The Eric Metaxas Show - Nathaniel Philbrick (Encore)

Episode Date: November 5, 2021

Nathaniel Philbrick covers the same route George Washington traveled to help unite the newly-founded America, and tells stories from "Travels with George." (Encore Presentation)

Taxis show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Uh-oh. It's Thursday, hour two. You know what that means? It's asked metaxis time. It's the time we ask metaxe. I'm playing the role of Metaxe. You're going to ax.

I'm going to Metax. And these are real questions. Ready? Yeah, yeah, let's go. Okay. First listener question. What do you think is the most important chapter in is atheism dead and why? Are you kidding?

You're reading from the wrong list. This is the list. Well, this is the one that... Don't you have another one? Don't you have another one? Let's do the other one. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

All right, we'll table that. We'll come back to that. Holy cow, you scared me. Okay, new one. What is your favorite C.S. Lewis book? Either Main Street or Babbitt. Oh, C.S. Lewis. Not S. Clair Lewis.

No, no. Wrong one. Oh. Parilandra or the Silver Chair. Hmm. Okay. Next question. Where do you stand? Or what do you, where do you stand on or what do you believe about ecumenism?

It's pronounced ecumenism. I can't. It's acumenism. It's a spice, isn't it? It's a spice, acumenism. Ecumenism means, like, religions kind of getting together and whatever and stuff. And ecumenism, I think oftentimes people who don't really believe in anything like the idea of, like, won't have faiths talk to each other?

Well, you can talk to each other, but you have to be really clear. Like Christians believe in the Nicene Creed, they believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead. He's the Messiah. He's the second person of the Trinity, aka God who created the universe. So if you're talking to somebody who doesn't believe that, you want to be clear that you may have things in common. So ecumenism totally cuts both ways. I think it depends on who's behind it. Generally speaking, it's been kind of like a...

dead mainline Protestant thing for the last 40 or 50 years of saying like, we kind of all believe in the same God, which is to say like, we don't believe in anything. Usually that's what ecumenism is. Really good ecumenism is very rare. All right. Follow up question. Except, I should say, in the universe of people who do believe in the Nicene Creed,

I believe very strongly in ecumenism. So I believe that Catholics and non-Catholics and Orthodox and whatever, we should all be talking each other more and focusing on what we have in common. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Next question. Have you ever considered the idea that the living universe could be God?

That the living universe could be God. Now, you'll notice that's a trick question because the universe is not living. It is quite dead, I tell you, dead. It has no will of its own. If you think it does, you believe in the flying spaghetti monster. There's no such thing as the living universe. people who say that are longing for God, but there's something about certain religions

that rub them the wrong way. So they substitute cleverly the universe, and they pretend that the universe, they say, oh, the universe intended that we be together. The universe is a bunch of empty space, flaming balls of gas and rocks. And there's one tiny planet, I always forget the name, where there's some life.

But the universe is not alive. So the idea that the universe could be God doesn't make sense on a number of levels. We don't have time to go into that, but that's such a good question. I think it's a kind of a trendy thing. I know a lot of people are going into the jungles, taking weird substances, and then they have these psychedictics.

The universe was speaking to me. And I got good news and bad news. The good news is if it was speaking to you, it wasn't the universe. Yeah. And it could have been like something satanic. Like a jaguar spirit. You probably really don't want to mess with that

because hell is really no fun. And I hear it's eternal. Be careful. We've got to take this stuff seriously, folks. Like the idea of, like, you know, worshiping other gods. This is getting too serious. Let's move on. All right.

Next question. How are you dealing with the Bitcoin world? I'm ignoring it. Next question. Okay. What's your favorite Greek dish? Definitely Molina Mercurie in her prime, gorgeous woman. Okay.

How do you feel about Elon Musk's pledge to give $6 billion to end world hunger if the UN can provide exactly where the funds would be going and how it would help? These are such great questions. I think that he has the right idea. In other words, he's a private citizen. The problem is when you go to the U.N., I don't think there's anything more sad or corrupt than the U.N. So you might as well go to Venezuela,

or why not go straight to China and give the money to them? That's the only problem. But I like Elon Musk's idea. I think he ought himself to look into the, because he is way brighter than the hacks at the UN. And I say hacks kindly. But I love this idea, and I wish people of wealth, instead of taxing us or saying we should tax more,

would use their money to do things like this, and especially world hunger, not like climate change, which is as nebulous as it gets. All right. Who is the best atheist for Christians to read and learn from, in your view? I would say I am. Oh, you're the best atheist. Yes.

