The Eric Metaxas Show - Tim Barton (Encore)

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

Tim Barton the head of Wall Builders joins us to discuss his new book The American Story: Building the Republic

Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. Do you like your gravy sick and rich and loaded with creamy mushrooms? If no one was looking, would you chug the whole gravy boat? Chug, chug, chug, chug, chug. Stay tuned. Here comes Mr. Chugg-a-lug-lug himself, Eric Mattaxas. Welcome back. I continue my conversation with General Flynn.

The movie is Flynn. You can go to flinmovie.com. You must. So General Flynn, honestly, it's a stateless. thing. The idea, I mean, it's one thing, you know, most of us know Mitch McConnell is a bum. Most of us know that there are these establishment Republicans, that they're bums. They have no, you know, if you see the film, Mr. Smith goes to Washington, you know, you can see this is what we're dealing with. There are always going to be people that they will sell their souls for power.

But when you mention that Mike Pence went along with this, this is grievous to a lot of people because I think, you know, it's one thing to disagree with somebody. But when we realize that the fix was in, that these people had put their people around Trump in order to get rid of you so that they could get rid of him, it's very, very ugly. So obviously what happened with you was this lie. This starts this whole Russia collusion, this whole hoax that, oh, here's the narrative we're going to go with. Donald Trump's team is working with Russia. I mean, it's so stupid that it would be comedy, except they pushed this harder than anyone has ever pushed anything in our nation, this lie. And they pushed it for years. and your utterly innocent conversation with a Russian ambassador was Exhibit A for them to push the lie.

Yeah. And in the movie, we actually show the actual transcripts of the conversations that I had with the Russian ambassador so people can go there. One of the other things, too, and I'll bring it up here, because we did talk about this in other parts of our filming when we filmed this movie. You just didn't, this piece didn't make it in, but I'll bring it up on your show. The agent, the lead agent for Crossfire Hurricane, which was the name of the entire Russia Gate thing, right? His name was Barnett and Barnett, B-A-R-N-E-T-T, and people can go look up, Barnett, FBI agent, 302, and it's online. You can go find it in September of 2020. So I'm jumping a little bit ahead of in terms of a timeline.

But Agent Barnett, it's roughly a nine-page 302, a nine-page deposition, he actually talks about the idea of get Flynn to get Trump in that, in September of 2020 is when he brings that up. Now, this is a guy that was picking me up every single day as the lead agent for Crossfire Hurricane when I was, quote, unquote, cooperating with the government, you know, to figure something out, right? I mean, because I said, I'll cooperate, right? I mean, I don't know what I was cooperating on because they, you know,

because I did decide to plead guilty because I did it in order to protect my son, period. So the egregiousness of what we're talking about and the lies that were perpetrated against the American people, you know, and now what we see is what we see happening to President Trump, I mean, this is a continuation of that meeting on the 5th of January 2017 that was. was led by Barack Obama. This is a continuation of this. You can call it a revolution, a color revolution. I don't care what you call it. It is a coup against the United States of America, against the people of the United States of America by the Obama administration and by President Obama himself with his vice president at the time, Joe Biden, who is now the president,

against the Trump administration and to keep Trump from being able to stay in power or to come back into power as president of the United States. And it's all, designed to continue to control the levers of power within our government. This is, it's so bad. And, and, you know, so I could have gone away from all this. I could have walked away from this, Eric, and to your great audience. You know, I could have walked away from all of this. I could have retired out of the military, but I felt so compelled because I saw, you know, I'm a guy who studies a lot of things, and I saw what was happening. I just didn't realize the depth of corruption in our government. I frankly did not. I did not know it was going to be this bad when I walked

into the White House. And I find out when I walk into the White House, oh, my God. And then, of course, everything unravels for me. And I find myself in this situation. And I had to fight tooth and nail to get out of it where my case was eventually dismissed. And then a judge grabs a hold of me. And all this, we talk about in the film itself. But what I want people and I want your audience to understand is that we have a responsibility as senior military leaders in this country to tell the truth, period. You don't go and tell a political narrative because if you do, it's going to cost the lives of the great men and women who serve our country. And I'm one of a student of history as well, so I've studied our wars. I know what the sacrifices have been, you know, for many, many years in our country's storied history of people who have given the ultimate measure of devotion in the cause of freedom.

