The Eric Metaxas Show - Thomas Howard (Encore)

Episode Date: July 15, 2023

In this special presentation from Socrates in the City, Eric goes to Boston to talk with scholar Thomas Howard about the questions explored in "Chance or the Dance," the book Eric considers one of the greatest of the 20th century. (Encore)

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. Ladies and gentlemen, we ask you now to count down from 10, silently, if you don't mind. And when you get to one, you'll hear one of the greatest voices on this or any other planet.

Three, two, one. Eric Mattaxas. Hey folks, it's Eric Mattaxas, and I believe each one of us is unique and irreplaceable. And while I believe that is true, if you've got an hour-long TV program like I do, I can tell you the host may be irreplaceable, but the time slot is not. And this is my Socrates in the city conversation with the great Tom Howard at his home. Do not miss it. Hey there, I'm Eric Metaxus.

This is Socrates in the city. We are in a private home. This is the home of Tom and Loveless Howard. Thomas Howard is someone whose books I had the privilege to encounter around 1989, shortly after I had my own conversion to fate. Somebody suggested that I must read this book by Thomas Howard. And I read the book, and it changed my life. He calls the book Chance or the Dance a critique of modern secularism.

But it really puts the medieval Christian worldview against the, the modern secularist idea of the world, but in a way that I've never seen before or since. I've reread the book many times, and I'm convinced it's literally one of the best books written in the 20th century. It's been my privilege to know Tom since 1998. Tom Howard, welcome to Socrates in the city. Thank you. I really get sort of speechless or unable to stop talking around you because we have so much in common and so much you've written has influenced me so dramatically and so deeply. You are hard pressed to own up to that because you are overly humble.

But I'm going to try to have a conversation with you about your life and about your writings. But principally, I want to talk to you about chance or the dance. Of your many great books, my favorite. It's a book that genuinely changed my life when I read it. I think I've told you that. I don't know if you have ever believed it, but I'm just going to keep saying it. And I'm really so excited to have the opportunity to talk to you in general, but specifically, at least initially, specifically about Chance or the Dance. So, why don't I ask you the most basic question of all?

Can you sum up the idea of Chance or the Dance? People say to me, what does that mean? And I tell them. But since you're here, I'd rather that you tell them. Well, I suppose the title touches on an almost limitless topic, namely, is this scene that we're in, this universe, this world, this bit of history and so on. Is it, did it all come about by mere chance, the whole drama of us being human and living in history and so forth, did it all come about by chance? the whole drama of us being human and living in history and so forth, did it all come about by chance, or is it a exquisitely orchestrated drama,

such as you might see, in a formal dance, where the people who know how to dance, it looks free and liberating and exhumors. and so on, but anybody who has ever tried to dance knows that you can do a little bit of stumbling at first, but it ends up looking like a mode of freedom. And I think that would give us a little clue as to how a Christian understands being human. I mean, are we, have we learned the steps of the dance? What are the steps of the dance? You spoke at Socrates in the city right in the beginning of the whole thing. So maybe 2002, I think it was, at the Metropolitan Club

in New York City. And you spoke about Chance of the Dance. And I remember you saying then and before that in a phone call that it all boils down to, does the universe have meaning or not? But the way you put it really was, does the modern secularist version would say that everything happened by chance, Therefore, nothing means anything, which is a horrifying concept. There's no meaning in the universe. Or everything means everything, which is hard to process. But you talk about the medieval Christian view versus the modern secular view. I love the fact that you do come from this kind of medieval approach.

I mean, we're going to talk about C.S. Lewis at some point, but he was a medievalist. But the idea that there was a time when everything meant everything, when you looked at the sun, it wasn't just a ball of gas and that kind of thing. Tell us a little bit about that, where you got these ideas from. Well, I suppose, I mean, these ideas being, I suppose, the way I look at life, existence, the universe, being human. And I suppose unless one is locked inside, the, the rather loosely put together modern view of being human and so forth,

one becomes impressed with increasingly, with the mystery and the wonder and the drama and even the exultation of being human. You know, what is this scene we're in? And did it all just happen? and haggledy-piggledy, just thrust together? Or is it a splendidly orchestrated dance? Well, you make the case so well. The trouble in talking about this great book chants of the dance

is that I never know if I want to talk about what it's about or how you say it. Because your writing in it is so beautiful. And again, I don't want to embarrass you, although I do enjoy embarrassing you, but I don't want to embarrass you. But you're writing, you love words, and it's why I love you, and it's why I love your writing, because you rejoice in the words themselves, but it's always, you know, part of making a point.