All right. Do you feel that attending Yale was a key factor in catapulting you into your writing career? No. I actually attended Trinity College in Hartford before I transferred to Yale. And it was my time at Trinity. I took a, they called it guided studies, which was like an honors humanities program. And I knew I didn't want to stay at Trinity. And I thought, while I'm there, like, let me take this. and the guided studies courses at Trinity were so good. It was history and it was basically the Western canon,

which starts with, you know, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Bible, you know, all the way up through the Aeneid and Homer and the rule of Benedict and it all this great stuff. And I knew then, and I was 17 as a freshman because I skipped a grade, and I knew that, like I had thought, thought I wanted to go into politics. And I took one polysy course, and I hated it so much that I still vote, but I said, no, this is not for me.

And I love the humanities courses so much that I said, I know that I want to be a writer. And so that happened not at Yale, but at Trinity. Okay. Great. Another question. Our son's first name is Benaya Dietrich, but now we need another boy name. Any suggestions? on a boy name.

How about Dietrich Benaya, or is that too close? That might be too close. Habakkuk, Hezekiah. Actually, you know what? Yesterday, when I was in the book, not yesterday, when was this? Well, it was a few days ago. I was in the bookstore in Queens, which is living, what's it called, living word? I forget the name, but in Queens.

and one of the guys who is helping us, you know, as I'm signing the books, is named Moses. I love that name for a boy. And if you, I just love it. I just love the name Moses, so I'll say Moses. That's a good one. All right. Next question. I've been a believer since the age of 17.

I feel like I lack apologetics. Are there any resources you'd recommend? Wow. I've been a believer. since the age of 17, and yet I guess this writer implies that he or she is no longer 17, what do I recommend? Well, I have written some books of apologetics myself, hard not to recommend them. It really depends on what kind of a reader you are. I mean, seriously, I take apologetics seriously, so I have written a bunch of books. I wrote three books in the everything

you always want to know about God, but we're afraid to ask series. Everything you always want to know about God, everything else you always want to know about God and everything you always want to know about God, but we're afraid to ask Jesus' edition. That's kind of light humor. But, I mean, I really poured my heart into those books. I really rarely talk about them. And the new book is Atheism Dead, is all apologetics. But there are so many that I'm embarrassed.

These are all such good questions. I want to revisit them. So I think more than a carpenter is a great place. to start. And I also think John Stott's basic Christianity. I'll just, I'll leave it at that. All right. If you didn't live in the U.S., what country would you move to? Probably California. Okay. Last question. Where do you get your pants? Shopping question. Where do I get my pants?

What store? Well, are you referring to any specific pants? Because I use more than one pant supplier. I think, let's see, there's a, I think a lot of stuff I get lately from Ralph Lauren, probably. So I'm going to go with Ralph Lauren. And I met Ralph Lauren in his store in Connecticut. Super, super, super, nice guy. This is probably a Ralph Lauren jacket. And, yeah, good stuff.

Great questions. We'll see you next week. Hey, folks, my friend Mike Lindell, the inventor and CEO of my pillow, wants to give back to our listeners. That's you. You can get great discounts on all my pillow products if you go to my pillow.com right now and click on the radio listener specials. Get deep discounts on MyPillow's mattress toppers, wow, towels and so much more. For example, Mike's offering a buy one, get one free offer on Giza sheets.

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But Albin and I rave about the mattress toppers. I tell everyone I know, check it out. Hey, folks, I've got to tell you a secret about relief factor that the father, son, owners, Pete, and Seth Talbot, have never made a big deal about, but I think it is a big deal. I really do. They sell the three-week quick start pack for just 1995 to anyone struggling from pain like neck, shoulder, back, hip, or knee pain, 1995, about a dollar a day. But what they haven't broadcasted much is that every time they sell a three-week quick start, they lose money. In fact, they don't even break even

