The Eric Metaxas Show - Sen. Doug Mastriano and Lee Strobel (Encore)

Episode Date: November 23, 2021

Senator Doug Mastriano comments on the 2020 election audit in his state; then, Lee Strobel documents near-death and beyond-death experiences of both heaven and hell in "The Case for Heaven." (Encore Presentation)

to the Eric Mattaxas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hello to all you fans and listeners of the Eric Metaxe show. Welcome. I am Albin Seder, one of the two producers sitting in for Mr. Metaxus today. And it's a real pleasure for me, really, to welcome you to the start of the Thanksgiving week. Now, I'm certainly sorry about what happened, the tragedy on Waukesha over the weekend in Wisconsin. And it's a very sad way for America to start this Thanksgiving week.

I think everybody was looking for a breather to hope that we would have something to just relax and just say, look, let's all calm down and get into a thankful week. And now we have what happened over in Waukishaw happening. And very, very, very sad. Later this hour, I just want to mention before we introduce our first guest, later this hour, Lee Strobel is interviewed by Eric Nauti. taxes and he's talking about miracles. So hopefully that's going to be a very upbeat, put a positive spin on some things that are going on. But before we get there, I wanted to welcome Senator Doug Maastriano from Pennsylvania to the program. He's going to talk a little bit briefly about the written house verdict and, of course, the tragedy over the weekend. But also,

there's something very big, some very big news coming out of Pennsylvania about the 2020 election and the audit going on there. So Senator Doug Mastery, from Pennsylvania. I want to welcome you back to the program. Thank you. Thank you, all that for having me on. It's a tragic day, though. We watch what happened in Wisconsin yesterday, and our heart is broken. I guess we'll get more information. Looks like the perpetrator there or the accused has a record of sorts of criminal activity. But prayers until then, so we know what's going on for the recovery of those who are injured in that tragic incident. You know, when this happens over, you know, this holiday season between now and Christmas,

it just seems to really hit home a little bit harder because it's a time we come together as a country when we give thanks to God this week. I remember a couple of years back, the Christmas market in Berlin had a similar thing happened. And, you know, it just really hurts because it's supposed to be our family and turning ourselves back over to God. And thankfulness for this great blessing has given us over the past year. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. That's what it is, I'm not kidding. after the written house verdict on Friday. And I just thought, okay, now we can X here. Yes, there's going to be protests. There's going to be some violence, unfortunately. But we're going to get to a Thanksgiving week that we can finally say, like, look, let's try to put some things behind us.

And now this happens. Yeah, it is heartbreaking. So on Rittenhouse, I mean, obviously we watched a bit with bated breaths. Well, first off, clearly that case should not have been brought forth. It should have been dismissed because it was clearly. an act of self-defense. We had the video. We had eyewitnesses. We even had the one guy who was shot that survived that was attacking at Rittenhouse. And it just seems like our basic freedoms are constantly under assault in America. And so that's why it's important that we have more diligence

and that we have more people active politically running for office, what have you. Every position's important. We saw this past year in Pennsylvania and across a nation. School boards are important. The county commissioners are important. Even state senators are important. And so we can't stand aside now. Yeah, I know. And I've said this on the program before. It's one of the things I knew growing up. That phrase had said, all politics are local. And it does start right with your local school board. That's the basis. And you go up from there. Yeah, you really can't make this stuff up. I mean, obviously Loudoun counties put an exclamation point on that whole point of view there and how important even school boards are. But, you know, around my state here, thankfully, a lot of people, instead of just standing aside, and, you know, here's one thing out. really strikes me. American Christians, we have to be careful about, I guess, passivities, maybe not the right word, but just, I guess, lack of care, you know, hey, things are going terrible in our country, and then Christians will often say, they'll throw their hands up

and say, oh, it's God's will. That is ridiculous nonsense. No, it's not his will. For some reason, God chooses to work through the agency of men and women like you and me to stand in the gap, like Esther's, like Gideons, like Martin Luther's, pick a here, George Washington's. And if you just throw up your hands. All right, God will raise up a deliver from elsewhere, Esther chapter 4, but it will take time. There'll be consequences. We saw that in 1934, Germany. There was one guy standing in the way of Adolf Hitler. His name was Kurt Von Schlecker, retired general working within the Baymar Republic. And he could have stopped Hitler and he had his Esther moment. He chickened out. Hitler had him killed a few weeks later. So God raised up a deliver from elsewhere.

