The Eric Metaxas Show - Peter Jedick

Episode Date: June 12, 2020

Through a fictional account based on his own first-hand experience, Peter Jedick tells the story of the world-shaking massacre from 50 years ago during the Vietnam era, in "Hippies - A Kent State Love Story."

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. It's the show about everything. And we do mean everything. Yes, even that. Yep, and that too. Oh, you bet. Definitely that. Now, here's everything you want to host, Eric Mattaxas.

Hey there, folks. Welcome to Eric Mataxis show. As you know, this is the show about everything, which means that you don't know what you're going to get on a given day. Sometimes we talk to novelists. Sometimes we talk to people who've made films. Sometimes we talk to political figures. Sometimes we talk to people about Jesus experiences. We talk about everything on this program.

We're more about culture than we are about politics, that's for sure. But since you know that I'm a writer, my predilection is always my instinct to talk to other writers. We found a book that I have to say, I want you to hear the story. I want you to get to know the author. The title of the book is Hippies. The 50th anniversary of the horror of the Kent State University shooting, where four college students were killed by the National Guard. It's one of these things that if you live through it, you remember it.

And the author of this book, Hippies, Peter Jeddick, I'm going to ask him when he comes on how to pronounce his name. He's written a story of what he's written. happened and it's very important and actually here's the point very very timely with what we're going through as a nation right now peter welcome to the program it's a joy to have you hey thanks eric nice meeting you how do we pronounce your last name uh jetic eastern european yeah jeddick yeah how would you know i'm supposed to take your word for it yeah i've heard that that's what people call me Jetic. Since Jetic, I will say Jetic, and since you're the author, listen, I'm very excited to talk to you

about this, Peter, because your book Hippies, I have a copy for people who are, you know, looking on screen, whatever. This is, you live this. And I want you to tell my audience briefly, just so they know what we're going to talk about. What is your role in what happened? It can. Kent State 50 years ago, and why did you write this book? Well, I was a spectator, and I was on campus when that tragedy happened. I was at Kent, a student. And I wrote the book because, you know, I'm a writer. I'm a journalist, and I wanted to write a novel like everybody else.

They say, write what you know. And since I was there, and since that was actually an international event, I mean, the whole world knew about Ken State. It was like the Kennedy assassination. Everybody knows where they were when it happened, if you were old enough. And I wanted to write a story. I want to make it entertaining, though. So I wrote a novel.

I wrote a love story that's happening while all this craziness is going around and around us. It was kind of like today. I just wanted to point out how crazy things were, and you kind of almost accepted it because it was so crazy. Do you know, there were protests and riots and all this stuff was going on at the same time? Well, I only read the first part of the book, but I just want to say, first of all, I meant to mention that you're a journalist, you're a professional writer, and you're writing, grabbed me right out of the gate. And as a writer who's working on a couple of books right now,

it kind of challenged me because you realize it's important to do that with a book. But you do that. And then as I was reading it, what astounded me was how nothing has changed in 50 years. In many ways, I could have been reading about campus today. I mean, it's an astounding thing. In other words, there are a larger parallel. but just generally speaking, the hippie culture that you described, that you live through, in a funny way, we've never moved past that. That is campus culture. And now what is happening in this country is so dramatically parallel to what you share in this book. That's why I was excited to have you on to talk about the book, Hippies, because you live through this and because, well, tell us about your friend, Sandy and that whole thing. So people, again, understand what we're talking about. Well, if you want me to get to Sandy, that's kind of the end of the story.

But I know, but people, this really happened is my point. And I knew two of the students that were killed. That's the main thing. That's why I really got to me, like you said. And Sandy was a great girl, and she was very funny, and everybody loved her. And she was just trying to help deaf people learn how to communicate. That was her major. And she was just walking to class.

She had nothing to do with the protest. She wasn't a hippie. She wasn't a protester. she was just walking a class with one of her friends and she got killed. And imagine trying to explain that to her parents, you know, just send her kid off the college to become a deaf educator. I mean, you talk in the book about how you were, there was a Lou Rawls concert.

Is that right? No, that's the story I wrote for the Plain Dealer afterwards about how I knew her. She called me Lou because when I first met her, I just came home from a Lou Rawls concert, and we were having a lot of fun with that, making fun of Bowling Green, which was another school I just came to visit where the Lou Rawls concert was

and some girl dumped me there. And we were having fun with it. So she always called me Lou. That was her nickname for me. So every time I hear it's a Lou Rawls song, I think of her. Well, that's the thing. Lou Rawls died in 2006,

and your friend was killed in 1970. Right. And I just want, I want my audience to understand that in many ways this was a moment ago. For folks like you and me, this was a moment ago, especially for you. You lived through this. You were an adult. This was your friend.

