The Eric Metaxas Show - Shane Winnings and Mario Murillo

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Promise Keepers' Shane Winnings on resetting the cultural agenda. More at https://www.youtube.com/shanewinnings Mario Murillo's discusses the miraculous and Kathryn Kuhlman on Dick Cavett.

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Hey there, folks. It falls to me now to introduce my next guest, Shane Winnings. That's his real name. Shane Winnings, he is the chairman and CEO of Promise Keepers. He's been on here before. Shane, welcome back. Hey, thanks for having me. How come you get a cool name like Shane Winnings?

That's like a stage name. Isn't it you were born with a stage name? Yeah, I got to thank my parents for that one. But I'll tell you what, I lost a wrestling match in high school, and my coach said good job losings. So, you know, it has come back to bite me at one point. That can happen. I still think it's, you know, it's better than Bert McGillicuddy.

That would be a name you'd want to change to Shane winnings. So congratulations. Thanks. I'm having a great name. Now, listen, we've got to talk about some serious stuff. I keep saying that it's not enough that we reelected Donald Trump. It is vital that we did that. It's vital that we drain the swamp in Washington and on and on and on.

But now we, the people, have to turn to the culture. The culture is, it's been moving in the wrong direction for 60 plus years. And some of the fruit of that we're seeing right now, the almost horrible stuff imaginable. You posted something about there's a production of Jesus Christ Superstar being put up at the Hollywood Bowl. I'm not sure when that is happening. Yeah, I know it's coming up soon, I believe, but they casted a gay black female to play Jesus Christ. And I mean, gay black female. So there's three reasons right there that she doesn't fit the role.

You know, and I get. Well, now, actually, this is interesting, right? because I would have no problem. We always have to go to motive. Why would they do that, right? Now, to ask someone who is black, a black man, I don't really have a problem with that in a way. Sort of like you're making kind of a, in some ways, a valuable point.

Jesus is for everyone. But what happens when you say, oh, Jesus is a woman? That's a different thing. It's a different thing because Jesus, Jesus was a man and maybe Jesus wasn't a black man but I wouldn't be offended by that some people maybe would be that I don't know

what the issue is there but to say that it could be a woman that right there you say well not really like that's now you have a deeper problem because Jesus was a man

to Abba Fah He prayed. There's something there. A line is being crossed. But then when you say, oh, and by the way, she's a lesbian, you kind of think, like, well, now where are we going with this? So what it really reveals to me, and I'm curious if you, if you, it's your response, this is cultural Marxism. They want to say, in terms of intersectionality, we have all the categories of the oppressed, the woman. a woman of color. There's two and three, the, you know, lesbian, whatever it is. So all these categories of this oppressed person. And you realize that the left and the left in the church, they really become addicted to this way of seeing things. Right. So it's, it's kind of bizarre to me. I mean, it's, yeah, I agree. And I think it's totally intentional. And like you said, you've got to look at the motive. And what is the motive that's been pushed? You know, what's the agenda that's been pushed? And it's that, you know, the whole gender thing and everything

is gay and, you know, and then you got to, you got to top it off with like, she's black. And again, well, Jesus wasn't white either. So that's where I fall. I'm like, I think it's wrong if he's cast as white. It's technically wrong if he's cast as he wasn't African American. You know, he's from the Middle East. So he would have looked something in between. But I think, like you said, when you put all of it together, it truly is like they're sitting down and they're saying, how can we deconstruct who Jesus actually was in every single area? Because if we can begin to push the limits in regard to his gender, in regard to his race, in regard to his sexuality, well, you know, we're creating these false Christ that Paul warns about in many of his letters.

To me, it's just, it's sort of all about marketing. They're trying to be edgy. Hollywood always does this. They don't really care if it's right or wrong. They just want to be edgy. They want to push boundaries. So years ago, you know, casting Jesus as black would have been really edgy. But now they've got to go way farther. Casting Jesus as a woman, casting Jesus. And you think, well, that's just, it's, it's, I don't think that they're quite aware of it, but it is very confusing. To some extent they are aware. It's deliberately confusing. It's deliberately confusing the idea of who Jesus was and what he stands for. They're doing that deliberately.