The United States armed forces, but it takes us 10 years to get there to think about the consequences. has had Kurt Von Schlecker done his, seize his moment, history would have been different and maybe no Holocaust and catastrophe of the Second World War. So it does matter. So thank you for those who are stepping up these days and standing in the gap and running for office, you know, running for office was never, ever an aspiration for me. And I, you know, turned down his path because I had to do something. Yes, I know. And now you're going to explain what's going on in Pennsylvania because sounds like some positive news this week. Yeah, I hope it could be to be proven wrong. Obviously, I had been leading the effort for a forensic audit in Pennsylvania, and it all

started a year ago this week, actually, the 25th of November, I had my Gettysburg hearing, and it really got things moving as far as exercising or constitutional oversight of reviewing the election results. You know, the left, of course, they have their ridiculous talking points. It's funny, I was reviewing my findings from last year, you know, when the media writes about, you know, Matt Shreanda, who advanced a big lie and, you know, false claims of voting, cheating and what having. I went through my letter,

and they had not disproven anything on my letter thus far. So just journalists, do your jobs, turn your brains on. So Pennsylvania, I was leading the effort, had it all lineup to launch a serious Arizona-style audit, ended up clashing with career politicians in the form of Senator Jake Corman, the president of the Pennsylvania Senate. And he kind of pulled a ruck.

out from underneath the whole thing here. So there is something going on, but I'm not confident that it's going to be Arizona-style forensic investigation. But we do have hope outside of any announcement from Harrisburg is that there are several counties that might go ahead and do their own forensic investigation. So if we could bring it to the local level, that's the way around us. So I'm really thankful for the audit-to-vote ladies who are leading effort in that. It's really a grassroots movement because if you don't have free and fair elections, what happens to the Republic? I agree. I Now, do you know how long it will take to get any kind of results out of whatever's happening now with Pennsylvania? Well, it's a darn shame because I had a solid-up plan.

I would have had it done within six weeks two months ago, three months ago, you know. And this is back in August now, it was September, three months on, almost 100 days beyond where I was when it was pulled out for me because of political ambitions of, you know, of Senator Foreman and others. And this is not a spat between me and him. This is really more about voting integrity. You know, somebody just do the investigation. At the county level, it would probably be early next year. In Harrisburg, what was subpoenaed was not even the ballots. So it's not even headed in the direction that most of us were hoping for.

Okay, because I'd read this story in the Gateway Pundant. I hadn't seen it like anywhere else. And I thought, well, this is a time to bring you back on because I know you spearheaded this. And I've said this many times on the program. If all of this had been reversed, had this been. In six swing states, all the voting stopped at within a couple hours of each other in the early hours after the election. And Donald Trump had come from behind within three days with tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of votes coming in for him. The media would not have said like, oh, well, there's nothing to see here.

In fact, don't even talk about it. He used to come back kid. He did it. He did it. But because it was Joe Biden, it was nothing to see here. So we have to look into these things, folks. We have to look into them. I have to sit through speeches on the Senate floor in Pennsylvania of my colleagues on the other side, stand up.

And I'm quoting them, say, there was no fraud this past election. It was a perfect election. Really? We have Philadelphia. That's renowned for fraud for the past 100 years. Are you kidding me? And then for those people to be so dishonest. And why do we keep the votes, the ballots for 22 months under federal law?