And here we are, and we're now fighting to retain that freedom. We are fighting for this freedom back. I mean, it's undeniable what it is that we're facing. And frankly, sadly, you know, in a guy like me who never thought that I was going to be at the fulcrum of his. history, you know, because of having a great military career and growing up, you know, growing up as a kid in a, in a, in a, in really a poor Irish family, and I got to the level I got to. And then all of a sudden I find myself in this position. I'm like, you know, so my bottom line is that this is, this is evil. We are facing evil. And one thing about the, the long arc of history is that good

always prevails. But it takes. It takes champions. It takes. It takes leadership. It takes, you know, a grit that only the American people have. And in order for us to continue to have this beautiful experiment in democracy called the Constitutional Republic, the United States of America, we're going to have to get ourselves out of bed a little bit earlier every morning now as we go into this final, whatever it is, 150 days or so to November 5th. And we're going to have to be involved at every single level in order to win this country back. And once we win this country back, then even more work is cut out. The work then begins again.

Well, you and I were talking about this when we were together in Georgia, that Trump has to win. And the left will do literally anything. They would really love to put a bullet in his head, but they're not going to be able to do that. But they might try. They'll do anything. They'll start World War III. They will do anything because they do not care whether people die, whether the country goes under,

they just want power. That's all they care about. And so you know and I know they can and will do anything to prevent him getting back in. But if he does get back in, by the grace of God, that's the starting line. We have a lot of work to do.

Do you have a sense, because we just got a minute or so left, do you have a sense that Trump, if he gets in, knows what is at stake and will put the right people in place to gut this deep stake? Yes, I do have a sense, and I do believe that he has learned an awful lot, I mean an awful lot. And I know that he realizes that the people that he brings into his inner circle going back into the White House have to be really dedicated patriots who have not only his objectives and what he wants to accomplish, but are also people who are prepared and ready to do the necessary functions of God. government and to hold people accountable. I mean, we have to have one standard of justice in this

country, and people are going to need to be held accountable. And we're going to have to run this government and the functions of government so to get us back up to being that true North Star, that beacon of light for the rest of the world, and frankly, for the American people to see as hope and to be inspired by it. That's what we need right now, because, you know, the way the way the country is going. I mean, people feel, and it's undeniable what is happening to our country. So, yeah, Trump realizes it. He knows what he's got to do, and he's fully prepared to do it. And the question is, ladies and gentlemen, in this audience, what are you going to do? There are little things you can do. There are big things you can do. One thing I beg you to do, see this film, share it with your friends,

Flynnmovie.com. We've got to get the word out. Americans need to understand what has happened. If you don't know what happened, you can't be part of the solution. General Flynn, a great honor to have you. God bless you. Thank you, Eric, so much. God bless to you and your great, great audience. Thank you. Hey, folks, welcome back.

It is my privilege to have back on the show, Tim Barton, who is the head of wall builders. Certainly, you've heard of wall builders. If you hadn't until now, congratulations, you've got a lot to look forward to. Wall Builders, they are heroes. David Barton, of course, Tim Barton's dad, who started it. Tim Barton, welcome back. Thank you so much. Good to be with you.

For my audience, because you've got a book out, I want to talk about the brand new book, but for those in my audience who don't know what Wall Builders is, could you talk about that for a moment? Absolutely. Our main focus is to teach American history and work to restore a biblical foundation. We have what's considered the largest private collection of original documents for American history. We have over 100,000 things. largely from before 1812. So we have actual writings, letters, journals from George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, any founding father you can name. We have some of their writings,

and we just spend time going through their writings and ultimately in American culture today trying to preserve the declaration, constitution, the Bill of Rights, preserve American liberties, but helping Americans remember where we came from and what the founding fathers is trying to accomplish, what America was all about, the American dream, the American ideology, all the things that are under attack today seemingly from people who want to destroy and eradicate what America was founded and intended to be. And so, at Wall Builders, we work to restore those things by helping educate Americans and going back to that biblical foundation that made America so unique and successful.

