The Eric Metaxas Show - Rick Boyer

Episode Date: June 11, 2022

Rick Boyer, a constitutional lawyer, has written an important new book, "God, Caesar and Idols," where he emphasizes the importance of Christians bringing their faith into the public sphere. 

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m.investments.com. The Texas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. If you listen to the show, you know that one of the things that has become kind of an obsession with me is the relationship. between the church and the state and the role of the church. I don't mean the institutional organization called the church.

I mean the church, the people of God. The role that we have and how that relates to politics and so on and so forth. And I've written a book about it, which is coming out in September, called Letter to the American Church. And I was thrilled not long ago to see a book titled God, Caesar, and idols the church and the struggle for America's soul. The author is Rick Boyer. It says in the back of the book that once one nation under God, America today is desperately sick, and the church seems to have no answers. So this is, you've heard me talk about this, right? How can a nation so churched be so

untouched by what we call the gospel? Why has the glory departed leaving a nation racked by political hatred, drug addiction, shattered families, on and on and on. These are my questions. This is what we talk about a lot on this program. So I'm thrilled to have the author of God, Caesar, and idols. As my guest, Rick Boyer, welcome to the program. Thank you, Eric. I can't say enough how much respect I have for you and your organization and your commitment

to a biblical worldview and the people of God. It is a tremendous service to the church and to the Lord Jesus Christ. You're very kind. I think, you know, many people listen to this program, of course, who are not committed Christians, who are all over the map ideologically. And I think I want to help them understand even why I'm a Christian and why I know that the founders understood there is no way for America to succeed without people of deep faith. And it kind of astonishes me. as it clearly does you from the way you've written the book, that we have drifted away from this. So before we get into the book itself, you're a constitutional lawyer living in Lynchburg, Virginia. You're a liberty grad. You said your dad is a liberty grad. What led you a lawyer to write a book called God, Caesar, and idols, the church and the struggle for America's soul? Well, my background really is in conservative activist politics. That's what really floats my boat, if you will, and I've done that since I was a teenager. And after the, and I guess I went to law school, specifically with the idea of learning the law, learning how to apply it to politics. And of course, at Liberty University School of Law, you get a terrific education in the biblical foundations of American law. But after the 2017 elections here in Campbell County, just outside.

of Lynchburg, Virginia, where I live, watching elections for school board here in Campbell County, where some candidates were talking about, hey, we need to take a stand against the transgender craziness ideology in our schools, and others were saying, no, that's not a big issue. Let's just find more tax money to support more programs. And I watched my community right here in the shadow of Liberty University. I watched my community what felt like changed gods right in front of my eyes. the candidates touting traditional biblical values lost to the candidates just promising more taxpayer money. It felt like the devil's promise to Jesus that all these things I'll give you if you bow down and worship me. And just struggling and soul-searching in the aftermath of that election in a very conservative county

and trying to understand why so many people who were professing Christians couldn't deal with the blowback on these issues where Scripture just speaks so clearly. is struggling and praying and trying to find answers to why the gospel does not seem to be changing the lives, even if it's the people who profess it and who claim to believe it. And this book really just grew out of and almost wrote itself. It grew out of the frustration and trying to find answers to why we don't seem to have a biblical worldview that's capable of most religions, most worldviews. religion, but most worldviews, Marxism, humanism, socialism, they give their adherence not just something for the afterlife, and some of them don't even talk about the afterlife, but they all

give their adherence marching orders in this life. Social justice gives its adherence marching orders in this life. Modern evangelicalism does not give us marching orders in this life. We tell people how to get to know Jesus and how to go see Jesus, but in between how to be an ambassador for Jesus how to apply biblical principles to current events. I mean, this is the issue, right? And it's kind of funny because it is part of what I write about in my book because I thought this has become epidemic. This is an amazing thing where we're so focused on what we call evangelism, which is

ridiculous. What is the point of evangelism except to lead somebody to the starting line? It's not the finish line. You don't get translated to glory when you accept Jesus. You begin to live the law. life that you're called to live while you're on this planet, which is to say, now you have work to do. And as soon as you talk about that with many evangelicals, they kind of get this funny look on the physical thing. I don't understand. It's just about this spiritual thing. I'm saved.

