The Eric Metaxas Show - The Christian Left and the Charlie Kirk Memorial

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Investigative journalist Megan Basham joins Eric Metaxas to discuss the Charlie Kirk memorial and the response it drew from the Christian left. Together they consider what this moment reveals about the Church, culture, and the profound opportunity for revival in America.

Welcome to the Eric Metaxas show. Would you consider yourself smart, insightful, precocious, astute, clever, wise beyond your years, and good at checking a thesaurus for synonyms? Well, then you've come to the right place. Here now is the handsome, attractive, striking, gorgeous, and quite frankly, breathtaking, Eric Mattaxas! Welcome to Hour 2. We got Megan Basham coming up.

I'm still reeling from the last few days being with so many friends at the Charlie Kirk Memorial, which I will say again, folks, I can't think of a more powerful witness to the Christian faith ever. I know that sounds like hyperbole, but help me figure this out. Like when have we seen anything like it? After 9-11, we had one service at the Bush National Cathedral where they allowed Billy Graham to give a god. sermon. That was it. That was it. The outpouring the other day, the collection of leaders, world leaders in the room. I don't think I've ever, ever, ever seen anything like it. And it's kind of where I think a lot of people get in the memo like, hey, I think this Christianity

thing might be okay. This might be a positive thing. Yeah. Yeah. It would have been one thing to have just one of those people from the cabinet or maybe even two, but it was everyone. Everyone was there. It was extraordinary. I followed some folks that, you know, on Instagram that were there, some influencers. They're, I think more libertarian. I don't think they're of faith, but they escaped Cuba many couple years back. And Charlie Kirk had invited them to a debate, which is obviously something in Cuba that doesn't exist. And they were, touched by the imitation that, you know, they felt, and they live in Arizona, so they felt like they wanted to come and pay their respects to Charlie, and they were so moved by the worship.

They were, they, they, I mean, it looked like there were 300,000 people trying to get in. Obviously, only about a, you know, a third of that could, could make it in. But it was extraordinary to see their coverage and just the sea of humanity that was there. And then, you know, they related some of the conversations that were obviously very respectful that they had with other people there. And they were just very, very touched by it. So God is definitely doing something extraordinary. And Chris, speaking of the worship, there was an ex post.

I forget the account, Ash, somebody. And she identified herself as Jesus curious, which I loved. So she was not a believer at all, but she was curious. And what really grabbed her was the worship. She said, she had such insightful comment. She said, I didn't know people. People could look like that when they joined together in song. It looked like they were connected with each other and connected with something else.

And she went down the list saying how much the music, the worship. And Eric, you were in the room. I mean, Brandon Lake and Chris Tomlin and, gosh, I mean, the biggest names we have, Kerry Job, I think others were there. And this woman summarized the impact that our worship should have every time we gather. Our worship should be transcendent. It should be otherworldly. It should be stunningly beautiful.

And this woman is coming to faith because of what she experienced in the worship. It's beautiful. Well, see, this is the thing. When people see this for the first time, they go, what is this? they don't know what this like what is this this is powerful but why what what is what is happening and I think I mean imagine folks I mean some people music really affects me and I could get this with you know quote unquote secular songs right you know uh Elton John or something like I'm just moved we are made in the image of God so we're moved by art and music and we're created for that so imagine that you're

moved and then you're actually singing to God. And it's real. It's not an idea. You're not singing about God. You're singing to God. It is stunning. It's an amazing emotional thing where this is the right way to order our emotions. You know, there's ecstasy in the right direction. And I have to say that that was part of it. I think that there were a lot of people there, probably Elon Musk and others who thought, what is this? Like, I've heard about God. Like, this is just, who are these people? These are all people I respect, amazing people, uh, who are, who, who are witnessing to God. Like, we've lived in a secular world, ladies and gentlemen, I've lived in a secular world where there's no reference to God. There's no, it's just like it doesn't exist. And so when you're confronted with it, especially in the beauty of

this moment, celebrating the life of this young man who was murdered, You can't help but be touched. And there were there were so many. I have to tell you, I can't even think of the people that I spoke with. Mark Driscoll. I spoke to Mark Driscoll was there. Alyssa Childers. I spoke with her.

