The Eric Metaxas Show - Patrick Knapp and Andrew McDiarmid (continued)

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

Patrick Knapp looks into the abuses of the Church with his book, "Understanding Religious Abuse and Recovery"; then, Andrew McDiarmid is back to share insights into the movie, "Braveheart."

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Ladies and gentlemen, buckle your seatbelts and keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times. Here comes Mr. Thrill Ride himself, Eric Mattaxas. Hey there, folks. Welcome on the program. We turn to a very, very serious, important subject right now. I have as my guest the author of a new book.

It's called Understanding Religious Abuse and Recovery. Patrick Knapp joins me now. Patrick, welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Eric. I, you know, I always, most of us filter everything through our own stories. And my story is. is in some ways the opposite of where we're going to go today,

which is, I think, why it's important for us to talk about this, because I typically don't. My story is that I was raised in a wonderful home. We went to church on Sundays, weren't really born again, weren't really serious about the Bible. And I kind of drifted and then found Jesus. Jesus found me and I was immediately welcomed into a wonderful, wonderful Christian community. It was St. Paul's Daryenne in Connecticut, just filled with people who loved

God, who were emotionally healthy and fun, knew the scriptures, were passionate about Jesus. And that really formed me. And it wasn't until years later that I would bump into people whose experience with the church had been the opposite of mine, had been tremendously negative. They had been in situations that you could describe as cult. even though they weren't, they were kind of Christian cults, very seriously Christian cults and that kind of thing. And it really stunned me that these places really existed and that one of the reasons so many people hate the God of the Bible or hate Christians is because they have been so wounded by some really sick people in those kinds of environments. And so I know that you experienced something like this. I know in your bio it says you had a 14-year involvement in a high-control, abusive Christian sect from 1970 to 1984 that really helped you make you an expert on the kind of horrors that we're going to talk about here today.

So tell us a little bit about that. How did you get involved in this group and when did you realize that this was not exactly the way Jesus does business, that this was something a little less than ideal? Well, good. Thank you for asking that question. My answer to that is I first got into the group that I was in. It was a small home church. I got into it out of a lot of disillusionment that I had with Christians, particularly with Christianity generally. And the small group that I became a part of in 1970 met in a home.

And initially it seemed to be relatively okay. There was nothing looking back that were huge red flags. But then over the course of years, it got worse and worse. and then finally the leader had this revelation, so-called revelation, that really he was not married to the woman he was married to. He was married to somebody else's wife in the spirit, as the language that he used. That brought about a division in the church, which at that time had reached about 100 people. and I remained with the leader and his new wife because he did actually divorce and then remarry. And that led to six and a half years separation from my parents from all of my relatives

and really from those on the outside of the group. It was a non-communal group, but it was absolutely very controlling as far as education, occupation, relationships, and certainly very damaging. Well, you hear about these things. I mean, over the years, many of us have heard about these things, and they all, these cults, whether they are, you know, Christian cults, and again, I say Christian, sort of in quotes, because obviously the behavior ends up being pretty far from Christian. But we're not talking about, you know, Jim Jones or whatever. We're talking about something that it just looks like a very bad version of

Christianity, and the way it always seems to go south is like what you just described. Some person just veering off into lunacy saying, I'm married to so-and-so in the spirit. And if you aren't confident in who you are and in what the scripture says, a young person or a manipulative, there's not even a word there, somebody who's easily manipulated, would say, Oh, okay. I don't really understand that, but I guess I'll go with that because this is somebody, this is an authority figure. And so you hear over and over of this kind of sexual sin as being, you know, one of the major doors into lunacy. And the other one, and I know we'll talk about it, is legalism, is this kind of controlling legalistic thing.

And so also the idea of separation from parents, the idea. Somehow it doesn't feel healthy. It feels like a cult. And I know that there are many people listening to this who've maybe dipped into this over the course of their lives. They've been part of communities that were maybe not as controlling as others. But these are dangers. These are dangers that I really don't often talk about. Well, yes.