And again, the lesbian thing, that's the clearest crossing of a line. They're saying there's nothing you can do about your sexuality. That's who you are. And that's how God made you. And Christians say, no, if that's a choice you want to make, that's fine. It's a free country. But don't pretend that God made you that way. The Bible doesn't say that God makes you that way.

but they're insisting that he does. And there are many Christians, many evangelical Christians that have been dramatically confused on this very issue. Well, I'll tell you what, one, they've never found a gay gene. So there's that. But two, even if for argument's sake, you were born that way, well, the wonderful thing about Christianity is you're called to be born again. So even if you're born that way, you're called to be born again.

And a Christian is a brand new creation. That's the same word that was used in Genesis. something that's never existed before. So when you get born again, say that you believe you were born gay, well, now you're a Christian and you're born again. You have new life. So there's that issue. But to me, you know, imagine if they casted someone for the role of George Washington and it was a gay

black woman. You would go, this is historically inaccurate. Like, what are you trying to do here? Well, Jesus Christ is as real as George Washington was. So I think even from a historical standpoint, it's like you guys are way off base here. And it would be ridiculous to try to push an agenda that George Washington was a lesbian black woman. But why is it somewhat acceptable when it comes to Jesus Christ? You know, they're not going to do this about Muhammad or anyone else.

But it's always the Christians that end up facing persecution. And unfortunately, we're seeing this on the other side of the globe with Christians being crucified, Christians being beheaded. I mean, it's horrific what's happening, and it's not really getting a lot of mainstream coverage. So I think from nasty names to, you know, misrepresenting our Savior to actually killing Christians. Christians are under fire right now. It is interesting how you're seeing a level of explicit evil in the world. I mean, ladies and gentlemen, you know, there's levels here. What's happening at the Hollywood Bowl with a lesbian woman being cast as Jesus, that's one.

level that's very mild. You're seeing the murder, the torture murder of Christians in Syria. And then you're seeing the mainstream media not give a darn about what ought to be front page above the full news. Fox News, as of today, we're recording this, has not mentioned one word. Fox News, ladies and gentlemen. You can, you know, Kavech all you want, about NBC, ABC, ABC, CBS. Fox News on their homepage, FoxNews.com, not one word as of today when we're recording this. I'm not sure we're not going to air this today. But this has been going on and on and on, not one word from Fox News. That's unbelievable to me. Yeah, and it's breaking. And I mean, we're not talking about 10 or 20 Christians, which is still a big deal.

We're talking about, I just read a report that said 785 Christians in the last 48 hours, and now we're up to a total of 2,000. And one man, the jihadist just posted video, they were crucifying him and then they shot him. And it's like, how was this not getting any coverage? If this was any other people group, God forbid it was, you know, anyone in the LGTVQ movement. Imagine if 2000 LGTBQ were dragged out and crucified. I mean, it would be, there were. would be riots everywhere. But when it's Christians, it's not seen as legitimate. And I just,

I do understand from a biblical sense because the Bible says, you know, you're going to speak and they're not going to understand you. They're not of the same spirit. But even in my flesh, it's, it makes you frustrated because you're like, dude, these are people literally losing their lives in a brutal way. Folks, we'll be right back talking to Shane winnings. So you're putting money away, saving for the future, for retirement, for your family. You're doing what you're supposed to do, right? Well, what if I told you that your 401k, IRA, and other investments are probably paying for gambling, abortion, and LGBT causes? Inspire Advisors can tell you where your profits are really coming from.

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folks welcome back i'm talking to shane winnings he's the chairman and CEO of promise keepers a lot to talk about we're talking about what's going on in the culture we were talking just a moment ago about the murder of many many many Christians in syria now we have to review folks the the deep state idiots the rhino idiots uh who thought oh let's get rid of this dictator Assad just kind of like let's get rid of this dictator Saddam Hussein, they're bad. Yeah, they're very bad, but infinitely worse is when you get rid of them, what comes in. So what has come in is satanic, sadistic, radical Muslims who butcher Christians with impunity. That's what's happening right now. So this real evil in the world, this ought to be a bracing thing for us. And it gives us an opportunity to see what's the response to it.