You're not just writing free verse to impress people. You're making a point, but you love words. So let me ask you this. Were you always like that when you were a kid? Did you love poetry? Did you love words? Because the words and the prose in Chances Dance is literally unlike anything I've ever read. Well, I suppose so.

For as long as I can remember, I have been intoxicated with words. That's a lot to say that. I just loved it. I mean, I can remember when I was very small in reading, it may have even been a child's version of John Bunyan's progress. Yeah. And I can remember, I think I actually, I can remember walking around saying, he getteth him a grievous crab tree cudgel.

And I was... He getteth him? A grievous crab tree cudgel. A grievous crab tree. I mean, where would you get a more toothsome sentence than that? For example, the word toothsome. Who uses that anymore? Thank you.

I feel like we should have a duck come down when you use the magic word and you get 50 bucks. when you say that, okay, since we have time to cover everything, I want to go to your childhood. Your parents were extraordinary people and your upbringing was an extraordinary upbringing. Can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, you are now a Roman Catholic. You were not raised that way. How are you raised in terms of faith and education? Well, I'm the fifth of six children in the family that I grew up in.

and it was a very Christian household. Where in the country? Essentially Philadelphia. I mean, I actually was born in Philadelphia, and both of my parents were from there. But then when I was very small, they moved to a suburb in New Jersey, Goldmorestown,

and it was a lovely, oldy-worldy Quaker town, and I went to a Quaker school. We weren't Quakers ourselves, but we got used to the Quaker language, I mean, I grew up hearing the they and thou in daily walk, you know. I mean, I would even, with my closest friend, I would speak the Quaker language. Really? With my oldest friend.

I mean, we would just naturally say, I'd say, Joe, how's thee this morning? Or what's they been doing? What's thee been doing? Yeah. That's extraordinary. You know Quakers don't speak that way anymore. At least next to day. What did he?

Really? They don't. Folks, you're listening to a special. edition of the Eric Mataxis radio show. I am interviewing Thomas Howard about his book, Chance of the Dance. This was a Socrates in the city event we did and we're airing it on today's program. Do not miss it. Every day, the parallel economy grows bigger and bigger. It's powered by everyday Americans who are sick and tired of all the woke propaganda being jammed into every product they consume. Big mobile companies are no different. For years, they've been dumping millions

into leftist causes. And we had to take it because you needed a self. phone probably thought there was no alternative, but now there is Patriot Mobile is America's only Christian conservative wireless provider offering dependable nationwide coverage on all three major networks. So you get the best possible service in your area without the woke politics. They're 100% US-based customer service team make switching easy. Keep your phone, keep your number two. Just go to Patriotmobile.com slash metaxus. Patriot mobile.com slash metaxus or call 878. Patriot. Get free activation today with the offer code Metaxus. Ask about their coverage guarantee while you're there.

Get the same dependable service and take a stand for your values. Make the switch today. Patriotmobile.com slash Metaxus or call 878 Patriot. Legacy precious metals has a revolutionary new online platform that allows you to invest in real gold and silver online. In a few easy steps, you can open an account online, select your medals of choice, and choose to have them stored in a vault or ship to your door. You'll have access to a dashboard where you'll have access to a dashboard where you, can track your portfolio growth in real

time anytime. You'll see transparent pricing on each coin and bar. This puts you in complete control of your money. The platform is free to sign up for. Visit LegacyPMinvestments.com and open your account and see this new investing platform for yourself.

Gold can hedge against inflation and against the volatile stock market. A true diversified portfolio isn't just more stocks and bonds, but different asset classes. This new platform allows you to investments in gold and silver, no matter how small or large, with a few clicks, visit LegacyPMinvestments.com.

To get started, you're going to love this free new tool that they've added. Please go check it out today. That's LegacyPMinvestments.com. Folks, you're listening to a special edition of the Eric Metaxus radio show. I am interviewing my friend Thomas Howard about his book, Chance to the Dance. This was a Socrates in the City event we did, and we're airing it on today's program. Do not miss it. I want to hear, I guess most people watching probably don't know that you have a famous, at least one famous sibling.