Just so many people that everywhere you turned that it was, you know, it is like a foretaste of heaven. It's a beautiful thing. We were hanging out with Billy Hollowell. It was unlike anything that I could remember. But I think that the bottom line is that this is just the beginning. I think there's a move of God happening in this country that the secular left, to say they're not prepared for this, this is their worst nightmare. Of course, it should be the most wonderful thing in the world for them. And some of them are going to say, maybe I missed something.

maybe I was wrong, you know? So one thing I want to say just for clarity, because a lot of people don't get this. It was one of the reasons I love Donald Trump is because he's so honest. And I remember a few years ago at the National Prayer Breakfast, Arthur Brooks, who I just interviewed for Socrates in the studio, was talking about how we're supposed to love our enemies.

And Trump gets up right after he's like, I don't get that. What do you mean love our enemies? It doesn't make any sense. And he's honest about that. Like, I don't get it. And you shouldn't get it. Like apart from God, it's like, it makes no sense. It's like, what do you mean to love enemies?

I want to kill my enemies. I want to defeat my enemy. What do you mean? And the other day it happened again where Trump gets up and he's like, I don't know, I think maybe Erica would tell me I'm supposed to, you know, love my enemy. I hate my enemies. You know, he says it, right? And I love that.

He's honest because most people feel this kind of like religious guilt. Like, well, I guess I should love my enemies, but I don't get it. And it's like, no, you're right to say that's a dumb idea in my mind. Can you explain that to me? Because I don't get it. And I think the church has done a bad job. We speak in this religious language. It is a profound thing.

And to say it like it's simple to get. It's the opposite of simple. It makes no sense on one level. And unless you know you are a sinner, you want to talk about the guy who murdered Charlie oh, he's a sinner? Yeah, yeah, that's correct. But if you don't think you're a sinner, you don't get it. You don't have God's perspective.

God wants you to know that apart from him, you're bad. Apart from him, you do bad stuff. And if you think, well, compared to, if God says, no, no, no, I compare you to Jesus. You lose. You cannot be compared. So unless you see your own guilt and your own need of a Savior, you can't comprehend forgiveness and grace. You cannot.

And so that's part of this beautiful moment to me. is that I think people like, what do you mean love my enemies? What do you mean forgive the killer? Like, how do I, what does that mean? Now, it doesn't mean, you know, you'll let the killer out of jail. It doesn't mean that there's not the wheels of justice. But to have the, to comprehend that I need God's grace. There are a lot of people, they don't get that.

They kind of think, well, I'm pretty good. I do good. All right. Well, according to the Bible, according to God, you don't get. it. God wants you to get it. He wants you to see your own guilt before him, that you have chosen yourself over others, that you have done enough bad that you're guilty. And you're guilty enough that apart from him, you don't get to go to heaven. But then you realize, well, God says, if I accept him by faith and I humble myself, he wants me to be with him in heaven.

So he sends his son into the world to die in my place. What I deserve, I don't get, what Jesus deserves he doesn't get and what he doesn't deserve he gets and he dies on the cross so you don't have to. I mean, this is this is the mind-blowing paradox at the center of Christian faith. And when you get that, it changes everything. And the nation is on the verge of getting this on a level that we've never seen before. It's so powerful. We'll be right back. My Pillow is excited to announce they're having their biggest three-and-one sale ever with a limited edition product, a back-in-stock special and a closed-out deal you won't find anywhere else. My-pillow bed sheets only 2988, any color, any style, any size, even Kings regularly priced at 119-98, now only 2988. Once they're gone, they're gone for good.