And we were just talking about the media doesn't seem to be interested in this. They're interested in every stupid thing. All you have to do is go to foxnews.com. Look at the garbage on their homepage. There's a couple of articles, but it's a lot of clickbait garbage. Not one word about the massacre. I mean, you talk about genocide. People throw these words around.

What's going on there? It's absolutely unbelievable. And I wanted to touch on this, Shane, a little while. ago, Bernie Sanders had a rally. Someone at the rally, I guess somebody who identifies as a trans, blah, blah singer, performed the most blasphemous, foul, cornographic against God and Jesus song imaginable. I think if you ambitiously tried to do something more demonic, you couldn't do it. It was the most foul thing. This is what the Democrats put up.

This isn't some weird thing that happened on the internet. Bernie Sanders, senator, U.S. Senator, approved of this, thanked the singer. It is, to me, it keeps bringing up this issue of if you didn't really know what to believe, and you looked at that, you'd say, if they're on the right side of things, why would they do that? Why would they do something that seems satanic? It's just a fascinating cultural moment to see the evilness of evil in a way none of us in our lifetimes has ever seen. Yeah, and it's so vulgar, it's foul, it's not even just like some anti-Christian rhetoric. I mean, it is, I saw that, the article in the video that you're referring to.

It is also just so foul and vulgar. And I think that alone, why would someone holding a U.S. political seat sign off on that? And why would you platform that in the fashion you did? It's not like he retweeted something. I mean, this was at his rally. And people say it all the time, but like when someone shows you who they are, you should believe them. And we saw this from the left during, you know, the DNC when they had the abortion van out front in the vasectomy van. And, you know, they ran a campaign on everything that God hates.

And I'm at this point where it's like, this isn't political anymore. This is straight up evil. It's in your face. And at this point, you know, there's those who are blind and there's those who are choosing to look away. But we've got to have people who are willing to say, look, this is inherently evil. Even if you're not a Christian, the things that that person was saying, I don't even know what their gender is, were despicable. And we should be disgusted. Well, that's the thing is like I think what's happening right now, Christians have to be much bolder.

And there are a lot of Christians, they still want to pretend like, oh, I don't know, it's like 1985 and, you know, we can all get along. when somebody does something like this, I mean, I don't think they could do anything more provocative. Like I think they've gone as far as they can go. To me, the good news is it reveals their desperation. There's a level of utter desperation on the secular left. And they are, they've given themselves over to the demonic. They didn't used to do that. They used to try to be reasonable, you know, when you think of Vietnam protests or whatever,

it's interesting. When somebody has an important point to make, they don't go. where these folks go. I mean, when you think of the civil rights movement, my goodness, think of the dignity. Right. Dignity. It bespeaks something beautiful. You look at it and you think they must have an important point because look at the dignity with which they are comporting themselves. And a lot of people's hearts were touched by that. This is the opposite of that. I think this is going to turn a lot of people away. I believe so too. I mean, it's like reminiscent of things that people would do in high school and the edgy people, not even widely accepted, let alone someone who was holding some

type of leadership position. But, you know, I think of even the presidential debate from the early 2000s where, you know, they would sit down at a table and they were having these conversations. And one of the candidates, I believe it was like a two-day thing or a two-part thing, he came back and he said, hey, before we get started, I just need to let you guys know, I misspoke yesterday. I stated a fact and it was it was factually incorrect. And I just want to correct that for the record. You don't see that anymore. You see people doubling down. They resort to name calling, deflecting. It's as if we have lost the ability to hold reasonable conversations to actually debate. It's a lost art. And the people who do it and stick to the facts, you know, they're not

seen as very popular because most Americans seem to be caught up with, well, I won't say most because the last election showed that that's not true. But a lot of Americans, too many, including those in the church, we get caught up in the shiny thing. And so we're pulled over here with this stupid argument instead of staying on course. And so while we're getting distracted, the enemy has been advancing his campaign an inch at a time. And that's why we look up from 1985, 40 years later, we're nowhere close to where we used to be. And the limit of what's acceptable today, not even close to where it was 40 years ago. Well, it really is astonishing. I think all of this God and His mercy is using, it to bring us back to basics to say, okay, we've gone way too far. We need to repeal the lunacy