When did your dad David Barton start Wall Builders? It was back in the 80s. I think 1987, 1988 is when he got started. And actually it was really an investigation. into the Supreme Court decision from 62 and 63 where Abington Shemp, Murray-Kirlet, where they said that really we shouldn't have the Bible in schools. The year before, they said no prayer in schools. And what they had said was the founding fathers never intended for the Bible or prayer

to be in schools because they wanted there to be a separation of church and state. My dad asked at the time when we would have said it was a Holy Spirit-led question, but really a logical question of if the founding fathers didn't want. want Bible or prayer in schools, why didn't they take it out when they were in charge? And of course, they didn't. And it's because they are the ones who worked who put the Bible in schools, who wanted there to be that biblical Christian foundation, because they knew the way that freedom could thrive in America, the way the republic could exist and maintain and actually grow and be strong, would be if there was a proper moral foundation. And they knew there's no greater morals than those outlined in the

Bible, which is why every founding father, even the ones who we could, argue maybe we're not Christians, they still advocated for the morals taught by Jesus, the morals outlined in the Bible. And so as my dad began to discover some of this information, it contradicted everything he had learned growing up. And he just began sharing it with people. And it was very informative to them as well, because everybody had, in his generation, largely received the same bad public school education that the founding fathers were irreligious. They wanted a separation church and state, they were a bunch of immoral people. They really maybe weren't the honorable people that they'd been led to believe. And as he started this journey through studying American history

with original documents, not just what some professor, some academic had written in the last 10 years, he said, let's go back and read their actual writings. The journey started more than 30 years ago. And now we have this incredible collection and we're able to tell a lot of stories that Americans don't know. And certainly it's a different narrative than what's being promoted to the rising generation today. And the website is wallbuilders.com? Yes, sir. Well, I have to say, you know, I want to talk to you about the new book, but it's fascinating just hearing you talk about this because a lot of people aren't clear on how it happened that we got to where we are today. And I am really of your father's generation where I remember that we were taught the wrong

definition of the separation, you know, the wall between church and state. Now, there was the whole idea of separation of church and state was the idea was to protect the church from authoritarian government. And so this has been twisted over time. The secular narrative has come out. And you had people, it started on some level in the 60s, where they decided, okay, we've got to take the Bible out of schools. We've got to take prayer out of schools. That is simply, wrong. It's a misunderstanding of the founders. The founders wanted to protect the church from the state. So that's the famous line in Lincoln's, sorry, in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist. As we are talking, Tim, I am in Danbury, Connecticut. This is where I grew up. And I couldn't be

prouder to come from Danbury, Connecticut to be here today because it was a letter to the Danbury Baptist Thomas Jefferson, obviously writing a letter. This was not in one of the founding documents, but he uses the phrase, this wall, the separating church and state, and how that's been misinterpreted and twisted. And it leads us to, you know, in the 80s before your dad founded wall builders, Richard John Newhouse wrote a book in 1984, The Naked Public Square, because he understood that this is what is happening,

that you have this false view that says, we've got to take God, we've got to take Christian values out of the public square, out of our schools. And what he was saying is like, no, then you get the naked public square. And when you have the naked public square, what comes in, what fills the vacuum, every kind of evil. So the founders never, never intended this. But it takes decades of drifting in the wrong direction before folks like Richard John Newhouse and your dad, David Barton, step up and correct it. and your dad has spent decades correcting this. And it's just a joy to know that you, Tim, his son are taking on the leadership.

Because there are so many Americans that still don't understand this. It's why I'm going through this with you right now. Because I think that there are many people that they have some vague ideas about separation of church and state. They don't really understand what is at stake and how this has been twisted. So, folks, if you remember nothing, remember that this concept of separation of church and state was to protect the church from the state, not to rip churches and Christian people out of influencing the state and politics. That's just an absolute horrible misunderstanding. And Eric, can I jump in right there and add something to that as well? So one of the things

that's important to understand is the founding fathers believed in separate institutions, but not secular institutions, right? Because this is where some people would argue, no, they really wanted to separate the two. Well, no, they wanted separate institutions. but that's because they had come from England. And under the King of England, he was also the head of the Church of England, the Anglican Church. And so they said, look, we don't want the government controlling the church, controlling religion, which, by the way, for those paying attention, that's what happened in a lot

of places during COVID, where you had governors controlling the churches saying who could meet and where they could meet and how they could meet. And that's what the founding father said, no, we want separate institutions. so our government, our political leaders can never come in control our religious beliefs, but their idea was never to secularize the government and to give a couple of really easy examples. When the founding fathers first come together during the American Revolution, it was a Continental Congress. One of the very first acts of the Continental Congress is they call the nation to a time of prayer and fasting. Now that this is all the Founding Fathers and they're working on becoming a separate nation.

