The Eric Metaxas Show - Os Guinness (continued)

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Os Guinness continues outlining the possible fate of the West using discoveries found in his new book, "The Magna Carta of Humanity: Sinai's Revolutionary Faith and the Future of Freedom."

Welcome to the Eric Metaxus show with your host, Eric Metaxus. As you were just bringing up an issue. I was so glad to hear you bring it up because I'd forgotten. But oftentimes we hear people with tremendous vatidity talking about the early church and comparing where we are now to the early church. And I think what could be more preposterous? The early church was horrifically persecuted under the Roman Empire. So the idea that we can act the way they did, in some ways it's just preposterous. But people don't seem to really understand these historical parallels. I don't know if that's where you were going.

But please continue your thought. No, it was indeed where I was going, because the early church, of course, could not engage politically. They were under a dictatorship of the Roman Caesars and the Roman Empire. As you say, many of them paid for it with their life. But it's so foolish because they don't know the old. Testament, and above all the way the Old Testament, is the precedent and the blueprint for America. So just as in the covenant in Exodus, every Jew responsible for every Jew. So in the American experiment, every American responsible for the American experiment. We, the people, a collective

responsibility, and so on. So it's both a lack of faithfulness in the world. terms of being the Lordship of Christ acted out in society, but also a complete failure to understand American citizenship. Now, of course, citizenship hasn't been taught. So you take, say, the immigration issue. Is it the wall or is it sanctuary cities? In all the debate I've heard in Washington for 30-odd years now, nobody mentions citizenship. The point of boundaries is identity. You've got a who you are. And as Samuel Huntingdon used to say, it's still relatively easy and even easier under President Biden to get your naturalization papers, become American. But it's increasingly difficult to know what it is to be American. And we should know what it means to be a Christian, a follower of

Jesus, and know what it is to be an American a citizen of this great republic, but people don't. So Christians are failing drastically. I think the scandal in America, this is the one country in the Western world where Christians are a huge majority. And yet thoroughly non-influential, I said that before, but are wonderful Jewish friends, 2% of America. But to their credit, they punch above their weight intellectually, financially, financially, culturally, and all sorts of ways. And we who are a huge majority and called to be. salty and light-bearing do nothing. And Christians who are disengaging, well, they will get the government of the future they deserve, including an historic squandering of freedom.

Well, you know, you're, because you're English, you're not in favor of mentioning names, but I mention the names of people that I think of as friends. Yeah. But for a reason, because people get all caught up with Bush, or you mentioned David Brooks and Ross Dath. People get all caught up with personalities, whereas you need to get them to think the big picture, regardless of individuals. Well, I mean, I mean to do that, but the reason I mentioned people, I was just going to mention John Piper and Tim Keller. These are people that I think of with the deepest respect and admiration and friendship, but they who are intellectually brilliant don't seem. to understand what you're talking about.

And I think people look to leaders because they say, I can't figure everything out. So I'm with that one or that one. And as they go, many go. And I think that that's fascinating to me that we have people like that who don't seem to see what's at stake. Or I mean, in the case of maybe John Piper or John McCarthy, it's almost as if they like the idea of person. It's a pure kind of Christianity maybe in their minds. They don't say that, but they seem to

act as though, you know, the kingdom of God has to be divorced. The faith has to be divorced from these petty political things and that it's theoretically maybe beneath them to make those connections. That's kind of what I pick up. It's the only way I can explain what I see. No, I agree with you. And, you know, they might agree with you and me. And I am free to agree with them. But we're all challenged to go back to those of us are Christians to understand the roots of our faith and all its consequences. And those of you who are Americans, I'm not, I'm a admirer, to go back and understand what it should be. And many people can't do that today, which is really quite extraordinary. So I'm afraid of you. The, the, but it's just so strange because, you know,

folks that I've mentioned, they're all tremendously influential. And I think that the issue really becomes that maybe they don't appreciate, I'm sure they don't appreciate what's at stake. I think a lot of people, the never Trumpers, they all seem to act as though everything's fine. We're not at any kind of a precipice. Everything will go back to normal. They don't seem to be horrified at the idea that if Hillary Clinton had been elected,

whatever you think of her as a person, what she represented is bringing in justices of the Supreme Court. She could have nominated three who are, they're not just maybe not entirely dependable. They're perfectly dependable to vote with those who are not originalists, who are not constitutionalists. That is a deep, fundamental, structural danger to everything we have. But there are plenty of people, brilliant people, who don't seem to have appreciates. that danger. That's what doesn't make sense to me. No, I'm with you. It's the old frog in the kettle

