The Eric Metaxas Show - Ravi Zacharias, Part 2 (Encore)

Episode Date: May 20, 2020

From last July, Eric and Ravi Zacharias conclude their conversation on the relationship between believing in a God of moral truth and the implications of that belief in society at large. (Encore Presentation)

Hey, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. I'm the announcer Todd Wilkerson, and I'm taking a bubble bath right now. Yeah, it's such a treat, luxuriating in this warm water with scented candles and my favorite rock mononoff. Oh, no, no, no, sorry, it's pop off. Anyway, that's the beauty of radio. No one can see you. In your nakedness. Well, I'd like to get back to my fashion magazine, so let me introduce your host, Eric Mataxis.

Oh, whoops. Hey, folks, welcome back. Hour two of the Eric Metaxus show. Albin, how many hours do we have in the show? It looks like we got two at this point. Oh, so this would be the last hour, the final hour. Wow, we're down to the home stretch here. Now, as we promised, in hour one, we had Al Moller.

I hope you didn't miss that because he's a big deal, and I'm thrilled to have reconnected with him. But in this hour, we are replaying the second half of my conversation with the great Ravi Zacharias, who passed away yesterday morning. morning. The interview, it was a long interview that I did with him and really a gift from God to me and I think to you because I had never really interviewed Ravi before. He kept, he was elusive or I was elusive. I'm not sure what happened. But finally about 10 months ago, we got him in the

studio, the beautiful TVN studio. And I had a long sit down with him. And I got to ask him about how he came to faith. It's just extraordinary. Most people who knew of his work or knew him reasonably well, didn't know the details of the story in the interview that I did with him. It's kind of, it's kind of amazing. It has to do with his grandmother's tombstone and what's on his tombstone. We were talking 10 months ago. He was alive. The concept of a tombstone was as strange as it is to us to think of our tombstones. And yet, now, of course, he's gone on to glory. That will happen to those of us who are lucky. Actually, no, not lucky. Blackie, blessed.

Yeah, we really do, we really do get that opportunity. God wants us all to be in his presence. Ravi is in his presence. But anyway, in a few minutes, we're going to play the second half of that. You can watch the video of it on our YouTube channel, the Eric Mataxis show. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel. We would love you to subscribe to the channel. And also, if you're not getting my weekly email, go to my website, which is my name,

Eric Mataxis.com. You know we have two websites, Albin, they all know. Ericmetaxis.com is my website. The metastastastop. Thetaxistocot.com is the radio website. So the two different websites, metaxistock.com is where you go to click on the Angel Tree banner. I didn't get a chance in the previous hour to mention what I wanted to about Angel Tree. This is, it's an honor for us to help the children of prisoners.

We do this every year at this time of the year. prison fellowship. Many of you don't know. If you read my book, Seven Men, the first book in my series, seven men, seven women,

and the new one, seven more men. The seventh man in that book was my friend, Chuck Holson, who went to be with Jesus over five years ago now. And Chuck

Holson, in case you don't know the story, He was very close to President Nixon. He was a genius at age 39. He had an office next to the president's office in the executive office building. He was, you know, counsel to the president of the United States. And as a result of some things, he ended up pleading guilty to a Watergate-related offense. And he was sent to prison.

So imagine you're at the top of everything and then you go to prison. It was incredibly humbling. Now, he had become a Christian before that. A lot of people think he became Christian in prison. No, no, no. He became Christian before that. And it's because of his faith that he decided to plead guilty, even though there was a plea bargain available to him. That's why he's in my book, Seven Men, because he was so heroic that he said, I would rather go to prison than lie, and then plead to something I didn't do. I can't do that. I don't feel right doing that. So he goes to prison. And when he gets out of prison, he's convinced that God is calling him to help prisoners and to help the families of prisoners. And he spends the rest of his life, 36 plus years. praying with people on death row, preaching every Easter. I mean, he was in prisons for the rest of his life, ministering to prisoners. It became the center of his whole life.