will they do that in the spring? And then that fall, they call for a day, a national day of prayer and Thanksgiving. The following spring, they call for a day of prayer and fasting. That Thanksgiving, or that fall, they call for a day of prayer and Thanksgiving. This happened 13 times during the American Revolution alone. And this was a practice that was consistent from every single founding father who was a governor of a state. They did prayer proclamations calling on their state to times of prayer and fasting. And at other times, prayer and Thanksgiving, by 1815, there had been more than 14. 100 official government calls to prayer and either fasting or prayer and Thanksgiving, but days of prayer. And so for those that think, no, the founding fathers didn't want religion in government,

if they were these secular men, they're accused of today and they didn't want God to be in government, then why did they pray all the time from their government positions and government capacity calling on their states or on the nation as a whole? Because we had presidents do this as well. This is where there's such a misnomer that the founding fathers wanted us to be secular. It's totally contradictory, not only to the example they said in their lives, but then you can go to someone like George Washington in his farewell address, where he says that the pillars of our political prosperity are religion and morality. And that's when he's leaving office the following year. John Adams is president. He writes a letter where he says that our

constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It's wholly inadequate to the government of any other. They knew without religion, without the morals that come from religion, our nation would never works. Their idea was not to secularize America, but it was to make sure that government could never control our religious belief or practices, but not to say that we couldn't have God in government, just that government couldn't be the leaders of our church, of our faith, and our doctrine. More and more people are waking up to the truth here, thanks to you, Tim Barton, and your dad, David Barton, and wall builders, because many of us have just, you know, you kind of blithely drift along, drinking the Kool-Aid, the secular Kool-Aid, and buying a lot of the lies without

realizing that they are lies and realizing that you're helping to destroy America and American Liberty by going along with them. So we're going to continue our conversation with Tim Barton of Wall Builders. His new book is The American Story. I wrote about this subject in my book, If You Can Keep It, the Forgotten Promise of American Liberty. And when I discovered it, when I wrote the book, if you can keep it. I was myself astonished at what I had not understood before. And so I wrote the book, if you can keep it, and I want to give it free to every American. I wish I could because we really have to get this right. We have to be a part of the solution. When we come back, we'll talk more to Tim Barton. Don't go away. Welcome back, folks. I'm talking to Tim Barton of Wall Builders. You've got to

check out Wall Builders.com. Please do. What an amazing resource. So Tim, you guys have written a new book called The American Story of Building the Republic. Is that the subtitle? Yes, sir, it is. Let's talk about that. The book just came out, The American Story. So what is in this book, The American Story? Well, this is part two of a series.

So if people are looking for the American story, they might find the first one, the American story, the beginnings. And we really are trying to reteach Americans the history of America because we recognize the failure of our modern education system. And it's failing in lots of. of ways, but we focus on American history, and we recognize that people that should be honored, that should be appreciated, that should be celebrated, we have done such a bad job in modern education that instead of appreciating George Washington, instead of celebrating people like that,

we saw just a couple of years ago when people were tearing down the statues of George Washington, of Abraham Lincoln, of Frederick Douglass, they're tearing down, they're defacing, destroying statues of people that we should be appreciating. We should be thanking God that he brought people like that into this nation to be the leaders of our nation. And it's not because they were perfect people, but it's because of how God used them to do such incredible things. And so our vision for these books, our heart behind it is we want to reintroduce people to the actual honest stories. Because one of the things, I mean, Eric, you know so well, you're an incredible storyteller. And you have done such a good job.

