The Eric Metaxas Show - Tim Dilena

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

Tim Dilena, the new pastor at Times Square Church, talks about his adventurous career in ministry, and his just-released book that will help you dive into the New Testament, "The 260 Journey."

the Eric Mettaxas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show or program. I'm Eric Metaxis. I'm playing the role of Eric Metaxis. But fortunately for you, I'm just the host. I have a guest. Today, my guest is Pastor Tim Delina.

Here he is. I love having you on this program. I love the fact that you're finally here. We're friends. I got to introduce you a little bit more properly. I always say that. My friend, you are the pastor, the senior pastor of Times Square Church. Yes or no?

Yes, I am. Okay. I think we're done here, Albin. That's all I wanted to know. No, seriously, that is a big deal. I want to talk about that with you because Times Square Church has a big history for me. I should say that up front, right? I met my wife at Times Square Church, and my joke is always – in fact, I met all three of my wives at Times Square Church.

No, I just met Suzanne at Times Square Church. And I, when I first became a believer in 1990, which was like a year and a half, two years into my faith journey, I started going to Times Square Church. David Wilkerson was the pastor. Now, there are people listening who probably don't know who that is. He is a legend, a hero of the faith who wrote a book called The Cross and the Switchblade. I want to talk to you about that. And he founded a church in New York City. And I have never, to this day, ever been to a church like Times Square Church.

It is just one of the most extraordinary experiences I've ever had. I remember the first day I went there. It blew my mind. And that was the spring of 1990, which is suddenly 30, 31 years ago. And I remember in 1994 or five, a new guy came in, Pastor Carter Conlon. I thought, who's this new guy? And from Canada. And the new guy just retired.

That's how much, how time flies. Now, you're the new guy. You're Tim Delina, the new pastor of Times Square Church. So there's a lot to talk to you about, but I just want to introduce you that way. And then I want to ask you some questions. And the first question is, what is your story up until you got to Times Square Church? I know Brooklyn Tabernacle's in there, but I want my audience to know, because I know this, but it's an interesting story of growing up where?

Long Island. Long Island, absolutely. So I'll give you a couple of moments is I, my ministry started. I was going to Baylor University in Waco, Texas. And during spring break, David Wilkerson was speaking in Fort Worth, Texas. I decided to come up and help them. In fact, it was a conference for youth pastors put on by Rich Wilkerson, which at that time would have been Rich Wilkerson senior, not the junior.

And how's he related to David Wolkerson? distant cousin. Okay. So while at the conference, my job was to take speakers back and forth to the airport. And this was my spring break. While I'm there, Eric, David Wilkerson, who has been a family friend, which I'll give you that side note in a second, sitting next to him on the front row before he speaks, says, hey, why don't you come up to Detroit for the summer and help my son Gary start a church? Now, here's what's crazy. I had the opportunity. This is what I was planning to go to. I was planning on going on a mission trip to Jamaica and then Detroit. If you don't pray, it's Jamaica. If you do pray, you end up in Detroit. Problem was, I prayed. That's always a problem. I try not to pray, and I can't do it.

We need to pray. We need to pray. But your story, I don't even know how to start on this one. I mean, first of all, I want to say, let's go a little farther with this, but then I want to go back to David Wilkerson and the amazing, amazing connection between your family. I mean, this is truly amazing. So right now we're in New York. You grew up in near here. Yes. Yep. In Long Island, New York, my dad served as the New York City Police Transit Chief. So in the 60s and the 70s, the NYPD and the transit were separated. And then they came together around the, I think it was around the 80s. So my dad was in charge of all the subway and bus cops all over New York City. That first of all, that is at like a huge job. Six thousand policemen. Wow.

But he started as the son of an immigrant from Italy, a beat cop in Brooklyn, and then becomes the chief of transit. Okay. So we might as well go there right away. So your story, you're a New Yorker. Yes. You got an ethnic surname like me, you know, born in. I was born in Queens. You got the Italian thing.