And he founded Prison Fellowship. And one of the greatest things Prison Fellowship ever did was create something called Angel Tree, where every Christmas they bring presents to the children of prisoners. Because mom and dad, if they're in prison, they can't send presents. You can only imagine how that would move a kid and move the mother or the father who's left home and to see that we got a present from dad or from mom who's behind bars. It's a brilliant idea, a brilliant way to show the love of Jesus to prisoners, to show the love of Jesus to kids and to the other family members that are perpetually sad and feeling abandoned and so on and so forth. So this is one of the greatest organizations I've ever known of. And I wanted to tell you about it in more detail because we typically would do something, you know, around Christmas time.

But last few years, we realized that Angel Tree has decided to do something in the summers. And they send the children of those who are incarcerated, the children of prisoners, to a one-week summer camp where for $200, we can send them to summer camp. And they can experience things and get out of the environment in which they were in. hear about the love of God. This is life-changing for a lot of these kids. And I can't think of anything more worthy, especially for $200, right? Well, as you know, this summer, some of those kids that we are sending to camp won't be able to go to camp because of this shutdown. So Prison Fellowship decided we want to reach out to these families nonetheless. What can we do? Well, we know that a lot of these families, the parent at home has lost a job because of this

shutdown. So what if we send them a care package? Well, that's exactly what we can do. It's what you can do. Every $200 goes toward a wonderful care package. So if the kid can't go to camp, the family gets a care package. And these care packages have a gift card for groceries, $150 worth. That means an awful lot to some of these families that have really, really been struggling right now. And you get to help. And the $200 also goes toward sports equipment, toward an age-appropriate Bible for the kid that's getting the gift. And some Bible study helps.

And a letter of encouragement to the kid that God loves them and loves their parent who's incarcerated. I mean, this is the kind of stuff that, you know, the government is never going to do this. Your tax dollars are never going to do this kind of thing. And if you care about the culture in which we live, you've got to care about the least of these, the prisoners and their families. And I just find this to be one of the most beautiful things that prison fellowship has ever done, to be so creative to come up with this. But they do need your help and my help. And so I'm asking you to go to metaxis talk.com. You'll see a banner. You can click on there. And you can give whatever you want to give. Now, we're asking $200, but if you can't give $200, you give anything you can. Albin and I have committed to send you. every single person who gives $100,

you get a free subscription to Metaxus Super. That's a, that's, you know, believe me, that's wonderful. It's podcasting without commercials. A lot of you would prefer that. And then if you give $200, we'll send you two subscriptions to Metaxa Super. You can give it to a friend

and introduce them to the show. And also, you get a signed copy of my book, Seven More Men. I've got it right here. This is what you get. Alvin's got a copy right there. And I've got a copy right here. Wait a minute.

Look at this. Holy cow. How did that get here? Oh, my goodness. There's two of them. And I will sign it with my little hand. It's like the Benham brothers. There's two of them.

So, so, but it's just a great opportunity. And I, you know, I want to say that I was reading online, Angel Tree sent us something saying that one out of every 28 kids in America has a parent behind bars. Folks, we need a lot of help and we're way behind in this. I want to encourage you. Kelly McCoy with Prison Fellowship spends, she knows about what happens with some of these at-risk kids and how they can get into trouble on the internet. Let's play the clip that Kelly recorded for us. Kids and teens who are home are almost completely dependent on their devices to complete schoolwork, potentially resulting in hours of unsupervised screen time.

I mean, folks, please, please go to metaxis talk.com. I'll give you the phone number 888-206-2793. Again, 888-206-2793. I've seen fire and I've seen rain. I've seen sunny days that I thought would... Our love is a lie. And so we need to stumble in it. Hey there, folks.

I'm here from Taxis Show. I get to continue my conversation with Ravi, Zacharias. Ravi, welcome back. Thank you. I want to talk to you about everything, so that's a problem. We have limited time. You have a book out called Jesus Among Secular Gods, the countercultural claims of Christ, and you have a new devotional out called The Logic of God.