Also, my towels are finally back in stock, but not for long. Get a six-piece, my towel set, regularly priced at 69-98, now only 39-98. and for the first and only time get their limited edition premium MyPillows made with Giza Cotton and a designer Guset, Queens 1798, Kings only 1999. Also for a limited time, when your orders over $100, you'll receive free shipping plus $100 in free digital gifts. So go to MyPillow.com today or call 800-9778-3057. Use your promo code for the best offers ever. Quantities are extremely limited. So order now, that's promo code Eric. Mypillow.com. Promocode.com. Eric. Hey, folks, welcome back. It's the Eric McTaxas show. And the reason that you listen to this show, and you should tell everyone you know to listen to this show, is not because of me, the host, Eric in Taxis, but because, like, the particular gifting I have is getting to know amazing people and getting them to be on this program. For example, my guest right now is Megan Basham. Megan,

love to have you on. Thanks for coming back. Thanks. I always love to be here. This is like hanging with buddies. So, it's a good time. It's not like hanging with buddies, it's hanging with buddies, except via Zoom, whatever. But you, look, I follow you very closely on social media and all the stuff you say. And we've just been talking the last hour about this stunning moment in American history. To my mind, it is genuinely unprecedented. I feel like I'm knowledgeable enough about history and I'm old enough to have a perspective that I can say where we are now is, genuinely unprecedented. I can't even think of anything that compares to it. I keep saying that it's like in

9-11. It was like, oh, this big moment. What was the big gospel witness in 9-11? It was like almost nothing. At the National Cathedral, they gave Billy Graham like, oh, okay, we'll let him talk about, you know, Jesus for 30 minutes. That was it. What we saw the other day and what is happening is just astonishing. And I think it's only the beginning. But anyway, what are your thoughts about what we've been seeing. You've been posting a lot of cool stuff. Yeah, it's funny. You're just so riveted on the one hand because of the terrible loss that we feel and the grief that we're all processing. And then at the same time, seeing the beauty and glory that the Lord is bringing out of this. And, you know, I saw the same thing you did. I actually turned in an essay last night,

where I said, I don't think perhaps even since the nation's founding, we've seen an outpouring from our federal officials, I mean, from the president's own cabinet of praise and glory to Jesus Christ, specifically, not to just a vague, generic God. But we heard Marco Rubio lay out a full gospel presentation about- Hey, hey, hey, Marco, what about separation of church and state? What are you crazy? It's so, but this is what I'm saying. It's so funny because you and I know, and many people listen to this program know that this lie, we've all been laboring under the wet blanket of this secular lie that we're not supposed to express our faith. It has nothing to do with the reality and the truth of our founding documents and our

government. But so many Christians have bought this lie and pushed this lie out there. So to see it revealed as a lie and to see Marco Rubio say what he said, I mean, he's one example, but it's just, it's glorious. It's glorious. And Pete Heggseth talking about the blood of Jesus covering our sins. When have you heard that from a federal official at that level? I can't think. Megan, I'm pretty sure he hasn't heard about separation of church and state. He's in big trouble. Pete, you're in big trouble. And I mean, even those, you know, past presidents who were known for being Christian, I never heard anything like that from George W. Bush. I never heard anything like that.

Even from the great Ronald Reagan, I never heard that kind of explicit praise for Jesus Christ. So as I look at this, and I don't know, I'm sure you saw some of the. responses to Eric. I couldn't go to the memorial. So I was cheering you on and praising and praying and in tears at home with my family. But one of the things that allowed me to do was kind of sift through and look at responses as it was going on. And I have a good friend and former colleague who is an atheist who posted, I went to church this weekend because I see what they have and I want to know what they have. What is that? What is that piece? Where does that, you know, miraculous ability of Erica Kirk to forgive her husband's killer. Where does that come from? I saw a Muslim woman