that we have allowed to come in, you know, through the sexual revolution, the breakdown of the family, the breakdown of every standard and everything. We need to go back. And that's part of the whole make America great again. You know, what were we doing right back then that we've ceased to do? We've drifted and drifted and drifted. Some of that has to do with government policies and laws. Some of it has to do. A lot of it has to do with our mores, uh, and our with, with the culture. And that's what you and I talk about a lot. What's going on with promisekeepers? Tell us about that since you're the head of promisekeepers. Yeah, thanks for asking. So, you know, we're known for our men's conferences. We're going to be doing several conferences around the nation in the fall and

winter. And so we're putting those out on our website at promisekeepers.org. I'm actually about to begin a college tour where I'm going to set up at campuses and, you know, I'm going to have a table and, you know, in a banner and ask the question, what is a man? And give people the opportunity to tell me what they think a man is and ultimately prop me up to be able to explain what I believe a man is. And that's a godly man. And that's because in our society and really in the church, there is not a lot of teaching on manhood. You know, even my boys' Bible study when I was in high school, it was just men who studied the Bible together. It wasn't anything about actual manhood. So I'm hopeful that we can teach the next generation what it means to be a priest, provider, and protector.

So we've got those things going on. We're super excited to gather men together. We need it because the biggest combatant against Marxism is a strong American family. And the leader of those American families, by God's design, is a man. So that man needs to know what it means to lead. You know, it's interesting. This has been a big subject for me. We have Josh Hawley at Socrates in the City talking about his book.

on manhood. People can see that at Socrates in the city.com or on our YouTube page, if it's up yet, probably not up yet. But it's an important subject suddenly. I wrote a book, in fact, over 10 years ago, I realized this is a big issue. So I wrote a book called Seven Men and the Secret of Their Greatness.

Who are seven men that we could point to? And I wrote a sequel called Seven More Men to say, that is a life worthy of emulation. That is a man that somehow achieves a kind of greatness which is really God's idea of greatness, because the world's idea of greatness is often wrong. It often can be toxic masculinity or it can be lack of masculinity. God's standard of what a man can be. And it's going to be different for every man, but there are some basics.

And so in the book, I have a chapter on George Washington. I have a chapter on Jackie Robinson, Dietrich Bonhofer, William Wilberforce, and others. And you realize that we need those models because the culture has given us back. bad models. You've got toxic masculinity like Andrew Tate, who's the biggest jerk on the planet. You have examples of zero masculinity men. We need examples of masculine men. We've just got a minute, so keep going on this subject, if you would. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I couldn't have said it better. I mean, sadly, I know a lot of young boys in the church, whether through groups that I help lead or whatever, and they find some things that Andrew says appealing. And the problem

is he does say some things that could be helpful and effective. Excuse me. Hitler said some things that were... Exactly. Exactly. You know, and the devil will say something that are appealing. But, you know, yeah. But that's the problem. They latch on to the good and they're willing to overlook the bad. And I'm like, no, the bad that they're saying is decaying you from the inside. And that just reveals we need godly men to be the example. And if we don't speak out, then men like Andrew Tate will continue to. And so I'm thankful for your voice as we keep preaching about what it means to be a biblical man yeah well that's beautiful well Shane just great to have you on congratulations on all you're doing we'll get you back uh we are always interested in the work of

promise keep keep in touch with us god bless you well do you too folks uh i don't know if today is miracle monday or not i uh i left my watch in the other room but here's the point i'm talking to my friend mario marillo Mario, welcome back to this program. You traffic in miracles. God has used you miraculously. We had John recently to talk about this film, I Am Living Proof. When in your life did the miraculous become real to you? I know you've told that on the program in the past, but a lot of folks are just tuning in.

Well, I think you're going to find this especially interesting. I was trying to win souls on the University of California campus at Berkeley in the 70s. I was a kid. And here the anti-war movement was flaming. The campus, you know, 44,000 students, and the anti-war movement was going on. And I thought that I would study G.K. Chesterton, Francis Schaefer, C.S. Lewis, the Christian apologists. I thought, if I could arm myself with a gospel that could be debated, and I do believe in that.

