The Eric Metaxas Show - Pastor Anthony Thompson (Encore)

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

After grieving his wife’s murder in the 2015 Charleston church mass shooting, Pastor Anthony Thompson reflects on how true biblical love and mercy differ from the way these ideas are reflected in our culture in the book borne from his pain, “Called to Forgive.” (Encore Presentation)

Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. Please keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times. This is your final warning. Now here's your host, Mr. Thrill Ride himself, Eric Mataxis. Hey there, folks. I got to tell you, we kind of mix it up on this show. We do comedy, we do tragedy, we talk about everything we hope that will concern you who are listening. Today, we have something that is unspeakably difficult to discuss.

us and ultimately unspeakably beautiful. I'm sitting in the studio today with someone I've just had a privilege to meet. You know about his story.

Four years ago there was a horrific shooting. Nine people were murdered in a church in Charleston. You may have heard that many of those folks, while they were praying, while they're doing a Bible study were murdered by this young man, Dylan Roof. And out of this horror came something that most of us cannot imagine.

A number of the people who were the victims of this whose family members were killed, chose to privately and publicly forgive the murderer. I can't get my head around that. But fortunately, I have in the studio, Pastor Anastor, Anthony Thompson, whose wife, Myra, was killed that day. He's written a book called Called to Forgive is the title of the book. Pastor Thompson, welcome. Thank you so very much for having me this morning.

It's so difficult for anybody to comprehend what you've been through because we don't want to comprehend it. It's just such agony to think about somebody going through what you went through. So let's get into your story. First of all, you're a pastor. You've been a pastor. Your wife, Myra, who was killed, was also pursuing ministry. Yes. You have children?

Yes, we have one daughter, two boys. Okay, so three kids. So tell us the story. I mean, before you get to forgiveness, which is itself a staggering thought, given what you went through, where were you before this? How did this unfold in your life? Well, before this actual tragedy, my wife and I were making plans, of course, for her to, after pursuing the ministry at the AME Church, to become a minister and probably work right there at Emmanuel AME Church while I continue my ministry at Holy Trinity Reform Episcopal Church. So you're a pastor at a different church in Charleston. Yes.

And how long have you been at that church? I've been at Holy Trinity since 2010. I've been in the ministry for about 25, 30 years. Are you a lifelong Charleston resident? Yes, I was born and raised in Charleston, South Carolina. That is my home. One of the most beautiful cities I've ever visited. I've had the privilege of visiting a number of times

and speaking in a number of churches there, and it's just a remarkable place. So when I heard this news, it hit me in a more personal way then it would have if it happened in a different city because I've been in a number of those churches and just feel a connection, such a sweet place. Well, how did you find out about this? You were not at the church, at this AME church, when this took place? No, I was not present. I wanted to be there for some reason.

She kept telling me not to come. And it was... What do you mean? Well, she and I always went everywhere together, especially we're speaking. especially having her Bible study for the first night, but for some reason, she kept telling me not to come. Wait, wait. You said that your wife, Myra, who is pursuing ministry, this was her first Bible study. She was teaching her first Bible study at the church. At the church.

And she kept telling you not to come. Why? Why? Well, I'm not certain. I found out afterwards it was, you know, God's desires. but initially I didn't understand why because she and I always went everywhere together, especially when we were participating in a special event like she was that night. You know, it was just mutual understanding that I would be there. But some reason she, we went back and forth with she started up for about 15 minutes, you know, saying I'm coming, no, you're not coming. I'm coming, no, you're not coming.

Wow. Yeah. So obviously you didn't go and you were. Where were you at home or at your church? I was at my church. You know, she knew what buttons to push. She explained to me I needed to be at my church because we were having our vacation Bible study

for the first night for children. And she thought maybe a lot of drama would be going on there with the ladies at the church. So she advised that I go there, which she convinced me to go. But I still was thinking about leaving there and attending the Bible study at the Miami Church. However, I never had a chance to do that.

So I just went home after my vacation Bible study class, thinking she would be there because she normally gets home before I do. So you go home that night and then I suppose the phone rings. Yes. It was a member from Emmanuel Church telling me to go to the church because they were shooting at the church. So I dropped the phone. I ran out of the house and got down near to the church because we live maybe five minutes away from. from the church, I was like maybe first person, one of the first people on the scene. And at first they advised me that the members had been sent over to a hotel adjacent to the church. So I went there looking for her. I had to realize that she wasn't there.