And now I, and you think, no, no, no, now comes discipleship and sanctification and living out your faith in the real world, being salt and light in this world, affecting the world around you, blessing people. And there are plenty of people, and you know this, and it's why you wrote the book, God, Caesar, and idols. But we've lost that. We have a lot of Christians

who don't understand that if you do not live out your faith, maybe you have no faith. Because if you have real faith, you can't help but live it out. You can't help but bring it everywhere you go. And that's to me, that's why when I saw that you'd written this book,

I thought, okay, so I'm not the only one who feels like we need to talk about this. I mean, obviously, there are others besides you and me, but it was very heartening to see that you'd written this book, God, Caesar, and idols. So what are some of the things we talk about, you talk about in the book? Well, Nancy Pearson, I have to give a lot of credit. She wrote a book called Total Truth. That was one of the inspirations for this book as well. I asked her for permission to basically take Chapter 12 and be a book review of her book. But she talks a lot. about the cultural mandate. And I talk about what I would call the half-great commission. We have a lot of

churches that say, oh, we're great-commission churches. Let's go tell people how to come to know Jesus, and then someday how to go to see Jesus. But the other half of the Great Commission is teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And Piercy talks a lot about the cultural mandate, or what she calls the First Great Commission, where God tells Adam and Eve in the garden to dress the garden, to keep the garden, to be fruitful, to multiply, to subdue the earth. And Piercy says that is our first great commission as as humankind before the fall was to build things, to build societies, to build cultures, to build governments and systems of justice, businesses, and systems of commerce and enterprise.

That was the original great commission to humanity before the fall and before people had to be redeemed. And I think that's the other half of what Jesus says when he says to teach them to observe all things whatsoever I've commanded them. And we're not teaching that part. We are not giving Christians the biblical worldview to be able to address the other false ideologies of Marxism or socialism. Nancy Piercy, I have had the privilege of knowing her for 25 years. She's a hero, and she's written many great books. The one you're talking about right now, total truth. I reference that mentally often because I think who else has put it this way.

I mean, she's saying something that Christians have known for 2,000 years, but we have forgotten that our faith is not a spiritual faith, it's not a religious faith, it's a total faith. Truth is truth, and it touches everything. And the person that Nancy and I worked for, Chuck Colson, I don't think there was a speech he gave that he would not quote Abraham Kuiper saying, the famous quote, there's not one square inch in all creation over which Jesus Christ, who is sovereign, does not say mine. We Christians are supposed to bring Jesus into every part of creation.

And this lie, it's bad theology, Rick, let's face it. It's terrible. It's satanic theology that says, we're just supposed to stay in our little religious corner or stay in our little religious lane. And you think, no, there's no such thing. Truth is truth. And if you don't bring truth into the culture, if you don't bring your faith into the culture and into politics,

you are not serving the God you claim to, to worship. We're talking to the author of a brand new book, God, Caesar, and Idols. The Church and the Struggle for America's Soul, Rick Boyer, will be right back. Tell me, Eric, why is Relief Factor so successful at lowering or eliminating pain? I'm often asked that question. The owners of Relief Factor tell me they believe our bodies were designed to heal. That's right, designed to heal, and I agree with them. So the doctors who formulated Relief Factor for them selected the four best ingredients, yes, 100% drug-free ingredients, each helps your body deal with inflammation. Each of the four ingredients deals with inflammation

from a different metabolic pathway. And that right there, approaching from four different angles, may be why so many people find such wonderful relief. So if you've got back pain, shoulder, neck, hip, knee, or foot pain from exercise or just getting older, you should order the three-week quick start discounted to only 1995 to see if it will work for you. It works for me. It has for about 70% of the half a million people who've tried it and have ordered more. Go to Relieffactor.com or call 800 for relief to find out about this offer. Feel the difference. Hey, folks, if you could make money off of abortion or pornography, would you do it? I hope the answer is no. But I want to tell you, Robert Netsley, the founder of Inspire Insight.com,

he was the president of his local pro-life pregnancy center when he discovered that he owned investments in three companies manufacturing abortion drugs. Well, God helped him to see that he was making money from abortion, pornography, LGBT activism, and the list goes on. And that's why he created Inspireinsight.com. Inspireinsight.com gives you instant access to biblical values data on over 23,000 stocks, mutual funds, and ETFs, so you can invest to the glory of God. You need to go to Inspire Insight.com today and screen your 401Ks, IRAs, and other investment accounts. I did, and I was shocked.