This was a student. And the parallels with what are happening in this country today are so striking. I mean, we could have talked about this book just because it's the 50th anniversary and it's a good book and it's interesting. And, you know, you and I have met. But I mean, the parallels to what is happening right now in this country are just crazy similar. And so I do want to talk about that. Now, look, there's a lot of young people listening to this program who don't have a clue what was going on around that time. So frame it for us in this novel Hippies, which is based on real life events.

Obviously, you just told us two of your friends were killed. Students were killed. I mean, I still can't get my head around this. All right. It was good. No, go ahead. It's a claimant for people who don't know anything about Kent State or whatever. Right.

Well, back then, in 1969, 1970, it was all about the Vietnam War. And the attitude of the country was changing. Like our bus baby boomers, when we were going off, we were graduating, like when I was graduating from high school in 67, you were expected to go to Vietnam and defend the country, like our parents did, the World War II generation. And we were all for it. But then people started really.

this war was not a good war. There was no sense to it. That kids were getting killed at the same rate as World War II, and nothing was happening. I mean, Vietnam was no threat to the United States, like the Germans with their A-bombes and their arm. Vietnam didn't even have a Navy or an Air Force or anything, you know. And my friends were coming back. They went to Vietnam, and they came back and telling horror stories. And so the whole mood of the country was changing.

So the students started protesting. And when we first started protesting, our parents, this was the big gap. Like, this is the parallel to today, except instead of, I had the gap between today, it's Republicans and Democrats, the red and blue. Back then it was parents and students. It was a generation. They called the degeneration gap back then. And, you know, parents, and if you were against the war, they called you a communist.

Kind of like they call the Republicans on campus today, they call them fascists, you know. So there's a little similarity there, too. Well, I have to interrupt just to say that now today, you're politically conservative, you're a Christian and others. You're not somebody, you're not some woke liberal. But what you're saying is that at the time, 50 years ago, there were good reasons to be against the war. In other words, it was not an open and shut case that there were some radicals that were against the war, that much of the country felt like this is a different kind of war. We're not fighting Adolf Hitler.

We're boys are coming home in body bags. We don't seem to be making progress. It was really not clear to most Americans what was going on. And those who were most vocal about it were obviously young people. Right. You had nail on the head. You know your history there, Eric. That's exactly right.

to people, the students, you know, because we're the ones that we're going to have to go, you know, and so there was a little bit of a self-interest involved, you know, and so all these college campuses were having protests. At the beginning, they called the protesters communists, because you were on the side of Vietnam, you know, but we were really on the side of Vietnam. We just wanted to get out of it, you know, and end the war. And Nixon was elected to end the war. Well, I want to talk, man, the parallels are nuts. Folks, do not go away. I'm talking to Peter Jadik about his new book, Hippies. Actually, the audio book is just out. It's called Hippies. We'll be right back. Welcome back to the air contact the show. I'm talking to Peter Jettic, J-E-D-I-C-K, Peter J-E-Jetick.

The book we're talking about Peter's book is called Hippies. Peter, I got to tell you, there's so many parallels that's so crazy. But my first thing I have to say is, how is it possible that there has not been a major book with the title Hippies? It's like, you know, I mean. Like that's, that is the name. How did you get that title? It's just astounding to me, because it's so basic, so well-known as a concept. A friend of mine came up with it, you know, I thank her. She was the one to help me design the book. And she said, I was just, I was tossing all these other names around. And she just said, hey, why don't I just call it hippies, you know? And that was the thing. They called us hippies. They called me a hippie because I had

a beard and long hair. We didn't consider ourselves hippies. This is. This is like the difference between the real student activists, the real revolutionaries that, you know, wanted to throw over the government. But 90% of us were just watching spectators. And we were just, they were called hippies by our, by the generation. You know, I considered a hippie somebody in a commune in California, you know. But according to our parents' generation, I was a hippie just because of the way I looked, you know. Well, there was a, there was a divide in the country where, you know, if you had long hair, or you know, your hair was long itch, depending on what year we're talking about.