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about Washington's decision upon becoming president to head out on a road trip and to unite his already divided country. And to make it interesting, I thought, well, what if I followed Washington's footsteps as he toured the country at a time of deep political divisions and tried to find out how our first president tried to unite the country at the beginning? And so I set out with my wife Melissa and our dog Dora doing my best John Steinbeck imitation and followed Washington across the country. Travels with Georgie. I get it. I get it now. This is wonderful. Well, first of all, so then we're talking about what year did he leave? If he's inaugurated in 89, what was it, 97? I can't remember. He was inaugurated April 30th, 1789, and he quickly made the decision soon after that,

that he needed to do something to get out of the office and see the people that was his job to lead. Oh, I'm during his presidency he did this. Okay, so to be clear, I thought that Washington went on this journey immediately after the end of his second term. You're saying he did it as he became president. So this is in 1789, 90, he decides to go on a journey. I am fascinated that I've not even heard this before. Is this common knowledge? And I just missed this part? It's an underreported part of Washington's presidency where, you know, people focus on the policies he created, how he created the presidency. But what's kind of forgotten is his initial decision that he needed to get out of the office and see the people, it was his job to lead. This was a job. This was a president. This was a

a time of deep political division already. The Constitution had divided the country, into those who supported a strong government, those who wanted the power to be with the states. And so Washington set out. And yes, it's kind of slipped under the radar screen. It's fascinating to me to go back, because we all have the mythical view of how things started, but obviously even the fact that they had to go back to the drawing board and create the constitution. So when you say the country was divided then, what were the states that were particularly hostile to the idea of a strong federal government and who was in favor of it? Yeah. Well, when Washington was inaugurated, two states, North Carolina and Rhode Island had not yet even ratified the Constitution.

So they hadn't participated in his election. I mean, it was that close to not happening, really. And so Washington set out, said, wait a minute, we have to get people thinking of the country as the United States of America, not as each state, which is really where the power had been under the Articles of Confederation. So, you know, he went out on this road trip. Now, when we think of a road trip, of course, you know, we think of a motor home or we think of, we can think of a lot of things. What did that mean? I mean, this is a road trip before there was such a thing as a road trip. So if you're the president of the United States in 1789, what did it mean for him to leave New York, I guess, and to go on a road trip?

How did he do it? What did he do? I mean, obviously, that's what your book is about. But give us an idea. Yeah, well, he traveled in a horse-drawn carriage, pulled by four horses. There was an entourage of about a dozen people. Two of them is enslaved servants, Giles in Paris. He was accompanied by an aide.

and, you know, a retinue is what he called it. And so he was traveling in a horse-drawn carriage. There was a baggage wagon behind that, and behind that was his white charger named Prescott. And Washington had a flare for the dramatic. And before you would come into a large town or city, he would step out of the carriage, dressed in his general's uniform from the Revolution,

mount that big white horse and ride into town. Isn't that just beautiful? There's something about, I mean, there's no question that Washington, he was a rare figure in having a really keen sense of the role that he was playing. He wasn't just some bureaucrat who happened to rise, you know, into that office. He was keenly aware that everything he did was setting a precedent for the future. But the idea that he had that sense of theater and that he would ride into each town that way. Tell us more about that. I'm just fascinated. What a wonderful thing. Yeah, well, you know, he had a sense of theater. He loved going to plays. He was not, you know, one for small talk,

but he understood the dynamics of a room. He understood the dynamics of coming into a town or city. He had been doing it for eight years during the revolution. And so, yes, he would come in very dramatically, you know, with those gold epaulettes on his shoulders, either side of the road crowded with citizens yelling their applause, and he would come on in. And for many people, this was their first glimpse of a national hero, but it was also, hey, we now have a president of the United States. It's not just our little town.

It's just not just our state. There's a country here, and this is the leader. It's George Washington. The more I looked into Washington's life over the years. the more I felt guilty really almost for not having appreciated him sufficiently. He really had a burden, a personal burden to bring the country together. He understood that that wasn't normal and that an effort had to be made. Obviously, he did that in part during the revolution.

But the idea that he saw this as an important part of his presidency, he wasn't just an executive. He was actually a figurehead. understood that role. It's almost like the monarch, you know, I guess there is something about him that seems monarchical slightly. Yes. And it worried Thomas Jefferson, the Secretary of State, who, you know, accused the Washington administration of being monarchical. And Washington understood that. But what made Washington different, he was not someone on an ego trip trying to, you know, turn himself into a dictator. He was trying to use his person.

celebrity. I mean, he was the most popular man in the world at this point. He was trying to use that to create an office that would transcend the ego of any single person, you know, a country of law, laws. And so, you know, it's a fine line. Those who trusted him said, okay, that's great. But there are, you know, others on the other side, such as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison saying, whoa, this is dangerous. This is going the way of the British. monarchy. And, you know, so already you're seeing, you know, those divisions in America as Washington tries to pull everybody together. It is interesting because you don't think of him as a showman. He was not a loudmouth, but he really did have that sense of the importance of presentation, just what you've said about the way he would ride in on that white charger. Now, are there paintings of that scene, I'm sure? I guess I've probably seen one. Right. Well, there's a terrific painting by N.C. Wyeth, you know, the illustrator, Treasure Island, you know, just a wonderful painter of Washington riding on that great big white horse into Trenton, New Jersey. And it was there. It was an all-female group greeting him, and they're throwing rose petals in front of him. And it's just a wonderful painting that really captures the, you know, shock and awe of Washington riding. you know, in on Prescott.