Now I'm able to clean out the junk and invest in companies actually doing good things. Inspire Insight.com today and register for free. That's Inspireinsight.com. Go there. This is Robinson. Jesus loves you more when you... Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to the author of God, Caesar, and idols, Rick Boyer. So, Rick, let's keep going. What is it that churches are missing? A book came out very recently. It really was like a nightmare to look at it. It's by Andy Stanley, a very prominent. pastor and talk about getting it wrong. Talk about writing something that's potentially going to

mislead millions. He talks, he basically makes the opposite case that you make in this book and or that Nancy makes or that I make or, and I just think, wow, this is scary when a leading pastor is getting something this basic wrong because we're on the lip of catastrophe in this country if we don't bring our faith to bear. So what other issues do you go into, really? related to this. Well, talking about truth, we devote an entire chapter to the concept of absolute truth. And if you look at the George Barna surveys, the number, the percentage of American Christians who don't believe in absolute truth, we believe that all roads lead to God and anyone who

believes in some kind of a God sincerely at some point is going to be okay on the other side of the grave, just this sort of, the idea that anything goes, that anything is okay, your truth is your truth and mine, mine can be mine. The Bible is absolutely intolerant of that idea. I mean, the Bible is insistent. I mean, Paul talks about if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is vain, your faith is in vain, you are yet in your sins. If God is wrong on even one little point, then how do we trust him on anything? And our eternal security is a giant game of Russian roulette, as I say in the book. If Jesus is wrong when he says it's one man for one woman for one lifetime, because in the beginning, God created it this way. And the world sees us in the church

as schizophrenic. When we tell them we believe in this God somewhere, and this Jesus somewhere, up in heaven somewhere, who's going to take us to this great place called heaven when we die, but we don't take this Jesus seriously when he's here on this earth telling us in very plain terms that what God has joined together, let not man put asunder. The world sees the church as schizophrenic. we don't practice the things that we say we believe. Is God authoritative? Is the Word of God authoritative? And much of the church and many of the pulpits do not take the Word of God as authoritative.

We'll pick the New Testament and discard the Old Testament, or we'll pick Jesus and Paul, and we'll discard James or whatever. But we don't take the entire Word of God as authoritative. So we devote a chapter to that. We devote a chapter to talking about this false statement. dichotomy, and I fault a lot of many of our modern evangelical leaders, even some of the good guys, if you will, like John MacArthur, who still subscribes to this false dichotomy of the secular versus the sacred. And to his credit, and God bless him, when Caesar came in and said, we're going to shut

down your church and you can't meet, Dr. MacArthur said, no, you're not. We're going to meet. We must obey God rather than men. But he had subscribed for so many years to this idea that unless the state infringes on my religious world, I have no call to challenge the state. And it's a false gospel or it's in competition with the gospel. And it's a bad reading of Romans 13, really. I know you have a chapter on Romans 13. And for people who aren't familiar at all with Romans 13, talk about that a little bit, what it says and how people are getting it wrong. That's chapter 7 out of 12 chapters, and it's in the centerpiece of the book for a very important reason. Romans 13 1 through 7, I think, is probably the most misinterpreted passage of scripture.

in modern evangelicalism. They take Romans 13 1 through 7, and then they take the words of Jesus, where he says, render to Caesar, what is Caesar's, and render to God, what is gods, and they mistranslate that as a command of blind obedience

to whatever the next higher person above you in civil government happens to say. And of course, say what Romans 13 says, the famous line, just so people are tracking, because not everybody's going to get that. Sure. Sure. Romans 13 is let every man be subject to the higher powers, for there's no power but of God,

and the powers that be ordained of God, and he that resist shall, resist, shall obtain to himself damnation. Rulers are here for the rewarding of good works, the punishment of evil works, and so forth. So Paul is making this point. He's writing a letter to the church in Rome, making a basic point in the first century, that the state exists ultimately for good to preserve order, and on and on and on. And it's an important point, and Luther makes a big thing of it 15 centuries later.