Right, exactly. And so suddenly, if you didn't have like a military crew cut, some people call you a hippie or a communist or a pinko or a radical or whatever it is. But so you live through this. And let me just ask you, because I want to get to the parallels, but what made you decide to write hippies? Well, like I said, I wanted to write a novel, and I knew the story. and I felt bad, you know, I wanted people to understand how crazy the times were in that we wouldn't repeat it.

And I think we're kind of repeating it again. But that how the crazy the times were leading up to it. So I made a love story, so it would be entertaining. I mean, it's actually a novel, but it's based on facts that everything I went through. And just an entertaining story to teach some history, because I'm a history buff like you, that would teach people that maybe weren't even interested in the times. But because it's a love story, it would bring them out and get them to read it and maybe learn a little history along the side.

I know people are talking to you about making a film about the book and that you've just recorded the audio book version of this. Did you record it or someone else recorded it? I paid somebody. I didn't trust myself doing it. Oh, you've got, okay, but so there's an audio book version of it. A professional, yeah. It's coming out pretty soon.

It should be out pretty soon, yeah. Well, the thing about, again, about the book hippies and about the parallel 50 years ago, it's mind-blowing to me because tell my audience, who many of whom, most of whom probably don't remember, don't know, how is it that the National Guard had been called out to come to a campus, Kent State, Ohio? Like what in the world is the National Guard doing there with rifles such that four students could be killed? It is unthinkable to me today that four students were killed, and we can understand looking back why the world went insane that students were killed by our own National Guard.

Help us understand that. For folks who don't know that period in history, what led up to this? Okay, well, all colleges across the country were protesting the war. Well, we really have set it off, kind of like this George Floyd thing. What set it off was Nixon made a speech, and he was invading, Cambodia. And we elected Nixon to end the war. He promised he was going to end the war. And this looked like he was expanding the war. What year was? What year did Nixon make the speech? Well, this was that weekend. The Thursday before May 4th, this is what set everything off.

This is early 1970. April 30th, 1970. He has a Thursday night. He says he's going into Cambodia. Nobody came out of the blue. Let me ask you again, just because again, people don't know this history, and I don't know much of this history. What does Cambodia have to? do with this. Now, there's what was the advantage, the strategic advantage militarily that we would have had, or that Nixon thought we would have had, to go into Cambodia? Because, you know, most people think this is a war between North and South Vietnam. It's that simple. Where does Cambodia fit in? Very good, Eric. That's important. What he was to say wasn't that bad of an idea militarily because this is where the supply lines to North Vietnam are coming from Cambodia.

He was going to go on and just break the supply lines. Militarily, it's not a bad idea. But the press hated Nixon the way they hate Trump. And they made a big deal, and everybody made a big deal, and it just lit up all the college campuses. And Kent was just like every other college campus. So the next night, Friday night, all the kids are downtown. They got rowdy. They broke a couple windows.

It wasn't a looting or anything, but it was a little bit of a, or, a riot, you know, but it wasn't a real riot. It was just kids getting crazy because it is Cambodia thing. It wasn't just in Kent, it was the whole country. So the mayor of Kent, the city of Kent, which is next to the university, calls Governor Rhodes and he says he wants the National Guard, you know, because the residents are getting, getting a little upset that the kids are broken the windows. What you're telling me is that this is going on all over the country. Right. But the mayor of this town, Kent, Ohio decides he wants the National Guard. He calls up, he calls the governor to get the National Guard.

How many places around the country besides this town, a lot of people I've never heard of call Kent, had called up the National Guard. Now, there was, how much of an anomaly was this to call the national guard in for this level of rioting in 1970? You know what? That's a good question. I wish I knew the answer, but I don't. But I know that all the campuses were going crazy. I don't know how many time as how many others. I'm sure other ones did the same thing for the same reason. In fact, Ohio State, which was in our same state, they had a lot worse of a Friday night than we had, but for some reason, the mayor called the, but what really happened the next night that we did was kind of, that we didn't do the radicals. Did they burn down the ROTC building,

which was the ROTC building? That's the Reserve Officer Training Center. That's like, that was the military on campus. So, you know, back then people hated the military because of this war, which was kind of stupid. It wasn't the kids' fault that the military was doing. It was, you know, it was actually Lyndon Johnson's fault. He's the one that sent him over there, you know. But that's another story. But they burned down to the ROTC building on Sunday on Saturday night, and that really brought the guard in. And the guard just showed up about the same time as they turned down. That was a symbol of the military on campus. But the point is, just again, to clarify, and these are the parallels to today, you have a lot of students.

that are peaceful protesters against the Vietnam War. Some that are rowdy. They're involved in what we could be called rioting, if you're breaking windows and stuff. Then you have hardcore radicals and instigators who really are trouble, and they're mixed in. And so they're the ones that burn down the ROTC building. So the National Guard is sent in.