I love it. It is, it's interesting to me that after writing three books on the revolution, the carnage that you decided you wanted to, you wanted to keep going and in a sense, enjoy the peace yourself since you had to go through this. That's a lot of books to write about the revolution. And before we go to the next second, actually we're going to go to a break right now.

Folks, I've got the joy of speaking with Nathaniel Philbrick. We've had him on the program, I recommend almost all his books. The only ones I can't recommend are the ones I haven't read yet. We'll be right back. Hey, folks, Eric Metaxis here. Joe Biden and the Democrats have laid out the most socialist agenda our country has ever seen. Instead of following President Trump's blueprint that had the economy booming, the Dems are going to raise taxes, increase regulations, and skyrocket an already outrageous national debt. If your retirement is in traditional investments, it is in

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Contact legacy, precious metals today. That's 866-473-6204. Hey there, folks. I'm talking to Nathaniel Philbrick, celebrated author of many books. The new one is Travels with George in Search of Washington and his legacy. Now, this is a very clever cover. It shows George Washington looking in the rearview mirror of a car. very clever, not just because it's funny,

but because it says something that he's looking in the rearview mirror. He's wondering about his legacy. He was somebody who was also keenly aware of legacy. Not to a fault, I don't think, from what I have read. It wasn't about burnishing his credentials. It was simply about understanding that idea. So talk a little bit about that. That had something to do with why he was making this trip.

Yeah, he was deeply concerned. about his legacy. He really wanted to be on the right side of history when people like us were looking back. And so he carefully scripted everything in his life as best he could. And just as he would script his entry into a town, he would receive addresses from the citizens of each town and city, and he would respond with addresses, many of them ghost written by his staff. But, you know, he was laying the groundwork for how this would be remembered. And, you know, this is one of the reasons why he struggled so with the issue of slavery. You know, he was obviously a slave owner. And after, during the revolution, he came to begin to change his views from being an unrepentant

slaveholder from Virginia. He began to see that the future of the union might be. be imperiled by slavery. But he was hopelessly involved in it himself. And yet, you know, it was his legacy that caused him, I think, really to dwell on this issue. How should I make my own feelings known if the creating the union won't allow me to do it publicly as president. And so that's why he freed his enslaved workers upon his debt. Yeah, that's, it's extraordinary. I guess my takeaway from what I have read about Washington is that he was humble in some ways. There was something about him, a diffidence that I guess I pick up.

I'm trying to think there's a two-volume biography of him that was written about 120 years ago. I can't remember who wrote it. But you almost felt like you were there with him because there were letters of people that were with him. And he really just seemed like one of those figures that history throws up now and again. And you just think that they were tailor-made for that moment. I mean, his size, his physicality, a number of things just make him seem like an outsized figure actually, rather than just, you know, in how we remember him.

It's a fascinating combination. I mean, he really didn't want to be president. He, you know, in his diary, he's, you know, it's the most miserable he's ever been. After achieving miracles in the revolution, he just sees the potential for throwing it all away as president because he knows how difficult a job it's going to be. And yet combined with that diffidence, that lack of faith in himself, is this tremendous ambition and realization that he is the only one in the country. country who could serve as this president. And, you know, that, combining that, you know, often you're, you say the best person for a job is someone who doesn't want it, you know, that's interested in something else. Washington is that perfect instance of that. Someone who had the skills, he really,

he wasn't doing this because he had spent all his life yearning to be president. He was doing this because he felt he had no choice. And, and so he had, you know, the charisma. He had the charisma. He had the talent for the small gesture that would completely win his stanchest critics to his side. You know, when he enters New York City during his, as he's making his way toward his inauguration, there's this huge crowd. And the leader of the militia comes up to him and says, can I escort you to your quarters? and he says, no need to. The people gathered around me are all the escort I need.

You know, this is an ability to hit that theatrical moment on the head that very few people have. Yeah, I was going to say, and of course we all remember the famous moment when he pulls out his glasses, giving his, the famous speech. I can't remember. Is that at Francis Tavern? Or I don't remember where it was, no. Or maybe this was the one up in. in Newburgh, New York.