I do believe that's important, where it says in Second Christian, Corinthians 10, casting down every argument that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. And I do believe that Paul would engage in debate, and I find it very important. However, in this instance, God told me, you have to pray for the sick, and students need to see people healed. And I found that impossible to believe. I knew it was the voice of the Lord, but in all my efforts on the campus, nothing was working. They were rejecting it all. They were very leftist university. Then the Lord told me to have an event. Obviously, we had a 90-seat chapel at that time. We, by a miracle, ended up having a building in Berkeley, which is amazing. And so on a

Saturday night, we passed out leaflets telling people that they needed prayer for healing. And a young man came there, and these people, this scrambles my theology, by the way. So this is how began. I'm preaching to about 90. Half the audience is ready to leave because they don't want to hear this. And two people carrying a young man who's unconscious from having taken a combination of LSD and heroin. In the back of it, they gave him a shot with a needle mixing both of those drugs into the back of his knee. And he went out. And they were afraid of the law enforcement. So they came to this meeting. And so I've got to an unconscious student laying on a couch and I'm preaching. And my sermon is going over like a

pregnant pole vaulter. It's just like reaching the end of the pulpit and going straight to the ground. And God says, stop. And you know, a lot of arguments about the sovereignty of God, about does God do it on his own without our, blah, blah, blah. This student on the couch woke up and ran and fell in front of me. And he began cursing, which again, scrambles my theology. God healed him, and he knew it. And he's standing there screaming at me in anger. He's saying, why would God do this to me?

I hate God. And I have no room to figure this out. That was our first convert. Well, the news of that spread through the university campus. The fraternities, sororities, they all heard about it. So every Saturday night, we never had room for students. And I kept preaching specifically on healing and miracles and the presence of God. That's how it began.

What year was this? 1972. Okay, I was going to say, it had to be around then as you're describing LSD heroin, Berkeley campus. Ladies and gentlemen, can you picture this world that we're talking about? I also find it funny that you're... talking about G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaefer, never, those three intellectual giants of the Christian faith, they never talk about the miraculous. I mean, even C.S. Lewis writes a book about

miracles, but he's not moving in any of this kind of stuff. And you're studying them, and of course, they're three of the greatest, but they're not, this is not Smith Wigglesworth. This is not Catherine. No. Boolman. This is not anybody in that world, Orwell Roberts. But God, sovereignly calls you to start moving in this stuff. But I still have to go backwards. How old were you when you came to faith to begin with? I was 15 years old. It was about two weeks before I turned 16 and in San Francisco, which is not famous for producing evangelists, by the way. In the 60s, in San Francisco. I can just picture it. Hey, Dashbury, folks. You can figure it. Yeah. figured out.

So, yeah. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say that one of the things that happened is one day I turned on my radio on my Volkswagen, and Catherine Kuhlman was on the Christian station. And I thought, this is the funny and sounding woman I've ever heard. So I was about to turn it off, and I kept it on. and she became my lunch ritual from then on. I went from Chesterton and Francis Schaefer and all these guys

to listening to this woman teach who the Holy Spirit was. And that, my friend, became the framework for what started with 90 students to 150 students to 300 to 500 until 2000. I want to come back. I want to do at least another segment with you, Mario, because I just love talking to you, but I want to frame this for people

because I'm old enough to remember who Catherine Coolman was. Not really. I remember Ruth Buzzy on Laugh-In would mock Catherine. Not really in a mean way, but Catherine Coolman came across. I mean, she was this woman evangelist healer. And if you watched her,

I don't care where you're coming from, you go like, you know what? She's kind of weird. She's kind of flaky. She's kind of eccentric. And you know why? She actually was. That's why people thought that.

But God moved through her. Through her. When we come back, we'll talk more about Catherine Coolman, talking to Mario Marillo. How much. Like Mr. Mumbles and your... Snow. See, man. Someone call us Babylon.

