraid of truth.

And so that's interesting to me, that we're at a point now where when you describe yourself as politically and theologically conservative, you're the funny guys. Yeah, there's a lot of irony in scripture. And we think that irony and being satirical is a biblical value. One of the greatest things that you can move through the Gospels and kind of, if you read it closely, you'll find out that there are a number of past. that are actually ironic and somewhat satirical. Can you give me an example? Just recently, I was reading the Book of Revelation. You said the Gospels, though.

Yeah, well, any narrative. So you could even do the book of Revelation, which is a narrative. So there is a place where it shows the name. It gives you the name Diabolos. It gives you the name Satanus, and it gives you the name Serpent. And it's all there, and around it, it talks about how Christ, how it's been cast down, and then it gives you the three names, and then it shows it's been cast down. So almost an ironic way, the name of Satan is between what we call it an occlusio, a sandwiching effect.

It shows that on both sides he's been cast down. The way that you look at it. That is a level of craftsmanship, if I can use the word, that I wouldn't necessarily expect to find. In other words, that that would be intentional on the part of the author, unless it was simply God's intention and, you know, John got it kind of like, you know, the ball was kind of tossed to him and he just went with it for the layup. But that's interesting to me. I wouldn't think of it. Well, the other thing, too, is you have to remember that an author like John, maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I think that these guys were more Hellenized than we realized.

They would have been more well acquainted with, you know, the Greek tragedies, socio-ritorical, Greek commentaries, Greco-Roman literature. And so they'd use chiastic structure. You know, there's going to be... Hey, this is the family show, please. What is keyastic structure? Well, kiasm is when there's... It's kind of like a poetic meter, but there's like A, B, C, B, A.

Okay, got it. You know what I mean? Got it. But they'll use Inclusios. They're going to use these rhetorical devices that are common in first century. or, you know, the world that they're living in. And so they're real authors.

And so when they're writing, the original audience is reading this and going, they're recognizing the patterns just like they'll recognize the patterns or the emphatic patterns that, you know, Homer or Ascalis, you know. But isn't it amazing that 2,000 years later we're just discovering this? Isn't it a little bit bizarre that it's taken us 2,000 years to kind of notice this stuff? Well, what's interesting is that one thing to be right in the book is that early, readers would notice these things, careful readers, actually would notice these types of things and outline them in their commentaries,

like Victoranius, and different people reading throughout the centuries would... Going to a break, forgive me. We'll be right back talking to Chris Palmer and Nathan Finocchio. It makes a lot to say Hey there, folks. My friend Mike Lindell has a passion to help you get the best sleep

of your life, and he didn't stop at the pillow. Mike also created the Giza Dream bed sheets. These sheets look and feel great, which means an even better night's sleep, which crucial for our overall health. Mike found the world's best cotton called Giza. It's ultra-soft and breathable, but extremely durable. Mike's Giza sheets come with a 60-day money-back guarantee and a 10-year warranty. Mike's latest incredible deal is the sale of the year. For a limited time, you'll receive 50% off the Giza Dreamsheets, marking prices down as low as 2998. Depending on the size, go to

MyPillow.com. Click on the Radio Podcast Square and use promo code Eric. There you'll find not only this amazing offer, but also deep discounts on all My Pillo products, including the MyPillow 2.0 mattress topper, MyPillow kitchen towel sets, and so much more. Or you can call 800-978-3057. That's 800-978-3057. Or go to MyPillow.com. Use the promo code Eric. Mypillow.com.

Use the promo code Eric. Welcome back talking to the folks behind TheosU. And you were just saying, Chris, Pompile. that people have noticed these things in the past about the scripture and about the way the scripture is written. But many of us today, let's say, are ignorant of these kinds of things, ignorant of the context in which the scripture was written and the audience to whom the scripture was initially directed. And I think we often forget, you just said it, Nathan, but that this was a very Hellenized world.