I got the Greek thing. Your father is a cop. Yes. Okay. So people who know the book, The Cross and the Switchplate, which is a Christian classic. It's an amazing book. It's not long, but it's stunning. It takes place in the late 50s when David Wilkerson, a country preacher, a holiness preacher, just on fire for God, feels God driving him to say, I'm going to go all the way, eight-hour drive into New York to work with the gangs.

They're murdering each other. Puerto Rican gangs in Brooklyn. He goes there. There's an adventure. He writes about it in the book. But somehow your dad is a part of the story. So how does your dad come into this? So when David comes, he reads Life Magazine, sees a young paraplegic kid in Central Park beat up and killed by gang members.

It moves David's heart, comes to New York, doesn't know how to connect with the gang members. So what David does, this country preacher starts to preach on the streets, a word that's not used very much, street rally, comes in, sets up a little stage and starts to preach in Brooklyn, New York, and there are the Mao's, the bishops. And while he's preaching, number one character of the story, Nikki Cruz, who has spoken probably next to Billy Graham to more people and led more people to Christ, Billy Graham. He's speaking to the warlord and all the gang members of the Mao Mao. So this is, people have to understand how bleak New York was. I mean, it's the worst in the 70s, but already in the 50s, we're talking murders, gangs.

Yes. So Wilkerson comes in, and he's a kid. He's like in his 22 or something like that. 27. Okay, by now he's 27. But he was preaching to the roughest of the rough on, nobody is doing this, on the street corner talking whatever. And Nikki Cruz, as we know, he's become this famous man of God. He was a bloodthirsty, murderous gang.

at the time. And while David's preaching, Eric, the police, the NYPD tries to shut David down. It says you can't do this. First of all, to have the gangs here on the street, we can't do that. And we need to shut you down. Just as they were about to shut David down, a higher-ranking policeman, a captain comes in, and he says, what's going on here? He says, this man is trying to preach. And he says, and these four words changed not only Nikki's life, David's life, But even today, my life, and he said, let the man preach. And on that day, that man was my father who came and said to the policeman, let the man preach. What you do?

You never go against the code, blue on blue. You never go against that. But my dad had a conviction. Let the man preach. And as a result of that, a giant rally with 12 to 15 gangs happens at St. Nicholas Arena, Upper West Side. Nikki Cruz becomes a Christian. Teen Challenge, the number one Christian rehab center around the world in some 30 countries is birthed from the salvation of Nikki Cruz. And thus, as a result of that, as time goes on, a church gets started in New York City.

And now you're the senior pastor of that church. Hello, it's crazy, it's beautiful, it's God. This is what God does. He does these things to blow our minds. Did you ever write a book, or you've got to write a book called, Let the man preach. We need to. You've got to.

Well, here's what we are going to do. One of the things that I have. So Times Square Church has a Bible school in Pennsylvania. And I have about right now 20,000 books in my library that I've just donated to the school. And we're building a library. And the corners, it'll be called the Captain Paul Delina Library. Cornerstone will be for all of these students. Let the man preach.

This is beautiful. This is so beautiful. Well, there's a lot here, Tim Delina. Times Square Church. I want to come back and talk about Times Square Church. It is one of the greatest churches I've ever attended. It is in the heart of New York City and the legacy of David Wilkerson that lived on there through his brother Don and Pastor Bob Phillips and through Carter Conlon and now through you. It's just beautiful. People need to know there's a place in Manhattan in Times Square that you almost can't believe it. When I first went there, as I said, I said New York is different now that I have been into that building,

and I've experienced the worship, which I was even in the choir briefly, but it's an amazing church. I want to talk to you about Times Square Church. I want to talk to you about your new book, Journey, the 260. This is going to get crazy. We'll be right back talking to Tim Delina. Love is a burning thing, and it makes...