But there are people who take this, as you say, and they act as though that's the whole scripture, as though that's the beginning and the end of the discussion on do we resist tyrants. And worse, yet they misinterpret it. If you look at Paul, Paul is a very clear, logical thinker. And Paul says, because government is ordained of God, you have to follow his logic here. He says the government is ordained of God, and therefore if it's ordained of God, if it exercises powers that are delegated from God, it necessarily cannot be omnipotent.

The state has lesser power than God. God is up top, and combined with what Jesus said, render to Caesar what is Caesar's, but render to God's, you cannot render to Caesar what is God's. And too much of the modern evangelical interpretation would equate Caesar with God, Paul is saying very clearly, Caesar's authority is less than God. It is subject to God. It is delegated from God, and his job is to reward the good and to punish the evil. And he says, for this cause, we are subject. For this cause, we pay our taxes, because Caesar is exercising delegated authority to reward good and punish the evil. And Eric, if the cause goes away, the effect goes away. If Caesar ceases to reward the good, ceases to punish the evil, if Caesar claims for himself the power that belongs to God, which Jesus tells us we can only give to God, then our our cause for obedience just disappeared. It's an if-then syllogism. Well, what's kind of funny to me,

and this is kind of the problem with a lot of modern evangelical Christians, right? Is they are somehow... What's the word I'm looking for? In other words, common sense would agree with what you just said. It makes perfect sense. It's logical.

But there are people that are almost... They take a literalistic reading of the scripture, and it's almost like they don't, they're not willing to let their common sense help them understand what it says. They take it in a way, well, I mean, you've already said it, but they simply take it too far, they misinterpret it, and then you get stuck with these bad ideas, and it's where we are now, where you have people, I mean, we saw this during the pandemic, people that don't seem to really understand, these basic ideas. And if you don't understand these basic ideas, that's the end of self-government. That's the end of America. That's the end of liberty. At the heart of our way of governing ourselves in America is these ideas from the scripture. And so when Christians themselves misunderstand that, it goes away. You will get tyranny. You will get deep state bureaucracy. You'll be governed

from above. You won't govern yourself anymore. And this link is so crucial. So that's why I was so thrilled to see that you'd written a book about it. Well, I would say, Eric, I would say they don't take it far enough. I would say they take the child's version, the abridged version, the easy reading of Scripture. If you read carefully what Paul's saying, it's anything but an absolute

command of submission no matter what. And if you read what Jesus is saying, when Caesar claimed to be God, Caesar's title was Pontifex Maximus, the bridge, the bridge builder. Caesar was God, he was the bridge to God, Caesar was the God on earth. What got the Christians killed was not telling people that Jesus is the only way to heaven because Caesar didn't care about

the next life. Caesar cared about this life. The Christians died when they would not confess Caesar is Lord in this life. And so when you look at Jesus' words in those contexts, when he says, do not render to Caesar what only belongs to God, he is saying, he is dethroning Caesar. That is sedition. That is treason against the Roman government for Jesus to say that, because Caesar claimed to be God. And when Jesus said he is not God and you cannot render to him what only belongs to God, that is rebellious, that is sedition, that is treason against the God on earth that Caesar fancied himself to be. It's the opposite of this command of blanket obedience. It is, in fact, a statement of rebellion against the state as God. And Eric, it's always been a war all through scripture of God

against Caesar and against false gods. If you go back to Moses, where the Egyptians worshiped the Nile and they worshiped frogs and they worship the God of fertility, so God turns the Nile and to blow. So God turns the Nile into blood and torments them with frogs and kills the firstborn of every man and beast in the land of Egypt. It is a war of the God of the Jehovah God against the gods of the Egyptians. Jesus' statement and Paul's statement is a declaration of war by Jehovah God against the humanist God, the human god, Caesar. It's the opposite. I would say that don't take it. The average preacher doesn't take it far enough.