talking about that this memorial, this funeral service honoring Charlie Kirk was like nothing she's ever known in her culture, where she talked about, you know, a Muslim funeral is full of death and fear. And this was something entirely different. It was full of hope and love and life. And so she also was expressing her curiosity towards Christianity saying, I want to know more. about what makes these people like this. I saw, you know, tons of sort of lapsed Christians who haven't been to church in many years saying, I'm going back. So you're seeing this outpouring, and it's tremendous and it's miraculous. And I don't think it goes too far to say, we are seeing revival. We don't know what shape that's going to take yet. But every time you see a revival,

it's always married to sort of turmoil in the culture, political turmoil. And you actually don't see those things come separately, typically, in any society. They usually come hand in hand. And I think we're seeing that. And so, you know, from my vantage point, it's been very interesting to sit back then and see how Christian media that has been squishy in the past has handled the death of Charlie Kirk because nobody can deny that we're seeing this just absolute interest in Christ. We're seeing honoring of Christ all coming from Charlie's life and from his manner of death. And so, you know, a lot of those people, your Christianity today is your gospel coalitions have been in an awkward position in dealing with Charlie Kirk

because he modeled something very different than what they've been preaching for, you know, the last decade or so, this quiet presence where, you know, we're supposed to just sort of through osmosis, influence people to Christ without actually talking about Christ. It's like, yes, we can, we can cringe people into the faith. Right. Right. As we as we cringe in the shadows, people will be led to glory. You know, that's kind of like, you know, that's the, it's the faithful presence. Don't be too loud about that Jesus stuff. That might scare people. But if you cringe quietly and silently, you know, it's so preposterous.

And listen, I've been in the middle of all this stuff, and I have to say that, to be fair, we all, you know, everybody has a point, right? In other words, when somebody says, we know what it looks like to be so bold in your faith that you just scare people away, we've all seen that. We've seen lunatics. you know, screaming on. I remember I used to commute to into the city years ago, and there was some lunatic screaming on Park Avenue with a Bible. If ever anybody did not represent Jesus, that was the guy, right? And so we've seen what it looks like when people in some religious paroxysms are driving

people away from Jesus. We've seen that. But the cringing backward, like, you know, into the shadows, is like, well, if we just say nothing, that obviously is ridiculous. But you and I have really seen people model this as though this is the way forward somehow. Yeah. And so what I'm getting at is that Charlie modeled a very different approach to our policies and our political life based on his faith. So instead of saying, let's not choose a side. Let's be third way somewhere in the middle or outside of politics. and through that we will attract people who don't understand, say, conservative policies like

protection of the unborn or, you know, let's not perform gender transition surgeries on children. If we're not too bold and talking about why those things are evil, then we're going to gain more of a hearing with the unbelieving world. And in their minds, the unbelieving world is always progressive. So we always kind of have to approach them very softly with what we believe. And Charlie did something entirely different. He chose a side. He unashamedly, unembarrassedly says, this is my side.

I choose the conservatives and the GOP because of my Christian values. They're not perfect. No political party is. But I am arguing that we as a society need to choose these values because they're Christian and because they're scriptural and because they're going to lead to the most flourishing in our culture. And so that's why I say, you know, your Christianity days and your gospel coalitions are in a very awkward position because we are seeing in real time the incredible influence of Charlie's boldness, which runs totally a foul of what they've been teaching for the past few years.

And so, you know, the first few days after his death, I watched Christianity today put out this headline that Charlie Kirk died, not assassinated, not martyred, but he just died. And they described him as an activist for the MAGA doctrine. So this headline didn't describe him as a Christian brother, didn't describe him as a martyr, simply described him as a MAGA activist. And you compared that to how they treated George Floyd's death, who they said left a gospel legacy. So George Floyd left a gospel legacy, but Charlie Kirk was a MAGA activist.

