The Eric Metaxas Show - Norman Stone

Episode Date: November 12, 2021

Director Norman Stone shares stories from the making of his new hit movie, "The Most Reluctant Convert," plus discusses some of his many other films.

the Eric McTaxis show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. Today is Thursday. Hard for me to believe it's Thursday. It's Veterans Day. It is Veterans Day. I don't remember Veterans Day falling on a Thursday. Do you remember that?

No. It's just November 11th is always... I know. Yeah. Well, listen, I say this in most of my speeches now. There have been people who have given their lives to this country. There have been people who've given years to serve this country. we are all, every single American, obliged to give.

Now, if you don't give your blood in your life or you don't serve in the military, you need to give in other ways. We need to keep the republic, and we're going through a difficult time right now as a nation because we've forgotten this. And so I just want to remind everybody that when you think about these veterans, think about the fact that it's not just for some. We're all supposed to do something, whether that's, you know, teaching our kids about, what America is and why we're a great country and why we had a war of independence and why we had a civil war. All that stuff is really important. So I just want to say, first of all, happy Veterans Day to my fellow Americans. But to think about it along those lines, we all need to do something to keep the republic. Okay, today, Norman Stone. Norman Stone. Norman and I have been friends for over 20 years,

and he is a great film director and an amazing friend, like a dear, dear soul. So during the interview today, we're going to have him on today for both hours. I'm going to pretend that, you know, we kind of don't know each other that well, just to be professional. But just right now, I want you to know that I really love him and his work. Some of his work is so amazing. So maybe we'll get to talk about that today.

But in both hours today, my friend Norman Stone, why? Because there's a new film out called The Most Religious. and convert. You'll hear all about it. It's C.S. Lewis, C.S. Lewis. Very exciting. That's today. Tomorrow.

Tomorrow. We have Fox and Friends's Brian Kilmead. He has another book out, history book. Brian Kilmead is a great guy. I got to tell you. And I am really thrilled that we get talked to him for the full hour tomorrow. And I've been reading his book on the train, and it's really excellent. He wrote a book on the train?

No, it's the book that he just wrote. Oh, you mean the book that he wrote you're reading on the train? That is what I'm trying to say here. Oh. Yeah. And the book is about Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. Okay. In our two today, before we do the second part of the interview with Norman Stone about C.S. Lewis, we're doing an ask met taxes.

Folks, that's where you ask me, the tough questions, and I come back with, you know, answers of varying kinds. And we're going to try to keep it serious this time, too. Maybe, maybe. We'll try. But we do it, we really, we do it every week on Thursday. And if you're not following me on Instagram, hey, what do you want from me? But we do it every Thursday in the second hour. That's today, hour two.

So two hours with Norman Stone, but before the second hour, we're going to do Ask Mataxis. Today I fly down to Virginia. I'm going to be at Liberty University tomorrow and Saturday. And then I fly to Alpharetta. Actually, I fly to Atlanta. and I'm driven to Alpharetta, where I'm speaking at Restoration Church twice on Sunday. Wow. If you can get to Alpharetta, Georgia, I'll be signing books and all that. I love meeting people in line and signing books and, you know, all this stuff.

You know, it's interesting. You do a lot of sermons. I'm wondering, you have honorary doctorates from universities. Do you get an honorary pastorate from these churches? I get Bubges. I get Jack. You got nothing. Okay, now listen. I don't want to forget. I'm going to Albuquerque the following week. whereas my dad says, Albuquerque. Please pay for my dad.

Still struggling. Won't give you details. But so many people have said, how's your dad doing? And I get choked up to the fact that strangers, people I just met are asking about how my dad is doing. God bless you, folks. Thank you.

Finally, we need to talk about flatulence. And I don't like to talk about it. It's a serious subject. But at the GI Summit the other day, the other day, a couple of weeks ago, we know that Joe Biden, I think he was trying to send a message. I don't know if this was like 3D level statecraft about, you know, the gas pipelines and all this different stuff. Camilla Parker Bowles was the unfortunate recipient.