In the term that my wife, Heidi and I, in the work that we do with becoming free, the term that we've used rather than use a word cultic, because cultic kind of, as you suggested, sends somebody into the idea that, oh, you know, we're going to be asked to drink poison Kool-Aid or we're going to end up in a big fire like Waco. And the term that we use is taco, T-A-C-O. It's an acronym, and it stands for totalist, meaning all-controlling thoughts, feelings, emotions, relationships, occupations, totalist aberrant, meaning off-centered, meaning out of the norm of history, and also out of the norm of traditional forms of Christianity.

So TA, and then see basically that the group identifies as a Christian group. of the Bible as their authority, but they use it in a way to manipulate and control other people, and an organization simply being two or more people. So the term taco, the acronym, Taco, is what we typically refer to when we're talking about the kind of group that I came out of. And I'm sorry, what is the C stands for? The C stands for Christian. And what do they identify as Christian? And what do the O stand for? The O organization.

Oh, okay. So just two or more people. Well, it, again, this is fascinating because I know people who have been through things like this. And of course, we've all read about things like this. And I would say the main point that I want to make up front, so people understand at least part of where I'm coming from, is that it is this kind of thing that has driven people away from Jesus. It is this kind of thing that has driven many people away, some forever, from the church that would give them life and hope and peace. And we have to be clear when something is a counterfeit,

or we have to have our antennae up to understand that there are crazy people out there. There are people out there who are controlling monsters who use the term a Christian. And again, it's not like I think there are so many of them, but there are enough to warrant a discussion about this. And you yourself, Patrick Knapp, you have, you've experienced so much of this. And you've written a book before we go to the break. I want to say the title of the book, folks. It's understanding religious abuse and recovery, discovering essential principles for hope and healing.

Patrick Knapp is my guest for this hour. We'll be right back. I want to remind you, please go to our website, ericmataxis.com. I can't remind you enough that we'd love you to sign up for the newsletter so that you can get the videos of these conversations. So you can share the videos of these conversations. Of course, you're welcome just to listen on podcast or you're welcome to listen on the radio. But we'd love you to know that there are videos of most of these. If you go to Eric Metaxis.com and click on the newsletter banner.

We'll be right back talking to Patrick Knapp. The book is Understanding Religious Abuse and Recovery. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Biden administration has caused a financial crisis and they have no clue how to fix it. Oil prices have skyrocketed and when oil prices go up, the cost of transportation and shipping spikes, leading the prices of goods to rise. And when we're already seeing record inflation, that's the last thing we need. Our economy is in trouble and you need to take steps to protect yourself.

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live a long, happy life by your side. These include premium quality superfoods like organic mushrooms, kelp, goji berry, two kinds of probiotics, and many more. Right now, there's a limited time offer exclusively for our listeners. For every purchase of longevity formula, you'll receive a free bottle of Paw Maid's hip and joint formula too. To claim your offer, go to pawmaid.com slash Eric or call toll-free 833 Paw Maid. That's P-A-W-M-A-D-E dot com slash Eric or call 833-P-P-A-M-A-M-D. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Patrick K-N-A-P-P, who has written a book Understanding Religious Abuse and Recovery. He was from 1970 to 1984 for 14 years involved in a high-control, abusive Christian sect. And we're talking about that. You know, Patrick, I have, I've had a number

of friends over the years who've shared with me similar experiences of being part of a group that was just extremely fundamentalist and controlling, controlling of behavior. Usually young people are prone to this kind of thing. And, you know, it's horrifying. When I've heard these stories, I've in a way been amazed that these two friends of mine that I'm thinking of, that they got out of it and became healthy, functioning Christians in love with God, in love with Jesus, in love with the Bible, that this didn't scar them forever. But it strikes me that many, many people less fortunate would have been scarred forever by these kinds of strange experiences. is. Well, and that's certainly true. The majority of people that Heidi and I life coach with are from this sort of background.