syndrome again. You know, as I said, I grew up in China. I have zero naivety about Marxism. You know, when I was a student and later after I got married and so on, used to visit Russia, the Soviet Union and the people who oppressed in East Germany and Czechoslovakia and Poland and so on. So I have seen how Marxism works. And let's be absolutely clear, whether it's that or the collapse of democracy, you had, you know, this last week, the Secretary of State telling people around the world about the importance of independent journalism. The sheer rank hypocrisy of the same party squelching journalism and its freedom in this country. Yes, I think we're at a most extraordinary moment. But for myself, I try and broaden it without personalities.

And I think if, you know, the former president was still in power, I would say over specific policies, thank God for this, that and the other. He did many wonderful things. And he, as you said, had a instinctual awareness of what was wrong on the other side. But we should have also said, Mr. President, your discourse, your language, your tweets, demeaning, people, insulting people. That's what the Hebrew scriptures would call evil speech. And the rabbis would call tantamount to murder. In other words, Christians should have challenged him as well as congratulated him. And I think if we'd done both well, you know, we wouldn't be tarnished today. So I try and keep it away from the personalities to get people back to thinking first principles.

That's what's at stake. Well, I certainly agree with you, Oz. The only, the, the, The only place where I would differ, I think, is that because Trump was so outrageously attacked, I've never seen anything like it. I just thought, what can I possibly add? You know, it's like somebody is being hit by artillery and you're there with a peace shooter to point out something. It doesn't, I've never seen anything like it. And so I just don't know how it would have helped. But, I mean, obviously, I agree with you. And that's, it's, it's an issue.

We'll see where we will. Let me turn it around, Eric. Let me turn it around. If you go back to the scriptures, old and new, notions like human worth made in the image of God, truth, words, freedom, justice, peace. These all have an incredible richness and depth that is unrivaled. I mean, you take our atheist friends. friends, they have no grounding for freedom, or we take our friends on the left, or our opponents on the left. They talk justice, but their views go in entirely different directions.

Christians, certainly Jews, too, we should go out with confidence, get off the back foot. This is a time when the good news of the Bible as a whole, and certainly Jesus, is the best news ever for humanity. Let's leave it there. We'll be right back, folks. I'm talking to Oz Guinness. The book is Magna Carta of Humanity. Please get a copy. Hey there, folks. How many years have I been telling you about relief factor? What, like four?

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I'm still astonished that what we have goes back to Moses. I mean, it's an amazing thing. If you go around the state capitals in America, you will see murals of Moses holding up the law. But it hasn't been taught for 50 years. You certainly will not hear it in public discourse. the leading pastors in America don't mention this or don't seem to mention this. I don't hear the sermons of some of the leading pastors in America, but they don't seem to mention it. And they seem to be drifting along with a kind of now it's a woke narrative that would expunge the biblical roots of America. In fact, they hardly ever talk about patriotism as though, because some people call that a dirty word or think of it in negative ways. Even they won't mention it.

They don't want to touch on anything that might smack of, you know, chest beating nationalism. It's really kind of pathetic in a way that they have allowed themselves to go that far because what you're saying is this is inescapable. This is at the heart of every good thing that we have in the nation. Absolutely. It's unique. It's distinctive. And it's an incredible answer for humanity. So I argue in the book that this notion is the once and future key to freedom in the sense you don't understand the American experiment. It's inexplicable without understanding, say, the covenant. But equally, you can't have freedom in the future in any solid way without understanding it. So we who care about humanity, care. about justice, freedom, words, and these things. We need to explore them and then go out with courage and declare these things and argue with them and prevail in arguments against either the crazies and the left or whoever else doesn't want to understand them.

This is an incredible moment for humanity. Well, I mean, you know, again, you don't like to mention names, but I think that the New York Times has pushed the 1619 project. They have been at the forefront of this wicked, rewriting of truth and fact and history. The New York Times, we have friends that work at the New York Times that have prominent names and pedigrees at the New York Times. It strikes me that they can't understand what's at stake because I'm sure they're not willing to risk whatever it is that they have to bring this up. I don't see there are tons of leaders that are not willing to push back because they really act as though, well, this is, it's not as big a deal as Oz Guinness or Ermataxis would make it. It's not that everything's at stake. It's just one of those swings of the pendulum. I don't see it as a swing of the pendulum. I see it as the potential end of everything that allows us to have what was once a free press.

