The Eric Metaxas Show - Tom Jones and Michael Pack

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

Runner Tom Jones highlights his marathon of 76 races; then, Michael Pack talks about Clarence Thomas and "Created Equal," and Eric shares a funny story about his phone call with the famous Supreme Court justice.

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m.investments.com. Taxis show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. Sometimes I read an email or something, and I just go, this is great. What is this? Can we talk to this guy? We discovered someone. His name is Tom, Joe.

not to be confused with the singer Tom Jones, nor with Engelbert Humperdink, who I used to confuse with the singer Tom Jones. This Tom Jones is an extreme athlete. That's an official term. He's an extreme athlete and a marine veteran who's passionate about the United States of America, about the Constitution, about traditional values of freedom, faith, and family. He's a world record holder and has a pretty impressive history of completing extreme. physical challenges, including running from Huntington Beach, California to New York City at a marathon pace for 121 consecutive days. I'm not making this up. He's my guest right now. Tom Jones, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show.

Eric, thanks for having me on. Look, I want to ask you so many questions. First of all, the principal reason I'm having you on is because you are going to be doing something fairly shortly along the lines you just described. What is this thing that you're going to be doing soon? Actually, I'm almost right in the middle of it. I've run 30 back-to-back marathons as we speak right now. You're in the middle of it now.

Yes, yes. We left April 19th from Montebello, Alabama, and I've been running a marathon a day every day since then, including today. A marathon a day. Okay, that's not a day. something I've ever done even for a single day. So what you're doing right now, it's affiliated with United We Pledge. What is United We Pledge? Because I know your goal is to draw awareness to the Constitution, to American Freedom. What is United We Pledge? United We Pledge is a nonprofit

organization. And what they're doing is they're building a very special and magical place called the American Village. And the American Village is a place that has recreation. exact replica recreations of buildings that were instrumental in the Constitution and the Revolutionary War. And they also have people that play the parts of people that were instrumental in that time, like George Washington, Ben Franklin, Paul Revere, Paul Revere's wife, men and women, they have colonial soldiers. And what they do is they bring in families and in particular kids, and they let them step onto the stage of American history and become part of the story. So it's a very, very impactful experience as far as history goes.

Now, if people want to find out more about United We Pledge, is there a website for United We Pledge? Yes, it's United We Pledge.org. Dot org. Okay. So you are doing what you're doing to help them reach their goal. And by the way, the site of the place you're describing is Montevallo, Alabama. It is, yes. So is that where you're, is that where you started this journey?

That is. And I'm, and I'm winding up in Hurricane St. George, Utah, where they're breaking ground to build an exact replica of this place on the West Coast. So they're starting development of that on July 2nd when I, when I come into town there, we're going to break ground there. And they're going to build an exact replica of that on the West Coast so that people on the West Coast have the opportunity to have. that same experience. All right. Look, this is exciting stuff. I want to talk to you about running and I want to talk to you about America. And I figure I'm safe on both topics with you.

But before we get to that, people want to know, how did Tom Jones get to be Tom Jones doing this kind of a thing right now? What is your story that led you to where you are today? Where did you grow up? When did these things become central in your life? Well, that's a great question and just kind of make it real quick. So my childhood was a dumpster fire. I was removed from my home when I was 12 years old for child abuse.

I was put into a foster care institution that was run by pedophiles. I was only afforded a sixth grade education until I ran away from that institution and joined the United States Marine Corps. They were great parents. They taught me right from wrong. They taught me about integrity. It's free to core. All my clothes matched. It was a good thing.

And I ended up being a world champion prize fighter. And I had the opportunity to train with Chuck Norris and other people like that. that, there were really great influences on my life. And then in 1998, I went to a foster care facility in my area that wanted a playground and they couldn't afford it. So I came up with a wild idea of running from Oregon to Mexico on foot, raising money and helping them have a playground. And when we dedicated that playground, all of a sudden, my life had meaning. I knew what I was here for. And since 1998, I've been lending my athletic abilities to worthwhile causes like this one. I love it. I mean, I really love it. When did you, you know, get into what you call extreme athletics? Because, you know, anybody can run 10 miles. Most people can do a marathon. But this is a dramatic uptick when we're talking on the levels of athleticism and endurance. I mean, for you to run a marathon a day, 26.2 miles a day,

