The Eric Metaxas Show - Pastor John MacArthur

Episode Date: September 16, 2020

Pastor John MacArthur returns to the show with an update on the services being held at Grace Community Church despite the fact that Governor Gavin Newsom has imposed harsh restrictions.

Mataxis show. But first, two very important questions. Have you ever tried to stack marbles while wearing boxing gloves? Also, did you know that marigolds and geraniums hate each other? Absolutely. And now your host, Eric Mataxis. Hey there, folks. Welcome to Hour 1 of the Eric Mataxis show. Chris and Albin. Are you as excited as I am about talking to John MacArthur? Or are you just frightened as I am about talking to John MacArthur? I don't know. I heard he had like 7,000 people jammed, jammed into his church this past Sunday. So this is It's going to be great. And 8,000 of them had active COVID. That's courage.

Let me tell you something. The fact, he's willing to do that. And there's some snake handlers and stuff. It's awesome. Yeah, he's known online as the COVID whisperer. That's his... I should clarify, because I was saying this to Suzanne last night, you know, there are so many different worlds out there, right?

Like, there are worlds of people who so revere John MacArthur. It's like I'm having, you know, Bob Hope on the program. but most people listening to this program don't know who John McArthur is and so I want to say to those folks shame on you no I want to say to those folks he is a hugely well-known Bible teacher slash pastor and people swear by him they say this guy there is no one can you still hear me I have a new mic oh yeah no we hear you great there's nobody on his level in terms of expositional preaching you know teacher from the text of the Bible. And every time I think about this, I get like a little jealous because as good as your pastor is, there's only one John MacArthur. And he does this every week. He's been doing it for 50-something years. It's stunning. So he's going to be my guest in a couple of minutes because he and his church openly defied Governor Newsom and met this past Sunday. So we want to get an update on that. We try to get Jenna Ellis of the Falkirk Center at Liberty. She's really busy.

busy. But Jenna Ellis is the lawyer for John McArthur. So we'll get her on the program eventually to get an update on that. In hour two, we're going to get real crazy. We have John Zmirak. Hold your applause. John Zmirak is going to be on the program. And I can't tell you, we always know we love talking to John Zmirak. But Chris and Albin yesterday was even more crazy. crazy than today. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, with Jim Caviesel and Bill O'Reilly. I mean, the idea of the two of them wrestling, well, actually, they weren't together, but the idea of having Jim Caviesel, aka Jesus of Nazareth, aka the Christ, the Messiah, the United One, to have Jim Caviesel on the program was a big deal. But the biggest deal in my myopic mind,

was getting him to laugh a few times because he's famously stony. He believes laughing is of the devil. And I got him to crack up a couple of times. Well, everything he does is with passion. Correct. Correct. Well said, my friend. So, uh, Kivisel kind of has an online following where, you know, he's almost like approaching the aura of a Chuck Norse or Clint Eastwood,

kind of like, you know, a drop of Jim Kavisel's sweat, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. I read the comments. They're out there. People think of a bad dude. You mean on the YouTube, on our YouTube channel? That's right. That's right. All right. Well, I just want to say, folks, if you didn't see my interview with Kavisel yesterday, you've got to watch it. It's up on YouTube. It already has, I mean, I checked a little while ago. It has over 7,000 views, and we just put it up yesterday. So he has some kind of cultic following, which is pretty crazy. But his friends know him as the V's, you know, like the Fonz. He's the V's.

That's right. So we talked to Jim Caviesel and also the V's. We talked to him about the sequel to the Passion. Think about this. Now, the Passion seems like, oh, it was a few years ago. It came out in 2004. I was still a zygote technically. That's a medical term.

And when you think about that, it's been 16 years, and they're not done with the script yet, but they're going to come out with, you know, the sequel to the passion. And I suggested they should just think about it because you don't know you've got to focus group this stuff. But I suggested as a sequel, how about if you call it the Passion 2 electric boogaloo,

you know, to kind of get the young crowd and maybe just to really be on the edge. It's using all black cast, including Jim Caviesel, Mel Gibson, and, you know, all of them. And I don't know if that resonated with him, but, you know, I throw these ideas out, and I don't care if I get credit. I just, I just care that, that I eventually get credit. So it's very exciting to think that they're talking about that. So we talk to him about that. If you miss that again, it's on our YouTube channel.