Let me ask you, Ravi, there are so many people in the culture in which we live that don't believe. one can rationally make the case for the God of the Bible. You've spent 50 years doing just that. What do you say to somebody who says that these are things that we can't know or there are too many questions for me to make a decision? Well, I think it's partially true. There are too many questions. The fact of the matter is there are many unanswered questions for skepticism also.

There's even more unanswered questions in the antithistic or atheistic worldview. I mean, when a person like Richard Dawkins, raising all these questions about the horrible things of the God of the Old Testament, but then ends up saying, ultimately, I don't believe there's any such thing as evil. We're all dancing to our DNA. So the God, he takes down, he takes down on the notion of evil. But then when he comes to defend his own view, says the noses this thing is evil, we're all dancing to our DNA. So obviously he didn't want God to dance to his DNA. just wanted us to dance to our DNA.

I think Chesterton's comment is very appropriate here. He talks about the fact that for the Christian, joy is central and sorrow is peripheral. For the skeptic, he says, sorrow is central and joy is peripheral. And what he meant by that is, why is joy central for the Christian? Because the fundamental questions are answered. The peripheral questions are not answered, and so sorrow lingers. on the periphery there. But for the skeptic, the fundamental questions are unanswered.

That's why he thinks of pessimism and meaninglessness and emptiness being at the center of it, and the peripheral questions are answered, therefore the laughter and the frivolous nature of life and so on. I think that is true, because what are the fundamental questions of life? Why am I here? What does it mean to be human? How do I differentiate between good and evil? what really brings meaning. How do I find fulfillment in sexuality

with the legitimate boundaries that we enjoin? What happens to a human being when he or she dies? Those are the fundamental questions. Those are the ones that define who we are and how we should live. And so I think the rational arguments and the existentially relevant arguments are on the side of the the atheist,

not on the side of the anti-theist or the atheist. If I were not a believer in God, I would have no way to explain absolute moral reasoning, nor would I be able to explain the purpose and meaning of human life. Don't you think that the issue, for me at least, the issue is that in our culture, we give a pass to atheist points of view. In other words, we ought to mock them, ridicule them, we ought to call them out, we ought to hold them to account, hold their feet to the intellectual fire. That's never done in the culture unless someone bumps,

to you or a handful of figures. I mean, when I think of the Charlie Rose program, all of those years, I don't think I ever saw anyone like you on that program. In other words, everyone has these questions. These are not peripheral questions. Every human being has these questions. But you would get the idea from the culture that we don't have any good answers. Yeah, and I think they've actually concluded that there are no answers because they think

there are no good answers. They think there are no answers whatsoever. And yet, Eric, you know, my experience all over the globe, I mean, why in the name of reason did China become the fastest growing church in the world? They lived with the atheistic underpinnings, all that way. Why can you go to Moscow today and see an auditorium full of young people coming to listen to an open forum? Why is a per capita Iran one of the fastest growing churches right now in the world on a per capita basis? We, my colleague and I were in Cairo, and we saw so many come to Christ night after night in Egypt. They themselves are moving away to a natural, to an atheistic framework, because their own worldview has not given them the answers. I think the answers of Jesus is so profound, Eric, you know, why I am here, what my marriage means, how to raise my family, but it is all based on the fact that we have essential worth.

given to us by God himself, not some kind of extrinsic worth given to us by some temporary state or order of some leader. To have that essential value given to you of every human life and to have the wisdom and the legitimacy of options and whatever it is that God is calling us to in our existential reality, there are no answers in the naturalistic framework. And that's why the best-known philosophers will make me. Even Bertrand Russell would say, you know, I don't know why I think there is good and evil. I have no satisfactory explanation or others saying without an on-tick referent of an infinite being and a purposeful being who's created us, there is no basis for deciding between good and evil. So I think there are rational arguments.