We have to keep them. So they can be analyzed. so they can recount it. They can be looked at, reviewed, forensics, whatever we need to do. And they're just sitting there. Another explanation point. So last week, of course, you may have saw the videos that came out of Delaware County, which is just below Philadelphia. And there's actually a video of voting officials in Delaware County destroying ballots and material related to the election in 2020. And they're talking about, hey, this is a felony, so we have to be careful. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. It's still a big, big giant banana out there that has to be looked into. Unfortunately, we have to leave it.

there. Lee Strobel's coming up next. Eric Metaxus's interview there regarding miracles. So that should be an uplifting 30 minutes for the rest of their show. And don't forget, Nutrametics, this is really great. Nutrametics, who's a big sponsor of this program, 35% off when you use the code Eric all this week. Nutrametics.com, use the code Eric. Senator Doug Masteriano, thank you once again. We'll be hearing from you again in the future, I'm sure. Happy Thanksgiving. You too. Hey folks, I've got to tell you a secret about relief factor that the father, son,

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Or call 800, 500, 500, 800, 800, 800. 8384 relief factor.com. I use it. It works. You live your life and the songs you hear on the rock and roll radio. Ladies and gentlemen, do you believe in an afterlife? Most of you listen to this program probably do. But I hope there are some people who don't because I have as my guest, Lee Strobel.

Many of you know him. He's written a lot of big deal books, always starting with the words, the case for. Not like the case of, you know, the purloined letter, the case of, not mystery stuff, but the case for. He's a journalist or was

a journalist for a long time, Chicago. And the new book is called The Case for Heaven. A journalist investigates evidence for life after death. Lee Strobel, welcome. Thanks, Eric. Great to see you, my friend. It's great to see you. And I have to say, I, you know, the greatest compliment

that I could give is like, I wish I wrote this book because this stuff lights me up, the evidence, the stories, and everything. So let's just, let's leap into it. I mean, there are people that don't believe, they think this is it. And in my book, is atheism dead. I feel like it doesn't really make sense on a number of levels that this is it. But why did you write a book saying effectively, this is not it? There's a thing called heaven, a place called heaven beyond this world.

Well, several years ago, I almost die. And, yeah, my wife found me unconscious on the bedroom floor. She called the paramedics. I woke up, this is something you never want to have happened to you. I woke up in the emergency room and I looked into the face of the doctor. And you looked down at me and he said, you're one step away from a coma, two steps away from dying. And then I went unconscious again. Now, wait a minute.

When was this, Lee? How long ago was this? This was 10 years ago. 10 years ago, I had no idea. I had what's called hyponitremia. What is that? It's a severe drop in my blood sodium level. And I had, I lost a kidney as part of it.

And I was hovering between life and death. My blood sodium level was so low that most doctors, when I give them the medical data on where I was, they look at me and say, oh, you died, right? I mean, you can't live with that. So they have to raise it, the level very carefully. a period of days because if they don't do it right, you'll end up physically or mentally disabled. You may die. And so I hover between life and death for quite a while.

Now, how rare is this? It sounds very rare. I've never heard this before and it just happened out of the blue to you. Yeah, it's highly unusual. As I say, I lost a kidney. And so that contributed to it. And then I had an adverse reaction to some medication that they'd given me because I'd lost my voice, kind of a cascade of things that were highly unusual.

And not a lot people die of it, but quite a few do. It's kind of surprising. Well, it's a reminder since we're talking about the case for heaven. I've become bolder and bolder about saying, ladies and gentlemen, you're definitely going to die. And it could happen tomorrow. I have a friend who lives near you in the woodlands. Dear friend, 30 years, super healthy, almost, I mean, like you, easily could be dead right now. And I think that we live in a culture that pretends like death doesn't exist anymore.

you know, science has moved death back into the corners and we don't talk about it. You could die any moment. Exactly. And all you should really be thinking about before anything else is what happens then? What happens? Right. Is that it? Exactly.

It's not it. That's right. So here I am. I'm a Christian. I'm lying there between life and death. And I believe what the Bible teaches about the afterlife. But then again, you know, I'm kind of a skeptic. My background's a journalism and law.

So I tend to be a skeptic on things. And so I thought, well, how do I know that science and philosophy and history and so forth, that they support what the Bible teaches about the afterlife. So that's what kind of launched me on this investigation to try to. And I interviewed neuroscientists. I interviewed all sorts of people trying to get at the question of how do we know that indeed we do continue to live after our physical demise. Well, what's funny to me is that, you know, you can prove something effectively and people still don't

believe it. I mean, all of the anecdotal evidence about life after death, it piles up to the heavens. It's, you know, no pun intended. It's unbelievable stories that, you know, you can corroborate what the doctors were doing as I was floating. You hear this stuff over and over and over again, and people just wave it away. So what is in this book, the case for heaven? This is your discussions with people who have seen, who have experienced these kinds of things. Yeah, I interviewed neuroscientists, for instance, and others on the question of what did near-death experiences really tell us?