And we forget that Jesus probably knew a lot about, you know, Greek writing and about Greek literature. It's hard for us because we often think of it as on this mythical island that doesn't touch anything else. So I was reading Sophocles last week and the story of Arrestes coming home to confront his mother Clytemnestra who slayed Agamemnon when he came back. you know from Troy and his sister doesn't know that he's alive and arrestes shows up and his sister's weeping because she thinks that he's dead and she thought that and her only hope of seeing justice and confronting his mother or her mother who slew her father is if arrestee shows up and arrestes has allowed a rumor to be pervaded in the town that he died in a chariot race so he comes and he has an old man go home and sends an urn of ashes and the ashes is given to the sister and she's

holding these ashes and she's weeping and arrestes shows up and he says you know what's what's going on and she's like my brother's dead you know and he's like why are you holding the urn of ashes and she's like well this is all i have left of him and he says to her why do you seek the living among the dead wait a minute sophocles has this scene yeah yeah so arrestis is is He's rumored to be dead. He's the only one that can bring justice. And he reveals himself to this woman, his sister, this loved one. And then he cleans house.

But obviously, that's intertext, right? That is... What do you mean? What's intertext? Intertext is when you are using something, or you're repurposing something that is culturally known. It happens all the time. So, for example, in the book of Revelation, every single verse is like intertext or just about intertext.

He recalls the Old Testament. From the Old Testament. It's recalling the Old Testament. Okay. Now, a liberal scholar or a theologian would say that's why I don't believe the New Testament is authentic. They were just making it up and, you know, quoting, ripping off of other texts. Yeah, absolutely. But like all of life is intertext, you know?

Like, so how much more powerful would Jesus revealing himself the woman? And this is Luke, interestingly, who writes this exactly. Who was a Greek? Correct. And he's writing to a Greek audience, right? And so he's using this intertext. And the original audience, particularly a Mediterranean dwelling audience, the Hellenized audience, would go, oh, that is so.

amazing. That is what Arrestes says. Except we would believe that the angel actually said those words. At least I would. In what sense? When the angel says why Siki the living among the dead,

that he's not just kind of making up the character of an angel, but that he's actually reporting on what happened. At least that's my... Yeah, for sure. And it wouldn't change. None of this changes the meaning of the text. It just puts more oomph into it for the original audience that would go, oh, wow.

Right. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you're borrowing from a really beautiful story that everybody would know. Right. So the point is just essentially that these people, you know, why are we discovering these deeper meanings or these little Easter eggs that are in scripture? Because these people lived in a real, you know, it's like if Jesus came back today, you're telling me that he wouldn't quote, you know, his favorite quote from Dumb and Dumber.

Do you really mean? Like, I hope he wouldn't, but I know what you mean. Or if he lived among us. No, no, of course. You know what I mean? Of course. There would be intertext. But look, Paul did it.

I mean, Paul is quoting pagan poets, which are now officially part of the Word of God. Exactly. And that's just intertext for the original. But I would love, I mean, I would love a class just on all of those Easter eggs are the best ones you can come up with. We offer a couple classes that have specifically that. One of our finest classes in our master's program is the New Testament use of the Old Testament. And it's a class that's a game changer for people because it shows how, through the repurposing of the Old Testament,

it shows fulfillment of the Old Testament through the lens of Christ, which is amazing. And obviously, I would be interested in things that referred to Sophocles or anything like that, because it's just so fascinating to me. There's a lot.

I'm reading through, I think I told you this, I'm reading through Bloom's Western Canada at the moment, and I've been keeping a diary of all of the intertext with the New Testament. And it has been fascinating. I call Chris every week,

and I'm like, dude, you're not going to believe this. Can you share one? Do you remember any of the story? of these, I'm dined it. Yeah, yeah. So that Sophocles one was huge. Prometheus bound by...

Escalis. Escalis. That's right. So in Prometheus bound, I'm reading, and you're seeing a representation of Satan like I've never seen before, right? Where he's thrown down to Tartarus. you know, well, Peter is the only New Testament writer who uses Tartarus, and Prometheus refuses to acknowledge Zeus or be repentant for what he's done, you know, and then he's bound for a thousand years. You know, it's just all of these, these parallels, right? Wouldn't we say that the best of classical Greece, the best of anything, is prefiguring.

what is going to happen. And in other words, I don't say this just because I'm Greek, but I really do feel like you have these kind of backward echoes in Greek literature, pre-Christian Greek literature. For sure. Because they were onto this truth idea. They were onto the logos. Socrates, obviously, he was, he seems to have been open to this stuff.