And, you know, who's the National Guard? Why are they not in Vietnam? Who are these young men that are with the National Guard? I guess part of me wonders, you know, what's going through their mind? They think, you know, we're going to kill some hippies. We're going to kill some radicals. I mean, I don't know what could have instigated this. That's a good question.

That's what never came out. You know, they were young people just like us. And they were in there to get out of, so they wouldn't have to go to Vietnam, to be honest with you. That's why they were joined the National Guard. So if you were in the National Guard, you didn't go to Vietnam. So they were like young kids, too. And the Sunday before May 4th, everybody's walking around campus. It's crazy.

There's a tank in the front of the library. And there's National Guard is all over. But the National Guard was talking to trying to pick up the college chicks. They're talking to each other. There's pictures. We have tons of pictures, which is great because there are a lot of journalists there are the photojournalism majors. We had a great journalism department at Kent. So we had like another guy just wrote a book, he's got 150 pictures of it.

So you can see what's going on, you know. So the National Guard and they were talking to each other and do fraternizing and everything. And then the next day it just blew up. And what actually happened is kind of crazy. And it's just a protest that kind of got out of control. I can go to more detail right now if you want. Well, no, please do. I mean, first of all, you said there's a tank there.

why in the world? You know, this is, I guess this is what fascinates me how things escalate. Wrong, people make wrong decisions. When you talk about bringing in a tank, wow, like, why would they bring in a tank? It just came with the guard. They came with all their stuff, you know?

And they came with the rifles and the bayonets. And the sad thing is, most of the kids didn't think they even had bullets in these rifles. That's another solid. But let me explain May 4th. what happened because we're talking about it escalating. So the next day, May 4th, the kids already had this rally plan and the protest of war, you know, the students, the ones that do this

protesting, just set it up. But the National Guard had come in because of the burning of the ROTC building and they took over to campus and they said there's martial law and they said, you can't have a rally. It's illegal. But most of the kids didn't get the memo. They didn't know, you know, there was no instant news like today, you know. After the kids went home for the weekend, they show up and their National Guards on campus. And they say, so everybody goes to this rally. And there's only about 50 protesters that are actually the hardcore protesters. But you've got a couple thousand other kids that are just watching.

What's going on with the, you got the guard and you got the protesters and they're... We're going to, okay, this is the cliffhanger. We're getting right to the point here, folks. Do not go away. I'm talking to the author of a new book, Hippies. We'll be right back. make this hope. Hey folks, President Trump's birthday is coming up June 14th.

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Hey, folks. I'm talking to Peter Jettick. His book is called Hippies. And we're talking about what happened 50 years ago, Kent State University. Okay, so what day was this? This is Sunday night? It was Monday morning. It was Monday afternoon and noon. A lot of kids were still going to class. If you look at these pictures, a lot of kids are carrying books. And they didn't have backpacks. And your kids are just walking between classes and all in the National Guard. And they're going to have this rally, this protest against the war on what's called the Commons. It's the flat park. It was a hill. It was a hill. Milly campus. It's a flat part in the Miller campus. May you kind of explain in your book that the radicals who were staging these rallies would do it at noon hoping to kind of catch people between classes that they would be, they would kind of be out and about. In other words, they didn't need to make a special trip. They would just be kind of passing by and hopefully they would, you know, stop and listen to whoever's speaking. Right. That was a very smart move they always made. And so you had a couple thousand kids.

They're going to launch. They're going to class. And they decide, and they say, and they see what's going on. So this is the the student body grew right there. And they're having this trying to have this protest, peaceful protest. And the National Guard says you can't have it. So they put a couple of guys in the Jeep with guns. And they go up to the front of them and say, you got to disperse. And the kids thought, well, that's like we have a right to assemble. They didn't know what the National Guard was martial law and all this stuff, you know. So they threw some tear gas to break it up. And the kids threw the tear gas back at them. and it was almost everybody thought it was over.