We want to exhort you to go to YouTube to the channel. It's the Eric Metaxus show channel. have my own channel. It's the Eric Mattaxas channel. It's got other stuff, but the Eric Matttaxas show channel is the one with all of this great stuff. And if it weren't enough that we had Jim Cavizlios today, we decided to kick it up a notch and get Bill O'Reilly. Bill O'Reilly frightens me. He's a big, tall Irishman. And if he hits you, you're going down. People know he's got that Irish temper. And I don't mean to be to stereotype the Irish as drunkards. But the fact to the matter is, you don't want to get crossways of a drunk Bill O'Reilly. He will knock you out.

And so, but it went very well. I mean, would you guys, would you admit that it went well? Amazing. It was really wonderful. YouTube channel, subscribe, go there, watch it. Yeah. And his book seems really interesting, too. Although just getting back to his temper, I was surprised when he was physically able to reach through your laptop screen and throttle you. another thing is, but that was a love throttle. I mean, it's the kind of thing where he does that just to let you know, like, hey, we're like lion cubs. We're playing.

You know what I'm saying? It's kind of, it's a guy thing. Isn't that an OJ song, the love throttle, get on board? The OJs? No, I don't know. Anyway, we've lost our whole audience now. So we're going to have to go to an important guest named John MacArthur. In all seriousness, what John McArthur did, I write about this kind of thing in my

Bonhofer book, what does it mean to defy the state? And I think that unfortunately, we're approaching some of the things that Germany was dealing with in the early 30s. You know, before the Nazis got real control, there was social intimidation, there was government intimidation. There were all kinds of things. And here in America, we have no excuse because we have a tradition of liberty. We're supposed to understand it. But what I've argued a lot, particularly when I talk about my book, if you can keep it, is that we have allowed

our muscles of self-government to atrophy. We, for about 50 years, kind of given it a slide, we're going on fume. So it's really, really important. And when somebody like a MacArthur stands up and does this,

is important for us to ask ourselves and to ask him, as I do in the interview, was this right? Did you need to do this? Was there another way around it? Other pastors like my friend Greg Lorry somehow was able to work with the authorities. How do you figure that out? What is right?

What is wrong? Is there some middle ground? So John MacArthur, he's kind of famously combative in a good way, I would say, mostly. And it's going to be interesting to talk to him today. Tomorrow we have an encore with Lou Dobbs. He has a new book out. If you missed it the first time, don't miss it. He's, I love that guy.

And then we have a new guest, Byron York. Many of you already know him. He's pretty legendary, but he has written a book with some really original, shockingly original, frankly, reporting on the attempt to take down Trump. I didn't think that I could hear anything new about this. Later in the week, we have Roger Stone coming back on the program. and Victoria Jackson, either Friday or Monday, we're going to have our friend Victoria Jackson.

How much do we love Victoria Jackson? Oh, my goodness. Are we forgetting anything? I probably ought to mention that if you don't order from my pillow today and use the code, Eric, the feds are going to break down your door. I'm just saying, you know, now you know. Yeah, yeah. They broke down my door last night because I didn't use it.

Eric, they said Eric. They just broke it down and said Eric. The code is Eric. Even my family, like if you were, went to my whole family and said, you know, my pillow, whatever, they'd be like, oh, really? You know, because they don't, they're just checked out. And it hurts me. It really hurts me. I wanted to end on a bitter, a bitter note of self-pity. And I have succeeded. We're going to be coming back. Seriously, John MacArthur, big one. We'll be right back.

Hey there, folks. This is the Eric Metaxis show. As promised, I am speaking in this first hour to Pastor John MacArthur with Grace Community Church. Is that the name of the church? Pastor MacArthur, I always want to get that right at least. That is the name, Grace Community Church. That is the name. You've been pastoring for 51 years. Right.

In this church. I came in my 20s and they haven't been able to get rid of me. Yeah, even now they can't get rid of you with this Spanish court order situation. Let me ask you, We spoke to you some weeks ago. Things have changed since we last spoke with you. You're a very public figure and you're a public face for those Christians who are displeased with government overreach.