That's when I just ran to the church, tried to get into the church. And I got close to the door and someone snatched me back. And I found it was an FBI agent telling me I don't want to go in there. Of course, that was a tough battle. because it took five people to hold me down to keep me from going inside the church. Once I discovered that my wife had been killed, that's what I just lost control.

I just lost all control for the first time in my life, and I just cried and wall over the ground. I would think that's the normal human reaction to something that horrible. I don't want to think past that. But you receive what is obviously horrifying news. It's one thing to be told that someone has died, but the idea that someone was killed in these circumstances,

did you hear immediately who had done this or why he had done this? Because it's still, there's no actual reason. There's no possible reason. This is just a kind of a madness and evil. There's no explaining it. But when did you begin to hear the details of who this was and what had happened? Well, that particular night, no one knew exactly who did it. Really didn't find out until the next day.

And I really didn't concentrate on who he was or what his name was until we got to the bond hearings. When I heard his name for the first time, of course, I did not want to be at that bond hearing. What is a bond hearing? What do you mean? Bond hearing is where they take an offender to where a bond is placed on him in order for him. in order for him to get out of jail, he had to pay a certain amount of money, or have to have someone bond him out. And obviously that's not happening.

No, that didn't happen. Of course not. It's a standard procedure. I see. And that was the following day? Well, it was 48 hours. Within 48 hours, he had a bond hearing. And this is when my children kept urging me to go, which I did not want to go,

because I was an agent for 27 years myself, and I took many people to bond. hearings. You were an agent? Yes, I was probation parole agent for the state of South Carolina. Okay. So you knew all about this? Yes. I didn't see no importance of going because I knew he would receive a bond. They were taken back to a cell. So I didn't see the importance of being there. But your parents, I'm sorry, your kids urged you to go. Yes. And did you go? Yes, I did go. And what happened? Well, I told them when we get there, I want everybody to keep the miles closed. Don't say anything. because we're going to go there, we're going to sit down for a few minutes, we're going to get up, we're going to leave. So my intention is we're to go to the bond hearing, hear maybe one family member speak, get up and go back home.

And Nadine was the first one to tell Dylan Roof that she forgave him. Who's that? Nadine, she's a family member of one of the person who killed. Her mother was Lance. Ms. Lance. So she stood up at this bond hearing and looked at Dylan Roof. the murderer and told him in that room that she forgave him. She did.

She said, we're going to go to a break here. This is, it's very hard for people to process, but I think it's very important to hear about this. And you have the credentials, unfortunately, to tell us about this. We're going to be right back, folks. The book is called to forgive. Called to Forgive. I'm sitting here with Pastor Anthony Thompson.

It's the Eric Mattaxas Show. Hey there, folks. It's the Eric Mattaxas Show. So having an amazing conversation already with Pastor Anthony Thompson, whose wife Myra was killed in the Charleston, South Carolina church shooting just about four years ago. He has a book on it called The title of it is Called to Forgive. And Pastor Thompson, you were just telling us that you go to this bond hearing, you expect to be there for a little bit and then leave. and you said while you're sitting there, one of the relatives

of the people killed goes to the microphone and publicly and directly forgives this young murderer. What happened to you that moment? What are you thinking? Well, at that moment, I really was just thinking about my wife, still had her on my mind.

And I was looking at my watch, looking at my kids, shaking my head, letting him know it's time to go. I said, as soon as Nadine gets through, we're getting up and we're leaving. However, God had other plans. God had other plans. God had other plans.

No sooner than I said that, he just intervened. And I know that voice. I've heard that voice so many times in my life. He heard it when I was seven years old. He told him I was going to be a preacher. And I told him, no. I heard it when, and then I had the tragedy when I was on the ground just in misery, and he told me to get up.