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neck, shoulder, hip or knee pain, even general muscle, aches and pains, then I'm suggesting you order their three-week quick start, still discounted to only 1995, about a dollar a day to see if we can get you out of pain too. And then after that, less than the cost of a cup of coffee a day to stay at a pain. Go to relieffactor.com, relieffactor.com or call 800, 500, 800, 8384. Relieffactor.com. 800, 500, 8384. I use it. It works. Check it out. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Pastor Tim Delina. What's that Italian? Tim Delina, Metaxis is Greek. So we're a couple of New York boys who the Lord saw fit to redeem. And your story, Tim, when you tell about that, sometimes things are just beautiful and poetic.

The idea that your father is a police captain in, where was this again? It happened in Brooklyn. Yeah, so in Brooklyn, right. So was he commuting in from the island? Yes. He lived in Brooklyn for some years, but then was commuting in from Long Island. Yeah. This is, I mean, people who know the New York area, it's like the blue collar story of Long Island, uh, cops, firemen, whatever.

It's, it's a thing. Yes. It's a thing. It's a New York thing. Oftentimes ethnic, Delina, metaxis, whatever it is. But so your father at, had a certain moment where he could override what, you know, you get these cops trying to do their job and saying, like, we cannot have this chaos. You got a guy preaching. We got gang members. We can't deal with this. We got to disperse the gangs. We're going to have

trouble. And for some reason, your father, what year was this? Fifty-eight or nine. Fifty-seven. Fifty-seven. Your father as a police captain says, let the man preach. Why do you think your father said, let the man preach? Where was your father coming from 1957 as a police captain that would lead him to say that. The part that I think is so significant in his life, so my grandparents come over from Italy, so he's in a strong Christian background because my grandparents came over as Catholics,

and Italian Pentecostals take my immigrant grandparents to the Italian Pentecostal Church. They get saved. Where is this? This one was, they said it was in Brooklyn. There was an Italian Pentecost. Even that, like if you're a New Yorker, the idea of Italian Pentecostal Church in Brooklyn,

it's like that blows all my categories. Absolutely. That's amazing. So your folks come over from the old country and they get the whole, they become Pentecostals. Pentecostal. And then my dad ends up, my parents end up at one of the most iconic churches at that time in the 50s in America, which was Glad Tidding's Tabernacle, across from Madison Square Garden. And it's there that they began to experience.

And see, they saw everyone from Smith Wigglesworth. to Catherine Coleman. What? Everything you can imagine at that church. Are you kidding me? Absolutely. Smith, Wigglesworth was in New York? My parents said when they would do healing crusades, my dad would tell me they would reel in the old time steel

hospital beds into the church so he could pray for the sick. And so this is my dad's background, which basically you're living out your faith going, I've seen the power of God. Why wouldn't I speak up for God? even if it would, even if it would cost me. And that's, and that's what happened with my father. I mean, think about this, Eric, because I come from that Italian Pentecostal family. All of my dad's brothers are either New York City firemen or New York City policemen.

And so I was on the same trajectory. I was, I was studying to do the same thing. My dad, when drugs was being introduced to New York City, the whole narcotic thing was taking place. A whole new division was being discovered there on the NYPD. My dad was chosen. There was only two men in the entire New York City Police Department to go to the FBI Academy. So that's what my dad did. Went to Quantico, studied there.

I was following in the same steps as him. And my dad's just, you know this. It's part of heritage. Your dad's a policeman in New York. You become a policeman. Your dad's a fireman. You become a fireman. But that's when David Wilkerson asked me to go to Detroit.

for that summer mission trip. So this is the 80s. 1983. I'm in between semesters. Okay. So we're around the same age. So here you are, a young guy. Suddenly life has changed as David Wilkerson, who, you know, by 83, he's a giant in the faith.