Because I was a skeptic about those. I thought, no, wait, they're just hallucinations. That's just oxygen deprivation to the brain. So even as a Christian, you were a skeptic about this stuff. I didn't think that the science supported. I thought, okay, I can believe what the Bible says, but certainly near-death experiences are just mythology and make-believe and wishful thinking. But what I learned was that there have been 900 scientific articles written about near-death experiences over the last 40 years and published in scientific and medical journals. This is a very well-researched area of science.

In fact, the Lancet, which is the famous medical journal in England, did an article that said that when you look at all of the alternative explanations for near-death experiences, oh, it's oxygen and deprivation. So none of those explanations explain what. actually takes place. And then I interviewed John Burke for my book. John Burke is a Christian pastor in Austin, Texas. He has studied a thousand near-death experiences over 35 years. And his conclusion, which was radical to me, is that when you look at the core of what happens in these near-death experiences, yes, there are some differences, but look at the core of what actually takes place. Don't look at how people interpret it, but look what actually occurs. It is consistent with Christian theology. That was very important to me. And you mentioned the word corroboration, and I'm with you. I mean,

you know, when somebody tells me, oh, I died and I met Jesus and he's five foot 10 as brown eyes, I mean, I go, okay, well, I can't corroborate that. But when we have a study that was done of 21 blind people, most of them blind since birth, who during their near-death experiences could see for the first time. for instance, Vicki Umutpeg, she was 26 years old, blind since birth, chiro accident, she's declared dead. And yet she later says, I, my spirit separated from my body. I watched the resuscitation of her. I saw people for the first time.

She'd never even seen shadows before. So I saw people for the first time. I saw plants. I saw trees. I saw animals. And then when her spirit returned to her body and she was revived, her eyesight disappeared again. One medical researcher said, this is medically impossible.

This just can't happen. And yet we have multiple corroborative cases like that. And of course, the most famous one involves a woman named Maria who was, died in the hospital of a heart attack. And yet she says, I was alive the whole time. I watched the resuscitation efforts, but my spirit floated out of the hospital. And then when her spirit returning was reunited and her body was reanimated, she said, by the way, there's a man's tennis shoe on the third-story ledge, the roof of the hospital. And it's dark blue. It's left-footed. It's a man's shoe. There's some wear over the little toe,

and the shoelace is tucked under the heel. And so they go on the roof and guess what? They find the exact shoe. Now, Lee, I'm pretty sure that could just be a coincidence. Can you, can we believe, like, God is so amazing and so funny? I mean, that that's what he chooses to do to blow people's minds. He could do anything, but he chose that specific. Now, of course, I want you to write another book about who was the guy that lost his shoe and why was it there? But I mean, why is this on the roof, right? That is, that, I've never heard anything like that. That's, you know, because you hear all these stories that the doctors were in this corner of the room and they did this and it. And it's all true. But this is a level of specificity

and altitude, which is really impressive. Yes. Yeah, that's right. There was another case where a woman, 31-year-old housewife from Atlanta, Georgia, had a brain aneurysm. So she got bleeding in her brain. They had to do a radical surgery. So they get her into surgery. They cool her body to 60 degrees first.

Then they drained every drop of blood from her head. Three clinical tests showed there was zero brain activity. No breathing, no heartbeat. She was clinically dead. They put earphones, earplugs in her ears with 100 decibels of noise, which is like a subway train going next to you. And they taped her eyes shut. And yet she said, I was conscious the whole time. And I even met deceased relatives.

I was in the very presence of God. And when her spirit returned to her body, she was able to describe the highly unusual surgical tools that were used during her surgery. She was able to describe the conversations in the surgical suite when she said, one nurse said, we have a problem where arteries are too small. Another nurse said, well, let's try the other leg. And then she was even able to know that during the surgery, they were playing the song Hotel California in the background. The Eagles, one of my favorite bands, although that song's a little dark. It's kind of scary because it's like you can check in, but you can never check out. I don't think I'd want that being played during my surgery, but it wasn't a dark tuneage for a near-death experience.