So that contrast was glaring. And a lot of people justly were angry. There was a huge backlash against that. And so for the last few days, what I've seen, actually, is Christianity today running some positive stories about Charlie. And specifically noting that his political activism is what allowed him to share the gospel. So, you know, to me, there's been this immediate and abrupt and I think providential reassessment of how we approach an unbelieving world.

And quite frankly, Charlie's method wins. Well, listen, there's no doubt about it. But I also want to be clear, I don't think anybody should ever read Christianity today, folks, just because, you know, they are, they're getting a couple of things right. It's kind of like, you know, ABC, Disney, whatever. We should boycott them into the dust because they are not, you know, unless they completely change, they have been a force for evil. They have been, you know, very wrong.

And they have led people astray. And if it were for them, we'd be under a Kamala Harris presidency. Right. And forget it. I mean, I can't even, I don't know where to begin. But so I think it's important that we understand. that folks like, you know, the gospel-centered movement and the, whatever. They're basically Christian lefties pretending not to be political. They're leftists.

You know, Phil Vischer, David French, down the line, Russell Moore, these are our leftists. When we come back, we'll talk more with Megan Basham. Welcome back. We're talking to Megan Basham, who's with the Daily Wire, I believe. Yeah, yep, that's where I'm at. I know, I know. And you, well, we're talking about how so many people on the left,

they're in this awkward position because there's this outpouring of love for Charlie, you know, and they're trying to get on the bandwagon. They realize how ridiculously unpopular they are. But I feel like, I mean, this is the way I feel about Yale University, Harvard, all these elite institutions, the New York Times. You've been so wrong. You've done so much damage. The idea that, oh, well, you know, we're going to put out a couple of articles or we're going to say a couple of nice things and we're going to get back in your good graces so we can continue to destroy the nation and lives.

I don't think so. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, they're on the dustbin of history and they deserve to be on the dustbin of history. They have been remarkably wrongheaded for a long, long time. No, and I don't disagree with you at all. And I bring this up more to show the power of Charlie's witness that they experienced such a backlash that, you know, they've experienced a lot of backlash in the past from genuine Christians. And that's not surprising. But that my cynical journalist brain went, I think they recognized they had a PR problem here. Because people who didn't know Charlie are suddenly looking at what he said on these college campuses.

They're going back and listening to, you know, these comments that he made that have been taken out of context to suggest that he was. racist or homophobic or misogynist or all of these things. And they're realizing, oh, that wasn't true. We had him wrong. So I think they had a PR problem on their hands. And just to give you another example, the gospel coalition, their immediate article that they put out after Charlie's death characterize it is just sort of a bad thing that happens in a fallen world. So the war in Ukraine, drug dealing and the death of Charlie Kirk, how do we deal with it? So they didn't name what killed Charlie, which is a radical leftist ideology. So they've been very careful not to pin the guilt for this on a particular ideology,

and we need to do that. And so what was interesting to me was to see, like, for example, a TGC editor who a a couple of years ago said, hey, guys, let's not give Charlie Kirk any more clicks. Flash forward to last night praising Charlie Kirk, and people were justly asking, hey, what changed? Why are you today saying, you know, jumping on the bandwagon of he was such a great Christian when just a couple of years ago, you were saying, hey, let's not give him attention. Let's not give him clicks.

And I think it's because they realize their audience is going back and they're now realizing that they were wrong about Charlie Kirk and they were wrong about what he stood for. So I wrote an article last night, hopefully coming out later this afternoon, where I pulled Russell Moore's op-ed from the Washington Post in which he said Donald Trump's MAGA movement is destroying the religious right. It has snuffed out the religious right. And then I sat there and watched that memorial and went, the religious right has never been so strong and so on point and so on fire.

So, you know, this idea that Charlie Kirk and those who support Donald Trump were going to be the death of the religious right has been completely exploded. And, you know, at the same time, I went back and I looked at this report. It was kind of an analysis that the late Tim Kemp, Keller put out where he talked about what would bring revival. So Tim Keller believed that revival could come and he sort of laid out who he thought would be responsible for that revival. He put Trump supporters outside the bounds of those who would be helpful in bringing about revival. Now, I want you to think about that and then think about what we saw at that memorial. I have never seen anything like that.