The book, Cross and Switchblade, which came out in, like, in 58 or 59, is a classic. And he's a family friend because of this experience with your father. And he says, what about Detroit? He goes, go to Detroit for the summer. So I, God Nick. mixes Jamaica, sends me to the worst inner city in America, and then David's son, Gary, decides, he says, I'm 19 at this time, and says, I want you to take over a prostitution hotel and lead the Bible study every Thursday night. So I'm 19. I play three chords on the guitar. Every Thursday night at

705, I'd have up to 35 different prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers. That was my, that's my Bible school. That was my Bible study. And what David was asking me to do was to commit a summer. And here's what's amazing, Eric. What I thought was going to be two months, I ended up staying 30 years and finishing my degree up there, get a call to ministry. And my undergrad is in corporate finance that should have put me on Wall Street. But God said, I'm going to put you on Broadway at a church instead. This is, I mean, it's so beautiful.

Now, 30 years you were the pastor of what church in Detroit? It's called Revival Tabernacle. We bought Eric, when we got there, we bought on Woodward and Six Mile. So if you know M&M, 8 Mile is the color line. Detroit is the most segregated city in America. If you go north of 8 Mile, it is white. If you come down the color line, it becomes predominantly black. We bought a triple X movie theater on Woodward and 6 Mile.

the first paved road in America, Woodward Avenue. We bought, it's called the Crem Theater. On one side of us is the Crown Prostitution Motel that posts hourly rates for prostitutes. Next to that is worldwide pornographic video. And then on the other side of us was owned by Hustler, was a topless place. And then we bought the flagship pornographic theater and turned it into a church. right there's 900 seat pornographic theater that I was pastoring. We started the church there. In fact, when we were renovating it, Eric, men would come in, they thought we were renovating it for the movies.

Men would come in and say, when does the show start? We'd tell them Sundays, 10 and 6. And we would see men come to that theater looking for the show, seeing me. We even kept up the same screen. And that screen now is showing music, hymns, choruses, Bible verses, and men that used to sit in those seats and bondage were being set free. I mean, this is beautiful stuff. It's important to talk about this because sometimes people forget the power of God, the power to go into an anti-chamber of hell and to bring Jesus into it and to change lives. I mean, it's amazing. And I love Tim that you just had the heart to do that and that God used you there for 30 years. Wow. Now, I first got to know you when I was visiting Times Square Church. I mean, I went there twice a week driving from Connecticut

in the 90s. I met Suzanne there. And then you kind of drift away to different churches and I'd visit once in a while. And you were preaching there and you were the pastor from Detroit. But eventually you were pastoring again here in New York after those 30 years at Brooklyn Tabernacle, and you were guest pastoring at Times Square Church. And then eventually you were chosen by God to be the new pastor. I mean, it's kind of a, it is an amazing journey for me to think that you have taken all these years. When I first got here to New York City after Detroit, after 30 years in Detroit and going to Brooklyn Tabernacle to work with Jim Simbola. And while I was there, the first week here, Eric, and this story just came to light a few years ago to me.

Carter Conlin, who was our age at this time, 57, we meet at a restaurant just to say hello. We've been friends. I was the guest speaker many times at Times Square Church. While we're in the restaurant and we're eating, Carter Conlin gets this look on his face and says, I have a word of prophecy for you. I feel like God has given me something to tell you, but I can only tell you the first part. And I'll tell you the second part later. I had no idea what he's going to say. His first thing was this. And this is over lunch of, hey, it's great to be here. I can't wait for us to spend more time. He just said, I feel like your next five years of your life are going to be some of the hardest ministry years. But they're supposed to be that way because God's

going to deepen you in that. And I'm going to tell you this, Eric, it's not the kind of thing you want to hear over lunch. And so I probably wouldn't even want to hear part two. He wasn't going to tell me. And I just go, well, whatever. And it was a hard deepening work that began to take place. Fast forward. That was in 2010. I get a phone call nine, almost 10 years later from Carter Conlin. and he calls me up and says, and at this time I'm pastoring in Louisiana. And it was God using that time to do a work at us. And he calls me up and says, I have to tell you part two. And you're like, no thank you.