This is the way was going on probably on most of the campuses in the country. You know, the national, we did our part. We had a protest that we showed we were against the war. The National Guard did their part. They broke up the protest. And they know, everybody goes home. But for some reason, a little group of them chased the kids up a hill over a hill and to another side of the building.

I was watching the Commons part. So on the other side of this building. A group of National Guard. guardsmen with guns are chasing a group of kids up until now. We have no idea why they would be doing that, I guess. Just to keep breaking it up and they keep it going or something. No one knows that's that one, that was studied,

they had lawsuits and all this stuff. And no one knows what really happened, but what really, what we know happened, they went over the hill and they, and they got themselves in a little trouble. They got themselves in a bad spot where they were cornered by some fences. And then they came out of it.

And all of a sudden they went back up the hill and they turned and it fired. Now, it's been debated why they did this. How many national guardsmen are we talking about right now? 20 of them. It's called a troop, troop G, you know, I'm here and a G. So what was the, and others, what did they say was the reason for pulling the trigger on students? Well, they never really, they said it just they were, they were being threatened, which wasn't true. couple kids threw a little rocks. There are no rocks on campus to throw, you know.

Kids were giving them the finger, which wasn't smart and swearing at them, calling them baby killers. But I think it had been building up this whole weekend, you know, because they've been fighting, been pulling back and forth with the kids and a couple other demonstrators. Some reason they got mad, and they all fired at the same time, 13 seconds. They fired 67 shots and 13 seconds. Excuse me. This is the real tragedy. 67 shots. Right. fired at civilians, college students, six and seven shots. I mean, is there any wonder we're talking about this 50 years later?

Right. And the thing is that I think my theory is somebody gave them an order. They tried to prove this later on. They couldn't prove it. I think they decided they had enough. And I think one of their bosses, one of the generals or something said, we're going to show these kids, you know, we're tired of this crap. We're going to show these kids to teach them a lesson, you know.

because they all fired at the same time. They tried to say it was like spontaneous, but I think somebody gave them an order. But here's a question. I mean, and again, I'm speaking out of pure ignorance, but is it possible that they did that to scare the students, not to kill the students, and that their aim was so bad that they hit four students?

I mean, because this is, it's just hard to believe that national guardsmen would fire to kill students. It's just very hard for me to understand what could drive them to that. Yeah, no one could understand it. That was why. Why it happened, you know, people say it probably would have happened somewhere because all these protests going on.

Just saying it happened to Kent. So, you know, some of them later on say they shot in the air, they didn't shoot at anybody. And, you know, some of them had to be shooting at people. But, I mean, this is the point is, like, if one person had been killed, it would be a national tragedy. Right. But for four to be killed and they have 67 shots fired within a couple of seconds,

I mean, that's what makes this, you know, any history book written about America will include this in it and does include this in it. This is one of the things that happened in our history is one of the most shameful, horrifying incidents. And because we're talking about the parallels, I mean, clearly similar things are happening can happen right now. And that's one of the reasons I think it's important for people to know this history. Yeah, and you know what? I've never got to imagine nine kids were also wounded. But, you know, this is an international event. This is a, I had a friend that was a girl that was studying in Switzerland, and she saw it on TV the same day.

This is how big it was that the American, that this is unheard of that the American soldiers would shoot out of their own American citizens. You know, this was, that's why it was such a big event. That's why it was like the Kennedy assassination. You never, you never hear about the wounded. I mean, there are people wounded and all kinds of things. You hear about those who are killed, but those were wounded. That's a big thing to be shot, not killed, but to be shot. Who knows, I don't know the details of what those injuries were.

But obviously now you're talking about 13 people who took bullets. That's extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary. We're going to go to a break here. I got to tell you, Peter, it's just a fascinating thing that this is 50 years ago and that the parallels are so dramatic and that you wrote a book about that period. Hippies is the title of the book.

Peter Jettick is the author of the book. This is the Eric Metaxe show. We'll be right back. Folks, welcome back talking to Peter Jettick. The book is hippies. Peter, we're talking about this dark time in our history 50 years ago, tremendous parallels. You mentioned that these students are calling the National Guard

baby killers. Many people don't know that. Talk about that because, you know, the idea that there's terrible stuff going on in Vietnam. And when these vets return, many of these GIs return, working class people, they serve their country. They're spat on when they come back. They're called baby killers. I mean, this is just dark stuff with dramatic parallels right now with the cops. Yeah, that's what I was, I was like to talk about that.

too. Like what they treated the military back then, the way they were trying to treat the police now, which is kind of sad because it wasn't the average soldier's fault. He was just doing what he had to do. You know, he didn't want to go to Vietnam. He was following orders and he had to go there. And because, you know, they had that big picture of the one guy killing some babies over there. And they all became branded as baby killers. They treated the vets like that. And then the National Guard was just assimilar. They treated them. They thought they were like, you know, the soldiers. they were part of the military. That's why they burned down to ROTC building.