No, and I've got that actually in my ending of the book. This is not a swing. This is not a cycle. This is something very close to the end. The Republic, as opposed to democracy, we could argue about that, as opposed to a powerful nation. The Republic is on its last legs. Let's make no mistake about that. The American Republic, this great experiment in ordered freedom, is on its last legs. Democracy, approaching it, but America will survive.

So people in the New York Times, I don't mind mentioning institutions, not only say the 1619 project, some of the op-ed writers, you know how Barry Weiss was treated and so on. So there are many of our intellectual class who are either ignorance or committed to these ideas, and they're part of what will come. Now, you remember the notion of judgment in the scriptures, The notion of judgment is not God's arbitrarily zapping people whom he doesn't like. It's either his leaving them or sometimes driving them to the logic of their own settled choices. So let's be clear.

America is on the verge of driving God out and equally of driving out all that's there in the biblical roots of the American experiment. And judgment, in other words, retribution, the harvest of the consequences of our choices is on the way. So you take the sexual revolution and say the transgender stuff today. The harvest of confusion of identity and the breakdown of families and social cohesion will be absolutely extraordinary. And as James Bryce, Lord James Price, predicted years ago, America would suffer what he called, if religion were to fail, the completest revolution of all. Unravelling, unfraying, the breakdown. In other words, make no mistake, retribution is on the way, unless there's a turning round. Well, many people have said that apart from genuine revival,

all is lost, I'm hopeful enough or maybe naive enough to think that revival is on the horizon, that things have gotten so bad that many people, many of them who don't have columns in the Post or the New York Times, many of these people simply know that apart from revival, we are lost and they're desperate. And I think maybe that's a good thing. Some of the things that are happening now, already we're seeing judgment. I mean, what is going on, whether it is a pipeline being hacked, whoever thought that a pipeline could be hacked, that everything would be so controlled by computers that malevolent hackers with keyboards could cause long gas lines in the United States of America. I mean, it makes the 70s look mild in comparison.

because that was a real problem. This is a computer hacking problem. Long gas lines, Israel on the verge of war, crisis at the border, you name it. I wonder if these things are driving people to the desperation of saying, God, we need you to help. Apart from you, we can't do it. Absolutely. And I believe strongly in revival and awakening.

You know, I think I may have told you before, my great-grandfather, who's the grandson of Arthur Ginnis the Brewer, at the age of 23, he was in the Irish Revival of 1859, which started with a prayer group of four in the little town of Kells. But we have newspaper accounts of my great-grandfather, 23 years old, standing on carriages, no microphone, with crowds of 20 or 30,000. and then the Holy Spirit fell. And it's recorded in the North of Ireland. Island was not divided in those days, of course. In the north of Ireland, there was only one recorded crime in the year after the revival. In other words, it was profound spiritually, and it was very profound ethically and socially. So I strongly believe in the power of revival.

Go ahead. Sorry. Well, I'm just astonished that what you are. You said, I mean, I've heard of Whitfield drawing crowds of 20 and 30,000 without a microphone, but your great grandfather at age 23 was able to speak. That really is amazing. What was his name again so we can look him up? Henry Grattan, Guinness.

Henry Bratton, Guinness. Grattan. He was named after the Irish politician, Henry Grattan. Gratton. And, you know, later in his life, he was one of the evangelicals. Zionists, and as you know, the Christian Zionists fought for the restoration of the Jews to their homeland before the Jews did. So in the 1860s, my great-grandfather, along with people like Lord Shaft 3, raised money to allow the Jews to go back to Palestine to start over again before Herzl.

And he wrote a book in the 1870s, predicting that 1917 would be a crucial year in the restoration of the Jews. And General Allenby, who actually restored Jerusalem, freed it from the Turks. General Alambi had read my great-grandfather's book. So there were extraordinary people, South of Victorians. What did he find in 1917? Is that a biblical prophecy? Did he add things up that way? why did he say 1917 50 years before?

Well, he and several others in the so-called historical school of biblical interpretation, arguing from Daniel and the work of people like Newton and other astrologers, said that the times of the Gentiles and all that would run out in 1917. And amazingly, Lord Balfour, we know him because of the Balfour Declaration, gave the Jewish homeland back to them, He had read my great-grandfather's book and correspond with my great-grandfather. My great-grandfather died in 1910, so he never saw it. But in our family Bible, his Bible, he's written.