And really, when you look at a variety of other organizations that work with what we perhaps commonly refer to as cults, an awful lot of the people that are, that connect with them, come from a pseudo-Christian group. That's not uncommon. The International Cultic Studies Association, which is probably the largest organization of its kind, that work specifically with religiously abused or spiritually abused folks, the majority of the people that come to them for help and support come from, unfortunately,

forms of Christianity that are very unhealthy. Yeah. So it's interesting, too, because, you know, some people are geniuses at manipulating others. And if you claim to have God on your side, you know, it's the ultimate Trump card. God said this or my interpretation of what the Bible says says this, and I'm in leadership over you and whatever. And I mean, there are even, you even see elements of this, of course, in places that are not ultimately these kinds of groups, but that they would have some kind of legalistic authoritarian qualities kind of in that community. And it's, you know, it's an issue for some people. Some people, of course, listening have no idea what we're talking about, and I'm glad they don't.

but how did you get involved in helping people deal with what you call religious abuse? How did you and your wife get involved in ministering to those people? Well, you know, I came out, and my then wife came out in January of 84. And thankfully, we had contact with several people that knew a great deal more about what we'd gone through than what we did. There were folks from Denver Seminary that I had contact with. There were people like Gordon Lewis, who was a professor there for some time. And then more recent than that, Doug Grote Heis. And several others that really helped to start informing us and supporting us and encouraging us to find recovery.

Part of that was a two-year philosophy of religion degree that ended up being 12 and a half at Denver Seminary. And then a little over a decade ago, a doctoral program that I did in marriage and family counseling with an emphasis in attachment theory and family systems. And so those sorts of things, and particularly I can't stress enough, it's the relationships that be. bring about more than anything else that brings about the recovery, healthy relationships. So you and your wife, I neglected to mention it, you've created an organization called BecomingFree, and I believe the website is BecomingFree.org? Correct, yes. Becomingfree.org.

In case anybody listening knows somebody who has been through something like this, and you were introduced to me by Doug Grote Heiss, who's been on this program a number of times. But again, you know, my way into this is to realize that I have had friends that have experienced things like this. And they told me about it. And I thought, wow, how did you not see that that was off? And usually the answer is they were young. And they were, and this is a big piece of it, too. They were zealous for God. They were so zeal that their zeal really overcame common sense and judgment on some level. Well, and what Heidi and I suggest in our organization when they work with people is that it's a combination of factors.

It's a system that causes a person to be involved in an unhealthy religious system. And it's also a system that brings them health once they leave. And the part of that system includes certain relationships, certain education, certain experiences of coaching or formal professional counseling, but it's a system thing, part of which certainly is related to family of origin issues, birth family issues of roles, rules, and boundaries. We talk quite a bit about that over the course of time and working with people. But with different people that come out, they're ready for different sort of things. And everybody's recovery is going to look a little different.

I would think that you'd have some stories. Obviously, you can't share names, but can you give us an example of the kind of thing we're talking about? Yeah, we worked with a lady for a while that actually had come out of Waco. She had lost relatives in the fire. She had been there at Waco for some time. She and her sister and some other relatives. And she lived in the Denver area. and we worked with her in a couple of support groups that we ran, which we run periodic.

We don't run those on an ongoing basis because they're very, very labor intensive. But we worked with her, and she was ready initially to work with questions of thought reform or mind control. You know, what did that consist of? She was ready to work with the emotional triggers that she was experiencing after she came out. she wasn't ready yet to go to the family issues. That's sudden that came much later, which is very common. Unless the person is a second generation member, in other words, they were born into it, as opposed to joining it sometime when they're perhaps a young adult.

But working with her over the course of time, she had some wonderful recovery and really came to know Christ in a much deeper way than what she had known even before she joined Waco. So, Waco, I don't remember the details of Waco. In other words, I wouldn't automatically think of that as a Christian group, but I guess ostensibly it was a Christian group. But I just don't remember the details. Yeah, on the surface, it absolutely identified as a Christian group. a communal Christian group. And certainly for a lot of folks,

they don't recall the details because it happened. I think it was back in trying to recall the year it was. It's been about 20 years ago, almost 20 years ago now. Yeah. But certainly it was very abusive and very controlling. and but that's the extreme. The majority of groups are not that extreme. Nowhere near that extreme.

They're much more subtle. They are more like the type of group that I came out of. They aren't necessarily communal. They could be non-communal. And certainly, as I mentioned, the term taco the totalist aberrant Christian organization or otherwise sometimes referred to as a high, high demand Christian group.