No thanks, pal. I appreciate the thought, but I'm busy. Part one was hard enough. I don't know what part two was. And he said, this is what I heard from the Lord, that these next years are going to be difficult, but deepening for you. And there's a reason for that. and the Holy Spirit spoke to him and said, that is your replacement at Times Square Church.

Okay, so the first part of the word he delivers to you back when the next five years are going to be tough, but they're going to prepare you. But he doesn't tell you the second part. And the second part is they're going to prepare you to be the new pastor of Times Square Church, my Carter Conlin's replacement. Absolutely. Ten years later. Okay. Now, we're going to tell you the rest of this story after this break talking to Pastor Tim Delina, Times Square Church. Folks, I'm talking to Pastor Tim Delina, Times Square Church.

Pastor Tim, okay, I love this. First of all, the idea that some people hear from God like Pastor Carter Conlon and that he gives you a word. Now, he's not winging it. Like, he would never say something this powerful unless he knows this is God. So the first part is the next five years are going to be tough. So eight years after this or nine years after that, he gives you part two. He does. And in fact, what he does, as soon as he felt that he, the day, the first time he gave me the word number one, he goes back to his wife and two elders of Times Square Church and says, this is what I feel, test this word. He said, there's no way on paper this could ever work out. But I want you to test this. And now, why did he say that there's no way? In other words, this is nine years before he tells you, he goes to his wife and the pastor's Times Square Church says, this is what I believe God said, that Tim Dillene is going to be my replacement.

way in the future, why would he say it wouldn't work out on paper? Because I was already, I just got to Brooklyn Tavernacle. And so look like my future was going to be set there. And so that's where he said. He said, this doesn't even seem to work out. Nine years later is when he calls me up and says, now it's time for me to tell you part two. He said, I realized that you were my replacement. God needed to deepen you in this time.

But now it's time. I'm ready to step into a brand new role. He says, but you are to be my replacement. I mean, it's just amazing that God tells him who his replacement is going to be. And of course, now you are his replacement. And I'm so glad when I heard that you were going to take over. First of all, I was shocked when Carter said he's stepping down. I was like, what are you talking?

He just got here. He just got here five minutes ago. And then he goes, that's not five minutes ago. It's 1994. So it's kind of weird the way time flies. But I love that because Timesquatchez is such a special place. It's hard for me to overstate that. It is really, I've never seen anything like it.

And to have that in New York City, I mean, people say, how can you live in New York City? Well, once I experienced Times Square Church, New York City changed for me. I said, God is here in a way that I never knew he could be. It's just, it's so powerful. Well, I want to talk to you about your new book. It's called The 260. Now, tell my audience where the title of the 260 comes from. Eric, from pastoring now, I'm hitting my fourth decade. I've been pastoring for almost 40 years, which is crazy.

Started when I was 19 in Detroit and then the journey that got put together. I've always had a passion for the Bible, for the Word of God, and then wanting people to read it, and enjoy it as much as I did. And Eric, I've tried every program and encouraged everybody, read the Bible in a year. I found one version that if you read the Bible for 16 minutes a day, you can finish it in three months. I mean, I did everything you can imagine. And some people, they start in January and every year, it's the same thing. By October, they're still in Leviticus, not realizing, not realizing it gets worse. As long as they're not in numbers. That's exactly right. Numbers. Why do I have to read numbers? God, why did you do that? And all of us are at that point going like, if I see the word shekel or cubit one more time.

I've had enough. I've had enough. Enough. Enough. Omer, all these words. Come on. So here's what happens. I said, I want to find a way an entry. for people to love the Bible. And then here's what hit me.

There are 260 chapters of the New Testament. And there are 260 weekdays in every year. And all I thought was this. How about this? If I promise you, if you read a chapter a day of the New Testament, I'll write a commentary on it that you can kind of be a Bible help and a manual, a devotional part. So you read a chapter.