I know that California seems to be about the worst. For folks who are not following this story, if you don't mind, just break it down briefly for us. What is it that the government has said that's unacceptable to you? And that's, in your view, forcing you to defy Gavin Newsom's orders. Well, basically, he said no church can meet indoors, period. We have a church of about 7,000 people. We can't put those people in the parking lot because even in the parking lot, we have to keep six foot perimeters around every single person.

So the maximum number of people we could have if we followed his orders would be about 350 to 400, which would eliminate most of our congregation. They would have to stay six feet apart, wear masks, can't sing, can't hug, can't shake hands. And if they get inside the six feet with anyone that is not in their family for more than 15 minutes, they have to self-quarantine for two weeks. No Bibles, no hymn books. The parking spaces have to be alternated. We have to have monitors to make sure everybody stays six feet apart, keeps their mask on, only one person in a restroom at a time, just goes on and on and on, which essentially means shut the church down.

And that not only is beyond what the state would allow, the Constitution of California, or at least the law, says that the governor can exercise executive privilege for a period of 60 days. where we're way past that. This has become law with no end. And of course, beyond that, it is a violation of the Constitution. California has the lowest death rate of all the continental United States from COVID. So there's really no reason for this. But beyond that, we meet because the Lord's commanded us to meet. Well, even in ancient Rome, the dictator only got six months, right?

So this is a bizarre situation. And, you know, for historical precedent, you know, I always, most people think of the Reichstag fire, where Hitler finds an excuse. Sometimes it's a real excuse. This has been very real. I know some people that have died. But the idea is that the government does not like to relinquish power. And once they can grab it, they can use it capriciously, which seems to be happening.

Well, you would know better than anyone, Eric, that Hitler used false science. Hitler used false science about races of people, about black people, and about Jewish people. He tried to basically use that false science to lock down the Reichstag in Nazi power. That is essentially what's happening in California and even across the country. The false science of this virus is being used again as a club by a, by the governor of California and others across the country to affect the political change that they want to see. Now, just to be fair, to play devil's advocate, neither of us is a medical doctor. So when you say that, I want you to, if you don't mind, clarify what you mean because, you know,

I don't think we want to dispute that there has been a pandemic that people have died, but it seems to me to have given people in power, as we've just said, the ability to act capriciously to sort of grab the set of facts that suits them and to, in a sense, underscore certain things so much that it twists everything. I mean, the idea that masks or some kind of panacea seems absurd. There's a lot on the face of it that seems absurd. So when you talk about this, in other words, do you not have any concern, for example, that folks in your church standing next to each other could catch the virus from somebody else. There has to be some reality to it. The question is, in a sense, at what point do we say we're a free people and we can do what we like?

Well, let's start with the anecdotal answer to that question. We've met for nine weeks. We don't know anyone in our congregation of 7,000 people who has COVID and any symptoms. We have had no one in the hospital. And we've had thousands of people crushed together doing everything they would normally do in terms of social interaction. That's our experience. Statistically, there is one in one hundredth of one percent of the population of California 40 million people who have COVID. One in one hundredth of one percent. That does not qualify as a pandemic.

By pandemic definition, you have to have one to three percent of the population dying. We have one hundredth of one percent, one hundredth of the people who have this. So there is no scientific way that we can call this a pandemic. Well, I mean, but this is the first I have heard that. That's a dramatic statement. You're saying that by definition of the word pandemic, this is not a pandemic. That's rather a dramatic. thing to say when for all these months, everyone, including I have been calling it a pandemic.

Well, that's part of the deal. Put your mask on and call it a pandemic. Keeps the fear alive. It does seem to me, unfortunately, that this, the way we have dealt with this has fallen along party lines and that even if it wasn't political, it has become political and that those on the left who are typically more secularist or often out and out anti-Christian have used this as a bludgeon against the churches. Do you feel that that is at issue here with this governor? Yeah, I do. I have to feel that way. The judge that finally after five times in court ruled against us and put a court order against us meeting said that the issues of the health department outweigh the constitutional right for the church to meet.