He doesn't examine it carefully enough. This is a declaration of war against the all-powerful state. a pulling of the state back down into its proper position as a servant of God and minister of God to thee for good. That is the purpose of the state. And for this cause, Christians are to submit. If the cause goes away, the state ceases to fulfill those rules, that role and arrogates to itself the role of God, then our cause for obedience disappears. That's one of the things that astonishes me as you read scripture, the things that Jesus said, if anybody wasn't sure who this guy is, and you listen to him say these things, they are fathomlessly profound, they are mind-blowingly

profound, and you just think it's not what humans come up with. It's not human cleverness. I mean, when he says, rendered a disease, things the God, the things are God. It's like a mic-drop, mind-blowing statement that's been reverberating for 20 centuries to figure out what he meant. And we're going to a break talking to Rick Boyer, B-O-Y-E-R. The book is God, Caesar, and idols. Nobody's going to hurry me. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Biden administration has caused a financial crisis, and they have no clue how to fix it.

Oil prices have skyrocketed. oil prices go up, the cost of transportation and shipping spikes, leading the prices of goods to rise. And when we're already seeing record inflation, that's the last thing we need. Our economy is in trouble and you need to take steps to protect yourself. If all your money is tied up in stocks, bonds, and traditional markets, you are vulnerable. Gold is one of the best ways to protect your retirement. No matter what happens, you own your gold. It is real, it is physical, it's always been valuable since the dawn of time. Legacy Precious Metals is the company I trust for investing in gold.

They can help you roll your retirement account into a gold-backed IRA where you still own the physical gold. They can also ship gold and precious metals safely and securely to your house. Call Legacy at 866-528-1903 or visit them online at LegacyPMinvestments.com. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Rick Boyer, B-O-Y-E-R. The book is God, Caesar, and idols. there is very little more important than the subject of this book. The subtext is the Church and the Struggle for America's Soul.

So we're talking, Rick, about this misunderstanding of scripture, misunderstanding of the founder's view of liberty that has wormed its way into the American church so that you have many pastors who are convinced that the biblical thing to do is to stay out of politics, to don't get involved in anything. And you think, where did you get this horrible idea? It's not just, you know, we say, well, it's bad theology.

Bad theology is out of the pit of hell. That's where bad theology comes from. And we need to be vigilant against it because it will destroy everything. It will destroy America and it will destroy the church and it will destroy lives and souls. So it couldn't be more important. And I mentioned to you earlier that we have incredibly prominent pastors like Andy Stanley writing entire books promulgating this false view.

So I want to say to people, folks, think about getting a copy of God, Caesar, and idols. This is basic stuff. If we don't understand this, we lose everything. And in fact, we are losing everything right now. So what else do you say in the book, Rick? Let me give you just one example of how this improper misinterpretation of Romans 13 affects us. Back in, it was 2013 or 2014, just before the Supreme Court's Obergefell decision that purported to mandate gay marriage all across the country, you had a rogue federal judge in Alabama who ordered Alabama judges to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Well, Chief Justice Roy Moore at the time was Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, and he said no.

He said the Alabama Constitution defines marriage as one man and one woman. This is God's standard. This is the Alabama Constitution standard. There's nothing in the federal constitution that would overturn this, and this rogue federal judge has no authority. You must issue marriage licenses only to heterosexual couples. Well, Russell Moore, no relation, who at the time was the head of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission for the Southern Baptist Convention. He wrote a terrible piece demanding that if Christian leaders, Christian politicians, Christian judges, cannot enforce whatever they're told to enforce because of their convictions that they must resign and protest and just protest quietly as a citizen. citizen. Well, he forgot to tell Daniel this. I mean, when King Darius said, you cannot pray to any God

or man, but be for 30 days, Daniel didn't resign his position as the chief man in the kingdom, the number one of the three presidents underneath of Darius, nor did he retiret to his closet or his church and keep his faith to himself six days a week. He opened his window toward Jerusalem the same place he always did where he knew the people who were trying to trap him would see him do it. This was civil disobedience. It was protest. It was, again, a declaration that God is God and Caesar is number two. You look at Daniel's three friends. Everybody else is bowing on the plain of Dura to the golden statue. Daniels three friends didn't resign their positions. They didn't have some peaceful protest in their home or their church. They stood there on the plain of Dura in front of the king, in front of all the king's leaders in front of the whole nation, civilly disobeying and saying, we will not bow. And look at what has. happens. After Nebuchadnezzarcy is the fourth man in the fire, he says anyone who speaks a word against the god of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, we're going to tear his house down because there's no other God who can deliver like this. King Darius, when Daniel was delivered from the lions, he said

we know man in the kingdom is to speak a word against the God of Daniel, because no other God delivers the way that Daniel's God does. If they had resigned their positions and protested quietly, the kings of those nations would have never made the connection. There never would have been the fiery furnace. There never would have been the fiery furnace. There never would have been the the Lions then if they followed Russell Moore's advice? I guess I wonder, you know, Russell Moore is someone, there are a lot of folks like this. I don't want to demonize them, but I want to be really clear. They're wrong and they're misleading millions. And it's not a little thing. Folks, this is a very, very big thing. Russell Moore wrote a piece in Christianity today about,