I know of nothing like that in American history. It's not. Right. And that revival is coming from people. who were unabashedly conservative, who unabashedly said, Donald Trump is not perfect. But when I as a Christian look at whose platform is more aligned with scripture and what God would ask for us to do justice and to love mercy, this side of the aisle is clearly far more aligned. This particular presidential candidate is far more aligned. And so they supported him. Now, listen, I mean, actually, a perfect example of that.

is, I mean, if you want proof that Donald Trump is just human and that he's flawed, his speech at the end of this the other day, like, was just kind of tone deaf and kind of whatever, you know, and, and I, nobody loves him more than I do. Like, I just love this president, but why do I love him? Because look at his cabinet. Donald Trump, you know, the, the, the thrice married New York real estate developer, billionaire, he, has put together a cabinet of fire-breathing, born-again Christians who go out in public and talk about their faith, that's the legacy of Donald Trump. I mean, you want to look at, let's look at the quote-unquote evangelical Christian Jimmy Carter's cabinet. Let's look at the cabinet of George W. Bush.

There's no contest. And so I'm just laughing because I think to myself, people who, who want to criticize Trump. Look, look at the cabinet he has put together. I mean, we have Tulsi Gabbard quoting Corinthians. Right. We have RFK Jr. Who, you know, he's paling around with Larry David. And, you know, he's part of the Kennedy family or whatever.

He is giving the most clear expression of Christian faith. This is a, it's like the mic drop moment in history. We've never, we've never seen anything even close to this. Megan, that's what's amazing to me. I can't think of anything that compares to what we've seen. And when you talk about the left being embarrassed, I mean, they've gotten it so wrong. But usually you don't get to see that. Usually you don't get to see how dramatically wrong people get it.

It's like 100 years later, people like, well, yeah, they got it wrong. We are seeing that now in a way that is just, again, it is, it's unprecedented. And they are scrambling to figure out what do we do with this new information? evidently Charlie Kirk, he was very, very powerful witness for the faith. He didn't drive people away from the faith. Huh, that's like we've spent 30 years banking on, you know, betting on the other horse. Right. We'll be right back talking to Megan Basham. Welcome back. We're talking to Megan, you know, when you talked about people rethinking things, like you said that, you know, you had a, maybe an atheist friend or whatever, they're kind of watching Charlie Kirk. They're trying

to think. I remember this happened to me in 1987 and 88. I was away from my, you know, my Yale buddies. I was living with my parents kind of trying to figure out life, really lost. And all alone, you know, I'm turning on the TV. And I remember watching the Bork hearings. And I at that point would have thought of myself as a liberal Democrat. But all alone, as I'm watching the Bork hearings, without anybody to tell me what to think, I thought, this guy is not what.

they made him out to be. And the people attacking him, you know, Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, whatever, they were nasty. I mean, I was, I'll never forget that moment on by myself kind of thinking, I think I've made a mistake. I think I bet on the wrong horse here. Like when I'm able to actually look at them and see, hear what they say for themselves, I don't side with that group. I'm more inclined aside with that group. And I think now as people are actually hearing what Charlie Kirk said, they are thinking, whoa, I think I bought another narrative. And now that I actually see the facts, so there's a lot of rethinking going on in America right now. And this is really the beginning of revival, is all these people feeling like, you know what, I think I was lied to. I don't think

it's true that he's hateful and that he's racist and he's I mean I keep saying imagine Stephen king saying I mean ladies and gentlemen Stephen king actually believes he said that Charlie Kirk wanted gays to be stoned to death he puts this out on social media you want to talk about a bubble he's in such a bubble that he actually believe that and he puts it out there and and and rosy O'Donald retweets it like these people believe I feel sorry I'm I mean I'm not kidding I feel sorry for these folks, that they are so out of it that they don't really, they don't even have the beginning of a clue of what they're actually talking about. Yeah.