There are existentially relevant arguments. and there are empirically verifiable propositions in the scriptures. The Bible is not just a book of some spiritual, ethereal stuff. This proposition of truth of geographical realities that can be tested against what the claims are. The Bible is the most unique book. When you've got a volume for 1,500 years, 66 books, 40 different authors, all pointing to the birth, life, death, and resurrection,

ultimately of Jesus Christ. I think it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful, cohesive narrative. I think, yeah, if people are honest with themselves, I think they have to conclude that if I must choose, and I must, this has to be the best choice by far. There's no doubt. In other words, you'll always have questions. But what amazes me, Ravi, is that we live in a culture that doesn't encourage us to choose or to think things through. It encourages us to distract ourselves away from making those kinds of decisions. You are so correct. And the way you phrased it in your opening lines, that's exactly actually what Anthony Flew ended up saying before he died. He said the worldview that from which he represented the atheistic worldview just didn't fit together with the facts as he sees them. And fascinatingly, he pointed to two authors to C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright's argument for this moral framework with which we think, an N.T. Wright's argument for the bodily resurrection of Jesus, he says, if those two realities, are true. It makes absolute sense. And he said the same thing. No other worldview does. If there is one, it has to be this Judeo-Christian worldview. I mean, it seems to me very clear. But as I say, I think we live in a culture where nobody is forced to think it through. In fact, they're encouraged not to think it through. But when I think of what folks like Richard Dawkins and so on have

gotten away with, it mystifies me that they're able to get away with such incredibly sloppy thinking. I mean, if you say that I don't have any real basis on which to determine what is good or evil or whether there are such things as good or evil, then I would simply say, why should I take anything you ever say seriously? Especially since one of the major arguments they have against God is evil. Yeah, he's so terrible that I don't want to believe in him. That's right. Where do you get this idea of terrible from?

So he's obviously got some intuitive certainty about what God ought to not be like, but some certainty about what life is like. It is, it's a very, very strange thing. And we are, of course, living in in strange times. We're living in, I would, you know, say that when you began in the 70s, there was a different mindset where I still think there was respect for the idea of truth and logic. And we seem to have moved into a place now where truth and logic are dismissed almost as patriarchal constructs, that they're part of an older way. And that if you're trying to convince me with logic, there's some deception there. I'm not going to buy into your phony logic. Well, and that's why, along with all of that, we have lost civility, we have lost hope, we have lost any manner of proper reasoning across political lines and theories. And if I were a young person growing up today watching the behavior of some in leadership and how they ever got into office to say what they do, and the irrationality of statements

that come out almost every day in the news, aided and abetted by mass propaganda as well. They seem to take the weirder stuff and put it up on the front page. Of course. And the reason is because logic and reasoning has gone. And once you've done away with logic and reasoning and moral reasoning particularly,

as Gertrude Himmelfarb, in her book, Rhodes to Modernity, points out that the United States did not have, like the French philosoph's reasoning alone, rationality. It was moral reasoning that was at the foundation of the, the U.S. and the U.K. So I think when we've lost that, then we've

lost behavioral norms also. I don't know why they don't connect the dots and see why our culture has become so violent and so vicious and so disrespectful at the same time as we have tossed out the notion of a moral order and of God himself.

That's the logical outworking of what we have actually done. I'm sorry to agree with you. It is a difficult and strange time in which We live, people often say, and I agree with them, that our only real hope is for revival, that we need spiritual revival. Otherwise, in a way, it becomes impossible for us to see what we need to see in order to do what we need to do. We'll be right back, folks, talking to Ravi, Zacharias, you can go to RZIM.org and find out more.