Welcome back talking to my friend Mario Marillo about how he came to faith and then starts moving in this healing stuff. So you're telling us. stuff. It's just another era, Mario. You were a very young man, and you come to faith. And so here you are reading all these intellectual giants, C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, Francis Schaefer. And then suddenly you stumble on the radio on Catherine Coolman, who is, who comes across as totally flaky. And in some ways she was, but not really. In other words, she was of God. God used her, but I've watched some videos of her. And it really is kind of funny. It's sort of stilted and awkward.

And we don't know why God does that. Sometimes God gives you all of the trappings to come across, you know, in the way that it'll appeal to nonbelievers. And other times he does just the opposite. And it's like he's daring people to run away or to make fun of it. And she was kind of like that. But if you listened, you realize, you know what? This is real. So God pulls you into that.

Yes, sir. And listening to her. Yeah, well, let me tell you one thing about Catherine. Again, a lot of our audience won't remember the name Dick Cavett, but that was a talk show that was quite big at one time. Excuse me. This audience will remember Dick Cavett because Dick Cavett is a personal friend of mine. I don't know if I've shared that with you. Well, then you need to talk to Dick.

You need to talk to Dick about this. Dick had Catherine Coulburn on his show, and they brought a video of a man getting out of a wheelchair in her meeting. and Dick Cavett saw the video. The man is in the wheelchair. He gets up and walks. His paralysis is gone. And I'll never forget it. She looks at him and he says, Catherine, after they run the clip, he says, Catherine, what do you do when something like that happens?

And she lunged at him and said, what would you do? And I've never seen Dick Cavett look, but his eyes got so big. But it was in that moment, what the bottom line of that is that the supernatural power of God doesn't just affect you on an emotional level. You turn to God. You want to get right with God. It's funny.

It's very polarizing because in the Bible, when a miracle happened, all of the people cheered and the Pharisees wanted to kill it. So whatever you are, it's going to amplify. And you have to really understand that they called Catherine the religious Betty Davis because she could have been an actress. But there was no doubt that the power of God was with her. Now, I'm just fascinated that you say that she was on Dick Cavett's show. I didn't know that. And if I get a chance, I'll bring that up to him.

Yes. I mean, I have to say that it was, maybe it was 1969. Woody Allen had a big special on ABC. and he had Billy Graham on as his kids. They did a 10-minute conversation together. Now, Billy Graham never trafficked in The Miraculous at all. But I got to talk to Woody Allen about that, you know, at some point briefly. But it's such a fascinating thing that there are people when they're confronted by this,

they just don't know where to go with it and they kind of have to step away. And of course, God wants us to step toward it. Now, you actually knew Catherine Coolman. Well, I never met her, but I worked with her team for a long, long time. And I was at her meetings in the Shrine Auditorium virtually every month. She was in the Shrine Auditorium from 1966 until 1976 when she died. It was during the 70s that I would come from Berkeley 400 miles to go to the shrine and became a part of watching. and seeing the thousands of people that were touched miraculously. It was an astonishing event

to watch her, and especially the presence of God that was with her and on her. And so that was a tremendous imprint on me to be a part of that. And I believed it needed to be taken to the university. That's where I felt it needed to be. It needed to be in one of the most intellectual climates you can ever imagine and I never thought for an instant that I would be in Polly Ballroom, the student union building of the University of California. I didn't dream I would preach from the steps of Sprow Plaza and use Wheeler Hall, Berkeley Community Theater, and all these students and professors were touched by the power of God. We had a group in our ministry called the Lions of Judah they were 17 Jewish atheists that had gotten saved

I only led Ralph Oyer was excuse me I only led one of them to Christ Roger Gottlieb was his name Ralph Oyer was another student and when when he got saved when Roger Gottlieb got saved he led his friends to the Lord they all got baptized in the spirit.

Some of them were in the Bolt School of Law that were students there. They were way above my pay grade because I had like one year of community college beyond Hollywood, beyond high school. And at that moment, to see these students being touched by God, it took a life of its own. And they literally devised ways of witnessing that I didn't even understand. But it was just amazing. So it kind of snowballed. Suddenly it was during the middle of the Jesus movement is what it was. Well, I mean, most of us see, that was a time of revival in America.