The Duchess of Corn Pop. Cornwall was the unfortunate recipient of his quote-unquote message. And let me just say she got the message loud and clear that he, I think, he may have been sending a message about emissions or he may have been sending a message on behalf of the late Princess Diana and just saying like, you know, I don't like what you did there

Camilla. But now we don't know because the whole thing is that we don't know if it was an involuntary message or if he actually chose to you know to kind of knock her back on her heels almost literally

with the force of the blast. She was close to the epicenter. So anyway, I hate to talk about stuff like this. We got an email the other day of a woman rebuking me for talking about Joe Biden in this way. And I just want to say, I hear you. I hear you. Oh, Albin, I'm sorry. Yes. We should mention this also before we forget. Okay. The, well, because I never write these things down. The Babylon B. Oh, yeah. Interviewed me. Yes. And I've never done an interview like that. You're sitting there with two people who are sort of quiet, but they're comedy geniuses. I mean, I know Ethan Nicole in particular is like freaky level.

Yeah, he's been on their show with that Bears Want to Eat You book. Yeah, he's nuts. Let me break it down. He's insane. But he can monetize that insanity. And the Babylon B, I have just the greatest respect for them. But I did a podcast with them pretty long. We talked about my friendship with Larry David.

We talked about me meeting the original. I had a, you know, it was a dinner party at Larry David's house, and I was there. I was like, you know, and we talked about a lot of stuff. We talked about how I sold my soul, you know, for political power by becoming a show, by trading my role as Christian intellectual for a role as sellout and shill for the orange menace, Donald Trump. We really got into all that stuff. Some of it's funny and some of it's definitely not funny. and I'm just saying some of that

I found a lot of information I haven't heard from you in other interviews that's what I liked about it. They did a deep dive as we like to say. They did a deep dive. And in the beginning they mock me a little bit and you know what? I can take it. You can. I'm a big boy or at least someday I will be.

And let me say this. We're almost at a time. So before we go to Norman Stone, we both watched the film. Yes. Now I don't want to comment on it because I'm going to have a conversation with him about it. But you watched it.

Oh, my wife and I watched it. We had a great time. Yeah, I have a question because they call this guy William Kirkpatrick, who was the headmaster of a boarding school in Belfast or something. They call him The Great Knock. And I was always wondering, why is he called the Great Knock? Well, first of all, he was not the headmaster of boarding school. He was a tutor.

He was a tutor who would take in, like, I don't know, a couple of pupils, he and his wife. He tutored C.S. Lewis's father, who became a solicitor. which is to say lawyer. He then tutored C.S. Lewis's elder brother, Warnie, and Warnie was so improved by the time with Kirkpatrick that C.S. Lewis asked if he could go. And so he visited him. And when Suzanne and I were watching the film,

like I can quote lines before they're said, because I've heard this stuff so much by now. But he was called The Great Knock, and we don't know exactly why. Yeah, I looked in several different places. By the way, the actor playing The Father was the star of Hinterland, and he's such a great actor, and he does such a great job. And the actor who plays the young C.S. Lewis, he is in all creatures great and small on PBS.

So now. Stellar cast. Of course, Max McLean. Well, Max McLean, we've had him on here. Oh, he's a big cheese now. Oh, he's a star. We knew him when, right? Yes, that's right.