But I've got to say that, you know, the idea, I actually do mention this in my book is atheism dead. John Lennox talks about this. He says the brain is not the mind and the mind is not the brain. So here they drain all the blood out of her brain. The brain is, there's no brain. But she and her mind continues. So the brain is not the mind. Your brain will rot and you will continue to exist.

We have to go to a break. We'll find out what's on the other side of the break in just a moment. Don't go away. Hey, folks, Eric Metaxis here. Joe Biden and the Democrats have laid out the most socialist agenda our country has ever seen. Instead of following President Trump's blueprint that had the economy booming, the Dems are going to raise taxes, increase regulations, and skyrocketed an already outrageous national debt. If your retirement is in traditional investments, it is in jeopardy. Americans should be diversifying their investments with gold and precious metals.

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Contact Legacy, precious metals today. That's 866-473-6204. Folks, I'm talking to Lee Strobel, who's the author of a new book called The Case for Heaven. A journalist investigates evidence for life after death. I am so fascinated by this. You were just about to say something before we went to the break. Well, you made a very important point, Eric,

which is that we're not reducible to our brain. We are more than our physical brain. And how do we know that? Because there's a difference between our brain, our physical brain, and our consciousness, our mind, or our spirit, our soul. And the example that was given to me by the neuroscientist from Cambridge University, who I interviewed, Dr. Sharon Dierichs, Ph.D. from Cambridge, a well-known neuroscientist, who wrote a book called, Am I just my brain?

And the answer is, no, you're not. But she gave an illustration. She said, what if there was a woman named Mary? And Mary was the world's leading expert on vision. She understood the physical makeup of the eye, how it was constructed, the physics, the chemistry, how the eye functions, how images are carried through the optic nerve, how the brain processes that. She understands it better than anybody in the world, but she's blind. What if all of a sudden, for the first time, Mary received her eyesight? at that moment, would Mary learn anything new about vision?

Yeah, she would. She'd be able to see. She'd have the first person experience of seeing. No amount of knowledge about the physical working of the eye and the brain would get married to that point of that first person experience of seeing. And so consciousness and the brain are not the same thing. Consciousness or the soul or the spirit is distinct. from the human brain.

Don't you find it funny? Whenever you hear people talk about, you know, the idea that the brain's a computer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you say, what is consciousness? I mean, this is heavy stuff. Yeah. But when is it that you become conscious? Computers are not conscious. How big does a computer have to be before it makes the leap to consciousness? It will never make the leap to consciousness because that, you know, a brain is different from a mind.

And when you're talking about this, I mean, this is. I mean, this is very heavy, and there are scientists who have really puzzled over this, and there's some people who just sort of assume that, well, of course, we live in a material universe, but that leap, it's an infinite leap. You can never make the leap from computer to consciousness. That's exactly right. And there really is, I believe, no rational explanation from the materialists who believe we are just our brain to explain consciousness. So you either say it's an illusion, which a lot of materialists, people who just believe the physical world is all there is.

They will say consciousness is an illusion. Free will, Sam Harris says, free will is an illusion. Really? Is that a livable worldview? Not even close. Is that a logical worldview? Not even close. So I think you're absolutely right.

And, you know, the Bible says that there's really two aspects of the afterlife. We're believers. When we die, our spirit, our soul, our consciousness separates from our body. We go to an intermediate state, and we're either present with Jesus in paradise, or we're separated from God in Hades. And then the second phase begins when Jesus returns at the consummation of history. We're united with our now resurrected bodies. We go through final judgment, and then we spend eternity in a very physical place, whether heaven or hell.