I don't know, six or eight weeks ago. I was so astonished when I read it that I wrote a rebuttal. It was published at the stream. But it's a kind of, there are a group of people. He is among them. I mentioned Andy Stanley, I guess David French. There's certain people that they are all misreading this together and they're prominent voices and they're making these cases out there. And there are people happy to grab onto this and say, oh, okay, I guess I have to do whatever the government tells me. I have to get a dangerous, risky, crazy vaccine just because you know, Christians just do what they're told and we're meek and we're Ned Flanders. And you think, this is, this is not just wrong.

It's dangerous. You are, you're misleading people in applying the scripture to their lives. And I think the reason you wrote your book, God, Caesar, and idols is, you see, this has risen over time. We've gotten to a place where we have fewer Roy Moors and more Russell Moors speaking about this. and it's very troubling. And I say this, Rick, because I think there are many people listening right now. Folks, you need to get this right. This is not a small thing.

The church is hanging in the balance right now. God is trying to speak his truth on these issues. And if the church doesn't get it right, America goes down because America exists by the grace of God. The Lord has allowed us to exist because the church has been vocal. The church has been strong. And, I mean, talk about the balance some more between church and state, because this is something that's so misunderstood. We talked about it in the context of Romans 13 and the idea that all power is from God, that God is the only one who has all power. Everyone else's power is subordinate to God, delegated from God, subject to God.

Too many of our modern theologians in evangelical world, which is where I come from, not a theologian, but evangelical. But too many of our evangelical theologians have bought this false dichotomy between Sunday Christianity and Monday through Saturday Christianity. Forgive me. We're going to go to a break. I will let Rick Boyer complete that thought. And we come back. The book, folks, get a copy. God, Caesar, and idols. Hey there, folks. Eric Metax is here. As you know, our friend, and he's a real friend, Mike Lindell, has a passion to help everyone get the best sleep of their life. But he didn't stop by simply creating the best pillow. Now Mike has done it again by introducing his My Slippers. My Slippers, they're unbelievable. I know all about them. But I got to tell you, for a limited time, you will save $90 on each pair of My Slippers. They're expensive. You can save $90. This blowout sale of the year won't last order now. He's taken over two years to develop them. The My Slippers are designed to wear indoors and out all day long made with My Pillow Foam and Impact gel to help prevent fatigue made with quality leather swayed. Call 1-800-9. 378 3057. Use the promo code Eric or go to MyPillow.com, click on the radio listeners square and use promo code Eric. The offer will not last long. So order now with promo code Eric at Mypillow.com or call 800. 978-3057. 8-800-378 3057.

Folks, welcome back talking to Rick Boyer, B-O-Y-E-R, the book. It's an important book, God, Caesar, and idols, the church and the struggle for America's souls. So you were just saying, Rick, about the separation of church and state and that balance, and please continue your thoughts. We have the balance exactly backwards, Eric. We think we need to keep the church out of it so the state can do its properly God-ordained role. It's the opposite. And if you look at Scripture, and I think people get confused because when Jesus came,

Jesus really was not involved politically. I mean, that wasn't his mission. His mission was to die for souls. I mean, the Son of Man has come for one specific purpose to seek and to save that, which was lost. That was his only mission. His mission was not to, and yet we talked about it where he says, render to Caesar what's Caesar into God, what's gods, and that was a very seditious political statement. But if you look at so many of the other leaders throughout Scripture, all the way up to and including John the Baptist,

John the Baptist did not lose his head for saying, behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. John the Baptist lost his head for telling the heathen king. And you remember, we're not talking about, this is the land of Israel, but it's a Roman government that appoints a wicked heathen king, from Edom, King Herod, as the king over God's people. So the Edomites had no laws that said you couldn't have your brother's wife. The Romans certainly had no law that said you can't have your brother's wife. So when John the Baptist goes to the king and says, it is not lawful to have your brother's wife, he is telling the king, you, a heathen king representing a heathen government over God's accountable to the law of Almighty God, and it is not lawful for you to do this.