So when I heard it, I knew it was him, and that's exactly what he said. He said, get up. He said, I have something that. say. Wait a minute. This is, you know, this is a big deal here. You're talking about hearing the voice of God. I'm sure there are many people listening thinking, what? What are you talking about? But you're saying that you heard it when you were seven years old? Yes, when I was seven. I was in Charleston, South Carolina, just playing like a normal kid, kicking up bags, looking for money at the grocery store. And he called me three times. The third time, he let me know it was him, and that I was going

to be a preacher. And immediately I said, no, I'm not. How did you, when you say, whenever people say they hear a voice of God, I always want the details. Was it an audible voice or a voice inside your head that's nonetheless a voice? It was audible. It was audible. Yeah, I call it whispering my ear. I wrote a poem about it years after that because it stayed in my ear until I went to the seminary.

I was 35 years old when I went to the seminary to become a pastor. So you said no, and that no lasted for how many years, 28 years? Yes, for 28 years. So finally at 35 you decide to obey. That's very interesting because when God speaks, you know, usually people realize I really have no choice if God said it. I don't know, but I was seven years old. You were fighting against it. Yeah.

I fought it for a long time. And like I said, when I went to a seminary and stopped, you never heard the voice again? Oh, you mean you heard it multiple times over the years? Oh, every day. Oh, come on. Every day. You're kidding. No, I'm not kidding.

You could resist that all those years? That's pretty good. He was like a nuisance. I'm seriously. I mean, that's what I felt about it, you know, and it's funny, but that's the way he does to me. That's the kind of relationship he and I have. It's a very funny relationship, and he knows me like anybody else, and he knows what he needs to do to make me move. Well, all right, so you're telling me that the day of the shooting, you're lying on the ground, you're crying, you're out of your mind because of what just happened.

Yes. And you said you heard the voice of God, get up. Yeah, he said, get up. He said it three times. and two times I thought maybe some of the people around me were telling me to get up because it was very harsh. It wasn't like, you know, it was me, the Lord, you know, fair not, this kind of thing. It was like, get up.

And the third time I knew was him and I got up. And he reminded me of what I told my congregation when things like this happened. You know, if you love the Lord, more than you love your own child, more than you love your own wife or husband, then when they're gone, what you're going to do? And I recall that. And I remember preaching that so many times in my congregation. Wait, now you're talking about the second get up. Now you're talking about when you're in the bond hearing.

No, this is when the night of the tragedy. Okay, this is the night of the tragedy. Okay, okay. And so I got up, you know, and he gave me scripture and everything for that Sunday to preach, which I didn't. God gave you scripture. Yeah, St. Luke, 17th chapter. What's that saying? And it was about telling people that, you know, things in life, people are going to do things in your life that's going to cause you to stumble.

But he says, wait on him because revenge is his, and he'll take care of that. But in the meantime, what we have to do is we have to forgive. That's the – now, I just – there's so much here. You know, I want to say that. First of all, before we get back to this – this young murderer, when he came to this Bible study, was everyone at the Bible study black? except for him. He was the only one.

So he's the only white person to come in. And he's received lovingly and graciously because it's a Bible study. Any of us who loves God, that's what you would do, even when somebody looks a little weird or something. Yes. And he came there with the intent to murder. That's the intent. And what, because I don't recall the details, what did he say that he wanted to kill these. these people because they are black, because they are Christians.

What did he say? Well, his intentions really initially was to kill all black men who had the Bible study because he said the black men were taking all the jobs. The black people were overpopulated in the city. They were raping their white women. Do you ever wonder where somebody like this hears this stuff? Can you even, well, we don't need to get into it, but it's just so sick. So, okay, so now you are, what day did the shooting occur?

Shooting occurred on a Wednesday. On a Wednesday. As in Charleston, South Carolina, Wednesday is Bible study night. Okay, and so that's the night that the Lord spoke to you get up and he gave you verses to preach that following Sunday. But on Friday, you're in the bond hearing. Yes. And you're sitting there, your intention is to leave. Mm-hmm.

And what happens? Does God speak to you at that time? At that time, seeing the very same. same thing. What does he say? He said, get up. But not to leave. No. He said, I have something to say. And so I got up and I walked to the podium and my kids are watching me like, where are you going? You told us not to say anything. And I figured they would understand. So I'm on my way to the podium. I'm asking them, well, what do you have to say? Because I don't have anything to say. And it just came out. I forgive you. My family forgives you. But you need to repent. Confess and repent. Give your life to the one that means.

he's the most to Christ. And no matter what you do, you know, no matter what happens to your life, it would change your ways, it will change your attitudes. And no matter how much trouble you're in right now, if you do that, everything else will be okay. Okay. Now, when you say this, I know that somebody like Spike Lee, who you look a little bit like with those glasses your daughter got you before. But somebody like that, I think, would say you're an Uncle Tom.