Sometimes that's a term that is used for it. They come in a spectrum, some very severe, some very mild, but still very damaging. Yeah, and again, I think to myself that there are churches that I would say are, you know, roughly speaking, good churches, but they have elements of this. And so there's a complete, there's a complete spectrum. There are some of these kind of communal, you know, like it's more like a UFO cult. I mean, it's some really horrific, horrific stuff all the way down to churches where you see this. And again, even in the healthiest of churches, because we're dealing with human beings, we can sometimes have an authoritarian figure and so on and so forth.

So it is complicated. Folks, I'm talking to Patrick K-N-A-P. The new book is Understanding Religious Abuse and Recovery. and his organization with his wife Heidi is BecomingFree.org. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. Our annual mission to free slaves and sedan, along with our partner Christian Solidarity International, is making great progress. We're almost to our goal of giving freedom to more than 650 captives.

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It is astonishing to think that it is almost 30 years. It really is mind-blowing to think that this is 30 years. It seems like 10 minutes ago, but it's 30 years ago. It was the first days of the Clinton administration. I remember Janet Reno was part of what. part of the horror of how that unfolded, unfortunately, in any event. So in a remaining time, what would you like to talk about and or what should we touch on? Well, one of the things that Heidi and I are very passionate about is passing on to other people education about this topic.

We certainly want to do the life coaching. That's our number one goal is to work with people on a one-to-one basis, helping them to process their religious abuse and their recovery. But we also really look forward to doing more educational kind of opportunities, whether for myself, one of the things that I would love to be doing is specifically to be able to teach a class at a college level or a graduate level. I've got a tentative syllabus already put together and would love to have a 12 or 14 week period to be able to educate the college students into a broader picture or broader understanding of what religious abuse and recovery might look like. That's a big thing.

Also, we are associated with a 501c3. So if people wanted to provide donations, that would be wonderful as well. a lot of the time that people, when they come out of these kind of organizations, they don't have the resources to be able to get the kind of help that they really need. So that's certainly a possibility as well, and that's on our website. So, and the website, again, is BecomingFree.org. Becomingfree.org. So the book is Understanding Religious Abuse and Recovery,

discovering essential principles for hope and healing. for whom did you write this book? This is for people involved in this kind of thing. Well, it's primarily for those that really want to do a deep dive into the topic because I start with the history of religious abuse. I then rotate into what are the different perspectives of religious abuse. I tag four different basic perspectives and the main authors in those perspectives. I critique their strengths and weaknesses, and each of them have strengths and weaknesses.

And then I provide my own perspective that goes under the acronym Secure, S-E-C-U-R-E. And that is a acronym that suggests some of the basic principles that are needed, the essential principles, in order to find recovery from this kind of abuse. It's fascinating to me because in a way what we're talking about has a lot to do with simply human nature, sin nature, and how it can really find its way into everything, including and often particularly into religious communities. When I think of some of what Martin Luther writes about, his experiences in the high middle ages, that you know, you found pockets of this kind of thing. in the Catholic Church at that time, you find this, you really find this all through history. Yes. And it often affect, I mean, even people that I think of heroes of the faith

strike me sometimes of having a little bit of this. I mean, when I read about the, you know, severe asceticism of a David Brainerd or George Whitfield before he really has his, you know, his, what seems like a conversion, but this kind of this works oriented self-abuse in a way or allowing themselves to buy into a model of what it looks like to please God, which any healthy person would say, that seems sick. It seems like you're off. Well, and you bring up a good point, and that is there's an incredible amount of history of religious abuse, and there are some, for instance, Jonathan Edwards, who really sought to address the excesses in the church of his time in his book, Religious Affections.

You know, he does really a good job as long as you can unpack his language and kind of put it into a cultural context. But, yeah, and certainly, as you pointed up, and you know Luther much better than I do with your book on Martin Luther, which we found was one. Wonderful, absolutely wonderful book, by the way. Thank you. But he really understood a lot of the excessives that were going on to the Catholic Church at the time. And of course, that's why the Reformation took place. Yeah, it's amazing. It seems that everywhere you look in history, you find examples of these kinds of things.