I think we're going through that again right now. Yes. Fascinating, because when you talk about the miraculous, it seems clear. I mean, even a cessationist says when Jesus is doing miracles or the disciples are doing miracles, that attracts people to Jesus. People, the whole point of the miracle, and I write about this in my miracles book, the whole point of a miracle is God trying to get your attention. He doesn't need to do miracles.

Everything is a miracle. But when he does a miracle miracle, he does it to make you go, what, what, what, this must be real. He does it on purpose. So he does it, you know, in biblical times. And ever since God does these things, I think we need more of that now. Because when somebody sees a miracle, a real miracle, it changes everything. You've been describing it, you know, many times on this program. and I think we need more of that.

I want to hold you over for a final segment, Mario. Folks, this is important stuff. The miraculous is important. And I really believe we're in a miraculous season now where God wants to do this stuff to bring people to himself. So this is, I just find this very, very exciting. In any case, we'll be back.

I'm talking to Mario Marillo. I've seen far and I've seen rain. I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end. Welcome back, folks, talking to Mario Marillo. We're talking about miracles. Mario, I want to talk to you about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I don't know if I've ever talked about it on this program before. There are many, many, many, many Christian friends I have, dear friends who don't, they don't go there.

They don't get into that. How would you describe that to somebody who is just maybe not comfortable with it or that it seems confusing or somehow threatening to them? Well, I think that what needs to be said about the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus said about it. He said, you will receive power and be my witness. We live in an era where the baptism of the Holy Spirit, unfortunately, the advocates of it, I'm not just talking about the critics, but the advocates of it have given it a tag where it's emotional or it helps you enhance your walk with God.

it's a turbocharger to your faith. And none of those things are the primary purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It's an extremely evangelistic gift. He said, you will be my witness after you receive power. Now, why is that essential? Well, you know, in your book, is atheism dead? There's a powerful argument that you make about how suddenly atheism has lost its hold on society. Powerful book. And I thought to myself, one of the reasons that we need the baptism

of the Holy Spirit is because we're in this temporary reprieve in our country. Regardless of your Democrat Republican, we are in a moment where we have been spared something and there's a hunger for God. The baptism and the Holy Spirit has got to be regarded as this. We can't let souls go to hell, we can't let America go down the tubes. The church needs to become a soul-winning machine. It's wonderful that we believe that we have the luxury to conjugate all these Greek verbs and find out about the silver tax on the right side of Daniel's altar and what we think about escatology. But I feel that all of that needs to be dispensed with almost entirely in favor of a surge, a surge of going out and in the power of God being able to witness.

Now, we don't have time to learn all of the nuances of how to witness. And sometime in the Jesus movement, we learn that spilling Christ on people, by our spontaneous testimony, the fact that it was disjointed, it was not well-rehearsed or polished, had a great impact. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is why the Pentecostal movement has now got about 650 million adherents around the world because of its evangelistic nature. It is what turns you into a soul-winning machine. And I think that's what needs to be said about it.

So in the Baptist and the Holy Spirit, we've got like 45 seconds left. Can people just pray for that, ask God for that? The Bible says that God gives it to those who obey him. And so if it's an act of obedience and it's a part of what Christ, died on the cross to give you, it is absolutely available. And the sincere heart will receive. They will receive. This is powerful stuff. We've got to get you back on to talk more about this, Mario. It's been too long. Thank you. Yes. We began today because there is a lot to talk about. The baptism of the Holy Spirit. I mean, when I became a serious Christian in 1988, a few months later,

I went to a conference and I think it was Ridgefield, Connecticut, and it was Terry Fullum, and it was the St. Paul's Dary Ann group, and they were all into the charismatic stuff. And Lee Buck, an evangelist, he just prayed, and I received the baptism. And you can't make it up. It just happened. It's real. Absolutely. And I've been speaking in tongues for all these years.

It's just a real thing. And it's available to everybody. People shouldn't be uncomfortable. It's either God or, you know, let's be. rejected. We're at a time. Mario Marillo. God bless you, my friend. Thanks for coming on. Thank you.