Monday through Friday, Saturday you catch up, and Sunday you go to church. And then you start back off on Monday. So all of a sudden, to help the body of Christ, I said, why not take people on a 260 journey and get them through the New Testament? It's, first of all, it's a great concept. It's a great title. So here's a question. Where can the people listening to this program get this lovely product? How can we get our hands on this? It's, it's on two places you can go. You can go to Amazon, you can get either an eBook, you can get it on Kindle, or you can buy the hard copy. And it's, here's what's crazy. Or you can go to even our website, tsc.n.YC. Either one of those. But here's what's crazy. This is 712 pages.

But when my, when my editor said, hey, most books are 200, 20, 25 pages. I said, you're going to print every word. Just clean it up. Thank you. Every word. So for $20 and a 712 page book, it's a deal. it's a doorstop, whatever you want. Anything. You want to flatten leaves or flowers. No, seriously, though, this book, it's called The 260. It's a great idea. When you told me this idea the other day when we were having dinner here, I thought, what a beautiful idea.

Because people are looking for, let's be honest, okay? It is difficult in our busy lives to figure out a way to navigate devotions and things. Anything that makes that easier, it's fantastic. But this morning, since I knew we were. going to be talking, I was looking through the book this morning, and I haven't read much of it yet, but I've read some of it. But this morning, I was looking through the book, and I found my own name in the book. And I said, is this a coincidence? No. Tim Delina put my name in it. It was the chapter on the communion on the moon where I've written about that many times. When I discovered that Buzz Aldrin

took communion on the moon, I flipped out. So I've written about it in several of my books. But you put it in here. Absolutely. And you attribute it. it to the author. It's incredible. But I mean, one of the reasons that I love this book and because we both share this, I love interesting nuggets. Like most people have no idea that when Apollo 11 landed, that they, I mean, that Buzz Aldrin took communion on the moon. And I actually met him and asked him about this. And he was kind of blown away. Like, how do you know that? And because most people don't know about this. So that's in this book. It's, it's, it's, it's, beautiful, but people go to tcc.n. NYC. That's the website of Times Square Church. TSC. TSC. NYC. Get a copy of the

260 and you can find everything Times Square Church related. We'll be right back talking to Pastor Tim Delina. Pastor Tim Delina of Times Square Church, TSC.NYC. Okay, to get back to the book, I was really astounded this morning and it seems like the Lord because I just, I know that I'm not on every page of the book, so it kind of astounded me that I happened to find my name in there. But what is, when you say, you know, these are commentaries, and I know just because I've read some of it, but tell my audience, like, what is in here? So what we do is this. We will take great stories from Eric Metaxus, great quotes from around the centuries,

and to make the Bible pop and come alive. So what you've just read. Like, for example, today I just recorded Romans 16. And here's what I talked about in Roman 16. I called it. You'll see at the top of the page. Roman 16, the second amen. So it goes like this, Eric.

It looks like Romans ends at the end of chapter 15. Paul gives his doxology and the God of peace be with you, amen. But all of us, we know from pastoring, how many times have you ended a service with amen and how to ask the sound man, turn the mic back on? Because when you get to the end of chapter 16, he gives a second amen and ends it and go, and the God of peace be with you, amen.

But what's in between the two amens? now begins to pop out. Paul tells the sound man, the proverbial sound man, turn it back up. I've got to write one more chapter. And Eric, what the apostle Paul does is one of the most overlooked chapters in all the New Testament. In Romans 16, he takes 27 verses and it's a phone book, 33 names and said, these 33 people put me and kept me in the ministry. My mind, so then we talked about what's in between the two amends, and then we will take like, and Eric Mattax's story. Greatest sports coach in basketball history, John Wooden of UCLA, 10 national championships in 12 years, won't ever be done again. Wooden had, you told every player this, when you go

down and score a bucket, after you score it, you were to point to the person that passed you the ball. And he says, and if you don't, you'll sit the bench. Oh. When was the last time you saw a defensive end sack a quarterback and point to the lineman that provided the hole? Oh. They're pointing to themselves, thumping their chest. And it's the Apostle Paul, Eric, pulls a John Wooden and points to 33 people and said, you got me here. Thank you, Phoebe. Thank you, Aquila.