Can you tell us about Elizabeth Elliott? Yes. Betty, as we called her in the family, is the second oldest of us six children. And it was interesting she and I, in this family of six offspring, she and I had a very intriguing. a very close relationship. She was the second oldest and I was the second youngest. But there was something about the love of words and

all sorts of things. I mean, she's most famous for people who don't know for her book, Gates of Splendor, I guess, is the title? Through Gates of Splendor. About the murder of her husband, tell us about that. Well, she was married to

a chance. named Jim Elliott. They both went to Wheaton College together. As did you. Yes. And he was one of five young American men who in 1956, I think it was, they were in mission work in the Ecuadorian jungle, the Amazonian jungle, and they were trying to make a contact, a friendly contact with a tribe there that are popular. called the Alka's. They called themselves Waurani, but most people know them as the Alka's.

And these five fellows made a very carefully orchestrated and cautious and hesitant attempt to make a friendly contact with them. And they were afraid of all outsiders, even other Indians. This was in the eastern jungle. And to make a long story short, in their attempt to approach the Alka Indians, as they were called, they called themselves Barani. They were all speared to death, these fellows.

They were all killed. Yeah, all five of them. All five. I didn't remember that. And your brother-in-law was one of those five Jim Elliott. Yes. That's, you know, you don't hear very much about missionaries being killed these days. It's sort of like a 19th century British joke.

Yeah. But as recently as 1956, this happened. You obviously remember it well. But your sister Elizabeth Elliott wrote what has become a Christian classic through Gates of Splendor. It's a famous book. Were the rest of your siblings very serious about their faith? And where did your parents get their faith from?

Well, both of my parents were raised in Christian house. where the Christian faith was very front and center. And my father came from a literary line of people. And my mother's family, her father was a businessman in Philadelphia. And my father and mother, when they were the first five years of their marriage, they were in missionary work in Belgium. It wasn't jungles and savages. The first five years of your parents' marriage, they were missionaries in Belgium.

Yes. I've never heard that. That's amazing. Yeah. And this is in the 20s. Yes, it would have been in the 20s. So it was before I was born. But my father was teaching in a Bible school in Brussels.

And they raised the first couple of kids of the six of us in the family by the family. the time I came along, my father had been called back to the U.S. to become the editor of what was then kind of the flagship journal of conservative Protestantism or evangelical Protestantism. The name of the journal, it's defunct now, but it was called the Sunday School Times. So before Christianity today, there was something called the Sunday School Times. I didn't remember that your father was, in fact, the editor of that. That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, pretty big role in evangelicalism in America. Yes, I mean, given that METI, that situation, it was, you know, a prestigious

journal and his position there, you know, had a certain Eclat to it. All right, you get another 50 bucks for using a clot. Thank you, Tom. We're not going to be able to afford this. Mette was close. But that, I didn't know this. Okay, so your family was very serious about its Christian faith. I mean, I sort of knew that, but I don't remember your father's role. When you were, let's say, in high school, did you know that you were in love with language and that you wanted to be a writer and a teacher of literature? I don't know whether I would have defined it that way, but the truth of the matter was, indeed. I absolutely

was intoxicated with words and language. So you were thinking of being a writer, or I can't remember when you began corresponding with C.S. Lewis. Was that after college? Goodness, I hardly remember. It must have been after I'd graduated from college. And your degree in Wheaton was English? Yes. What did you hope to do with an English degree? I have an English degree, and I know it's not easy to... There's no job you can get with an English major. I think, well, it was partly because of the faculty, the chairman of the English,

apartment at the college where I went, Wheaton College in Illinois. Was that Clyde Kilby? Yes. Okay, forgive me. I ought to have mentioned it in the beginning. You dedicate this book, Chance of the Dance, to Clyde Kilby. Yes. So why, why did you dedicate the book to him? Well, my goodness, he was my mentor, my intellectual mentor, and was the icon of a great and noble and profoundly civilized man. and also exhibit A of what a Christian gentleman really is. He was a southerner from Mississippi,

and he could talk like a cracker, but he was a profoundly luminously civilized man. Did you say luminously? Yes. Not numinously. Well, maybe numinously as well, but luminously as well. I figure with you I might as well ask because it could be either. Okay, so he, so he,

obviously was important to you. I ought to have known that since you dedicate the book to him. Look, you've written so many wonderful books. But as I say, to my mind, most of what you say is summed up in Enchance or the Dance. There's something about it that it points to everything else you've become. And, you know, it seems, you wrote it, you were very young. How old were you? It must have been somewhere along there. I can't even remember. I don't, I don't know when I wrote I wonder how old I was. I want to ask you. I think you're correct.