Here you are in a situation where this white kid murdered your wife because she is black, and then you get up like a fool and you publicly forgive him. And I know that there are a lot of blacks who would sharply disagree with you and be very angry because they feel you're saying exactly the wrong thing. what do you say to those people? Well, I had that to happen, you know, by my own kind. You know, they told me it was ridiculous. You know, they put it like it was a slave mentality, you know,

going back in the days when you would say, okay, you know, I'm sorry you did this to me, kind of pass it off so you won't get hurt anymore. Yeah. You know, but those days are over. You know, that's what I say to people now. Those days are over, you know. I didn't say it because. I was afraid of what a white man may say or what a white man may tell me.

I mean, I'm not a slave. You know, we don't have that slave mentality anymore. You know, it was all because of the divine intervention of God himself. I simply said and did what God expected me to do, commanded me to do, had nothing to do with anything else. Well, you know, what's interesting is that a lot of people grow up and they would say, I grew up in the church or whatever. But what you're talking about, when I read about this or heard about this that you and others had done this, I suddenly understood in that moment, okay, I get it. Those people are real Christians. Because there's a lot of people going to churches or Bible studies, but they would not dream of doing what you did. In order to do what you did, you must know Jesus is real, the Bible is real, the God of the scripture is real. It's a completely different Christianity. It's actual real Christianity. Otherwise, it is lunacy.

Nobody can comprehend how you could do that. I mean, that takes a kind of a faith that, I would say, you know, a lot of so-called Christians, they do not walk in that kind of faith. No, there may be some Christians who do not walk in that kind of faith. But if you are Christian, you have a relationship with the Lord, then I'm sure you experience something like that in your relationship with them because it wasn't something that I hadn't experienced before. You know, I experienced this before, you know, on my job in South Carolina,

in Charleston, South Carolina, you know. Racism, I mean, we're a very hospitable city, but racism, we had this undertone of racism on the jobs, in the schools, and I face it on the job every day as an agent. And that same God who spoke to me that night, the same God who spoke to me in the barnhand. It was the same God who told me to stop being a rebel when I was working the South Carolina Department of a probation parole and experiencing racial discrimination, you know. It was, yeah. All right, we're going to go to another break. It's such a privilege to get to sit here with you, Pastor Anthony B. Thompson. The book is called to forgive the Charleston Church shooting of victim's husband and the path to healing and peace. This is the Ericman Taxes Show. Stick around. Christian bestselling author and speaker Richard E. Simmons does not shy away from the big questions of life. His latest book is called reflections on the existence of God, and it tackles the biggest question of all.

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This is Pastor Anthony Thompson, whose wife Myra was murdered. in the Charleston Church shooting four years ago. Now, Pastor Thompson, again, I just, I have to marvel because it's very rare in American culture and public life. We get something as stark as what you and the others did in forgiving. In other words, it's rare that we see this kind of evil. And it's that much rarer, much rarer even than the evil to see the forgiveness. of the evil. And I was just talking with you about how some people get angry, how can you do that?

You're giving a pass to these racists and stuff. And I know you don't see it that way. How do you see it? Because you and I as Christians understand we're talking about evil, satanic demonic evil, this kind of murder, there's no doubt in my mind that there's a, there's true evil we're talking about. Oh yeah, definitely is. However, you know, the Bible says don't overcome evil with evil. And there's a reason behind it. And that's because, you know, you read with your soul. You know, if you're so evil, you're going to get evil back. So that means if I can't forgive him, you know, then what's going to happen with me? God says, you know, if I can't forgive those who trespass against me, then he can't forgive me. So then that means Dylan and I in the same boat, you know.

Now you have met this young man? Well, only at the bond hearing is the only time I saw him. That's what you saw him. You know, and to continue to hold on to it, to have a grudge or to take revenge, it's going to make, it would make my life just miserable. It would be like saying, Dylan, just come on and take control of my life. You know, I want this evil to spread all over the world. Well, it's giving in to evil. In other words, you're allowing the evil to spread to you.