Thank you, Priscilla. Thank you, Rufus. Names we never know unless the Apostle Paul pulls a John Wooden in between this two amends. Rufus is in the New Testament. I always thought it came from Chaka Khan. I was wrong. I was wrong. I could be wrong.

I just love that. Is that the chapter where he says, Alexander, the middle worker, has done me great harm? No, that one's in Timothy. But he's not in that list. These are the ones that got, he did him great harm. These are the ones that passed him the ball. So these are all the ones that passed in a ball and made it possible for him to be the Apostle Paul. And he points his finger at 33 people and says, take note of these.

He pulls a John Wooden. But see, here's what you're pulling at Tim Delina, because by saying it the way you just did, you have made, you've given me a mnemonic, device to remember Romans 16, to remember John Wooden and to remember, and you mentioned John Wooden in the commentary. Yes. But I mean, that's an interesting thing, that a good Bible teacher, which you are, you do that. And because I think a lot of times those of us who are not officially in ministry, we know,

I mean, I have bits and pieces of scripture all through my head, but do I remember where's the scripture or where to get that context, the more you know, the more it helps you to know other stuff. And so now you've just given me a mnemonic for, for, for Roman 16, which I never, never would have had. John wouldn't. And that's, and that's what, that's what we do all over the 260 journey because we want people to fall in love with the Bible. This is just a help. And it's, it's, for some, it'll be a devotional. For some, for some preachers, it will be a help. And it spark some thoughts from messages. Like, think about this, Eric. First, so when the Bible was written, around the 12th century, that's when the chapters were added. So there is no magic numbers in the Bible. They're just

added just for division. So every letter was written that way. So think of the difference. Okay, we did Romans 15 and 16. Let's do this one. First Corinthians 15 and 1st Corinthians 16. First Corinthians 15 starts off with the resurrection of Jesus and then ends with the rapture. He's calling out. He says, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, will be caught up to meet him. And then he says, oh, death, where is your victory, where is your sting? And he starts speaking that. And just when he brings you to the rapture, chapter 16 starts like this. It's now concerning the offering. How did I go from the rapture to the offering? And the apostle Paul is telling us, whether it's the rapture or the offering, if it's God's truth, it's always correct. It doesn't matter which one it is. And so it's not

divided that way. So that's what we'll do in the 260. We'll make, we want the Bible to come live to people. I love it. It's so fun to see people be themselves, to see you get excited about scripture. I mean, I've seen you in the pulpit, you know, talking to you is different. And then suddenly you start talking about the Bible and you become the guy in the pulpit because you've lived this. And you're trying to communicate it with passion to people, trying to put this in their hearts. And it's just, it's just a beautiful, beautiful thing. The more I learned about scripture, as I say, I mean, I was been writing a book this past year. And I learned so much. And I kept thinking it's way more fascinating than I ever thought. I mean, it's just, it's just amazing. And I think, Eric,

I know the journey that God had me on, which seemed like all, I mean, it took 37 years of being in ministry for God then to bring it to 51st and Broadway. But it had to start with speaking to prostitutes and pimps for four years in a crack hotel. And then to go to a triple X movie theater. Our first convert was a woman named Camucci. Camucci ran, she worked the theater for $5 a trick in the theater, saw me for the very first time, called me Father Tim, and I'll never forget the day, because you have to make the Bible alive to these people. They're not church people. So you have to say, how do I make the truths of God live inside of them? And I'll never forget, Eric, what I, when she walked in off the streets, saw us, and we were buying her theater. We were buying

her territory. She came in one day, Eric, and said this to me. She goes, Father Tim, I need you to pray for me. And as I was going to lay hands on her, she said, stop, stop, I don't have any money. I said, what are you talking about? She said to me, she goes, all the other preachers in town charge me money to pray for me. And then they give me a passage. These are her words, words from a prostitute. They give me a passage in the scripture. John 7.13. and that's for me to bet it on the three-digit lottery. You're kidding. I'm just telling you what you said.