It was a symbol of the military on campus. And that was a big deal. For a couple years before that, all the protests had these demands. And one of the demands was get Rotsie off campus. So there was something physical on campus that represented the military. So they could, by going after Rotsie, this is how they could go after Vietnam. But it wasn't the average soldier's fault. He was just doing his duty, just like the National Guard guy.

I'm sure you didn't want to be there. Well, as I say, the parallels with cops today, I mean, when a couple of cops commit a vile crime, it is horrific that Americans would blame other cops for that vile crime and would spit on them and call them names. And this is exactly what happened 50 years ago with American troops. You got young kids just doing, their duty and because of the horrors of a few maniacs out there committing unspeakable crimes in

Vietnam, they were all called these vile names. And you can think how that would sting and how that would lead to ramping up the tension more and ultimately, obviously, to something like this happening. Right. And a lot of people argue that the reason we were protesting was so we could end that so that they wouldn't have to go there and kill babies, you know. So, you know, that was what we were, so I think history came back on our side at the end of it, that, you know, they wanted to stop the war. And historians, I know you're a history buff. Historians say that the Kent State tragedy actually really sped up the end of the war. After that, Nixon was in big trouble, and he knew he had to end that war. He was been dragged, he was elected to end the war, he was dragging his feet. And after

the Kent thing, he said, this is out of control, you know. And another thing, after, uh, The Kent tragedy, schools all across the, colleges across the country closed. I think I read the day or half of them closed. And like four million students went on strike because they just closed the universities. And it's just like what happened lately with that pandemic. You know, everybody went home. And people don't realize how crazy that was. Well, it is interesting, too, that, you know, history gives you perspective.

And as I said, you know, you back then, you know, you're a college hippie. so-called or you look like one. And yet today, you know, you're Christian, you're conservative. And you can see both sides of the issue. And we can all look back with, you know, 20-20 hindsight, pun intended, and realized that it wasn't a black and white issue. Those who said that, you know, being in Vietnam was a good thing, there was another side to it. The ability, over time to see the same with Iraq and George W. Bush. And I guess it's the role of art, you know, and the role of media and culture to try to help us get perspective.

It's one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you about this, is that we have to step back and get perspective. We can't just be so in the moment that we're taking sides and not seeing, is there somebody on the other side who actually has something? to say. You're very good, very perceptive there, Eric. But here here's the thing also as a historian, looking back,

you know, this actually, people don't realize the Vietnam War was started by John F. Kennedy. And he was Lyndon Johnson had re-ramped it up. He sent a couple hundred thousand kids over there. And he was the one that at first, when I went to Ken as a as a freshman,

and he said in 1968 he wasn't going to run for re-election. The whole dorm lit up and it was cheering and that he wasn't going to run for, they hated them. And but within a couple years, and then they elected Nixon to end it. And when he didn't end it right away, that's when, and after May 4th, especially, this is the real historical perspective on May 4th, after Kent State, it became Nixon's war.

It became a Republican war when it really was a Democrat war. It was really the, no, this is what you need to perspective. I don't know if they teach that in the schools. I doubt it, but that's, as a conservative, that's. Well, look, there is no doubt. I mean, most people know that Lyndon Johnson was the one without any question who turned this into a huge war. It was not a huge war under JFK, but Johnson turned it into a huge war. Many, many, many Americans were killed.

Very different. Iraq and Afghanistan can't compare to the numbers of body bags sent back to this country, coffins. It's a whole other level. But I guess the question is, why would Lyndon Johnson do that? What was he thinking? I never really kind of understood that. Well, real quick, though, as far as the casualties, there's just as many casualties in Vietnam as World War II.