I want to ask you some, some writerly questions. Did it take you long to write? No. I wrote almost as fast as I speak. Okay. I mean, I think this is when I have to say that I resent you deeply. I say. Yeah, deeply.

So you told me this once before, so I think I already knew you were going to say this. But that's an amazing thing, because the book seems almost like poetry. It's so beautifully written. balanced and organized, but you have said that to me before, that you have a facility for writing that way. It's an amazing gift. Are you aware that it's a rare gift? Well, people have said so, but I, you know, if you're the piece of merchandise yourself, you don't know what it's like being a dishrag. I mean, there you are. Yeah, there you are. Here you are. It's a big deal, though, because there's somebody who will read the book, and I hope everyone

will read the book. It's not required reading, by the way. Oh, actually it is. You didn't realize. It's now required reading. But it's, you know, it's short and it's glorious and it's lapidary, and I think that now I get 50 bucks. But it's basically, it's remarkable to hear you say that you wrote it almost effortlessly that that's the way you write. Well, the first book I wrote was one called Christ the Tiger. And Chance of the Dance was a, was a, a convenient phrase or a handy phrase. I had been familiar with it because it is a line from T.S. Eliot

and in one of his poems, he says, was it chants or the dance? Did everything just get flung together? Or was it an exquisitely orchestrated dance? Right. The steps. I mean, what we're in here as human beings, this strange species we belong to,

you know, we're not glow worms and we're not apes, and, you know, we're not peacocks and so on. I think some people wish they were or think they are, but there we are. So it was just a question of, okay, what is this scene we mortals are in, we human mortals? Okay, but you get a lot of what you say in it from the medieval view. So, of course, it makes me think of Lewis. We'll talk about Lewis in a minute, but because I know you met him,

and I want to hear about your time with C.S. Louis. us at his home in Oxford. Folks, you've been listening to my Socrates in the city interview with the great Thomas Howard, the author of Chance or the Dance. I hope you'll keep listening. Tell me why Relief Factor is so successful at lowering or eliminating pain. I'm often asked that question just the other night. I was asked that question.

Well, the owners of Relief Factor tell me they believe our bodies were designed to heal. That's right, designed to heal. And I agree with them. And the doctors who formulated Relief Factor for them select. of the four best ingredients, yes, 100% drug-free ingredients, and each one of them helps your body deal with inflammation. Each of the four ingredients deals with inflammation from a different metabolic pathway. That's the point. So approaching from four different angles may be why so many people find such wonderful relief. If you've got back pain, shoulder, neck, hip, knee, or

foot pain from exercise, they're just getting older. You should order the three-week quick start discounted to only 1995 to see if it'll work for you. It has worked for about 70% of the half a million people who've tried it and have ordered more on one of them. Go to Relieffactor.com or call 800 for Relief to find out about this offer. Feel the difference. Hey, folks, you know how much I love Mike Lindell well. Right now, My Pillow has a massive close-out sale happening on their all-season slippers.

Listeners continually make the MySlippers the number one selling my pillow product. And I have a feeling you want to stock up right now when you hear the offer. When you use my promo code Eric, you'll get the all-season slippers for $25, regularly 149.98. That's over $120 in savings, limited to 10 pairs at checkout. These will sell out. Trust me, my slippers have an exclusive four layer design. You won't find any other slipper. Paddened layers make these slippers ultra-comfortable and extremely durable.

They help relieve stress on your feet, and you can wear them anytime, anywhere. They also come in a ton of additional sizes and all new colors. Just go to Mypillow.com, click on the radio podcast. square to grab a pair of the all-season slippers for $25. Limited to 10 pairs at checkout. Enter promo code Eric or call 800-978-3057, 800-9757 for this incredible offer. So please order now. We return now to a special Eric Metaxus radio show Socrates in the City presentation of my interview with Thomas Howard about his book, Chance or the Dance.

Have a listen. That medieval view, talk a little bit about that medieval view, the idea that it's a dance. There's something particularly medieval about that idea because we think of a certain kind of dance. I think in the book you referred to the frog or the, you know, or the, you know, like, because he wrote it in 1969. But the point is that when we think of dance today, it's a little bit different from when we think of medieval dance, which is orchestrated. And the whole book is filled with those ideas, the idea of the lion as a king. Actually, one of my favorite parts of the book that I can never get out of my head,

how do you pronounce the dog, the Knopf dog, Borzoy? Albert Knopf, and Borzoy. Borzoy. So there's a chapter, I think it's called, of dishrags and borzoi. And you talk about seeing a borzoi in Washington Square Park.