I mean, what does it take to get your body to a point where you can do that? Most people run a marathon and then they've got to take, you know, three weeks off. What, what, how long have you been involved in this stuff? So it's a culmination of a lifetime of work, right? So this isn't something that you can just kind of go out and train for. So my entire life, I've been a professional athlete. And I got into it because I wanted to empower people that had been in situations. that was similar to mine as a foster kid to do whatever they wanted to with their life

because we live in a country that actually allows you to do that. And I wanted to share my story with them and empower them to be more and to empower them to follow their dreams, just like I am right now. I mean, I find myself in 1998, I started this stuff, and I've set several world records running. I've set the world record on stand-up paddleboard when I paddle boarded from Oregon and Mexico. Then I broke that paddleboard record when I paddle from Keywood. Excuse me. Hold on a second. World records. This is very impressive. If I had a world record, I would say it very slowly so people could take this in. You paddleboarded from where to where? I paddle boarded from Oregon to Mexico in 2007.

What am I missing? Hold on a second. How do you paddleboard from Oregon to Mexico? This is very tough for me to take this in. So I have a motorhome that I use as Base Camp and I shuttled with wave runners every day to a launch point and then GPS to wherever we left off and we'd keep paddling and then we'd leapfrog that motorhome and keep doing it over and over again until we got to the Mexican border. And then in 2010, I broke that world record when I paddle from Key West Florida to New York City. I really can't believe this.

This is mind-blowing stuff. A paddle. Look, it's one thing to run. I'm a runner. Upper body stuff, I can't believe, you know, how far can you travel on a paddle board in a day? I just can't believe this stuff. Well, when I went from Key West to New York, I averaged 18 miles a day. But when I set the flatwater world record on a lake, Smith Mountain Lake in Virginia, I paddle 30 miles a day. And I paddle that 540 miles of shoreline, I believe. it was in 16 days.

So when you were, I just want to get this, not that I'm going to do this, I don't really need the details. This is just for the storytelling here. But when you're paddleboarding from Florida to New York, you're doing this on ocean water? Absolutely. I'm doing it in the ocean water. And I can tell you, when I went from Oregon to Mexico, I saw Great White Sharks most every single day until I got to Point Conception, which is three quarters of the way down the state.

And, you know, when I went into the ocean, at the Oregon, California border, I thought I was the alpha person in the water until I saw my first 17-foot Great White Shark about six feet away from me. And then I realized I'm basically fish food. I think once Ward gets out in the Great White Shark population, they will be afraid of you. They just, they're not yet familiar with what you've accomplished. But this is so exciting. So right now you're in the middle of this journey going from Alabama to Utah. You are running, so this is on foot across most of the country, 26 miles a day.

We're going to be right back, folks. We're talking to Tom Jones. The website for United We Pledge is unitedwe pledge.org. And Tom's website is quitproof.com, Q-U-I-T-P-R-O-O-F.com. We'll be right back with Tom Jones. Hey, folks, if you could make money off of abortion or pornography, would you do it? I hope the answer is no. But I want to tell you, Robert Netsley, the founder of InspireInsight.com, he was the president of his local pro-life pregnancy center when he discovered that he owned investments in three companies manufacturing abortion drugs.

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Tom Jones, you are passionate about America. And I want to ask you about that, about faith, about patriotism, because what you're doing right now, running literally from Alabama to Utah, to draw attention to United States. United we pledge. It comes out of a love of country, faith, values. When did that become important to you? You talked about growing up in a painful, painful foster care system, whatever you eventually get involved in the Marines. When did these issues, because a lot of people would just, they would hate America, they would hate life. You, God has really found you and is able to use you. When did that happen? You know, I would tell you this, Eric, if they hate America, then they should get on a

plane and take a trip anywhere. You know, when I was deployed in the Marine Corps, I was deployed all over the world. And all of the places that I went and was deployed to didn't have the freedoms that we have and all the things that we enjoy. And I think it's human nature that when things are given to you free, you tend to devalue them. And you tend to put value on all the things that you can buy that can be replaced. And the thing that's so ironic is the things that you can buy can be replaced very easily. But the things that you're gifted. And when you're born into this country, you're gifted freedom. You're gifted freedom of speech. You're gifted to be able to vote and all these things. So all these countries that I visited didn't have these freedoms. And I can tell you one thing,