Christian bestselling author and speaker Richard E. Simmons does not shy away from the big questions of life. his latest book is called reflections on the existence of God, and it tackles the biggest question of all, does God exist? I've read this book, and I got to tell you, I'm a little biased, but you can imagine that I like it a lot, because Simmons offers insights for those grappling with life's biggest questions, where do we find meaning in life? Who determines what is evil? Can we be moral without God? Does God even exist? Former White House aide Wallace Henley says, I've taught a apologetics for many years and I've read every scholar mentioned in this book. Of all the books on apologetics, Simmons is the best I have ever read. This book is easy to read because it's divided

into a series of brief essays, perfect for a devotional or discussion with a friend. I highly recommend that you add a copy of reflections on the existence of God to your pandemic reading list. Simmons asked questions that speak directly to one of the most important things you possess your worldview. Folks, you know how important this is to me. Your worldview is going to impact the way you live your life for better or for worse. If you want to challenge yourself to spiritual and intellectual growth, and I hope you do, then be willing to ask yourself life's toughest questions. Dive in today by picking up a copy of reflections on the existence of God right now. Go to existence of Godbook.com. That's existence of Godbook.com. Oh, hello. It's the Eric McAxas. So I'm sitting here

with Ravi Zacharias. A lot of you are thinking. So Eric, shut up quick so Ravi can talk. it's such a joy to have you here. Now, you always have a new book out. The newest of your books is called The Logic of God. It's a devotional, 52 Christian essentials for the heart and mind. 52, I'm just guessing. Does that have something to do with a deck of cards? What's the significance of 52? Well, I think it reveals much more my way of thinking and the number of their 52. It is the fact, Eric, when I take a thought for the day and I do my devotions for the day, And then all of a sudden next day, you need to read another two, three chapters, and you keep moving on. The treasure of yesterday suddenly gets replaced by what you've just done again this morning. I like to meditate, cogitate on issues that have really made an impact on me. And I thought to myself, why take a daily different passage, take one or two central ideas with a particular passage, and let it form your life for the week, thinking on these, reflecting, and then allow your own natural, imagination to add to it and other thoughts.

So this was to be done once a week every Monday. I had actually called, titled the book, Thank God, it's Monday, but the publishers didn't like that. Publishers are always wrong, especially Zondervand, ladies and gentlemen. No, it's so funny. Publishers, people always say, why did you name your book? And you say, well, I don't, you know, there are publishers, they have ideas and they have sales forces, which are the most wrong of all. And they have these different ideas.

The logic of God, they seem to think that would sell better. We'll find out, won't we? Won't we, Ravi? Won't we? I think, because to me, when I look at that, yeah, I talk a lot about the pattern of God's thoughts, let this mind be in you, the Jesus, but the average person says it doesn't read it that way. Thank.

See, that's the point. The title becomes irrelevant if people aren't reading what people think is there. That's correct. could mean anything. Thank God it's Monday. That is tremendous on at least two points. And you know that, right? I mean, thank God it's Monday. If you are looking for hope in life, you say, thank God it's Friday. I want to, but thank God it's Monday. It's countercultural. But then also the idea that thank God it's Monday, I get to do another wonderful, hopeful devotional. I think the people at Zundervan are really, really kicking themselves right now, as they should, as they should. I have to say, that a devotional from you after all these years, why did you wait till now? People would have thought that you might have done this a long time ago. Yeah, I think the answer to that too was the publishers came to me and said, you know, you write so many things over a week, over a month, and so on, that would make beautiful,

reflective reading for somebody in a devotional pattern. So it was their idea. So was Zonovan's idea that then technically they get to title the book? I take it back, everything I said. Well, the book, The Logic of God. Let's talk about the meaning of what you just said, the logic of God, because your whole life has been summed up in a way by expressing the logic of faith and unpacking, I hate that verb, but unpacking the logos, trying to make it understandable to minds. And so is that part of what's running through this? Well, what's running through this is the questions that haunt us oftentimes where we run into some dead ends on answers, the logic of God is intended to unpack God's answers on different themes.