Yes, yes. And a lot of people wouldn't see it that way. A lot of people, they love the idea of revenge. It sounds like justice. So when you forgive, I just want to make this theological point because you're a pastor, right? You're not saying, oh, we're going to forget about it. You don't mean that. It's like Jesus on the cross to forgive is a tremendously heroic, brave thing because the easy thing would be to hate.

I mean, the most natural thing I could even imagine would be in your position to hate. Yeah. That is the easiest thing to do to hate. However, hating him would only make my life miserable, my family life miserable, and it just trickles downhill. You know, your church, your community, you know, because you take all this everywhere you go. Let me tell you exactly what happened when I did forgive him. And I forgive him immediately, immediately my body began to tremble.

In the bond hearing. In the bond hearing. And I felt everything leaving my body. I mean, it was like something was in me just leaving me. and it was all the anger, the rage, the hate, the malice, it was everything, the sadness I felt about my wife, he just took it away. I mean, he took it away. And when he was through with me, I was light as a feather, and I experienced real peace. Real peace.

I mean, I preached about that peace that passes all understanding. I preached about it so many times. I thought I had it. I thought my congregation had it, but no, we didn't have it. But I felt it that day. I know what peace feels like. it is real. I want people to know that God's peace is real. I felt it. It's still with me today. It's the thing that helps me to move forward in my life, and I'll never give it back.

What do your children have to say about this? They have peace as well. That day at the barn hearing, they understood very well what was happening when they hurt me, because they know how I am. They know the kind of relationship behalf of the Lord, and they have the same. And they saw the peace of me. So automatically they felt that same peace. And that's what I say about hate. If you feel hate for what somebody did to you, then it's going to impart to someone else. Just like the peace and impart it from my kids, Hake and impart to them if I hated this guy.

But we're all at peace. Even my grandkids, we're at peace. You know, we're able to move forward. Wow. I just. And now there were others also that forgave this man. I mean, the level of public witness of the Christian faith when you see is one thing to forgive a murderer. But to forgive a murderer who murdered specifically because he hates black people, to do that in this culture is just the loudest statement you could ever make.

Yes, it is. You know, I mean, I really don't get it, you know, especially what he said about black male raping a woman. And we have all these opportunities. Well, I bid to say that that's quite the opposite. Well, listen, I think we know that this guy is not playing with a full deck. To put it really generously, that's pretty clear. Yeah. I mean, if anybody should be hating anybody should be us, you know,

and for him to want to hate us because of our skin is just, well, it's almost insane. It's almost not. And this young man will spend the rest of his life in jail. Yes, he will. And I think at some point, again, the difficult thing is that God commands us to pray for our enemies. Yes. And to think that, you know, if you know you're a sinner saved by grace, you're stuck. Because then you know that apart from the grace of God, you know, and so I have to pray for these people.

And I know there are many people that call themselves Christians. They're in love with the idea of somebody going to hell who deserves. They think in their mind deserves to go to hell. And I think if you think that, you're really missing it. Yes, you are. I know you've preached on this. Yeah. And Dylan, I pray for Dylan two times a day, you know, because I really want him, if he hadn't given his life to Christ, I want him to do it.

If he has, we're going to, since you're coughing, we're going to go to a break, folks. We'll be right back. Folks, it's the Eric Metaxis show. I'm talking to Pastor Anthony Thompson, who has written a book. in collaboration with my friend Denise George, title Called to Forgive, the Charleston church shooting, a victim's husband, and the path to healing and peace. And Pastor Thompson, again, your wife, Myra, was murdered. When you say that you pray twice a day for her murderer,

a lot of people think, that man must be crazy. What could make him do that? I don't get it. Well, when I look at Dylan, especially when I was in the bond hearing, I see him the same way I see myself. He may be a murderer, but he's a sinner and I'm a sinner. God forgave me. Why can I forgive him?

Nobody experienced no much greater pain or suffering than Jesus Christ himself. The suffering that I'm experienced is nothing compared to what he did. And so my choice is to see him, to see Dylan one day for him and my wife, because this is what Meyer would want. She would want one day to be able to say to him, I'm glad you made it. I'm glad you made it here. You know, now let me introduce you to the Lord. That's my wife.