And the next great event would be 1948. Okay, now we're going to go to a break and we're going to come back and hear more Guinness history. This is amazing, Oz. We'll be right back. Prescription dispensing Labs is a national licensed pharmacy specializing in personalized prescription and natural medicine. The pharmacists at PD Labs are credited with formulating unique nasal sprays for the dreaded brain fog and a leader in uncovering new compounds to improve your health. PD Labs is one of the first pharmacies to now offer a telemedicine group trained in prevention medicine and how to restore your health. They have developed signature professional supplements that really work rather than just promotional advertising.

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Oz Guinness, my guest, Oz, you know, it's funny. I have to have friends on my radio program to learn things because we never seem to have enough time. Well, you just told me about your great-grandfather, Henry Grattan Guinness, is amazing. what is the title of the book that he wrote? I imagine it's available through eBay or something. Hundreds of pages long. It's called The Approaching End of the Age. And he wrote another book called Light for the Last Days.

Now, a lot of that notion was discredited by the so-called futurist predictions of, you know, people like Hal Lindsay in the 1960s. So it's under a cloud today. But my great-grandfather got it right twice. And not only that, his writings were very significant behind General Alambi and the liberation of Jerusalem. So he was a passionate supporter of the Jewish people. And as you know, the tragedy of the church is its persecution of the Jews horrendously. The Catholic Inquisitions or the Orthodox pogroms in Russia.

But thank God that the Reformation, Luther was terrible. but Calvin and then Cromwell and then the Dutch above all. And then people like William Wilberforce, as you know. And then Lord Shaftsbury and my great-grandfather, they were champions of the Jews. It's amazing. I just want to reiterate for folks that didn't catch it. Your great-grandfather, Henry Grattan Guinness, in the 19th century, predicted from Scripture that the year is 1917, and 1948 would be significant for the Jews and Israel.

Of course, 17 is the Balford Declaration. 48 is the founding of the modern state of Israel. It's incredible that in the 19th century, your grandfather, the great-grandfather, using scripture, predicted those dates. Did he say anything else? I'm just fascinated to hear this. You said a lot of other things,

but those were the key ones that stood out. His astrological tables are still used in many astronomers today and so on. Now, when you say astrological, a lot of people red flags will go up. What do you mean by that? Astronomical, I should have said, not astrological. You meant astronomical. Astronomical. And how does he get into astronomy?

In other words, I don't know that I've heard how that comes into the picture. Well, the Reformation and Isaac Newton and many people, you know, explored all the book of Daniel, the book of revelation, and all that in the light of astronomy. And one of the key breakthroughs was when a Swiss astronomer, I think his name was Shizzo, understood how the solar and the lunar calendars converged on certain years. And it fits in. I'm not an expert in any of that and actually have very little interest in it. although I'm amazed by my character of a great-grandfather, you know, in his early years, he was an evangelist. In his later years, what we've just discussed.

In his middle years, he knew Hudson Taylor, the missionary to China. And when he was 30, he said to Hudson Taylor, I want to volunteer to go to China with you. Hudson Taylor said, no. At 30, you're too old for China. The rigors are too much. but Hudson Taylor said to him, stay at home and send out missionaries. So he founded the first modern missionary training college. He founded three missionary societies and in the course of a number of decades,

sent out 1,500 missionaries to Africa, Latin America, to China and so on. But if you look back at the industry, the entrepreneurialism of our Victorian forebears whom we often despise, They are incredible. And my great-grandfather's quite seriously, the giant in our clan, quite an extraordinary character. You know, his wife said he was always brooding on great schemes, a great entrepreneur of faith. It's truly amazing. I mean, I know that, you know, in your background, you have the brewery family and then the missionaries, but I've never heard this side of it. But the brewers were Christian.

Well, no, I know, but I also know that they were out and out missionaries, but I've never heard until now of your great grandfather. You said he died in 1910. In 1910, yes. His son was one of the leading reformers against the horrors of the Belgian Congo. Take say Joseph Conrad's heart of darkness and so on. He fought that, arguing with the king of Belgium and so on. I mean, the atrocities there were horrendous, and it was missionaries who alerted the world to it. You know, one of his my grandfather's sisters, you know, talked about England's national sin in the face of Queen Victoria, opium trade, the British Opium War with China.