So bottom line, 100th of 1% of the people in California having a virus trumps religious freedom for everyone. So no one in the state of California can go inside a church because 1,100th of 1% of the population have a virus. I'm not arguing the virus exists. what I am arguing is that just as you said, those people who have political motivations have taken this and exploited it for their own benefits. The Health Department Director in California, Barbara Farrar, said the other day, schools will not open. This is a phone conversation that was recorded.

Schools will not open until after the election. She said that twice. Yeah. Well, what does that have to do with the virus? I mean, it's extraordinary when people are caught saying what we fear they're thinking, right? And this is a classic case of that. I know that in California it is complicated. I know people, I think I mentioned to you, my friend, Pastor Greg Lorry, that they have

been able to open outside with huge tents. And I preach, and there were tons of people there. But not every church can do that. I recently spoke with our friend Rob McCoy and with David Lane and others. And they said that every church finds itself in a different situation. And your church being so large, you're saying you simply could not comply, even if you wanted to comply. Well, look, I would understand that Greg and his church could meet outside.

I would understand that. But did everyone keep six feet of social distancing the whole time? I did not. I promise you I did not. And I sang loudly. So it's a selective violation. You could say, okay, we'll do the outside thing. But did anybody shake hands?

Did anybody give a hug to somebody? Did anybody take a mask off? Was there only one person in a bathroom at a time? Did they park in every other parking space where they're monitors to make sure that everybody's temperature was taken when they walked on to the kids? campus and did everybody pre-register with name and address before they showed up? And immediately when it was over, did they all leave? Did they shorten the service? Those were all the edicts that came down against the church. So there are ways that you can comply with some things. And

meeting outdoors would be one, but the list, I gave the list Sunday morning, goes on and on, and I only gave half the list. I listened to some parts of your sermon, and I caught that part. And I was just laughing. I thought this this sounds just it sounds like the government is looking for trouble. We're going to be right back, folks. I'm talking to Pastor John MacArthur. Don't go away. Folks, I'm talking to Pastor John MacArthur with Grace Community Church in Southern California. And I have to ask you, Pastor McArthur, a couple of things come up when we're talking about

this. In your sermon on Sunday, you were talking about the law and the legitimate role of government as laid out in the scripture. To somebody who doesn't understand, or I can imagine somebody would say, well, wait a minute, that sounds like theocracy or it sounds like you're conflating biblical law with government law. Help us navigate that. How do we see that? In other words, the legitimate role of the government and how that meshes with what we call the law of the scriptures? Yeah, I think you have to see it in the full spread of reality. So there's a fallen human race. We're all a bunch of colliding sinners who would have a hard time surviving if there wasn't restraint.

So God builds into the fallen world restraint at all kinds of levels. The first restraint is the law of God written in the heart. Romans 1 and 2, so that man is without excuse. The conscience is the weapon. The law of God indicts the sinner when he sins. It gives the sinner a sense of well-being when he does what is good. That's a built-in restraint. In this culture, that has basically been attacked so that people don't know what the true law is.

They've been flipped. They've substituted bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter and good for bad and bad for good, as Isaiah says. and the conscience is now an enemy. You're told not to feel shame no matter what you do. So society struggles with people who have no conscience and don't understand the law of God of the heart because it's been overturned. The next restraint is the family. So God designs that parents, loving parents, discipline their children,

and the rod, according to scripture, discipline. There has to be some sense of pain in doing things that are wrong. You train a child that there are going to be consequences that are negative. So when the family is disintegrated, when disciplining children has been disintegrated, then you have people running in the streets and doing what they want. And at that point, God set up another restraint, and that's government. And that's Romans 13, 1 Peter 2. The government is designed there to do two things, protect the people who do good and punish the people who do evil, and the weapon is the sword. So you could say the conscience is the weapon of the individual law of

God. The rod applied to the child is the weapon of the family to discipline the child. And then it gets really serious. If conscience is not functioning and the family is not functioning, the police step in, and they use the weapon of the sword. And that would include even capital punishment, the threat of the sword. So we're at a point now where the society is saying defund the police, get the police out, burn the police, shoot the police, burn down the police station. Because when they have been liberated from the first restraint and the second restraint, they see this as the enemy of their freedom. They want to overthrow that. So in the effort to do that, there's only one left, one restraining force left in the world. And that's the church. But let's back up to that government. It's not

politicians that are the restraint. It's police by definition. It's those who can protect, those who do good, and punish those who do evil. We give honor to the police. We do the police training in our church virtually every month. This is interesting, Eric, you'll find this very interesting internal memo in the police department, LAPD. Should the county take any action against Grace Community Church, the LAPD in uppercase letters shall not be involved. That's an internal police memo. That's how they feel about us. And I asked the chief, what is the deal there? and they said, we enforce the law, not arbitrary mandates from health department or governor. We enforce the law.