You lived in New York City. I will never get that out of my mind. Can you talk about that, what the Borzoi represented? Well, if you've ever seen, It's like an Afghan hound or a Russian wolfhound. I mean, it's a large, slender dog. And you realize you can't just chuck a borsoy under the chin.

I mean, there's something awesome about a borsoy. Or most people know it as a Russian wolfhound or an Afghan hound. There's something regal. Regal. That's a perfect word. I probably got it from your book. Yeah. Well.

Prince Lee. I had never thought of that before. That, you know, you're making the case. that this is not incidental that this dog has this princely mean or gait, that there's something about that dog that points to the idea of royalty. It's not incidental. It's not just a quirk. It's not a random mutation that led to it looking like this.

And you make the point that that matters. Yeah. I mean, he was made that. that way. And you use the word regal. There is something regal about a borzoi. You realize you feel as though there's a certain mystery or solemnity about, you know, he's not a little puppy wagging his tail, this kind of thing. You feel as though he's, you know, he's in control here or something, this, this, this, this, this, this, there are awesome dogs, you know, and that word has become ruin now.

You know, it's awesome, man. Right. But, you know, but he's really, they really are awesome. They seem to float along. What is particularly striking is once you acknowledge that, or once the reader acknowledges it, you say, yes, yes, that's true, that's true. But then you go on to say, God intended this, that in creation, he has given us parts of himself and different images and things.

It's not random. I think you talk, I don't know if you talk about hyenas skulking around or I, sometimes these things are my glosses on something I've read. But, you know, in explaining your book, I say, look at a hyena. Why is a hyena, why would we say skulking? And why do we imply that that's pejorative? Why do we, why is that pejorative to skulk, whereas to float, you know, across the Russian step like a borzoi is somehow beautiful and positive? I mean, I've never thought about any of that until I read your book. Well, I suppose it's a way of thinking, isn't it?

Yes. The way of looking at existence, life, the whole show, as C.S. Lewis called it. You know, what, I mean, what is a borzoi as opposed to a little wiggly-wagly doxon or something, whom I like very much of the doxons? I mean, they have their own regality. but I think to be a Christian in one sense, you've got the whole drama, the whole cast of characters arrayed before you in being human and living life on this earth and so on.

You've got cues and clues to the nature of the dance, which was the old word that they used to use, meaning what C.S. Lewis calls the whole show. You know, it's orchestrated. You said that twice now. I've never heard that Lewis calls the cosmos, the great dance, the whole show.

The whole show. That's the phrase he uses. I'd say the whole shebang. But he... Well, so he... Well, inevitably we get to Lewis because I can't help... When I think of you, I think of Lewis because I feel like you're...

It's a very long leap. Yeah, typically... typical of Tom Howard to speak a lie like that. You, uh, it's an extremely short leap. You're practically connected at the hip. You're almost Siamese, literarily speaking. You, uh, your book reminds me so much of Lewis. It's very different, but it comes right out of his worldview.

So it's hard for me to divorce Chance or the Dance from Lewis's Oove because I, I guess maybe this is the time to ask you. Was it his writing and your study? under Clyde Kilby at Wheaton that helped you to begin to see this view of the universe? Oh, I think there's no question. There's no question that, I guess my outlook, my Veltan Shau, my world and life view was profoundly shaped by my parents in the household to grow up in, and next to my parents, I guess it would be C.S. Lewis's work. I went to see him one time, and he himself was sort of the living icon of what you see in here.

his works. This is My Socrates in the city conversation with the great Tom Howard at his home. Do not miss it. Nefarious. The number one movie at SalemNow.com is available to rent today. Nefarious is like a modern-day screw tape letter's ripping back the curtain on evil. Pastor Jack Hibb says the movie captures what is going on today in America. Jim Caviesel, who played Jesus in the Passion of the Christ, loves this movie so much. He watched it three times in just five days and says it's one of the most important films of the last decade. Matt Walsh, the filmmaker behind what is a calls it excellent. Dinesh D'Souza calls it captivating, suspenseful, and profound. Father Martins from The Exorcist Files calls it excellent. You've probably heard friends talk about Nefarious because it's

that good. Sean Patrick Flannery and Jordan Belfy give Oscar-level performances in this movie based on the book by Steve Days. You don't want to miss Nefarious. The movie is the anti-woke antidote to Hollywood. The woke critics hated it, but audiences loved it giving it a 96% approval. What movie gets 96% approval? Visit salemnow.com or your favorite video platform to rent it today, even though it's still in theaters. If you want to rent it for your church or large group, visit movienight.com to rent it today or go to Salem now.com. Folks, you've been listening to my Socrates in the city interview with the great Thomas