In other words, the Christians were the reformers, as you know well. It wasn't just Wilberforce. Shaftsbury. People go to, you know, Shaftsbury's great memorial at Piccadilly Circus. people think it's eros, the god of frivolous love. It's actually a statue of antiros, the god of caring love. And at the bottom of the statue, you can read why. It's a tribute to Lord Shaftesbury, the poor man's earl who cared for the poor.

It's just, it's amazing. We're going to go to another break, folks. I have the privilege of some time today with Oz Guinness. the book is Magna Carta of Humanity. The previous books in this trilogy, Last Call for Liberty, and the first one, Free People's Suicide.

Please check them out. We'll be right back. Oz Guinness is my guest. The book is Magna Carta of Humanity. Oz, I want to get back to. that, but not before I ask you to connect the dots. You mentioned your great-grandfather, Henry Groton Guinness. You mentioned your grandfather and his sister. What was his name? My grandfather was called Whitfield after the great George Whitfield. And he was a doctor,

went out to China, and we have an incredible story of his survival in the box of riots, and then later his visiting the Forbidden City and the Empress Dowager. say he was quite extraordinary. So this is around the turn of the century, 1900. He survived that in 1900, and he died of typhus as a doctor in China. He was treating someone, no one else would treat, and tragically caught the disease himself. When was that? In 1927.

Unbelievable. So your father, so what is the lineage? In other words, was your family continuously in China all this? time, or were you back and forth? Because I know that you were born in China. Yeah, basically, they were continuous in China. From my grandfather, who married a Swedish aristocrat from their time onwards, our family was there. So I was born during the war with Japan, with two brothers, and we had on one side, the Japanese army who had killed 17 million in the invasion. And then we had the communist army a little further away. And then,

on the other side, the nationalist army, so-called Free China. And we were caught in an area which suffered this terrible famine. I think I said that to you before. But Teddy White says that five million died in three months, including my two brothers. So we survived that and then moved to Nanking, which was the capital then of Free China. And so that's when I, as a seven-year-old, remember two years under Mao and the reign of terror. You were born in 42. How old were your brothers when they died?

41. How old were your brothers when they died? One was three and a half and one was just one. You've never spoken of that. I don't know. Do you remember that, Oz? I remember them, my older brother, very vaguely. But it was more, you know, when we survived,

it came to the place where my parents had to evacuate. Others came through. My younger brother died and had to leave the next morning and bury him. But we found ourselves in a sea of 10 million refugees. And I was either carried in a sort of cart or a wheelbarrow. My father had made for some old cycle tires only kept alive because a goat herd caught up with us said because they venerated doctors. They were superstitious. Doctors were almost magical. So if they were with my mother, who was a surgeon, they would be safe. But in fact, through the

scrawny goats that came with us, I survived and made it on goat's milk. And we made our way through hundreds of miles across China and then we're able to get to Chongqing and fly over the Himalayas to India and then safety. So it was quite a time. The The point is, I grew up, I never once in all those years, 10 years there, ever saw my parents ruffled, frightened, or anything but trusting. And they were the one, my father particularly, gave me the idea, God is greater than all. He can be trusted in all situations. Have faith in God, have no fear.

And I just saw that mirrored in my parents. So the realism about human evil, including Marxism, but the human, you know, quiet trust in God, however bad things are, was stamped on me very early. It's extraordinary. I'm just so glad we had this time because I have not heard some of this before. And it's just very important understanding who you are, you know, this man that has written these books and spoken to so many people to understand how you come to be where you are, not just your faith, but intellectually and then experientially, having gone through these horrors. And you did say, because you've seen where Marxism goes, where these things

tend toward, I've said it myself in my book, Fish Out of Water, which just came out. My mother and father experienced the horrors of war and having no food. And when you've seen that, you have a more realistic view. And I do think many Americans, as you said earlier, we've been so blessed. that we kind of think this is normal. And what we have here is not normal, and it's going away. And if we don't understand it, and if we don't understand what it takes to keep the Republic, it will go away.

And so, you know, you and I are doing our best to help people understand that this isn't normal, that we've been mightily blessed, and we're going to squander it. We're in the process of squandering it unless we understand what it is that we have to preserve. So the book is, is Magna Carta of Humanity, Oz, we've just got a few minutes in this segment and then one short segment. What have we not yet covered about the book Magna Carta of Humanity?