And you saw that with the New York Times, too. You know, they initially put out this. And this is right in the immediate aftermath of his assassination, put out the story, claiming that Charlie had made these terrible anti-Semitic remarks. And then you go and you read them in context, and it turns out what Charlie was doing was reading someone else's terribly anti-Semitic remarks so that he could refute the them and so that he could argue with them. So they had to make that correction. But as I'm sitting back looking at the scene, I feel like something miraculous is happening because, you know, all of

these predictions that we were forever now going to just be trending left and Christians were going to have to find out how to live as sort of the beautiful losers and faithful minority have not panned out. So I think all the people who sort of counted on their careers being built on, you know, being sort of the facilitators of the squishy left Christianity. I don't know what their career plans are now because it feels like those have been destroyed. It felt like as I sat and watched that memorial, I said, this is the final nail in the coffin of this both sides third way Christianity, this inoffensive Christianity. Because what Charlie did was through his boldness, that was winsome and that drew people to

Christ, his being unafraid and unashamed to say, this is what I believe. And because scripture teaches this, this is why I believe it, that actually turned out to be extremely attractive, particularly to young men. So if you look, you know, even just statistically, we can see that, that all of a sudden these young men are coming back to church. And even if it wasn't specifically Charlie Kirk, they didn't hear Charlie Kirk and say, I'm going back to church or I'm interested in these things and these conservative politics and things of the spirit, he has. He has, helped create and facilitate the cultural landscape that facilitated that. So when I look at that, I go, he has so much responsibility for why these young men are back

in church. And these are the same young men, by the way, who, interestingly enough, turned out in droves during the 2024 election to vote for the side that most aligns with biblical priorities. So, you know, Charlie Kirk has completely changed the landscape in his life. He did that, but even much more so in his death. And I think that is what we see when we look at the death of a martyr is that it has completely reshuffled the deck and people are questioning their prior assumptions and their prior prejudices. And so that's what I think is so tremendous here. And, you know, when I look back, I just have to laugh at the idea that Keller and Moore said that, you know, the alignment of conservative politics with Christianity would be the death of revival when in fact we're seeing.

Charlie Kirk, who was no shrinking violet when it came to who he supported politically and what he believed and being MAGA, that he has helped usher in in perhaps a way we've never seen, a revival in this country that is pouring out, I mean, in every corner. I'm seeing it not just, you know, in the red states and in the red state vigils and prayer vigils you would expect, but I'm hearing it from very liberal people, too. And so that's been really encouraging. I don't know if you saw the the Van Jones comment was really moving to me that he said he received this note from Charlie after they had been sort of beefing online and he didn't know it until after Charlie died. And in that he said, Charlie said to Van Jones, let's meet together.

I mean, essentially he was saying, come, let's reason together. That was Charlie to Van Jones and saying, you know, you and I, let's agree disagreeably. Come on my show. I'll come on your show. And it was clear that Van Jones was affected by that. And I don't think that he, you know, that he experiences that much from, from people on his side who say, let's have an open discussion and debate. And so, you know, that's going to be Charlie's legacy. That's going to be the witness that he left us and the model he left us.

And I mean, all I can do is sit back as a Christian and go, thank you, Lord. I'm so thankful for Charlie's life. I'm certainly not thankful for his death. I wish he was still here with us. But I am thankful for how you are using his death to spread your word and, and, and, you know, and raise your glory. You know, a few years ago, it must be seven or eight years ago,

I was on a plane seated next to Van Jones. He didn't know who I was, but I knew who he was. We talked a little bit, but I remember, and this is true folks, he opened his Bible. He was having his quiet time.