And so we shouldn't be shocked, folks, when we find these things inside the church or inside organizations that purport to be Christian because we're dealing with human beings. beings we're dealing with sinners. And I just, I'm grateful for you, Patrick, and for your ministry. We're out of time for today, but I want to encourage people to find out more by going to Becomingfree.org. Again, it's becoming free.org. My guest has been Patrick Knapp. And the book is titled, Understanding Religious Abuse and Recovery, Understanding Religious Abuse and Recovery, Understanding religious abuse and recovery. Patrick Knapp, thank you so much. Thank you, Eric. I certainly appreciate the time here together. It's hard to start it all again, you know, I need you. Like it's the spring, you know, I need you.

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Folks, we return to my conversation from hour one with Andrew McDermott. We were talking about his article in the New York Post about technology, and then at the end of our one, we were segueing to his discussion on his own podcast with the great writer, Randall Wallace, who, among other things, wrote the film Braveheart. It's hard to believe that that's already 1995. It's kind of amazing. But you were saying, Andrew, that Wallace understands, as a Christian, he is a Christian, understands the idea of God as a storyteller.

And I think I wasn't expecting to do this, but in a funny way, when you think of God as a storyteller and you think of the idea of who we are as made in God's image, the idea of telling stories and narratives and so on and so forth is antithetical to the digital idea of information, information, information. If there is no God, we're just atomized bits of information, and there's no meaning, there's no grand narrative. That's the Enlightenment Project. That's the hyper-rationalistic, scientific, materialistic project that says there's no God,

and therefore, you know, we can almost become gods ourselves. And then there's this other idea, which you get when you talk about stories. and what it means to be a person thinking and having wisdom. And it's interesting to me that that's one of the reasons Randall Wallace is a great storyteller. He kind of taps into that idea. He understands that idea, as you obviously do. That's a wonderful point, Eric. You're right.

I mean, digital technology by default is a download, right? It's everything at once. And really, you look at Elon Musk and the efforts to, be able to download and connect to our brain, right? Who needs the story to be told to us when we can have all aspects of it all at once? Yeah, that's a great point. With storytelling, you as the storyteller

are in charge of when you release details and you're telling things one thing at a time, you don't give every detail to the person that's listening to your story all at once. You hold back. There's a beauty to that. There's an art to that, and you reveal things in time. And that is a classic hallmark of God Almighty.

He reveals things in time, right? All things become beautiful in his time. And so you're right. It's very antithetical to today's modern technological idea where we can get it all, right? Google is getting it all at once, you know, give us a million results, you know, and we have it all in our pocket. well, that really isn't how we're designed, and it's not really how God operates. Well, I mean, again, when we think of the idea of wisdom, wisdom is completely different and often antithetical to information and knowledge. You can be a mad genius who uses his intellect

to do great harm. Science, of course, can do tremendous harm just as it can do great good. but we've all, whether we know it or don't, bought into this larger narrative over the last centuries that all progress is good and we're drifting forward to. And it kind of ties into the idea of evolution, that we're all evolving towards something better, which is simply untrue on many levels. We don't have time to get into that,

but we've brought into that larger narrative and we forget that things can evolve or drift or trend in horrible directions, in wicked directions, and we act like, well, no, no, that's not true. We've kind of bought into these things. Now, for people who are not familiar with the film Braveheart, if you don't mind, tell me two things. First of all, how can people find your podcast on it?

Absolutely, yeah. The podcast is called Simply Scottish, and it's available on all major podcast platforms, and I'm also starting to make a foray into YouTube as well, so you can find my Randall Wallace interview on YouTube, but simplyscottish.com is where you'll find all the podcasts. Okay. And then the second question is for those who are unfamiliar, and there are many, because I keep forgetting how long ago 1995 is for some people. It predates the birth of

some listening right now. What is the general story behind Braveheart? Or what is the story of Braveheart? Yeah, William Wallace, you know, he was not a noble man. He didn't come from noble birth. His father was a common landowner. And, you know, this is the late 13th century, right? So he was born in the 1270s. And he was pulled into this conflict between Scotland and England. And in particular, Edward I, who really had a thing for wanting to,

to conquer the Scots. You know, he saw Scotland as another fiefdom, you know, as a place that he could also reign and rule. But he underestimated the Scots in a lot of ways, the English king. And Wallace was brought into this conflict and saw in the vacuum of power between Scotland and England, the Scottish king had died. There wasn't a strong person leading the country at the time. Edward the Longshanks took advantage of this and brought in the military and started to say, you're going to do it our way. And the Scottish people rebelled.