We know him when he was about that high. We know him when he was a slightly less big cheese. But I want to say this, before we go to Norman Stone and get serious about C.S. Lewis. We are two big sponsors on the program, Mike Lindell and Neutrimetics. We want you to go, do your Christmas shopping now because there are supply chain problems. Suzanne and I, when we landed in San Diego, we saw, like, as far as the eye could see, container ships. Do you know how big a container is? It's bigger than this studio. That's one container. A ship holds, I don't know, hundreds of them, and there were dozens of these ships. It's like all of

America is on hold. So go to mystore.com, go to MyPillow.com, go to Neutrametics.com. Use the code, Eric, buy all your Christmas presents now because there will be no Christmas this year. We'll be right back. Hey, folks, I've got to tell you a secret about relief factor that the father, son, owners Pete and Seth Talbot have never made a big deal about, but I think it is a big deal. I really do. They sell the three-week quick start pack for just 1995 to anyone struggling from pain like neck, shoulder, back, hip, or knee pain, 1995, about a dollar a day. But what they haven't broadcasted much is that every time they sell a three-week quick start, they lose money. In fact, they don't even break even until about four to five months after if you keep ordering it. Friends, that's

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I use it. It works. Hey there, folks. Have you heard of CS-Lewis? Why not? C.S. Lewis is probably the greatest author of the 20th century, in my opinion. Do you want to challenge me on that? Go ahead. You don't have a radio program. I can't hear you. All right. C.S. Lewis, whatever you think of him, is at least one of the greatest authors of the 20th century. He began life in the 19th century, but he was too young to write. When he got old enough to write, he wrote the Narnia Chronicles. Do you need to have done anything? besides write the Narnia Chronicles. I didn't read them until I was 30, and I as a writer, was so impressed with those books, I said these are some of the most sophisticated, glorious

creations of literature in history, and then I proceeded to read his other stuff. And let me just tell you, I'm a fan of C.S. Lewis, which brings me to my friend Norman Stone, the film director. Norman Stone got on the map early in 1984 by directing a film called Shadowlands for the BBC starring Claire Bloom, Joss Ackland, and he's been doing all kinds of things, but a little bit of C.S. Lewis here and there. He has just directed a new film called The Most Reluctant Convert, starring our friend Max McLean and Norman Stone across the pond from the Inverrons of Glasgow is here with us in the studio. Norman, is that you? This is still me.

It's still you? Yep. My friend, listen, we've been friends for a long time, and you and I have had millions of silly conversations or at least hundreds. But we both love C.S. Lewis. So when I found out from Max McLean in this studio, You know, he's starring as Lewis, but that you had directed it. I flipped because I said there's literally nobody else who should direct the film. Can you tell us because there are people tuning in.

They didn't hear the Max McLean interview. They may not know about the film rather than my telling them what I know. Tell us what is the film and, you know, what will we find in the film? Okay. Lewis did write a lot of books. You're right. one of the ones that's probably the most impressive in many ways is the surprise by joy

basically it's his own story he writes with a self-deferential wit and information comes out and you want to read more so this is how he began life turned into an atheist and then was a very dogmatic atheist then he went to university after a trip through the First World War and so on and he's soon

being challenged by people like Tolkien and one or two other than the Inches. J.R.R. Tolkien, not to be confused with lesser Tolkien's. That's true. So they were very dear friends. Yes, they were. And Tolkien was a Christian. Louis wasn't. Lewis thought he could handle it. Argued, enjoyed arguing. Finally gets trapped into seeing himself as he really is with great reluctance. That's where his quote from the reluctant convert comes in. He will not duck the truth, so he becomes a deist. Now, that's just anyone who believes in God, but for C.S. Louis, that was a big thing. He was sure it was atheism before.

But even then, it took another couple of years before he came to understand Christ as his Savior, and that made the big difference. A lot of things changed then. Well, when you did the first Shadowlands, now people should know that, of course, Hollywood did A shadowlands in the 90s. starring Debra Winger as Joy Davidman, Gresham, whatever her name is, and Anthony Hopkins as Lewis. But it was your Shadowlands in 84. You created the idea of Shadowlands.

Yeah, I created the first Shadowlands. I wanted to have someone, I was interested, I just sent a film about a blind and deaf Cornish poet, as you do. And he was a great Christian. And I noticed when I dramatized his life and it went out on the BBC, people took extra interest in him. And I'm sure it was because he'd earned the right to be heard. We're not very good of that Christians, are we?