Don't call us to enact these kinds of things. So we have a phenomenal relationship with the police. We have law enforcement Sunday here. We have policemen families in our church. We have leaders in the police department in our church. We have always been the partners to the police. when they had the riots in L.A. a few weeks ago, they processed the prisoners in our parking lot. That's the relationship we have with them. That's the biblical thing. Those are the people who

protect and bring honor to those who do good. So we are their partners in everything we do. When I listened to, as I said, parts of your sermon which your friend sent to me, And I guess part of what seems very interesting to me right now is that some of what you're doing is you're, you're underscoring the idea of the natural law, the Noah Hyde covenant. In other words, you don't need to be a Christian to believe that murder is wrong, that stealing is wrong, that there are things that we all agree upon in a way, that this is not sectarian. and it seems like that's what's at issue. In other words, that we have as Americans an original covenant based on these ideas. That seems to have frayed dramatically in the last 50 or so years, bringing us to this point where the government is not doing that job.

Yeah, and let me just go back to what you said about a theocratic kingdom or a theocracy. There are only two theocracies. there's one in the past and that's Israel. That was the only theocratic kingdom in all of human history, where God was the king. And it was a model of the best of all possible situations, but Israel even failed to take advantage of that incredible opportunity. Since that collapse of that single theocratic kingdom, there is currently only the spiritual kingdom of the church. but in the future there will be another theocratic kingdom when the Lord Jesus comes back and reigns on the earth and establishes his kingdom and rules with the rod of iron and rules with

righteousness. Those are the only two theocratic kingdoms. Everything else is simply the message to the world you need to submit to the true God and his standards if you want to live the best life. Let's just pause there. Very important conversation with Pastor John. MacArthur, don't go away. Hi folks. Trying times. Just know they won't last. Trim times can be hard on our digestive track.

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T.com. Folks, I got some embarrassing news to share with you, but you know what? This is just the kind of a show where I don't care. I'm willing to lay my heart, you know, on the line. Here's the issue. Mike Lindell with my pillow. You may notice that I have a bobble hell of him near me. He's here to remind all of us that when you go to mypillow.com, you get whopping discounts

if you use the code Eric, okay? Now, there are a lot of people who haven't done that, and we have your names here. And Chris Heim's and Albin pointed out to me that there's like three pages of you whose first name is Eric. I mean, that's humiliating for me that even though your name is Eric, you're still not willing to use the code Eric. I mean, if you don't want to use it because it's my name, use it because it's your name. But the point is that I see who you are, and I just feel humiliated by this. Please go to go to mypillar.com.

It's okay, Mike. It's going to be okay. Go to mypillar.com. Use the code, Eric. You're going to get whopping savings in really high quality products. Did I mention that? Thank you. I'm talking to Pastor John McArthur in Southern California.

Pastor McArthur, you in many ways did something heroic. by keeping your church open and just the other day in contravention of a more recent edict, I suppose, whatever you want to call it from the governor chose to stay open. And so we're talking about some foundational principles here. What does it mean to be an American? What is freedom? When does our faith stay within the boundaries that we believe the American Republic gives it? We have tremendous religious liberty here, but of course, this is not a theocracy, nor would we want it to be, because that would itself contradict the freedom that the scripture gives us.

You were talking about, you know, what is a theocracy? And I think there's such confusion on this issue that I want to just keep going a little bit here. We have seen in our lifetimes the state overreach and begin. to push around people of religious faith and begin to tell them that they must do this or must do that, in effect, establishing a kind of secular religion. Is that part of what you see happening in California? Oh, yeah, there's absolutely no question about that. Look, the word of God is very clear on the sin of immorality, any kind of sexual immorality. And you've got, in California, you probably got the center of the pornographic industry here.