So many books are very well done. people are hungry for stories. They're hungry for truth. But in modern education, when we, when we go back and we are, you know, quote unquote, teaching American history, really what we're having kids do is memorize names, dates, and places. But even though if we say, do you know who George Washington is to most Americans, they would say, yeah, I know George Washington. But if we ask them, can you tell me a story about George Washington? Most Americans don't know anything about Washington or Adams or Jefferson or Madison. These are names we know, but we don't know their stories. And because we don't know their stories, a lot of times we are believing very false

things about them, even about their character, about their motivations, where they wrote about these things, but we now have a modern perspective. And it's very different from what we used to try to do in teaching history, where we wanted to introduce the readers to who these characters were and tell their story. And this also follows along with the biblical narrative for those that are listening and that are people of faith. If you remember the story of David and Goliath, and maybe some of those listening who aren't people of faith, they might still know this story. But David was the young boy who killed the giant Goliath. Well, if you go and read that in the Bible, if you go to First Samuel and you read the story of David and Goliath, it's interesting in the modern academic perspective, they would

ask questions like, and what year did David kill Goliath? But if you read the Bible, you would not know in what year David killed Goliath because the Bible does not tell us. Why? Because that's not the point of the story. And what's happened in modern education is we've emphasized what should be the least significant details. And we have stopped telling the most important part of what history is. And that's learning the story. So we start with George Washington.

And we go, which the first book goes from Christopher Columbus up through like the constitutional convention, George Washington becoming president, we become a nation. And we also tell some of the abolition movement along the way in the first book because we were writing it when the 1619 project came out and we recognized how dishonest their story was. And so we said, okay, we cannot let them get away with all the lies they're telling because there was a very strong abolition movement in America. In fact, the abolition movement that started in America was a movement that influenced

so much of the work of the abolitionists around the world. When you go to guys like William Warberforce, even in England, it's interesting, he corresponded with many Americans, but even in England, one of the phrases they used, as they're arguing against slavery, against the slave trade, they used the phrase that all men are created equal. Well, guess where they learned that phrase? That's directly from the Declaration of Independence. And yet, most people have no idea that America had an abolition movement or how strong it was, or the fact that every single northern colony had abolished slavery,

prior to 1804, and England didn't abolish slavery until 1833. So America's 30 years in front of when English, at least the northern colonies in America, are 30 years in front of when English did that, but Americans have no idea anyway. We cover some of that in a first book. The second book picks up with George Washington being president, and it goes through Andrew Jackson. And the reason we chose those first seven presidents to really dig deep and tell their stories, all seven of those men were part of the American Revolution.

So all of them knew what America in theory was about, the birth of America as a nation. We're becoming our own constitutional republic, this independent nation. And we track their lives really, again, reintroducing Americans to people that largely should be honored. But just like the Bible does, if you read the story of Abraham or Moses or King David, you're going to see in their life there's good, bad, and ugly in all of their lives because they were just people. They were humans, and God used them in amazing ways, and they were really impressive in how God used them and what they accomplished.

But they're just people. They weren't perfect. And yet, they did some of the most remarkable things that today, again, most Americans might know their names, but don't know their stories. And our point was we want to go back and reintroduce Americans to some of these forgotten stories that are the reason these men should be celebrated. Well, I have to say, you know, I tell this story about myself over and over and over again. I've written all these books. And almost every single one that I've written, when I discover what I'm writing, when it hits me, I'm so ashamed I didn't know it before. And so by the grace of God, I put it in a book.

And then I'm just trying to get other people to read it to get as excited as I am about it. Because when you know these stories, folks, it changes you. The first character, the first man in my book Seven Men is George Washington. If you just read that chapter, you'll be ashamed that you didn't appreciate what an absolutely great. hero this was. Boy, do we owe him. And that's just George Washington. We come back. We'll hear more. The book is The American Story Building the Republic. Tim Barton of Wall Builders is my guest. Come back, folks. It's my privilege and joy to be speaking with Tim Barton. He's the head of wall builders. You need to check it out, wallbuilders.com. Tremendous resource. So the new book is the American

story building the republic. And you said that in this book now, it's the continuation of the American story, part one. you're telling the stories of the first seven presidents, all of whom were of the founding generation. They had lived through the revolution. It's interesting because I think of Abraham Lincoln in 1838 when he gives his speech, he's a young man to the Springfield Young Men's Lyceum. It's one of the greatest speeches I've ever read. And he was a very young man in his late 20s when he gave it.