Earning the right to be heard. When you're talking about the Cornish poet? Yeah, I am. And you're saying he had earned the right to be heard. Yes, because he'd been to Helen back in his life. He hadn't heard or seen in 25 years at that point. It was a great Christian, probably one of the greatest Christians I've ever made. Jack Clemo.

You'll find him in penguin poets. He's dead now. How do you spell Clemo? C-L-E-M-O. Jack Clemo, a Cornish, which is to say English. From Cornwall, the Duchess of. Yes, the Duchess of Cornwall. We never mention her on this program because of the incident with former president, Joe Biden.

So, Jack Clemo, you, look, I don't want to confuse my honest. You've made so many different films over the years, many of which I've seen, but you've done several about Lewis. The one you did Shadowlands in 84 put you on the map, really. You've won many awards, BAFTA awards. What else have you done before? A couple of Emmys. Emmys, Oscars, whatever they call them over there.

But the point is that you've done a few films on Lewis. What are the films you've done on Lewis before this new one? Well, there was a film called Beyond Nanya, which we did a few years ago. And that was, in fact, you saw it and you showed it at a place or two. And it was a great compression, one hour, of Lewis's life and Narnia and his right through to do this. And whose idea was that film? That was actually a group of people called Faith and Values here in New York, but they've now moved on to another title and so on.

But they wanted to do it, and they wanted to explain to the world about Lewis. And they did a pretty good job. It was a worthwhile film. You did an amazing job with that. I remember it was 2006, I guess, when it came out. But I remember you telling me about it and telling me that you were going to have Lewis, which was who was played by... I knew you were going to stop at that, so am I.

I was going to say Anthony, not Anthony Hopkins. It starts with an... It's Tom, the Hot Soup Man. It's one of those names that... Well, we'll come back to it. But the point is, you told me that you were going to... to shoot it with Lewis talking to camera. And I thought, how in the world are you going to do that?

And beyond Narnia, which you're right, we did a Socrates and City event about it, it's so masterful. And was there another Lewis film that you've done since? Yes, there was. Thanks to you, Eric. You may remember you. Ah, I actually, I almost forgot.

You asked me to come along because you'd lost your voice and could I talk to, we call him Spud, but Dr. Ward, he should really be known as. And this is a man who wrote a book called Planet Narnia. And he was wanting to talk to you, Michael Ward, and I came along for a free lunch. Okay, this is actually, I can't believe you brought this up or that I forgot this.

So you made Shadowlands in 1984. 2005, you made Beyond Narnia. So not long after that, yes, Michael Ward, who has written a book called Planet Narnia. Folks, I did a Socrates and the City event with him in Oxford. And the conversation I had with him, at least from my point of view, was one of the most fascinating conversations I have ever had. Go to Socratesandcity.com and watch it.

Because he unpacks a new level of C.S. Lewis's genius. That is, it's not less than astonishing. Absolutely astonishing. But yes, I remember I had health issues back then. as I do now. I was feeling very tired that day. And I remember you were staying with us. And I said, would you come along to the lunch?

I think you'll help me because I'm just, I don't feel up to a full conversation. And so you came along and Dr. Michael Ward. No, no, no, no, no, no. I suggested at some point late in the lunch like a light bulb went off, not literally, but I remember thinking, oh my goodness, how ridiculous. I'm sitting here with a filmmaker. who loves Lewis and with a writer

who's created this new theory, it's not a theory, it's he's proved it about Lewis and you guys should get together and make a film and son of a gun you did and it did extremely well on the BBC and what I was going to say

the BBC snapped it up and it's called what's that one's called the Narnia Code and it really is a fascinating look through the whole history and I'm in it as a talking head I kept you in, Eric. Yes, I did.

As a thank you. I was playing myself. Not very well. Okay, so this is too much. So to bring us back to the film we're discussing right now, the film we're discussing right now is called the Most Reluctant Convert. And in it, to come full circle, playing the role of Vicar, it's a small role, but it's Dr. Michael Ward. It is. I couldn't believe it.