So this question, and when Jesus said truly to the repentant criminal on the cross, truly today will be with me in paradise. And the apostle Paul says to be absent from the bodies of the present with the Lord, suggests that indeed our soul does separate from our physical body. And science is telling us, near-death experiences, as I say, which are documented in 900 scientific studies telling us, this is consistent with what the Bible tells us. I really believe... And that's huge. I really believe we're on the verge of revival and reformation

because I really think that science, and again, that's the thesis of my new book. But there is, the evidence is piling up. And it has to do with the Internet and whatever. Somehow the information's exploding. It's harder and harder and harder to avoid. Science is getting us farther and farther. So we can see these things that we could have pretended. ignorance or we could have pretended like who's to say, less and less are we able to say

who's to say? The evidence is here and here and here and it piles up and up and up. And you have to be kind of willful in looking away from it. So I think we're kind of on the verge of something in the West. I'm very hopeful. Yeah. Let's follow the science. So if you follow the science of cosmology, the origin of the universe, if you follow the science of physics, which is the fine-tuning of the universe. If you follow the science of DNA and you look at the biological information in every cell in the human body, this all points toward a supernatural creator whose qualities happen to match the same description of the God of the Bible. So I agree with you. I think that science is pointing increasing. This isn't we discovered over the last 50 or 60 years.

So that's what's so funny. Again, that's when you read my book, you'll, you'll know, like this is exactly where I came out. It's also where Stephen Meyer comes out in his book, The Return of the God hypothesis, on a higher level, writing on a more popular level. But it's called logic. And the fact is that the last 50 or 60 years, it's bad news for the materialist because we didn't have the science that we now have. Now, you can't really say, is God dead? Because the evidence has just piled up while we were kind of in this fantasy that we could live in a secular world. And it's just no longer, it's no longer possible. When did this book come out? Well, I even, yeah, it just came out recently in September. And one of the things I do in it is I have

what I call the pyramid to heaven. I interviewed a philosopher, a famous philosopher about this. And so he said, let's let's start at the broadest question. What is truth? We'll establish what is truth. Truth is that which corresponds to reality. And forgive me, I didn't realize we're bumping into a hard break. This sounds brilliant. This sounds amazing. So as soon as we come back, we're going to hear about the pyramid to heaven with Lee Strobel. Don't go away. The book is the case for heaven. Hey folks, all of you out there know that My Pillow doesn't have box stores or any shopping channels. They've been part of this canceled culture and they want to pass the savings on directly to you. So you can get the lowest price in the history of My Pillow for the classic standard My Pillow regularly

6998, now only 1998 with promo code Eric. They also have queen size regularly 79.998, now 2498 with promo code Eric or king size regularly 89.99, only 2998 with promo code Eric. My pillow is not just pillows. They've got over 150 products, everything from sleepwear to slippers and dog beds, you name it. My promo code Eric also works on my store.com. You can get my books and frankspeech.com. Go to MyPillow.com or call 1,800-978-3057. Use promo code Eric to take advantage of Mike's special offer on his standard My Pillo. That's MyPillow.com promo code Eric or 1-800-978-3057. Folks, I'm talking to Lee Strobel.

The new book is The Case for Heaven. A journalist investigates evidence for life after death. Lee, you were just talking about this person who came up with this idea called the Pyramid of Heaven. So go ahead. What is that idea? Sure. His name, by the way, is Dr. Chad Meister. And he was an atheist for much of his life.

He was on the verge of suicide. Literally had the gun cocked and ready to kill himself. When God supernaturally reached out to him, he became not only a Christian, but he's one of the world's foremost Christian philosophers now. And so I interviewed him from my book, and he said, let's just build a pyramid. Let's start with the broadest issue, the base of the pyramid. What is truth? Well, truth is that which corresponds to reality. Okay, well then next step on the pyramid is what worldviews are there?

Well, there only can be three, atheism, pantheism, which is that everything is God, or theism, that there is a God who we are accountable to. We look at each one of those worldviews, are they livable and are they logical? And we conclude that atheism is neither livable nor logical, neither is pantheism. And yet, theism survives. I just want to interrupt you before you go on. We need to be clear, and this is what I conclude in my book is atheism dead. You can talk all you want about being an atheist, but it is not livable. You cannot, you can say you're an atheist.

I mean, I can say I'm a canary. I can say whatever I want, but you cannot live consistently as though there is no God, there is no meaning. You cannot do it. But this is, this philosopher concludes that. But he also says the same about pantheism. He does. And pantheism is internally inconsistent and it's unlivable. Besides which, by the way, in pantheism, there's no heaven.