There are people that disagree with us on all kinds of issues that are nonetheless earnest. And I think that that's, that's all we can ask for really is that people are just open to being wrong, open to getting things right as we ought to be. I've been wrong on a lot of stuff. And I just, so it does give me hope that there are people on what we think of as the monolithic

left who they're not part of any monolithic left. They are in some ways open to reason. I mean, we see this with a lot of people, whether it's Bill Maher or J.K. Rowling or whatever, they're reality-based enough that they're open to talk or to think. So we're really in a sacred moment in the culture. I don't think we know where this goes. And there is a huge reshuffling of the deck happening right now. We'll be right back talking to Megan Basham.

Welcome back. We're talking to Megan Basham. Megan, you know, it is interesting. You've been talking about the media reaction. on the kind of the Christian left, the third way people that are just non-plussed at what is happening. And I know that many of them are smart enough to feel foolish, that they're missing something. But what I keep saying is that the kind of churches that are, that promulgate that kind of thinking, they are dying.

It's like Jesus cursed the fig tree and it is withering and people are going other places. And so if you're looking for faith, if you're new to faith, don't go to one of these churches that shies away from what Charlie was talking about or says, oh, we don't do politics. Avoid those churches. I'd rather that you stay home and watch something online than you go to a church that is kind of pushing this, these broken, these dead ideas. Yeah. And, you know, some of the other interesting developments in this that I think have been really revealing is you have people like Jamar Tisbee, who is sort of a CRT, social justice activist,

who was very much promoted by the Gospel Coalition, by Christianity today, by so many of these Christian colleges. I know he came and spoke at Wheaton a number of times. He spoke in Grove City's Chapel. And so, you know, during those post-2020 George Floyd death years, everywhere Jamar Tizmi was being promoted, what he said in the last couple of days about Charlie's death has been so horrific.

He basically looked at that memorial and called it a white nationalist celebration, a white supremacist memorial. And when you, and look, these organizations that promoted him should have known that that's who Jamar Tisby was when they were promoting him. And yet they did it anyway, because he was saying outrageous things like that, even back in 2020. He was saying things like white Christians need to come to grips with the fact that, you know, everything they've literally, he said everything they've. learned in church has been colored by white supremacy. So he was an extremist even then, but he was being

promoted by all of these, you know, various Christian media outlets and Christian colleges. And we're talking about very conservative, well-known pastors. We're signing on and promoting Jamar Tisbee. So through Charlie's death and through the response, I mean, very ugly, I'll say demonic response like that, that also has been revealing. I think people have suddenly gone, who were you promoting to me? You told me to buy that man's book. And he's saying that an outpouring of honor to Jesus Christ by our political leaders is white supremacy. So I think in a really good way, that's also been revealing and enlightening for people because suddenly they've gone, these were not the thoughtful Christian voices that I was told.

These are just leftists. And it's now obvious in a way it never has been before. Well, that's the thing. So we're living at a moment. And again, it's hard to imagine how this plays out. But I'm just here to tell you, folks, that the Democratic Party and the hard left, they're done. Now, what that looks like, I don't know. But I think if you have any kind of a brain, and let's say you're in corporate America,

you can see which way the wind is blowing. You don't want to be associated with this stuff. And so even when Jimmy Fallon had Greg Gutfeld on, you can see that there's some people in corporate who they probably believe nothing. They probably have no beliefs whatsoever. But they realize like we're dead. Our bottom line, we're going to go away unless we can kind of figure out how to tack a little bit to the center. And I think that so there are people out there with brains that are sort of figuring this out that we're not, this is not working well. for us. What do we do? What do we do? So I think some will survive because they will

pragmatically tack towards some kind of a center. And then there are others that they can't do it. They're in a death spiral. And they are going to, they're just going to, you know, they're pushing the joystick down into the ground. They think that, you know, they're going to, they're going to see their 72 virgins or something. I don't know what they think, where this is headed for them. We're out of time. Megan Basham, we love you. Thanks for coming on today. Thanks for having me, Eric. Thank you.