That's what cost him his head. When Elijah, looking back at the Old Testament, Elijah could have just practiced his own religion, but Elijah was unwilling to do it. Elijah ordered King Ahab. He said, there will be no rain or due until I say otherwise, and I want you to bring all Israel to Mount Carmel, and we're going to have a clash of gods on the top of the mountain. And the God who delivers by fire, let him be God. So he orders the king. He says, you come up here, you call all Israel, we're going to have this contest. And then after the contest is over, Elijah goes down to the Brook Kidron and he kills all the prophets of bail. There is a, the proper role. The, the proper role of the church is the conscience of the state. The proper role of the church is to be the ambassador

of Jesus Christ to a wicked world that doesn't want to hear from him. And when we fail in that role, when we fail in half of the Great Commission, you cannot call yourself a Great Commission Church if you tell people only how to go to heaven when you die. If you do not. I knew I knew I would enjoy talking to you because, I mean, I'm not kidding. The book that I have coming out in the fall, Letter to the American Church, it touches on all this stuff. You, however, you go deeper and you touch on a lot of stuff that I don't touch on in my book. So I'm just thrilled that you have brought your mind to bear on this issue. You've mentioned so many things just now. Bonhofer said the church is the conscience of the state. And people don't understand what that

means. It means just what you said, that we have an obligation. It's a huge obligation. So our job is not just to be meek and evangelistic when we get an opportunity. Our job is to speak the truth of God for the sake of those who don't know it, who need to hear it. And so when you think about somebody like John the Baptist, I mean, imagine if John the Baptist had had the view of some evangelicals today like Andy Stanley or he would have said, well, you know what, I don't, I don't want to push away, you know, Herod or anything like that, because he might get saved. I don't want to say anything incendiary. That's not a gospel issue. I'm going to keep my mouth shut on that issue. And you think, no, in the scripture, he says this thing. He's willing to die for it.

He's not afraid of death because he knows God has defeated death or will defeat death on the cross. He knows who God is, and he knows that he is obliged to speak the truth and let God worry about the details. And so he does it. But today, many people who don't understand what you just said and what I've been trying to communicate, they would say, well, that's incendiary language. He should have kept that to himself. Just keep that in the church building on Sunday morning. And you say, well, wait a second. This is scripture.

These are the heroes in scripture said these things. Jesus actually said many things. And you think if it was only about evangelism, if it was only about staying in your narrow little religious, salvific lane, you would never say those things. And you say, well, Jesus said them. So we have made a tremendous error in allowing ourselves to buy this idea. You mentioned earlier too the idea that, you know, Christianity is just a Sunday morning thing.

It happens in that building. You can have that kind of faith in China. But when you come out of that building, you bow to the secular authority of the state. There are many Christians in America today buying into that satanic view, that two-tiered version of things. and as you know, it's not just, you know, wrong. It's wicked. It is. I mean, if, and I talk a lot about this, whether we take the Word of God as authoritative. I mean, Paul says time and time again, he says the Word of God is profitable for reproof, for correction, for doctrine, for instruction and righteousness, that the man of God may be

perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good words, all good words, that, everything that's necessary for life and godliness is contained in that book. For godliness, yes, but also for life. And we're not, and Dorothy Sayers said, how can people be impressed by a religion that doesn't even speak to nine-tenths of their life? And modern evangelical Christianity risks not speaking to nine-tenths of their life. The scripture talks about marriage, that talks about training children,

that talks about government. If I have a life verse, it's from Proverbs where Solomon says, deliver those who are staggering away to death, and those who are being led to slaughter, hold them back. And if you say we did not know this, does not he consider it who weighs the hearts? And will he not render to every man according to his works? And we're losing, we've lost 70 million babies now to the abortion culture,

the false God. I mean, it's the God of convenience, and we've sacrificed 70 million of our children are not God. And most Christians do not, their life is not impacted by that in any significant way. And it's difficult to call yourself a believer if you go to church. And the other six days, you're unheard of on the central moral issue of our time. But Eric, it's always been this way. I mean, a lot of Christians defended slavery. It was a handful who determined that when there's

a fugitive slave law and Caesar says, I can't help the slaves escape. God tells me I must. It was a handful who were willing to challenge Caesar because they had to love their neighbor first. I got to tell you, as I say, Rick, it's an encouragement to me to hear you say all these things because I touch on them in my book, which comes out in September, your book's been out for a couple of months here. But these are big issues. These are central issues for the church in America today. And ladies and gentlemen, you need to understand this stuff.