There's Nirvana. What is nirvana? Nirvana's been described as what's left after you blow out a candle. It's the extinguishing of yourself. I mean, you're extinguished ultimately. There's so many inconsistencies in pantheism. It can't be true. And yet theism is internally consistent.

But wait a minute. Pantheism is like where you say, become one with everything? Yes, it's reincarnation. Isn't that, isn't that the Buddhist hot dog? What did the Buddhist hot dog vendor say? Or no, what do you say to a Buddhist hot dog vendor, make me one with everything?

Ha ha. That's good. I had to put in just a really cheap, stupid joke in case people. I'm sorry. All right, so, but let's keep going. So pantheism doesn't work. Atheism doesn't work. So you're left with theism.

There's one God. You left with theism. Exactly. And then you're left with. look at revelation, you look at, okay, well, can we trust what the Bible tells us? Can we trust the New Testament? Is it essentially reliable in what it tells us about the life, teachings, miracles, death, and resurrection of Jesus? And we conclude, yes, it is reliable. Then we look at the resurrection, evidence inside and outside the Bible that confirm and corroborate that Jesus didn't just claim to

be the son of God. He backed up that claim by returning from the dead. So the pyramid's getting narrow and narrow, and then finally at the tip of the pyramid is the gospel. And when we get to that point, we're reaching heaven. I mean, that's the doorway that we can enter into heaven. So it's kind of a way of looking at the thought as possible and working our way to the conclusion that the Christian teaching is that which makes sense and which is livable. I just want to say it's so important for us to understand that our faith is real and it's logical. And whenever anybody says that's not true, we have to know.

that they're mistaken. We don't have to say like, well, I think you're mistaken. You have to know, just like the way you know, you know, science is real, math is real. This is not just what we want. And I think that there are a lot of people that they just want to look away. They want to believe what they want, or they've been wounded or something. Do you have any stories in this book, the case for heaven, where people experience life after death and it's not heaven but hell? Yes, absolutely. Howard Storm. Howard Storm was an atheist. He was a professor at a secular university and he had to the art department. He dies in the hospital. But then he said, yeah, they're saying I'm dead, but I'm standing next to my body. He's still alive. His soul is still alive. And some guys in the hallway say, hey, come with us. And so he's, okay. So he follows him down the hallway of the hospital. And then down another corridor, down another corridor. And finally said, where are we going? We've been walking forever. And they started to get mean to him and started clawing. him and biting him and and swearing at him and they literally as he said they reduced me to roadkill his eye would scouse out his ear was chewed off and he said he said no horror movie can ever

capture the cruelty of what they did to me and then he called out to jesus jesus came rescued him and then ultimately he is revived he comes back his spirit is reunited with his body he resumes consciousness, he not only rejects his atheism, he not only becomes a Christian, he becomes an ordained pastor, and to this day is the pastor of a tiny little church. I believe it's in Oklahoma. It radically changed. Like 24% of these near-death experiences are hellish experiences or they are negative experiences in some way.

Now, it's important to understand that people in near-death experiences, they're dead. They've been declared dead. Some in the morgue. and yet they're not irreversibly dead. You know, the Bible talks about you were appointed once to die and then the judgment. Well, they're not dead in an irreversible way because they're going to come back. So they're clinically dead. And that's like Lazarus.

Exactly. That's exactly right. And so as a result, we can have a situation where Jesus, this is post-mortem, so to speak, he calls out to Jesus and Jesus rescues him. I'm not sure we all can count on that when we're, irreversibly dead. You know what I mean? That's the horror. I think we have to be honestly. I don't want to believe hell is real, but the evidence seems to suggest that it is. The Bible suggests strongly that this is what it is. And then you hear stories. C.S. Lewis, there's a new film out called the Most Reluctant Convert. People can go see it. I recommend it highly. But C.S. Lewis talks about

a friend, I think it was when he was in World War I. And one of them he'd been dabbling in the occult. And as he was dying, he's screaming out, you know, these devils are clawing at me, help me, help me. I mean, it just seemed obvious what is happening. You hear these stories and we need to take this seriously, folks. It's absolutely horrific, but we need to face it. I have two chapters in the book on hell because I knew I couldn't write a book about the afterlife without dealing with hell. And I deal with two of the ways in which a lot of young pastors are trying to soften hell a bit. One is through teaching universalism that ultimately we're all saved. We're going to meet Adolf Hitler in heaven, which is a heresy.