I mean, everything that's pornographic around the globe probably has its origins in Hollywood, and certainly the movie industry, the music industry, all of the stuff that comes out of there that's so vile. And then you've got the homosexuality, which has now been legalized by the Supreme Court. You saw the governor smiling the other days. He signed a bill that basically says a sexual attack,

on a child by a homosexual pedophile may not result in the perpetrator being listed as a sex offender, the judge has discretion in that because, you know, we don't want to put too strong limits on what judges can do with the LGBT people. You have 364 abortions a day in California. We lead all the states more than New York, more than New Jersey, which would be second and third. this is a wretched and wicked culture here. And so naturally the church speaks to that, straightforward truth from the Word of God. That's not what they want to hear. If the cancel culture is going to go after anything,

they're going to go after the people who don't only give an opinion, but they speak authoritatively from the Word of God. This is not acceptable in this environment for us to say this is the word of God, and God pronounces judgment on this society and the people who adhere to these kinds of iniquities and propagate them and perpetrate them. And we're warning you there is judgment to come. And the only hope is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who can forgive your sin and set you on a course of righteousness and bring you into his kingdom eternally. So that is not a message they want to hear. So I don't know that we could say on the front side that they're moved by this, but beneath that action, there is this hatred for the things of Scripture.

Jesus said, if they hated me, they're going to hate you as well. Don't be surprised. Well, we've seen this happening, of course, throughout Europe and Canada, and we knew that this kind of thing was happening here, was coming here, which is why I've spoken out so much on religious liberty, but never did we dream that COVID would happen and that that that would occasion the various governments, state governments, city governments to behave in this way.

That's something that we didn't see coming, and it has accelerated what is happening right now. Just for those of us who aren't unaware of the details, what is it that your church faces in opening against what the governor has said you can do? What happens to your church? Are you in a lawsuit right now? I know a number of pastors, Pastor Chey Ann, I spoke with, that they are suing the governor. Is every case different?

Where is your church with this? Well, yeah, we did sue. we did file a lawsuit in the county in the city of Los Angeles. It went through four hearings, and we were victorious in the first four, which kept us open, and we were not under any constraints, and neither had the health department filed any formal grievances against us.

So we were meeting up until last Sunday freely, because the courts had failed to give the county what they asked for to shut us down. But a week ago, there was a fifth trial that we had, and the judge ruled for the county for the first time with a temporary restraining order. Basically, the court said that Grace Community Church cannot meet indoors. That was the court order. We did meet indoors anyway. We did not pay any attention to the court order. So that means, as of now, we are in contempt of court.

Now, we haven't heard from the court what we're going to do, but we're going to keep meeting on Sunday, whatever that contempt means or may mean we're going to continue to do what we do. I think you, of all people, having written so brilliantly on Bonhofer and on Martin Luther, as I'm finding out, know what it means to say, here I stand, I can do no other. God help me. and that's where we are. We believe God is going to vindicate himself. And I'll tell you one thing, Eric, we are absolutely shocked at the number of people pouring into this church who've not been here before, filling up the worship center, filling up the chapel, filling up a tent in the parking lot, going into other buildings, several hundred thousand devices are connected for online. We're now broadcasting every service in six languages around the globe.

they see churches kind of folding up under the pressure, and it frightens them if their own churches aren't going to stand and hold the line, where will they turn? So there's almost a rush. There's an exhilaration in the people that are coming here and freely worshiping the Lord. It's not normally that they can defy the government, but they watch this government collapsing in every sense that they hold dear. And for them to be able to take a stand against that, and know, it's right because they're obeying Christ is an exhilarating spiritual experience. And there's a joy here that's beyond what I've seen in 50 years. I'm afraid we're out of time. Pastor MacArthur, always a joy and an honor to speak with you. I hope we'll have you back again soon to see where this

goes. I'm sure God will be glorified in any case. Thank you so much. Thank you, Eric. Where are you? Have you heard my career? rise through all my lonely lonely lonely lonely lonely lonely nights what can I say I've told you everything so why do I feel all alone are you still looking down