He says something, I've gone grain your service. But that seems deliberately theatrical, too, even though it wasn't put on. But he seems to be aware of the effect. He's an extraordinary figure. Obviously, the father of our country who himself had no children. Who was with him during this time? You said he had ghostwriters. He had a retinue.

Was Martha with him during this season? No, Martha, you know, they had adopted. her grandchildren, his step-grandchildren. They were eight and ten at the time. And so she stayed at the presidential mansion with the kids while he headed out on these road trips. And she was not happy about his becoming president, but like him, realized there was really no other choice. And it is funny when you say that, it is true.

I mean, I think of Moses, obviously, classic example like no I'm not I'm so humbled and it's like yes exactly because of your humility we're going to choose you we meaning God

but it's kind of funny because you get that from yeah well if we hadn't had someone like Washington who could it have been I mean you just look at the alternative you don't want to think about it we're going to go to a break here let's go we'll review that list when we come back folks I'm talking to Nathaniel Philbrick really excited brand new book

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I'm talking to the author Nathaniel Philbrick. The book has Travels with George in Search of Washington and his legacy. Nathaniel, you were just saying, if it hadn't been Washington to be the first president, who would it have been? And this is one of those things

where it's almost impossible for us to reimagine it because he seems created to be that. you know, it's like a great, a certain novel, a famous novel. You know, if Ahab hadn't been the captain, who would be the captain? You think, well, I can't answer that question. Like the whole thing is all baked together. They can be no. That's how I feel about Washington.

I mean, who was around at the time? You know this better than anyone who might have been president. Well, the second vote getter in that first presidential election was John Adams. And, of course, he would be the second president after Washington finished out his second term. And, you know, he was a – Adams was a quintessential federalist, a New Englander. The opposite kind of personality from Washington, no interest in those grand theatrical moves. You know, as he admitted to friends, you know, a introvert, someone who just – you know, if he wasn't in the White House, he was back home in Massachusetts. In fact, he was probably in Massachusetts as much as he was in the White House when he became president.

On the other side is Thomas Jefferson, you know, a better social person, but also not anyone interested in getting out there and mingling with the people. And they came from, and Jefferson Adams came from opposite sides of the political spectrum. What made Washington unique was that he was a southerner with the political views. big government, you know, taxation program of a northerner. And so he could, you know, before there was an aisle, he could reach across it because he embodied both sides. He also strikes me as that kind of a figure that he, like being divisive, repelled him. He wanted to be a unifying figure. And of course, what you're describing in the book, he travels around the colony specifically to unite the country. It's almost a calling that he had.

and it's one of the reasons we call him the father of the country. Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things he, there would be virtual warfare within his own cabinet as Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton went at it, you know, because they were also from the opposite ends. And there are these wonderful letters, Washington writes the two of them, saying, you know, as soon as you get this far from another person in your point of view, the thing you have to start wondering is maybe a middle,

core is better. You know, he's not the opposite of a dogmatist. He's saying, let's try to make it work rather than prove we are a writer than you are. And that really is a unique kind of position to be in. He didn't have to be right all the time. He was just trying to make it work. Well, I mean, that's a different kind of dogma, I guess, in a way that unity meant every. He understood that if we don't hang together, we will hang separately, something along. those lines except a few years later, but it's a similar idea that he understood that that's the priority for the country. I like the phrase he called the country in 1789, the infant woody country. What a great phrase. It's such an 18th century phrase, too, but I love that

idea. And it's hard for us to imagine when you mentioned road trip, what were the roads like? And how far did he go? I mean, to what extent did he travel? Yeah. Well, it was the infant woody country. You know, if you traveled from Mount Vernon to Baltimore, it looked like primeval forest in 1789 as he made his way to New York. The roads were terrible.

The roads were terrible everywhere. But the public taverns, and Washington insisted in staying only in public taverns. He wanted to have no favorites on these tours. And these were like the roadside motels today. They were terrible beds, worse food, flees throughout. But Washington felt that, you know, I am a leader of I am one of you. So he did this. And it was an arduous ordeal, particularly the longest tour of them all, the south,

where he traveled from what was now the temporary capital of Philadelphia, all the way down to Savannah, inland to Augusta, and then back, more than almost 2,000 miles. It took him three months traveling by horse-drawn carriage. And it was, you know, while Congress was in recess, this is what Washington was doing while all the other politicians were on vacation, trying to pull people together by actually going to a person's village or Hamlet. And did he get up to New Hampshire?