Howard, the author of Chance or the Dance. I hope you'll keep listening. What did it feel like to meet the man who had written these books that had so affected you? Well, we had corresponded. I mean, I wrote him out of the blue. I didn't just want to land at his front door. Sure.

So I wrote, would it be okay if I just. just popped in for a little bit some afternoon. And, you know, he acted as, oh, what could be nicer, you know, come, by all means, you know, come up, blah, blah, blah. Here's the train you take, and you walk up to my house at the kilns. And so I did. And we went in, you know, he came to the door, and the first thing he said was Mr. Hallard. You know, and we were off and running. It wasn't a long conversation.

Maybe, I don't know whether it was three quarters of an hour or something or less, but I, because I didn't. want to, you know, presume on his time, for heaven's sakes. I'll bet you he enjoyed talking to you, but that's a whole story. Well, that's an assumption. That's a presumption. Did he look healthy? He only lived two years more after that. Yeah, right.

No, he did. He had a rubicund face and hearty and somewhat tubby. And, no, he looked perfectly fine. Yeah. It wasn't too long after that that he died. Yeah. But, you know, he just took me into a little, whatever. the room was where there was a study or a little side part. It's still there. I mean, it's amazing,

but they've gotten rid of the smoke stains and the blackout curtains from World War II. Do you remember any books from your childhood? You mentioned being very, very young and reading John Bunyan's... Pilgrim's Progress. Do you remember other books? Because whenever I read your stuff, and Chance of the dance is filled with, you know, these oblique references to nursery rhymes and things. Did your parents read to you? Oh, yes. Yeah, both our father and our mother read to us probably every evening before they put us together.

There were six of us children. Yeah. So, but that was the usual pattern when it was time for one to go to bed. You know, we would go upstairs and wash and get into our pajamas. And then, you know, at different points in the evening, according to our age. and then one either our father or mother would read to us from some good book back then there's a line in chance of the dance which i think i quote in the new forward that i've been privileged to write um but about something i think you write don't expect to find cosmic order

in goosey goosey gander or something like that and another place you refer to we willie winky And you pepper your writing with, you know, quotations from the most sophisticated, elegant sources mixed in with that kind of stuff. Like we really winky. Like we willie winky. And I think that's why I find you're writing so delightful because you're clearly having fun thinking about these things. I don't know if you're conscious of that or if that's just what you do. Well, I don't think it's a question of so much. Am I saying, oh, hey, I'm sitting here having fun.

The point was I was sitting there having fun. not thinking about sitting there and having fun. So what is that? Are you looking along the sunbeam? Yes, probably. Something like that. Right. Yeah, there was nothing I liked better than reading, something, something enchanting.

Right. Yeah. The Assyrian, what is the line, the Assyrian? The Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold and his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold. The first two lines aligned by, oh, good gracious. Yeah, who? Who? Who?

through, shall I? I think it's words worth. Say it again, the Assyrian. The Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold, and his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold. They're like, I have to look back and... That lights some people up. I mean, that lights me up, it lights you up, and I'm assuming most of the people listening to this. But, I mean, you quote things like that in Chance of the Dance, and it makes one want to read. You know, it makes me want to look up those poems and things like that. But you're...

I mean, I know you taught prep school for many, many years. years, and I imagine, I think of you as sort of the ideal professor or teacher, because you're filled with these things. You don't have to prepare a lesson plan in a sense that it just comes out of you. But I guess, as you said, that when you were little, this was already something, you were intoxicated, as you said, with words. Oh, yeah. I would, at that age or this age, still, you know, I would rather read than do almost anything else. And I can remember, was it third or fourth grade or something, and the teacher in the early afternoon gave us a choice

that the class, you know, shall I read a story to hear, or would you like to, it was something like cut out Valentine's or something. And the whole class was the only one saying, no, let's have a story. Right. You were the bad kid, obviously. You've not written fiction, though. No. Have you ever aspired to write fiction? Not seriously.

it might be because I have maybe a few times I thought that I might try my hand at a story. And I can't write a story. I have great difficulty writing, you know, coming up with plots. So I steal plots. For example, you know, a biography of someone's life, the plot is already there. But your prose is so beautiful that it suggests to me that you would have written poetry or fiction. Have you written poetry? I can't write a half line of poetry.