But he talks about even then, in 1830s, 38, that they're forgetting what the generation that had lived through the revolution, that there are people now alive who don't remember that and the danger of losing that fire, that passion for America, for liberty. He's already saying this in 1838. Nobody understood the founding better than Abraham Lincoln. But it's amazing to me that he is saying this in 1838. We are now, you know, coming up on 200 years after he wrote that. And we have obviously many of us forgotten this. So wall builders, you guys have done a heroic job in bringing these stories to America. And we're talking about the second volume in the American story, building the republic. So who else do you write about in this new book? Well, so one of the things I'd love to point out, one of the individuals we write about is Andrew Jackson.

We finish with him. He's a seventh president. He was a young teenager in the American Revolution. He actually was a prisoner of war. He actually was cut with the saber. A British officer wanted Andrew Jackson to shine his boots. He was a prison of war. And Andrew Jackson at 13, 14 year old stubborn kids says, I'm not going to do it.

And this British officer draws his sword, strikes down at Andrew Jackson. He raises his hand to try to defend himself, to keep himself alive. And the sword cuts to his hand, cuts his face. He carried those scars the rest of his life. But when he becomes president, it's interesting. He had been a general in the war of 1812. he was a very successful military commander, and he brought that with them into politics. When he was a U.S. Senator from Tennessee, he actually at that time was being recruited to be a president.

And he told the people recruiting him, he said, I am not really fit for that level of public office. He said, really, I'm not even fit to be a senator. He said, I am fit to lead a rough men into battle where we do rough things, right? I mean, he's this warrior, and he's really good at going against, enemies, but that's his mentality. The reason it matters is because he is the president that did the most to change the foundation

of America. When George Washington left presidency, he delivered his farewell address and he gave advice to all those coming, to all Americans, but really all those coming after him to John Adams, to Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, all these guys who, he was kind of like a father figure on some level too.

And he's trying to help encourage his friends and what would help them be successful. Andrew Jackson is the guy that when he becomes president, he changes the whole structure where his goal was not to help America. His goal was to defeat the enemy. And he's the founder of the Democratic Party. And the enemy was his political opponent, John Quincy Adams. So when every other president had been elected president, they had appointed people to political positions who were competent. Andrew Jackson comes in and he says, I don't care if they're competent or not. I just care what

party they're from. Because in George Washington's administration, he had Federals and antifedrals. And that was the way it was under Adams and under Jefferson and really under every single president up until Jackson, they had people of different parties, but they recognize if you're a competent person, you're good at your job, you love America, then you can do this job. And Andrew Jackson said, no, I care about defeating the other side. And it's fascinating what he does because he actually, for example, one of his campaign advisors, he puts in charge of the post office, postmaster general, he made it a cabinet level position. He then instructs him that you're in charge and so you can do what you want. And so, for example, if there's mail that you think shouldn't be delivered, then you can choose not to deliver that. Andrew Jackson was pro-slavery. And one of the things that post office did under Andrew Jackson's during his presidency, under his leadership, is they decide that they don't want to deliver, especially in the southern states, any abolition mail. And so any kind of posters, any printouts from abolitionists, they literally destroyed it. And so you begin to see censorship.

So you see the politicization of the presidency. You see a media control. You see censorship. It's amazing that what modern politics has become, it started under the leadership and example of Andrew Jackson. And as we go to the book, we highlight from all the presidents. There's things we can learn from them that, man, we want leaders who do certain kinds of things. But there's other times we look and go, you know what? There's things we should never do or things we're.

we don't want a leader. We never want a leader to do these kind of things because we can see the result of what those seeds produce. Those planted seeds grew a certain kind of crop or fruit, and it wasn't good fruit. We don't want that anymore. And as we're even looking now in the midst of political campaigns and in a coming presidency, it really should not be that complicated in my mind for most Americans. And yet, if we would just go back historically, if we would just, for example, follow the advice that was given to us by George Washington or maybe advice from John Adams or Jefferson, if we just knew the advice they told us we could once again restore so much that's been lost in America. But if we don't know our history, if we don't know the advice,

the wisdom they passed on, then we won't be able to utilize that and help us succeed as a nation. So part of what we do is we want to tell the honest story, the good, the bad, and the ugly, but also we want to share the encouragement, the advice they gave of how we can help rebuild and make America strong once again. I have to ask you, I know, you know, our mutual friend Glenn Beck has talked about this. Andrew Jackson was really bad in some ways. You've just referred to one of them. In some ways, he's a hero and in other ways not so much.