I said, it looks like Michael Ward, but he looks different. And what, I think, I mean, I think he's got, you know, salt and pepper hair that, you know, like a lot of people in our generation, they shave it. So he looks, you know, almost bald or whatever. He's bald, Eric. He's bald. Is he? Well, yeah, but. Okay, but you put on some kind of a wig or something like that. I put a little bit of hair up there and he took photographs that was on his website within seconds.

It looks, he looks so good in this that I thought he needs to go to a full-time wig. Albin, we talked about wigs on this program. But Michael Ward looks so great. It's the greatest thing. All right, we're talking to the director of the most reluctant convert about C.S. Lewis. When we come back, we'll really get into it. Absolutely fascinating. I saw it last night.

I'm trying not to give away anything. But, of course, it's fantastic. I can tell you that much. And we'll be right back talking to Norman Stone. Hey, folks, Eric Metaxis here. Joe Biden and the Democrats have laid out the most socialist agenda our country has ever seen. Instead of following President Trump's blueprint that had the economy booming. The Dems are going to raise taxes, increase regulations, and skyrocket an already outrageous

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866473-6204. Folks, there's a new film about CS-Lewis called The Most Reluctant Convert. I recommend it. Highly, highly, very highly. And I thought, wouldn't it be great to get the director of the most reluctant convert about C.S. Lewis in the studio? Unfortunately, oh, wait a minute. Norman, is that you? It's still me. It's still you. All right, let's keep talking.

I have to plug myself in here. We, the book surprised by Joy, which is C.S. Lewis's, I guess you could call it his autobiography, his memoir. I modeled my own spiritual memoir, fish out of water, on Surprise by Joy, because what I like about Surprise by Joy and what comes out in the film is that Lewis doesn't only talk about spiritual things. He tells you about his whole life. And by giving you the context of who he is and growing up, the epiphany that comes in his later 20s, it has a resonance that it wouldn't have if he just said, let me tell you about God.

And, you know, he goes through the whole story. Very honestly. Yes, very honestly. That's, I was going to say, it's not some spiritual story. It's honest. But you have to be just tremendously familiar with this material by now. I mean, I'm so familiar with it that Suzanne and I watched it last night. And I find myself, I paused it, and I quoted the next line.

And then I hit play, and there's the line. You know, I mean, how many times have I heard versions of this or whatever? So it's something you're very familiar. with, but I would guess it would help you to direct the film. Yes, it did. I mean, it was 1980, I think, when I started preparing for my first Lewis film. So, yeah, I love him to bits. He speaks clearly.

He's got humor. It's truth, truth, truth. Well, you know what the real thing fun was when we were doing Shaddle-Landons back in the early 80s? I met the people that were still there. I met people who knew him, knew joy. I went to tea in a little Miss Marple cottage with a wonderful lady who knew them both. And she just, and they, there's more than one, they just opened up the other side that doesn't get on the page. I love that.

Isn't this crazy? I mean, this happened with Bonhoeffer when I was writing the book on Bonhoeffer. There were a few people left that I was able to visit. And you just think, you know, it's awesome to sit with someone who knew the subject so long dead. Now, of course, in 1980 to 84, Lewis had only been dead for 20 years, which it doesn't seem so long now. But the fact is that there are, you know, there's almost no one. Now, you may remember this. The new film is called The Most Reluctant Convert, but the previous film that you did, Beyond Narnia,

which I recommend very, all of these films, folks, write this down. But beyond Narnia, when we had our Socrates in the City event, we were able to get onto the stage for panel discussion with you and the extraordinary actor Anton Rogers. We'll talk about him in a moment. But Bell Kaufman, she was at the time 94. And Luke 26. She was 94.

She still did ballroom dancing. And she knew Lewis and Joy. Really did. Went to school with Joy. The 30s and 40s. 40s and 50s. And we got to sit with her on the stage and talk about them. There was a lady Eric in Oxford called Gene Wakeman.