We've got to go to a break here. First of all, the idea that pastors, you know, we forget why some people are so wounded or they hate God or the church. The idea that a pastor would charge you money to pray. I mean, it's unbelievable. When we come back, we're going to hear the rest of the story talking to Tim Delina. Talking to Dave. Tim Delina, and I want to give you Tim a chance to tell the rest of the story. So this is like heartbreaking up till now.

You said that this woman who is just a horrible, I mean, broken woman, prostitute. So you want to pray for her. She says, I don't have any money because preachers were charging her money to pray. And then give, okay, so what's the rest of the story? So Camucci, who's 90 pounds, running, becoming a prostitute, I said Camucci. And because I was horrified about the preachers, I said, Camucci, I want to read something. something to you. I brought her to Matthew 7, 22, and 23, which says, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. All of a sudden her eyes lit up, Eric, and she goes,

that's how you do it. I said, what are you talking about? She said, the numbers. I never knew with the numbers on top of the page meant. Seven means chapter, 22 means verse. She goes, give me another one. I said, okay, Romans 310. For all of sin and fall short of the glory of God. She goes, this is amazing. Give me another one. I said, Romans 623. She goes, with wages of sin is death. She had no I was walking her through the Romans road. And then we get towards the end. We go through Romans 10, 9, and 10. And she's looking in the Bible.

Her eyes left. This is America and didn't know what the numbers on top of the page meant. And then Eric, she asked me this question. She goes, so you're telling me, if I give my life to Jesus, there is a place to go when I die that I'll never have to cry again. And I'll never have to stay on the streets again. I said, there's a place like that. We took it to Revelation 21, and she read the verses right there

that he will wipe away the tears from your eyes. And I watched that day, that young lady changed. She walks into our church one Sunday in the middle of me preaching, Eric. And the security in that area, we had to have security. She comes walking down the aisle in the middle of the message. And they're about to pounce on her and pull her out. And I go, let her go. She comes up and starts spinning on the stage with this long dress.

She goes, look at me. I'm a Christian. Look at my dress. The best way she can define Christianity is what she wears now. And I have to tell you, that young lady who used to stand on the streets for $5 a trick, marries a deacon from another church, sold lawnmowers is what she started to do. And at a lawnmower repairing company, I never forget getting the phone call that she was dying of AIDS from spending 20 years on the streets. and my, I can't wait.

My father's in heaven. So many people are in heaven. But there's a young lady that they used to call Kumucci, her name is Diane. That's who I want to see in heaven. I mean, you know, I didn't say it earlier, but that's part to me of what made Times Square Church great was its connection to the streets. I remember when I went to Times Square Church, there were usually some street people in there.

There were former prostitutes, former drug addicts, some people still in those worlds. it was every color you can imagine. I have never seen such an ethnic church. And a lot of times when people talk about, you know, white churches are so this. I just go, what do you talk? What churches do you go to? The church where I really grew in the faith was just overwhelmingly everything.

Everybody was there. I mean, if anything, you felt a minority being white, but it was not even true. You didn't, it wasn't about color. It was about everybody loved Jesus. And I really think that it is just what you. hear all through scripture, but especially in the New Testament, the people that are crushed the most, that are the lowest, love Jesus the most when they come to faith. And I saw that at Times Square Church. The worship at Times Square Church was the opposite of singing. And it was total worship. I mean,

it happened to be via singing, but it wasn't just singing. And I think it's because so many people, they had their lives so profoundly transformed that they weren't playing church. They were the church. They are the church. I cannot wait until Times Square Church opens up. September, you said. Could be. Could be. Okay.

Praise the Lord. Great to have you here. Welcome to New York. Welcome back. Thank you. And to be continued. Amen. All right.

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