And then some pursue what's called annihilationism, which means that when you die, snuffs you out of existence. You don't go to hell for eternity. When we come back, I want to explore both of those. This is very important, folks. I hope you don't go away. We'll be right back with Lee Strobel. The book is The Case for Heaven. Don't forget, Nutrametics, this is really great.

Nutrametics, who's a big sponsor of this program, 35% off when you use the code Eric all this week. Nutrametics.com, use the code Eric. Folks, we just got a few moments left with Lee Strobel, and I thought, hey, want to talk about hell. Lee, your book is called The Case for Heaven, but you talk about how some pastors are trying to, I don't know, blur the line and say, well, not really.

everybody ends up in heaven. I wish, but I don't see how that's possible. But I wish. I mean, the thought of this is so horrifying. So they talk about universalism, or they talk about annihilationism, that maybe we are blown out like a candle, and that is it.

Yeah. Those two are very popular. We can say about universalism, there's so many passages in scripture that are dependent on you responding to the gospel message. John 112, the last verse I read as an atheist that brought me to fate that says, but as many has received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God,

even to those who believe in his name. So the formula is believe plus receive equals become. We have to receive God's grace. There's too many passages that make eternal life contingent on our response to God. And annihilationism. Now, John Stott, the great evangelical pope, so to speak, 20th century, ended up believing in annihilationism. It's not a heresy. It's a secondary issue. You can make a really good biblical case for it. And I do in the book. In fact, I talked to an

annihilationist who said, I read your book. Thank you for spelling out our case very accurately. They can make a good case, but it falls short, I believe. Although I want to say to people, if you really, really, really, really think about annihilationism, you should be utterly horrified of that. That's a lot. That's not a good thing. It is really, really sick. People don't make, you're exactly right. Most people say, oh, yeah, well, that wouldn't be bad.

No, are you serious? Do you want to be snuffed out of existence for eternity? For eternity. Anyway, yeah, we're living in times where people don't, you know, it's kind of the same old complaint in a way, but that a lot of people from pulpits are not talking about these uncomfortable things. Maybe because people in the past have spoken about these things incenses. or somehow wrongly, you know, we shouldn't be, well, I mean,

shouldn't be gloating over it. No, no, and we should be weeping at the very idea that anyone could ever possibly go to hell. It's horrifying, and we should do everything we can to tell people that there's something beautiful. It's God's intention for them. Unless you're Presbyterian Calvinist, in which case, who's to say? Yeah, well, we've just got a minute left. What do we say?

I'm just so glad you wrote this book, Lee, The Case for Heaven. I really am just, I'm excited about it. People need to know. Life is tough enough. We need to know where we are supposed to go and where the Lord wants us to go. Yeah. Can I say one last thing? Yes, anything.

I interviewed Luis Palau, the great evangelist. I was the last interview and before he died. And he said something to me, Eric, I think is relevant to all of us. Here he is. He knows he's about to die. He shared his faith with a billion people during his lifetime. Great man of God. And he said to me, Lee, when you get to the end of your life and all is sudden done,

you will never regret being courageous for Christ. That's a message for all of us. Louis Palau was a friend and I just loved him so much. I did too. And I could see the joy of Jesus in him. Yes. And that's the way we're supposed to go out of this life, knowing that there is no question that where we're going is infinitely better than wherever we are.

We need to know that. We shouldn't hope that, folks. Don't hope it. Know it. You will live differently. Lee, I'm just grateful for you generally, particularly grateful for this. this book, The Case for Heaven. Thank you for your time and writing this important book. God bless you. I appreciate it. God bless you. Don't forget, Nutrametics, this is really great.

Nutrametics, who's a big sponsor of this program, 35% off when you use the code Eric all this week. Nutrametics.com, use the code Eric.