For example, if you have a deep regret of something that happened last week, you know, how do you get over that? You say, I ought not to have done that, I ought not to have said it, why did I make that mistake? Or even in a message, you say, boy, that one line I ought not to have said. There's one essay they're called Please Shut the Gate And it's taken from an essay by F.W. Borum, the English writer He said he used to go for a walk every morning

And he would see a farm where he would want it to walk through But there was just a sign on it, please shut the gate Because if you don't shut the gate, the critter is going to follow you And wreck your whole walk to say nothing about the farm And so he takes that thought, please shut the gate And he weaves beautiful the notion of memory and its profitability but also the pain that it can bring, and then ultimately he will take you to the verse.

Paul says, forgetting those things which are behind, I pressed towards the mark for the prize of the high calling, which is in Christ Jesus. Borum had that brilliant way of taking thoughts and then anchoring it at the end. So I did an essay, borrowing that title, how do you cover the past regrets for the present and the future? Then there's essays on problem of pain, suffering.

You know, how do you answer that, the question of meaning, the question of finding transitional moments in life. So it takes various questions that we have, brings it into a devotional for the day, and then there are discussion questions, and it can be done as a group, too. And those ideas were all Zondervans, actually. I did the writing, and so I was very happy that we could write it. I guess I'm pretty lucky to have them as a publisher suddenly. that's very interesting. In these conversations, the name C.S. Lewis keeps popping into my mind. He has to have had at least some influence on your life, because I guess most people would think of him as somehow the premier apologist of the 20th century.

To what extent that he influenced you? Lewis influenced me a lot, but not as much as one might imagine. Of all people, I think there were a couple of writers that really, really influenced me, that would be Malcolm Mugridge and G.K. Chesterton. Mugridge's ability to turn a phrase. You know, when he wrote on almost

anything, for example, his book, The End of Christendom, which is a slender volume on Pascal. Absolutely brilliant. He wrote one called Christ in the media on the danger of what the eye gate was all about and how it could manipulate news. So I would say Malcolm

Mugge was the number one person that probably because of the way he articulated. He was more a social theorist, I would say, or a moral reason. I want to cut you off, but I want to come back and talk more about Malcolm Mugge and about Chesterton with Ravi Zachariah. Stick around. Malcolm Mugge. I'm not, actually. I'm talking to Ravi Zuckery.

But Ravi, you said that Malcolm Mugge was a great influence on you. Literally last night, I popped in a DVD that I got either from eBay or something. Malcolm Mugge talking about the lives. I don't remember the title of it, but the lives of six people, I think Pascal, St. Augustine, and it ends with Bonhoeffer, Tolstoy, whatever. And I watched the one on Bonhofer. And it was made in 1974, and it was an extraordinary thing because the first time I had ever seen Bonhofer's fiancé on film. Probably the last time I'll see her on film, but she's interviewed.

This would have been 74, three years before her very early death from cancer. But I was marveling as I watched the documentary at what I ought to have known and probably did know. But his facility with language, and I thought, my goodness, I need to go back and read Muggeridge. Because apart from Chesterton, as you mentioned, there's really nobody quite like Malcolm Mugge. And many people don't know who he is, just like young people haven't heard of my hero and friend Chuck Colson, you think. Malcolm Muggeridge is worthy of reading. But what, I mean, I assume you met him. Yes, I did.

Yeah, only once, though, when I visited his home in Robertsbridge in England. I was actually speaking at some meetings, and I quoted him two or three times, and somebody came from the audience and said, do you know that Mr. Muggeridge lives just down the road? I said, no, I didn't. He said, would you like to meet him? I said, are you kidding me? He said, no, would you? I said, it would be a dream come true. day I had lunch with Malcolm and Kitty Mugridge, their home, a simple peasant-type lunch,

you know, with the crusty bread and cheese. Ah, what a, what an afternoon. And he took me through the wall of his pictures. He was well loved in India. He taught journalism in India for some time. He was the first one to call out Stalin for who he really was in his book, Winter in Moscow. He was a contributor to The Guardian, I think, and then became editor of the director of Punch magazine. I forgot. He was editor of Punch. I mean, he was such a legend, and I read a lot of

his books when I first came to faith, but I have, you know, halfway forgotten about him. So to hear you mention him, he was, you know, what do they say, Swedish. There was no one like him. Absolutely no one like him. Well, I remember one of his lines. He said when he would meet up with God, he was going to ask God to forgive him for being so fatally fluent. Because he, you know, he was. He said, He had manipulated, in his own words, you know, ideas as a journalist. He would make things seem what they were just by the use of language till he met Christ. And I think, you know the name of Fred Barnes, the journalist here. I asked Fred Barnes once, how do you come to know Jesus?