I mean, you even see that in Homer. It's just fascinating to me. For sure. And I think that these, this language is going to be adopted and reinterpreted. But it's going to be, there's going to be some context a little bit there. So then when the writers of the New Testament are explaining what is true, you know, they're not doing that in a vacuum or a cultural vacuum.

And so there's a lot of intertext that's going on. And it just makes things a lot more interesting to put yourself or, you know, at least attempt to, to put yourself in the seat of the first year. We'll be right back talking to Chris Palmer, Nathan Finocchio. Theos U is what we're talking about. Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone. Welcome back. We are talking to Chris Palmer and Nathan. Can I say it?

Yes. Finocchio. I apologize. Okay, so we just have a few minutes left. I hope people will check out Thios U. What's the website again? Thosu. dot C-A, T-H-E-O-U-S. Tha-E-O-S-U-T-H-E-O-S-U.

Thaus-U-C-A. Yeah, people need to go to that and they can get a copy of Tho's starter pack. But since we just have a few minutes left today, what else should we talk about, Chris? I think what we can understand is that in a time where people are confused online, what's going on with TikTok, and they're spending tons of of hours online. They don't have to deconstruct their faith and completely demolition it to where it's nothing and walk away from it. But they check out something like Theo. They can see that there are contours and depths to the faith that will help them appreciate it at a depth that they've never perhaps discovered and understand how wonderful the message of Jesus Christ is,

how, like we were talking about, how there's so much detail involved and conveying that message. and theology becomes a very exciting discovery at that point. I will accept that answer. No, that's just, it's wonderful that you two have been doing this. How many years have you been at this? This is the fourth year. The fourth year. And you just, what, you just call in favors, you call up a friend and go,

you're amazing at this. I want you to teach a course. Yeah, we try to bring in the best, the people who are on the cutting edge of what they teach, to offer classes to us. that share our values. Yeah, do you think, I mean, it's just interesting to me the way things are changing

and the way so much is going online, you know, in the past I would have said, oh, that's a bad thing. Now I think it's a good thing because more and more people can find what you're doing because it's needed and because they're not finding it at whatever, these seminaries or Christian colleges

that are, as we were saying, increasingly woke. So where do you think Nathan, where do you get your backbone in being able to stand up the way that you do? Because the pressure is so strong to conform, you know, to the zeitgeist. Yep. I don't know. You just surround yourself with good friends and have good people in your life. You know, I don't know. I think that at the end of the day, I want to be faithful to Jesus. I want to be a faithful witness. And, you know, I don't know. I think that. And, you know, it's, it's, I really believe in Jesus and I really believe that the scriptures are, I can't divorce Jesus from his words. And so, yeah, I want to, I want to be a faithful reader and I don't want to be conformed to the pattern of this world.

I want to be transformed by the renewing of my mind. And that's, yeah. So, so for me, it's probably, it's a conviction thing for me. It's not something that dwells, you know, in the, you know, I don't want to be an intellectual or a Christian or whatever that is disconnected from, I don't know, I don't know, the word has to become flesh. It needs to be incarnated, you know, like, and I think that, you know, I don't want to be disconnected from scripture and disconnected from reality, and I need to give an account to Jesus. So for me, yeah, it's definitely a conviction thing. Well, I'm just, I'm thrilled you guys are doing this, and I'm excited to check out some of your courses. What was the one that you mentioned with the intertext stuff?

Yeah, so we have a class, the New Testament used to the Old Testament. And then I teach class called Fun with Greek, where we get into all of that. Fun with Greek? Yeah, so we show how the Greek language, it's just the fab. Fun with Greek. We need to rename that. Yeah, Fun with Greek. I don't know.

Fun with Coinette. Because of Greek, I'm offended. I want to say I'm offended And I wanted to end on a note of offense And we've done so Nathan and Chris, thank you Thank you