She wrote for The Times. And I got connected to her, so I went around. She had a cottage, as they do. And I really liked her. And she talked so well about Joy and Lewis, especially towards the end of their lives. And she'd helped take care of the children, the two boys, when Joy had died. And I wanted to ask her because I had not shot anything yet.

And I said, look, if you read a grief observed, it's such a wonderful book. But there's no hallelujah chorus at the end. And you have other people saying, you know, he probably lost his faith. I think Dickie Attenborough, the director of the Oscar Shaddlelanders probably believed that. Did you just call Sir Richard Attenborough, Dickie Attenborough? Yes. And that's inside baseball, kids. That's inside baseball.

Dickie. Yeah, Dickie Attenborough. He won the Oscar for Shaddleands. Yeah. And he said what? Well, Jane Wakeman, I said, look, just you knew everybody, you were there, you knew and loved the couple. But at the end of his life, did he really regain his faith in that way? She said, oh, yes.

Do you know? She said, he absolutely came back stronger than ever. And there was a pause, and this gave me Shadowlands, the next sentence. She said, but do you know you could always see the scars? Now, as Christians, we don't often talk about that. But that is, she knew him so well. And yes, he got his faith back plus, plus, plus, like Job at the end of his life, I guess.

But you could always see the scars. The scars of Aslan, I guess. Isn't that amazing? It's lovely. It got me to the right focus to start shooting Sheldlands. Wow. That's so beautiful. I just remembered another friend who just passed away

a little bit over a year ago, Thomas Howard. He was one of my dearest friends in the world. In fact, I dedicate my new book to him. His Atheism Dead is dedicated to him and to John Rankin, who also passed a year ago. But Tom Howard visited Lewis at the kilns in, I think, 61 or 62. And he told the story many times. And you just think, I don't know what it is. I think it's the Catholic in all of us that wants to touch the relic,

that wants to touch the person who was in the presence of the person. There's something incarnational about that. Yeah, but as a filmmaker, it's very practical. I mean, if you can get somebody who is there and talks and has memories of what happened, you get, before the publicity gets going, you get the truth. I find that with whatever films I'm making

if it's based on a real person. If you can get that, you're starting to move ahead very fast from that. Wow, it's already time for another break. Folks, don't forget, go to Eric Mattaxas. com, please sign up for the newsletter. We appreciate that. If you tell your friends to do that,

we can reach you more effectively send you these interviews. Eric Mataxis.com. We'll be right back with Norman Stone. The film is the most reluctant convert. Hey, folks, all of you out there know that My Pillow doesn't have box stores or any shopping channels. They've been part of this canceled culture and they want to pass the savings on directly to you. So you can get the lowest price in the history of My Pillow for the classic standard.

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Use promo code Eric to take advantage of Mike's special offer on his standard My Pillo. That's MyPillow.com promo code Eric or 1-800-30578-3057. We're talking about C.S. Lewis and the film is the most reluctant convert. The director of that film, Norman Stone, my friend, is right here. We were just talking about how amazing it is to speak with people who knew C.S. Lewis. I did another Socrates in the city interview with, oh my gosh, I think I had too much pseudofed this morning. I did a three-part series with his secretary. It'll come to me. That's how tired I am today.

Anyway, go to Socrates in the city.com. So in this film, our friend Max McLean stars as Lewis, and it comes from his stage play, does it not, the most reluctant convert? It does. Max got it from Lewis, words for words. He's a very good script writing tailor. He tailored together Lewis's words from, and Max knows Lewis better than anyone. And he created this one-man show.

and then I through various challenges I took six weeks off and worked out how I would do it as a screenplay rather than a stage play and I was led off the leash and I had the best time of my life

well it's yeah Max McLean again he stars as Lewis brilliant what can I say but he he's such a divotay of Lewis that he has a tattoo of puddle glum and also a tattoo of Mrs. Moore Very creepy.