People don't realize it. It wasn't a little war. It was a huge war, you know. What he did, what the idea was back then, they had something called the domino theory. This is the same thing with Korea. They thought if the communists took over South Vietnam, the next thing they do is come across the ocean in Bay,

in Bay, California. It was crazy. I mean, you know, South Vietnam didn't have a Navy. They didn't have an Air Force. They had nothing. It was a civil war. We didn't have any business even being in there. Let them have their civil war, you know, especially, you know, the casualties as much as

World War II. And then they had to say, so they finally disproved that theory. But that was the theory that they were all, these were like World War II guys, Kennedy and Johnson. And that's, that was their attitude. We go, well, we got to go in there and kick some butt, you know. Well, it's just amazing to think that you have a Democrat, LBJ, who, buys into this because usually in this day and age, you know, Democrats of posture as the,

you know, the party that that's against war and history says very, very different. We're going to go to another break. We'll be right back final segment with the author of hippies. Hippies, by the way, folks, is a novel about this period. Peter Jettick is the author. This is the Eric Metaxus show. Go to Metaxus Talk.com. We are on YouTube. Also go to the Eric Texas show channel on YouTube and you can watch this as a video. Hey there, folks, talking to Peter Jettick. The book is Hi there, folks. Talking to Peter Jettick, the book is Hippies. Peter, we've been talking about this history, but your book, Hippies, is a novel. So why did you write a novel rather than a first person account of your experience during this?

Or did you just decide to mix them together? Well, I want to make it entertaining. So people who aren't even interested in history, would like it, you know. And so it's a love story. It's the two main characters are trying to fall in love with all this other stuff going on. It wasn't just about May 4th either. It's about a lot of little things leading up to May 4th. A lot of little crazy stuff.

Like in one chapter, we go to the National Moratorium, which is the November before 1970, November, 1969, it was the biggest demonstration against the war in a history of the country. It was like a half a million kids went there. Like, that's one chapter. which a lot of interesting stuff happened there. Like we went, we just happened to get a ride there with the head of the STS, the Students for Democratic Society.

He was the big radical on campus. And he's driving a big bakery truck on his way of Washington. We just, you need a gas money. So we jumped in with them and we thought we just wanted to go to Washington. And we end up in the middle, kind of like Forrest Gump, we end up in the middle of this big demonstration. You know, we wanted to see Washington. And all these adventures we had. And most of them are based on actually.

things I saw before May 4th. So it's just all this stuff leading up to it. Yeah, so people who want kind of a social history of that period, they can read this novel. And you say it's a love story. I'm trying to think, is this, from what I read, is this Sandy's friend that the protagonist is in love with or is it Sandy herself? Oh, Sandy's now. She shows up later. I did include the four people that got killed later in a book, just so people would know who, giving some, you know, a little personality to the names. Everybody knows their names. I include them at later in the book, but the love story is two fictional people based on some of my own romantic adventures, you know, leading up to May 4th. Like I said, it's all entertaining stuff, crazy stuff, but just to show

how crazy things were. Things were out of control, but you kind of accepted them. You know, accepted all the craziness because what could you do about it? You're a college kid. You're just going with the flow, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just think a lot of people feel that way about what we're going through right now. It's going to be an interesting summer in America, an election coming up. It's what are you doing?

I know that you wrote this book a couple of years ago. What do you do with yourself these days? I know you're a writer. Are you working on anything in particular? I'm trying to write another novel. I wrote one about high school. Same thing. I went back, and I took my high school and put it back in World War II.

That's called the West Tech Terrorist. You might want to look at that one. That's about World War II, my dad's generation. But I took my high school experience and moved it back to then. Now I'm going to work on something about my grade school. I'm kind of going back on my life. And it's kind of based on, I'm trying to maybe use a little league team, like bad news bears to show what was going on.

And that was a crazy time, too, just. But you've been a writer your whole professional life. Listen. You've been a writer your whole professional life. Yeah, I've been a writer. I was writing for the Ken State newspaper. I wrote for my high school newspaper. And like I said,

the guy I give some credit to those photographers. The one guy, John Philo, he took a picture of the dead student with a girl screaming over the dead body. He wanted to pull a surprise for that. That was on the cover of Newsweek. And another guy took a picture that was on the cover of Life magazine.

So it was a big event. That picture that you described of the girl, you know, over the body of her friend, that's one of the most famous pictures of the 20th century. sadly. We're out of time. Peter Jetic, congratulations on your book, Hippies. I look forward to meeting you in person in my travels around the country, and I look forward to hearing from my audience about their reaction to the book. Thanks for being my guest. Oh, thank you, Eric. Nice meeting you.