How far north did he get? He got all the way to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and then during a harbor tour, he stepped onto what's now Kidory Point, Maine. It was then part of Massachusetts. And so that was as far north as he got. So, you know, look at a map. From Portsmouth down to Savannah is a huge distance traveling. You know, he would average somewhere between 40 and 45 miles a day,

stopping frequently to feed both the people and the horses. And, you know, so this was. this was not getting an Air Force one and virtually parachuting into a community. This was a real ordeal. It's fascinating to me that he stayed in public taverns. That's a big thing. I guess I'm a little surprised by that. I would have expected him to stay at the homes of wealthy people in each town.

This was a real issue for him to do this, to be a man of the people, so to speak. Yeah, and when he came to Boston, the governor then goes. of Boston, John Hancock, sort of expected Washington to stay at his beautiful house on Beacon Hill. And Washington says, no, I've got a, you know, I'm a matter of policy. I'm not staying in private homes. And Hancock took such umbrage. He didn't show up when Washington rode into Boston. And Washington's response to that was Hancock had invited Washington to dinner, Washington had accepted, assuming Hancock would, you know, come to the festivities, he said, no, I am not coming to dinner. I am the president. You see me first before I see you.

And so Hancock, who was enormously popular in Massachusetts, has to suffer the indignity of apologizing, going to Washington's quarters saying, yes, I made a mistake here, please come to my house for dinner, and he would. I mean, that's the other thing you get about Washington. This formality and a real sense of these kinds of things, of what is proper. Propriety was a big thing for him. But I've never heard that story, and I'm sure I've never heard many of the stories in this book. I'm talking to Nathaniel Philbrock, the book is Travels with George.

We'll be right back. Hey, there, folks. I'm talking to the author of Travels with George. Yes, it's Nathaniel. Phil Brick, do you say, Nathaniel, how many books you've written? I can't even imagine, because you've been doing this for a little while. How many books officially do you admit to have written? I think this is my 13th.

13th book. Yeah, your books are, I mean, I think the reason you're a popular author is because you don't only write about interesting things, but you write interestingly. You write well, and I'm not just trying to butter you up. I think it's important. People are, they don't like to trudge through prose. And this actually seems just like a fun thing to write about. What else do we need to know?

I mean, actually, let's go back. You made the trip yourself with your wife, and you said with your dog as well. What kind of a dog do you have? We have a toller, a Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever. They look a lot like a fox and high energy. So, you know, we obviously had to stay in dog-friendly hotels, but I have to say Mount Vernon is dog friendly.

So for us, it really sort of, to follow George this way, gave you a sense of just how hard he worked. You know, we all laugh about Washington slept here. We began after a year and a half of following Washington, we really began to understand the personal sacrifice, the physical sacrifice that was involved. I was going to say this is, it's amazing that you did. this. How long was his journey? Was it a year and a half on his side? It was, he broke them up into

four different legs, but he did them during the first two years of his first term. And so we spent about that much time following him. And, you know, one of the things that was, we were traveling in a car, obviously. But there were parts of the south, particularly between Charleston and Savannah, where the roads he traveled are still there. And since the I-95 has taken away the traffic, you can drive down very much the way George did back in 1790. And it's just, you know, you have the sense of channeling the past in a way that I've never experienced researching other books. It just sounds wonderful.

It sounds like a mini-series or a reality show or something. Really, I mean, what a great idea. But what a great idea for a book. But it's just fascinating to me to think that he actually did this and that you figured it out. How did you do that? I mean, did he write about it in such a way that it was fairly easy to piece together? Where did you find, was it his diary? Where did you find this kind of information to know the details?

Yes. But he kept a diary. And those papers have been published. They're edited wonderfully. And so, you know, you can really see the towns he went to. And one of the things I did with is before we even left, I made a list of all the towns and more than 100 of them. And reached out to all the libraries and historical societies of each town. And, I mean, which is a big job, obviously.

But I, and asked them, you know, what memories do people have in your community of Washington's travels? Soon I was getting articles, newspaper articles, along with journals, diaries, local histories that were written in the 19th century. And so even before we got hit the road, I had this whole archive formed and also contact, because many of the librarians and archivists volunteered to get in our car when we drove into town and show us around. So it was just a great way to experience history and this country. It just sounds delightful. Great idea. Great idea for a book. Thank you, Nathaniel Philbrick.

For all you write, and in this case, for all your traveling. The book is Travels with George. Thanks for being with us. Great to be with you, Eric.