But so he stars, and what he does really is he looks to, thank you for laughing. He looks to a tattoo of Mrs. Moore. Come on. Minto. I like, there are a lot of people that just, they've tuned out. They're listening to Howard Stern or something. Start again. So, but the fact is that in some ways it's a monologue.

The whole thing is framed with him as the older Lewis, who's written this book, talking to camera and then you cut to moments from his life. Now, whose idea was that? Was that Max's idea or your idea? At what point does he come to you? It was all mine.

I have to say, if you don't like it, it's my fault. What I did was, as I say, I was led off the leash creatively, and I'd done a lot of one-man shows with people like Jonathan Price and Jeremy Irons and people, and breaking the fourth wall is when you have someone look through camera.

You mentioned it about Beyond Nania. I like that. So we set it all up. We all know C.S. Lewis isn't going to rise from the grave and come on front of the camera. So we begin it, I won't say too much about it, but we begin it watching the film get set up. And at the end, we come back to reality of that. But if you think of Dickens, I like to think of Dickens. In Christmas Carol, the Ghost of Christmas Past takes the old reprobate back to his school.

And he sees himself, the ruined life old Scrooge, sees himself. off as a youngster left behind in school at Christmas with no one else there because no one wanted him. I always thought that was so much more emotionally strong because he was watching rather than Dickens saying. And he was left to go. So if you think that was basically the inspiration of taking it this way and it's powerful. He starts off with having the normal flashbacks. It is not really a monologue because we have great scenes. I hope are great in his right. Well, it's like a monologue, but then it keeps cutting. He is our guide and story. That's right. Okay.

And from a person might have view. And then before you know it, he's actually appearing in the background of his memories. Then he's almost interrupting himself, his younger self. Yeah. And it became quite a fascinating style, which I would like to pursue some more. Yeah, it was a wild thing when at the end he's in the church where the young version of him is taking communion. But he is in the church and speaking. I mean, look, there's so much to this.

Now, we've got to go back. There were some scenes with, I guess we should tell the audience, because not everybody is familiar with us the way we are. Lewis's life, I mean, it is fascinating, and it's the story of his book, Surprised by Joy, but he has a very, let's just go through this. His mother dies when he's very young, devastating. His father is a real character, not necessarily in the good sense,

and was very tough to deal with, I guess, Lewis and his brother. He's the one with a tattoo of Puddledum. Puttledum tattoo on his back. Now, he was a Welsh by blood, and he never quite got over his wife's death. Right. And as he says, a person who has just lost his, I started again, a person who has just lost his wife has to be very wise to, to bring up two brothers who share their own memories and their own thoughts together but not with him.

Well, what I noticed, though, was that now the two boys, we should say, Warnie, who was, what, two years older than Lewis or something, and C.S. Lewis, Jack, they were very close through their whole lives. They lived together until Lewis's death. But it really is disturbing to say. see the father be unable to get over his grief and in a way to take it out on the kids, not meaning to, but some of that is also funny. When he's ranting at them, when they're sitting on the couch for having done almost nothing,

but he's ranting at them as though they had, I mean, that was funny. Well, he was a, he did speak in court. He was a legal mind, and he took to any audience, including two naughty children. But I think, yes, somebody said to me once when I first did Shadlands, they said, but how can you have humor? She's dying of cancer. And I said, well, that's exactly why we need humor. If you go too glum face about it,

and it was so here. And the actor that played the father was very, very good with that. So there are these two boys, no motherly connection at all after she died, of course. And the father is giving oratory to them, terrible exaggerations and shock horror.

And they, in the end, just thought he was ridiculous. In the end, I think they took them very seriously. But if you're paying attention, it's funny. That's the whole, I mean, it is definitely funny. Then, of course, he goes off to be with the famous teacher, the great, called the Great Knock, Kirkpatrick. And where was that?