That's just the way she was. You know, so I can't see myself not praying for him. Well, you understand. There are people that, this is what's interesting because when you think about the story of the, I always say prodigal son, that's not the story I mean. No, I'm sorry, it is the story. I mean, I always say Good Samaritan, by mistake, I got it right. The story of prodigal son, the elder brother reminds me of those people that when they say want justice, they're hoping that he will go to hell because they say he deserves it.

And you're saying, no, you and your wife would pray that someone like this would escape hell somehow. And you know the story of the son of Sam 40 years ago murdered these people. he came to faith in prison. And a lot of people were angry when they heard that. How dare what a hypocrite. You know, whatever. But the woman who was the most bitter, her daughter, Stacey Moskowitz, was killed. That woman was the most bitter.

And eventually she found reconciliation with the murderer of her daughter. I mean, this is unbelievable stuff. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it doesn't have to be reconciliation, you know, to say, to forgive someone, reconciliation is not necessary, you know, not let you and the person you're forgiven want to reconcile for whatever purposes. Right. But in my case, you know, I didn't know Dylan. Don't really want to know him.

We'll love to help him out. I wrote him a letter, you know, to prison, letting him know who my wife was, the kind of person she was, and letting him know he was responsible. And he is the blame for what happened to those people. And he needed to take responsibility. At the same time, I reminded him that I still forgive him. and that if he needed me to come into jail to help him, turn his life to Lord, I would do that.

And so it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, as a child of God because I am too, but as children of God, we still are sinners, we all are. Okay, because you're a pastor, I want to push you to explain that. I know there are people listening and saying, what are you talking about? Okay. You're comparing yourself, uh, you're a sinner and this, uh, uh, uh, you're a, uh, this young man who murdered nine people, he's a sinner, and somehow you're equal. I don't get it.

Yeah. Well, we're equal in the eyes of God because we think about Jesus down on the cross. As a matter of fact, 500 years before he actually did it, Isaiah said, by his strikes, we'd be healed, meaning that we all need healing, healing from our sins, from our burdens. And so 500 years later, he did that act of forgiveness on the cross. And he said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. But what you're saying, though, is that this is to me the key, is that you are saying that the Bible says, which I believe, that we all need God's forgiveness. And I guess the point is, I think that a lot of people say, well, I don't really need it.

I'm a good person. Yeah. It's okay to be a good person, you know, nothing fine. I mean, nothing wrong with that. But in actuality, when you think about yourself, you know, what you do on a daily basis, some of the things you're, you're doing. you say, you know, you don't do everything right. You don't do everything wrong. And the things you do wrong makes you a sinner. You know, just like Dylan, just like me, Dylan was a sinner in a sense that he was a murderer, which made him a sinner. You may be a sinner because you're a thief, but no sin is greater.

You know, all sins are the same. No sin is greater than the other sin. Well, in the sense that they will all drag us to hell. Yeah. In other words, it doesn't matter if it's a big sinner, a small sin. And they will all drag us to hell. So at the end of the day, what does it matter? At the end of the day, we all need to ask God's forgiveness. You know, we all need to forgive those who've done us wrong because God forgave us. Even Paul, Paul, who was a murderer.

Okay, one day, God threw him off his horse, you know, made him blind, converted him on the spot. A murder, a murder of Christians, a murder of people just like you and I. He was a terrorist. It's like the terrorists we have today. And look what God did to him. everybody's irredeemable, everybody's redeemable in God's eyes. We need to hear that more and more.

I am so grateful for you, Pastor Thompson, I can't even tell you. Now, it's been four years since this happened. What have you been doing since then? The book just came out. What have you been doing? Well, I've been doing a lot of speaking on forgiveness. I go around the United States to different churches, to different organizations, and let people know that forgiveness heals.