I don't believe you. I don't believe you. But we'll have to. I'll have to be respectful as the host. Okay, at some point, I knew that I would have to bring up the title of one of the chapters of Chance or the dance. It's a shocking three-letter word. It begins with an S. I know there's an E someplace in it, and it ends with an X.

I can't remember the exact word. But in this chapter, you do something so beautiful. You talk about, you know, you know, You know, I would say the divine, how did you know? See, this is your word man. The divine view of this thing that we today call sex about God's idea. And it's so beautiful to me that you do that. It comes out of, you know, everything else. Everything is connected to it. But writing that in 1969 was a pretty dramatic departure from, you know, the cultural norm. Folks, you're listening to a special edition of the Eric Metaxus radio show. I am interested. interviewing Thomas Howard about his book, Chance or the Dance, this was a Socrates in the city event we did and we're airing it on today's program. Do not miss it. We return now to a special Eric Metaxus radio show Socrates in the city presentation of my interview with Thomas Howard

about his book, Chance or the Dance. Have a listen. Sex as an oddity in a way. I mean, great Scott, dogs do this, you know, turtles do this, I suppose. I mean, for real. I'll take your word for it. I've tried to look away whenever turtles lean in that direction. I'm basically a mid-Victorian, and I avert my eyes when anything is going on, dogs or whatever. But so it's an oddity, you say, and it is an oddity.

Yes, because if you think, I mean, if you think of us with our intellect, you know, our luminescent intellect and so forth, you know, what a crummy and humiliating drama that is. What are they doing? You know, it's not particularly cerebral and so on. We like to think of ourselves as dignified and intellect.

You know, this is down making point. But you talk about how it's a picture of, you know, I don't know if you say this literally, but you know, you're getting to the idea that it's a picture of Christ being united

in marriage with his bride. It's this glorious, eternal image, and we become bearers of that image. And you don't hear people talk about that very much these days. Well, you just said it very well. I mean, that's the problem. I've read your book so many times that I maybe know it as well as you do. How many books, do you remember how many books you've written? No, I haven't any idea, but it's not because I've written dozens and dozens and have never counted them. I don't think it's more than five. I don't Say, only you, only you would be so self-abnegating as to not remember the number. But you kill me.

You crack me up. I can say that you've written more than that. I know. Maybe the archivist in the back of the room has an idea. She's holding up eight or nine fingers. And you've written, but you've written innumerable essays. You have written so many essays in so many publications over the years. Are they collected?

Does anybody mean to collect them? Does your daughter, Galley? My wife is nodding, yes. That's right. The night is far spent. You wrote a tremendous book called On Being Catholic, and even the cover is gorgeous. I think it's Giotto.

You know, when you look at the gold and the blue, you have to assume Giotto. Chautto, yeah. But you wrote a book on being Catholic. In our second hour, not now. I want to talk to you about your migration from fundamental. mentalism to Romanism or what can we call it to Catholicism. The ancient church.

As it were, yes, one of the two lungs of what we call the ancient church. You've written a number of, if I can say it with you sitting here, a number of important books that help frame the way people can think about things. As I say, to my mind, chance of the dance is absolutely at the top of the list. and it has framed the way I think about reality. I know you weren't aware when you were writing it that it would have this effect on people, but it's done that for me.

So on behalf of all those who've read it and on behalf of all of those who will read it, now that I told them it's required reading it, and it is legally. I just hate to be the bearer of that kind of news, but legally you do have to read it. If you want to get into heaven. If you want to get into heaven,

or into polite society. I just want to thank you because you cannot imagine the effect that it's had on so many lives. And I even think of the effect that it's had on me and how it's affected people that I've affected because I read it. So it's just a funny thing. I know you didn't think of it when you were writing it.

You just were sitting down and did you type or write longhand? There's a... I type. Do you type legibly? How else can you type? That's a trick question. I wanted to end on a really, menial, unimportant note. And I think I've succeeded. Tom Howard, my friend, I love you, I thank you.

We'll continue the conversation, but that's it for now. Thanks for tuning in. And thank you. Thank you, Eric.