He said, oh, that's interesting. Two British journalists were visiting our home. They were staying with us. And after they left, my wife said to me, there's something about those guys. I want you to find out what makes them tick. So he said, I wrote to them. My wife wants to know what you make guys tick. And their reply came in the book and the mail.

Jesus rediscovered by Malcolm Mugrich. And you know, it was Mugridge that... Now, there's a lot of things in that book. There's a lot of thing in Mugge theology that I don't quite agree with. But he loved Jesus. And I think his farewell address at St. Giles in Edinburgh, when he quit the chaplaincy at the university there,

because of all that was happening, that talk of his, I think it's in vintage mugridge, the book, Vintage Mugridge, that farewell address is so powerful in which he talks about. He said, I have no desire to stand in your way of pleasure. But whatever else life is about, it's not going to be found on the plastic wings of Playboy on psychedelic fancies. And so I stepped down from this position because the decisions the university is making here. Wow.

He had found Christ. And he knew how devastating the culture had become in that day. And this was in the early 70s? Yes, sir. I think it was 74 or something like that when he quit the chaplaincy. Yeah. It'd become chaplain. I imagine that.

Chaplaincy in Sanja, in Denver, Scotland. And can we credit him essentially with the quote-unquote discovery of Mother Teresa? I would say so because what did his book call? Something beautiful for God. Something beautiful for God. Yeah. And I think he just said she turned his life around. And that was his own testimony to the 20th century pilgrim or something like that.

That's right. Yes. And therefore, I mean, what a different take by Mugridge vis-a-vis some of the other atheistic thinkers. Oh, yeah. Well, and he wrote, didn't he write a memoir called The Green Stick? Yes, sir. I guess I read these many, many years ago, but I feel renewed zeal to go back and look up Muggeridge. That was his volume one of.

of a two-volume series. The second was the Infernal Grove, and the Greens take a chronicle of wasted years. That's it. I mean, that book was, I mean, loaded with phrases. So to me, the precision of articulation is what enamored me with the way Mugridge wrote. I said, he opens up vistas that nobody else does, and for the gospel's sake, that's what I wanted to do. Wow. We have about a minute left to talk about Chesterton before we go. Again, there is nobody like G.K. Chesterton, obviously, he influenced C.S. Lewis and so many others. And after you leave, I'm talking to a Chesterton expert, oddly enough, to talk about Chesterton. But for people who don't know, Chesterton, what was it about him that spoke to you? Did you read Orthodoxy first? Yeah, I think that's one of the best books ever written, especially that chapter, the ethics of Elfland. My favorite chapter, probably, of any chapters in the world.

It's such a slender book, Eric. But, yeah, you've picked up the right. His everlasting man is tougher, but Lewis says that it was the everlasting man that put the last link in his own spiritual journey for Cus Lewis. So he credited that book with something very I just think once again, Mugridge being an analyst of society in that day, those pungent one-liners, even his poetry. I mean, I went to visit his home and sat in his chair for some time. I think between Mugridge and Chesterton is a toss-up,

who is the greatest English journalist of the 20th. his injury. Well, Chesterton, I mean, you talk about a way with language. It's stunning. I mean, he thinks in aphorisms. But the first 50 pages of The Everlasting Man are really tough. I mean, I remember thinking, where am I? And then finally it gets a little clearer, but so much of his stuff is just genius. Ravi, I'm sorry we're out of time or you're out of time, but we're just so happy finally to get you here in the studio. I want to tell folks again about your books. Jesus among secular gods, the countercultural claims of Christ, came out last year. And then the brand new book, The Logic of God, 52 Christian Essentials for the Heart and Mind,

which seems not like your average devotional. And then the website, r zim.org. Ravi, thank you so much. Thanks, Eric. And by the way, loved your books. I just carry them. They're heavy, but I still carry them. If you're listening, I'm blushing.