You know, let them know that, you know, hold it, you know, they've been, we're all burdened. We're all burdened down by something somebody or some people did to us that was wrong. You know, it could be from physical abuse to sexual abuse. It can be from somebody just slandering your name. And we get mad. I mean, it's a natural inclination for us to get mad and angry. But, and we try to find that peace by taking revenge, by staying angry. But the person who would take an anger out on going about their dead of lives.

not even knowing we're angry at them. You know, so that anger is really eating your life up. It's eating their life. You know, what's interesting too is that a lot of times we think about a murder or some horrible thing, but I think that most of us are walking around with much smaller

things, right? And let's say you're in a relationship, marriages, you marry 50 years or whatever, and that bitterness creeps in and you don't forgive it and you begin to fall in love with it because it gives you a sense of justification toward the other person. And it does creep into you and you need to forgive. And I think

anybody listening has stuff like that in their life. Maybe it's not some big thing. Maybe you weren't raped or somebody wasn't killed. But nonetheless, you have something against someone and you're walking with it day after day after day. And you're saying you need to be healed. You need to forgive. When we come back, I want to touch on that because there's so many people listening. Okay. Pastor Thompson, just a joy to have you. We'll be right back, folks. It's the Erkmataxis show. Hey, folks, this is the Erkmatakis show. We have a final segment with Pastor Anthony Thompson. The book is called to forgive. Now, Pastor Thompson, again, I can't think of anything more countercultural than when you hear somebody say, as the response to a deep, sick evil, I forgive. And I know there are many people listening.

They just, they cannot comprehend it. What do you say to somebody who, they say, look, I'm about justice. I just want what's right. Well, I'm sure that even in a marriage, you know, maybe your husband did you wrong. Maybe you did your husband wrong. But even in a marriage, you can reconcile through forgiveness. Because if you don't, you're going to be harboring, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. and what's going to happen is that

it's going to affect your life greatly to the point where that's all you're doing. Nothing's anger and hate. It's not going to do anything to the person who did anything wrong to you. Like in Charleston, after this forgiveness, our community came together. You're talking about a place where

black and white people were divided or separated through racial discrimination and cultures and denominations. We came together as a people. Not only to we come together as a people, we started reaching over different cultures and different denominations. It started to reaching over different races.

You know, the churches now are coming together. We're exchanging pulpits, you know, different denominations, different races. I spoke to a crowd of a church, a predominant white church where a lady talked about racism and how I was taught to her and how she repentant of racism and now how her life is so much better. You know, forgiveness is about bringing you together, about you healing. It's for you. When I forgave Dylan, it wasn't for Dylan. It was for me.

It was for me to receive the peace I needed. If I had tried to get that peace through taking revenge on him or hating him, I would have never received that peace. He would have had control of my life. So I'm telling you that whoever it is that you're hating right now, for whatever they've done to you, forgive them. Because if you don't, then they have control of your life. They have full control of your life.

You're giving in to them every step of them. the way, but when you forgive them is when you're going to receive the peace that you're trying to receive by taking revenge and taking matters to your hands. You know, when you just said that, I'm thinking there's some people say, I can't, I can't. And what I would say to them is ask God to give you the strength because he will. He will. Because he will. He will not ask you to do something that he will not give you the strength to do.

And also, you know, as our loving father, he commands us to forgive. He doesn't suggest it. He commands it because he says, if you don't, do you want to go to hell? Right. Do you want to go to hell? Right. I know you know that's real. That's not a metaphor.

No, it's not a metaphor. You know, because he says you need to forgive those who trespass against you in order for him to forgive you. In other words, if you don't, then you'll never be forgiven. You'll never have that peace with God. And the person who you want to sit in the hell may be your very own life, going to hell itself of what you don't want to do. When he talks about a parable

of forgiveness about a servant who owed his master a lot of money and his master, he begged his master to give him the opportunity to pay him back and his master said, okay, that's fine, you know, you can pay me back. As a matter of fact, I'll relinquish your debt. You know, you pay it in full.

And that same servant had a servant who owed him just a little bit of money. And He put this guy in jail. He sold his family as slaves. And then when the servant who forgave him found out what he had done to his servant, he put him in jail. And he said, this is where you're going to be. And I'm going to make it almost impossible for you to pay me back.

So God is saying the same thing to us in terms of not being able to forgive. We have to leave it there. You should become a pastor. Have you thought about that? Yeah. God bless you, Pastor Thompson. What a privilege. Thank you so much.

You're welcome. Thank you so very much. Okay.