Well, I would urge people to wrestle and explore freedom. Everyone loves freedom, but it's much trickier to understand and even trickier to live than people think. And so in the books I've got, for example, the paradox of freedom, the greatest enemy of freedom is freedom. Well, the simple fact, you know, one of the most quoted stayings in Washington on many monuments, eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. And everyone thinks, of course, so we must have strong armies and watch out for enemies coming from overseas.

No. The real point of that, we have to be vigilant internally, not externally, because we are the main problems of freedom and so on. So freedoms are fascinating, wonderful topic, and the deepest roots of it are in the scripture. And so everyone is Jewish or a follower of Jesus, a Christian, we should be in the forefront of exploring, rediscovering, standing for freedom. It's a magnificent idea, and it's in peril. Well, it's largely thanks to you that I'm aware of the things that I talk about.

and my book, If You Can Keep It, the Forgotten Promise of American Liberty, that was principally, you know, kicked out into the world because of my reading your book Free People's Suicide. As I often always almost say, the most amazing thing is not that we don't know these things, but that we don't know that we don't know them. We have to remind ourselves that these things that we don't know. many people are talking about are really foundational. We're going to be right back. Final segment. Folks, the book is Magna Carta of Humanity, the third in a trilogy. I hope you will get it.

Folks, I'm still talking to Oz Guinness. Wonderful to have this time. Oz, thank you. You wanted to touch on the issue of justice. Would you do that? Well, so many people hearing the word justice, as I said, jump to their feet and salute. And they don't examine the thinking, the process is, the radical left. So as you know, if we read their stuff, what they do is analyze discourse. Who's the majority? Who's the minority? Who are the oppressors? Who's the victim? And the victim is usually not an individual considered precious for himself, but rather a prop or a pawn, weaponized in order to try and overthrow the status quo. But if you examine their thinking, Basically, it's all about power and groups.

And you set up a power conflict, which will only end, as the Romans put it, in the peace of despotism. In other words, when you have a power able to put down all other powers, authoritarian. And so the logic of the radical left is authoritarianism. And as we know with modern technology, that means totalitarianism. Well, let me just interrupt to say, think of the irony. people that were accusing Trump of being authoritarian or fascist, whatever it is. The tremendous irony is that the very people who were most pointedly opposed to him are, in fact, themselves power mongers. They are not liberty mongers or genuine justice mongers.

They are power mongers who will actually take away the ordered liberty that we have. I mean, this is the irony. and it's really that it's, it's ironic, but it's also kind of a satanic subversion of words. Absolutely. Now, viewed from outside or above, it's irony. You're exactly right. But viewed, as it were, face to face, it's hypocrisy. In other words, they criticize everyone but themselves.

And if critical theory was to criticize critical theory, we would expose it for what it is. It's hypocritical, it's evil. as I say again and again, the revolutions never work and the oppression never ends. Beware. And we need people I was talking to a friend in England this morning who had written cautions about Black Lives Matter and wokeness. And I said, cautions, no. You need to look at what it really is in the white of the eye and name it for what it is. It is evil. Osginis calls BLM evil. headline. As you know, I have to tell you, I say more and more publicly, I say that if you care about

black lives, if you care about the urban poor, the gospel commands you to speak out against those things which are the enemies of the poor. And that would be cultural Marxism and right now Black Lives Matter. If you don't do that and denounce socialism and cultural Marxism, you're going along with the flow, which is actually harming black American lives. Absolutely. But put it this way. You know, as our Jewish friends point out, one of the mysteries of history is why no one stood against the abuse of power until the Hebrew prophets. Amos, Micah, Osea, Isaiah, you name it. They stood against the abuse of power because people were made in the image of God and shouldn't be treated like that. And then, of course, you have Las Casas in the 16th century.

World War Forces, you know well, and so on. The great reformers and champions of justice are followers of Jesus or follows of the Hebrew scriptures. So we've got to be absolutely clear. The confusion is diabolical. Marxism is literally evil. I'm not saying that people in Black Lives Matter are evil, but they know what they're doing and they know what's behind it. I'm, we're out of time. I'm glad you use the word evil because a lot of people shrink from that. We have to understand, folks, there is not only such a thing as evil, but when it's around us, we need to understand it and call it evil. Oz, just a privilege to get this much time with you. I'm so grateful to you for making the time. I hope everyone who's watching this or listening to this

will share it with everyone they know. Please do that, folks. Os Ginnis, thank you. Thank you, Eric. Always enjoy.