But until Wallace rose up, there really wasn't anybody pushing back and fighting back that could withstand what England was throwing at them. And, you know, the idea of Wallace is largely legendary because not much is known about him prior to 1297 or so. And so all we know about him is really the military campaign. We don't really know exactly why he came into it. But, you know, the idea is that he lost his love, his wife, to the hands of the English, and possibly his father and brother were fighting in the conflict too and lost their lives. But he came into it, he gave his all, and for a good handful of years, he brought the conflict to the English and won several key battles and really rallied the troops and even inspired the Scottish nobles who had allegiances with the English for different reasons, inspired them to a better cause, including the king Robert de Bruce, who then rose up and secured Scotland's freedom by 1314 and the Battle of Banagm.

So quite the story. I like the way you say Robert de Bruce. I would just say Robert the Bruce. We're going to be back. Final segment talking to Andrew McDermott. The podcast is simply Scottish. We'll be right back. Folks, it's incumbent upon me.

Before I continue my conversation with Andrew McDermott about Scotland and Braveheart and technology, to remind you that we are, for these next two weeks, continuing our campaign to free slaves in the Sudan. It's one of the most amazing things we've ever had the privilege of doing. And if you haven't participated, I just want to tell you this is a big deal. Please go to metaxis talk.com. You'll see the banner at the very, very top. But this is something magnificent that we get to participate in.

CSI wanted us to continue the campaign beyond the first of the year. So we're doing that now. If you have not participated, I just want to tell you, it really doesn't get more exciting than this. When something wickedly evil can be turned around 100% by you. So just go to MetaxusTalk.com and you'll see the banner. Get your kids involved. This is a beautiful, just a beautiful opportunity.

A few minutes left with Andrew McDermott. So Andrew, we're talking about your podcast, Simply Scottish. We're talking about technology. Robert de Bruce. It's kind of funny. Braveheart is one of those films that it has become a classic. It's an amazing thing how people reference it. And Mel Gibson's performance in that is just famous now, absolutely famous. Yeah, everyone likes to root for the underdog.

But again, I do think that it's Randall Wallace's craft with the storytelling that makes it continue to resonate. You know, this is not just the story of some dude that got under war and, you know, did his thing. This is how he espoused freedom, even when his country didn't have freedom. He got to live that spirit of freedom in the woman he loved, in the king that he inspired, Robert de Bruce, in his friends. Even, as Randall Wallace points out in my interview with him, even the crowd that comes to watch his execution is inspired. and wowed by how William handles himself at the very end of his life. This is someone who gave his life for Scotland, but also for the greater ideal of freedom. And Eric, as you know, freedom is just a wonderful theme to think about in the digital age.

And it gets us back to Jacques Alouille, you know, the philosopher of technology. He thought that we as Christians and even non-Christians can affirm our freedom, but we have to take over. We have to say thanks, but no thanks to big tech. We have to say, I'll take some of your services, but I'm in charge here, okay? I'm the one that's going to set the limits. I'm the one that's going to hit the power button and turn it off at the right time, and I'm going to affirm my freedom in this technological age. Well, it's interesting because when you put it that way, it strikes me that freedom

is at the very heart of what it is to be human. There's no escaping it, that if you're a human being, you, whether you like it or not, whether you act on it or not, you have a choice either to be free, to be fully human, to live courageously, to live with faith, or not. And the temptations not to do those things are infinite and everywhere, in every generation, in different ways. And we're, of course, facing it in a new way today with technology and with other things that have encroached upon us, but at the heart of it all is this idea of freedom, which is inevitably a biblical idea. I just spoke to Oz Guinness at a Socrates in the city, which will be airing later

this month, about how Moses and the Israelites at Sinai in a way showed the world the first example of what this is, to leave bondage, to be free. It's just amazing. Lots more to talk about, out of time. Andrew McDermott, I'm just so glad for at least this initial opportunity to speak with you, folks. Check out Simply Scottish the podcast. Check out Discovery Institute. Check out Andrew McDermott. And Andrew, thank you so much. Eric, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.