Hey there, folks. Welcome back. Hey, listen, before we go for the day, Albin, did you know that we are going to the GOP convention? It's in Charlotte? Like, is it in Charlotte? I think it's in Charlotte. I just heard about it. Yeah, there's going to be some pretty stellar people there. You said that he booked us in some kind of luxury, luxury hotel. You and I can get his and her massages or something. Oh, I love it. As long as we're not sharing a twin bed, I'm fine with whatever. Right, right, or a room or anything. No, listen, seriously, though, we're we're scheduled to go to. the GOP convention and I thought this is going to be nuts. It's going to be fun and I can't wait.

Now, I should mention that I'm trying to get Tim Ragland to go. He is the illustrator of the Uncle Mugsy books, of the Donald Drain's the Swamp Book, of the Donald... What's the sequel? Donald builds a wall. I'm sorry, I'm thinking of the new one. The new one is going to come out at the end of. of August. Donald builds the wall is our last one, but the new one is coming out,

it's Donald and the fake news. Oh, that's great. Just in time. I think it's the best of all three. So we're going to be signing books and stuff there. I think people can probably already pre-order it, but I am just so excited. It's kind of nuts that we're going to be there and that we've got the third book out. You know, every year I put out a goofy comedy book in the Donald and the Caveman series. Some people think, like, what's happened, Eric? You used to write Bonhofer.

Now he writes these goofy partisan kids books. And it's like, well, no, it doesn't really take as long to write a Donald, the Caveman book as it does to write Bonhoffer or Luther. It's just something that I thought would be fun. And Tim Raglan is so much fun to work with that he and I have kind of teamed up. There is a lighter side of you, Eric Matta. taxes and that's well yeah i mean i i i do you know i've got all kinds of genres uh in which i work i mean the seven men books are the same way i mean seven men seven women seven more men seven more women

coming out next year we're going to probably continue that series as as well and those books also are different from you know my big books which good grief uh they are they're very very hard to to write uh but i i just feel that um hey i've got a lot to say what are you going to do they've got a lot different sides to me what are you going to do you know i yeah i you know what alban we forgot to mention if people give to angel tree oh yes we forgot to mention this uh i want to mention first of all we need your help desperately there are lots of folks who can give a thousand dollars who can give five thousand dollars we need your help this is uh it's a tough time for charities and angel tree normally we raise money for them fairly easily because i i just

love chuck colson so much and i believe in it so much but we're we're having a tough time right now and I wanted to encourage you, if you're able to give, go to metaxistocococot.com. Helping the kids of prisoners, it doesn't get purer than that. It's just an amazing thing to reach out to the blameless kids of prisoners. These kids are in harm's way, folks. We know that the odds of them growing up in a tough environment and following in the footsteps of their incarcerated parent, unfortunately, the odds are not good. but we can do something about it and we must do something about it. So go to our website metaxis talk.com and you'll see the banner for Prison Fellowship and AngelTree.

And you can give something. Whatever you give, folks, we are grateful to you. And it does amazing things. You can read about it there. I'm sending out another newsletter where it details what we want to give to the- phone number. Let me give the phone number. 888-206-2793, 888206, 2793. 888206, 2793.

888-206, 279. Never mind. 3. 888-206, 2793. 888, 206, 2793. 888-206-2793, 888-28-206, 279-3. 888, 206, 2793. You can dial it right now. We don't care what you give, folks. Please just participate. Thank you. God bless you. We'll talk to you tomorrow.