Where does he come out ultimately for you? He's a very difficult figure to peg. Yes. So he's a dichotomy because he is an incredibly important military commander. He has a lot of success. And, for example, like the War of 1812, the Battle of New Orleans, he did things that fundamentally were vital for American success. So America could not have succeeded in some areas without his leadership.

But I would argue he is maybe the worst president in American history, even though, right, as, and again, I would go back to the default that he said he's not really fit to be president. He was correct. He was a president as if he was a general fighting against an enemy. and that's not the way to help America be a successful nation by treating somebody that has a disagreement with you as an enemy that you're trying to crush and destroy. So military commander, overall, I would say he was very important for America, did some very good things as a president, very, very bad president.

I want to come back to that. Folks, we are talking to Tim Barton of Wall Builders. I hope you're excited. The new book is The American Story. This is Part 2. The American Story Part 1. came out a while ago. The new one is The American Story Part 2, Building the Republic.

We'll be right back. Welcome back. I'm speaking to Tim Barton of Wall Builders. The new book is called The American Story Building the Republic. And we're talking about all these figures, the first seven presidents. You talk about them in this book, and we just talked about Andrew Jackson, who is, you know, he's a checkered figure to use that term. He's complicated.

He's kind of a maniac in some ways, fantastic. wonderful, in some ways, terrible. It's interesting that he sort of thinks of himself as a wild man. He thinks of himself as not qualified in some ways for the presidency. And you were saying that he got that right. He had enough self-knowledge to understand himself. He really did. He was, he knew he had a very short fuse. And one of the things, it's really humorous. If you look up, duels in American history. His name is always one of the ones you see, right, the president who was in these duels. And there's some outlets, some writers who have said he was in up to 100 duels. Well, we've not been able to document. He was in nearly that many. But what we can document

is he was an awful lot of duels. He was shot. He actually killed people. He was the second in many duels. I mean, this guy very short-tempered, very angry, very much was a fighter. And that, That was his attitude throughout much of his life. There wasn't a time where, you know, he kind of calmed down and he sombered and he just, you know, and kind of relaxed a little bit in his attitude. No, he pretty much was this way much of his life. And that doesn't help when you have a divided nation, politically speaking, and you have someone who is even more polarizing that doesn't help the nation be successful in what he does.

But, you know, backing up to the idea that he did some really good things. And then there's things that we go, man, he was really bad in this area. It's not unlike many figures we can look at in history where, you know, Winston Churchill is someone that if you look back to World War II, Winston Churchill was the man for the hour. His leadership was so needed in World War II. But if you study a lot of his life, he definitely had some moments where you're going, bro, what were you doing, right?

Like that you had some really bad moments in your life. And yet he had some really incredible important moments as well. And this is something that is so often true. In fact, as we go through these presidents, we outline this with many of them. Where there is a very distinct difference is George Washington is one of the very few individuals. When you look at political leaders or incredible leaders in general in history, most of them have a checkered pass to some extent. George Washington is one of the very few individuals that if you look at him, it's really hard to find examples of any major moral failings or, or, major moral flaws in his life. He was such an incredible, honorable person. Similar, if you track

along like at John Quincy Adams, another guy, it's really hard to find any significant major failing, moral failing, or otherwise in his life. But most of us just don't know these stories anymore. And so we would highly encourage Americans to go back and study this. And again, part of the reason we want to do this is introduce people to American history, but also we know that there's a rising generation who is being taught to hate America, but they're being taught to hate America because they don't know what America really was about. They don't know who these people are, and they've believed a lie. The way you overcome a lie is with the truth, right?

Jesus said you will know the truth, the truth will make you free. We have to get back to knowing the truth, and that's why we've taken the time to go back and write these stories, helping reintroduce Americans to the truth of American history and who some of these incredible leaders actually were. Well, it is absolutely vital, and I think things have to get really, really bad before most people will wake up. This is the theme for me because I see things have gotten so bad in America. All kinds of people are waking up now, right now, finally, five minutes before it's too late.

It is almost too late. Folks, be part of the solution. Check out wallbuilders.com. Read the American story. These are now two volumes. So you can read my book if you can keep it. You've got to know these stories. they will bless you.

Tim Barton, you and your dad and wallbuilders, bless me. Thanks for all you guys do, just a privilege. Thanks so much.