I can't remember. Where did he come? Yeah, where did he go to? Surrey, a little village in Surrey. And strangely, that teacher had tutored his own father. He was an excellent tutor. And then Warnie, his brother, who wasn't known for being. brilliant academically, went to him for less than a year, I think,

and then got straight into a very, very high college with a honors. So he obviously did it. Lewis went out of there, couldn't wait to get away from home, I suspect, and got involved with this guy. He said he was a Presbyterian atheist. He wore a better suit on Sundays. I mean, it's just, a lot of it is funny, very funny. Okay, we're going to continue the story with Norma.

Norman Stone. If people want to find the film, where do they go? Where do they go? Where do they go? They go to c.s.luismovie.com. How easy. CS.lewismovie.com. We'll be right back. Hey, get rhythm. When you get the blues. Come on, get rhythm. Get it, folks. We're going to drag my friend, Norman Stone, the director, into the second hour. And there's nothing he can do about it. This is the end of the first hour. Norman, we were earlier, and I didn't want to forget, it was Walter Hooper, my goodness, who was Lewis's

secretary right at the end of his life and who really was responsible for keeping Lewis's literary legacy alive. I mean, it's an amazing story, and if you want to know the story, I interviewed Walter Hooper at Socratesandthe City.com, which you can watch for free. I want my audiences to become aware of Lewis because he's a treasure. He's just an absolute treasure. Every part of him, all of his work, all these films you've made, it's a great investment for any family. You're right about Walter.

I mean, without him, we would have had very little of the later work of Lewis. He rescued it from a bonfire, for goodness sake. Literally. Literally. I'm not kidding. And then, of course. Yeah, and he was also great, you met him, I met him. He had great insights.

He was with Lewis during the last few, I guess, weeks of his life, but then knew everything about him. He curated his history, but he knew it in heart. Yeah. So it wasn't a technical. No, it's really, it's beautiful. And of course, you hear this all the time, but people who are Catholic always say, Lewis was on his way. He would have become a Roman Catholic.

We believe he was moving in that direction. And of course, Walter Hooper said that to me in an interview, or maybe Michael Ward said it to me an interview. And I said, I really believe he would have become assemblies of God. I have information that he was going in that direction. So don't give me that baloney. But he would have been Smith Wigglesworth, too. But anyway, so this film, the most reluctant convert, takes us through his life. Let's just keep going because after he spends time with the Great Knott,

and he really flowers, he blooms, he goes to Oxford, he's brilliant, but then he falls in with J.R.R. Tolkien, how do we pronounce it? Tolkien. Tolkien. And Hugo Dyson and Owen Barfield, all of whom are Christians, and then everything he reads, everything he loves, whether it's by Chesterton or George McDonald, they're all Christians. So he really

He kind of gets trapped. He met them straight head on, these friends, that became the inklings, of course, the writing group. But he met them and argued with them, as you do in Oxford. And he was honest. When they cracked open his theories and proved them wrong, he took it and moved on. And I think it's one of the most wonderful things.

If you read the book, he goes into it in great detail. This man was seeking after truth. He began with atheism. grudgingly, so grudgingly, he gave way to theism, so a terrible thing for him to believe in a God that has lots of implications. And he ends up as a full Christian, and his life changed, his writing changed,

and actually the lights got turned on. Well, the part where he just talks about being, there are a couple of moments, and you don't dramatize them in the film, but there's the famous moment where he's on the upper deco, a bus and he feels as though something is happening to him. And I would say it's the Holy Spirit. There's no other way around it. God is doing something in him and giving him the choice. Do I let God

in or do I keep him out? And I have free will. I can do what I like. He lets God in. But then he says he almost felt that he didn't have a choice, that it just, it felt natural. He had to do this. It would have been violation of himself and truth. And that's, of course, before he accepts Jesus, but which will come to in the second hour. It's a privilege to speak with my friend Norman Stone, the director, most recently of the most reluctant convert. You can find it at c.s. Lewismovie.com. You must find it. Go to c.sluismovie.com. Check it out, and we'll be back with more.