Because if you don't, you're part of the problem. You don't want to be part of the problem. You don't want to be drifting along. You want to be the one who says, I got it right. I spoke out against slavery in 1850. I spoke out against what the night. Nazis were doing in 1935. Don't pretend that you would have been one of those people if you're not effectively doing it now with the issues that confront us because you're not. We'll be right back

talking to Rick Boyer. The book is God, Caesar, and Idols. Folks, have you purchased a copy of God, Caesar, and Idols? It's the book I'm discussing now with the author Rick Boyer, the subtitle, The Church and the Struggle for America's soul. You, Rick, you go beyond the idea that Christians are supposed to kind of stay away from politics or whatever. You say, what is biblical, we're to be the conscience of the state, we're to get in the face of the state and declare what God says. Otherwise, we cannot be a blessing. Otherwise, we cannot be salt and light in a decaying culture. That's really why we get saved. We don't get saved, and then we're translated to glory. We're still

here, we have work to do, but so many Christians think, well, it's very strange. I don't know what they think. Obviously, it's crazy. They don't have a worldview that makes any sense. Tell us about this. The church has failed to teach, and this is the gut problem, this is the heart problem. The problem is not at its core political. The problem at its core is theological. And that's why it feels funny for me as an attorney and a political activist writing a book that's so heavy on theology. But the problem at its heart is theological. Does the almighty creator God, who created me, who redeemed me, have the authority to tell me what to do? That's the central question.

Is every word of God pure? Read Psalm 119 sometime. It's an ode from David to the word of God, the law of God, the commandments of God, the truth of God. I wish I could memorize a chapter with 176 verses, but read it, love it, live it. The church has failed to teach the whole council of God. We're teaching the half-grade commission. We're teaching only about the afterlife and not about what to do here. We're not teaching about family.

We're not teaching about the proper relation of the church to the state. We're not teaching about economics. The Bible is full of economics. Proverbs is full of economics. Jesus' teaching on the landlord and the vineyard, the owner of the vineyard, it's my money to do with as I please. It's a proud statement, a loud statement in favor of free markets and capitalism, the idea of free contracts between the owner of the vineyard and the laborers. The Bible is full. My former government professor at Liberty University, Kevin Clausen, said the Bible speaks from everything to A to Z, agriculture to zoning.

And Eric, when we only tell people about the afterlife portion of the scripture, which is the most important part, to be sure. But if that's all we teach, we are leaving our people, we're leaving the parishioners in our churches utterly incapable of dealing in the political and civic world with other isms, if you will, Marxism, other belief systems, Marxism, social justice, socialism, utilitarianism, the idea that what's best for the, what's best for the, for the most people is morally right. All these philosophies tell their adherents how to deal with your everyday problems. Isn't that the point? If you do not bring the truth of Scripture into every part of the world, there's no neutral ground. You will then have wicked ideas brought into those parts of the world.

And you've just mentioned it. So we need to understand that it is our duty as Christians to be a blessing to others by doing this. This is not we're confronting people. We are bringing God's truth and blessing into the world. And of course there's going to be conflict. But the idea, the satanic idea, that this is not our job, that we need to stay away from that, that that is not God's fear, it's going to harm people.

If we're called to love people and if you want to love people, you have to speak God's truth in every sphere. You have to be willing to do. that. We're out of time. Rick, I wish we had more time. I'm excited about the book. I hope many people will get a copy. Folks, it is God, Caesar, and idols, the church, and the struggle for America's soul. We need to understand this. It is a vital, vital issue, and I recommend it to you. Rick Boyer, thank you for the book, and thank you for your time. God bless you. Thank you, Eric. Appreciate everything you do. God bless.