every single time I was deployed, Eric, when I got back to the United States of America, the first step I took on the soil of the United States of America without fail. I dropped down and I kissed that ground every single time because I saw firsthand what it meant to not have these freedoms that so many people take for granted. And then in 2009, I won on Mixed Marshall Arts Superstar Tour and I went to Iraq and other places in the Middle East. And I can tell you one thing, that was an incredible eye-opener. When you get back to this country, if you don't appreciate it, I think you ought to go and seek some help. I got to tell you, you know, it's just a joy to hear you say these things. And it's what I often say. And we get our perspectives in

different ways. I mean, part of the reason I appreciate this country is because my parents grew up in parts of the world where they did not have this. My mother was in East Germany, communist East Germany. My father was in Greece during the war. The communist tried to take over. So when they had the privilege to come to the United States of America, they understood this, we don't deserve this. This is an honor. We get to do this. We get to raise our kids as Americans. So my brother and I were raised to know that this is not normal. What we have here is not normal. This is a gift from God. It's a blessing. We need to cherish it. We need to celebrate it. We need to teach our kids and anyone we can what it is and why it's beautiful and why we need

to spread it around. And you, you know, you're sharing what you're doing with United We Pledge. I've not heard of them before. So this is, a big deal that they, the way they want to do this, and you're obviously helping them, trying to draw attention to this, they want to create the American village. Is that what they call it? That's correct. Yeah, it's in Utah that they're going to actually build a duplicate American village in Utah. And when you say the attention, Eric, that's the reason that I do these things,

because the attention is the bridge between one human mind and another. Without the attention, you don't have that bridge. So the reason that I started doing these things in 1998 was to get people's attention. And that would create a bridge between minds. And then I could deliver whatever message that I was delivering. And the message I'm delivering now is that freedom matters. And it's special. This experiment in the United States of America is the greatest experiment in the history of humankind.

That's huge. Okay. And it doesn't exist anywhere else. Is the United States of America perfect? No. are there people flooding into here because it's racist to the core and there's no opportunity? I think not. You know, they get it.

And I think that what I'm doing really is an effort to reignite patriotism in this country and in particular in the youth. Well, it is a beautiful thing. It thrills me that you're using your platform and the talents, God has really blessed you to be able to do this. and it is beautiful. Now, I want to ask you, so you're saying that United We Pledge already has something called the American Village in Montevallo, Alabama, because I had not heard about this till today. No, what I'm saying is that Montevillo, Alabama is an American village. And the United We Pledge has partnered with a company called Balance of Nature, and they procured about 40 acres of land in Utah that they're going to be. going to recreate an American village there.

That's what I'm saying. So there is an American village in Alabama already. Yes. But I had not heard about this. Like I want to go to Montevallo, Alabama now that I've literally not heard about this. And you should. I hadn't heard about it either until they brought it up. And then when they brought it up to me and they came up with this idea of me running

from Montevillo, Alabama to St. George Udall to break around for this thing. You know, I think that we have a whole mind body, right? You have your gut. you have your heart, you have your head. And all three have brain cells. My gut just goes, go for it. My heart was like, oh, you've got to do this. You know, and then my mind just said, yeah, it's a resounding yes. This is the right time, the right place, and the right thing. So then when I visited Montebello, Alabama and saw with my own two eyes the impact that this American village had with these kids, it was just like, oh, man, let's get going.

Where's Montevallo, Alabama? Is that near any of the big cities in Alabama? It's Montevillo, Alabama is near, what is it? Montgomery. Birmingham. Near Birmingham, okay. Yeah. Because I had not heard of the American village in Alabama, so I'm thrilled about this. I want to visit it.

I've been to Colonial Williamsburg, obviously. Anything like this. where you can especially get young people to see this, to experience this. It's just beautiful. It's just beautiful. It does something that's vital. So I'm thrilled that they're wanting to do this in Utah. And you said, Balance of Nature, this is the products.

They're involved in this as well. Correct. The CEO of Balance of Nature, the owner came up with this great idea, United. pledge. And so it's his brainchild. And so they're the ones that are behind it and they separated it out as a nonprofit. So that's, you know, the balance of nature is a fruit and vegetable supplement that I ran across about a year and a half ago and liked it so much. I called them on the phone and I'm like, hey, I get stuff thrown at me all day. Every day, half of it I won't take. The other half of it doesn't do much, but after taking this for a few months, I think you guys got something here.

And then so the relationship developed from there. I take balance of nature every day. It's kind of a new thing for me. So I'm glad to know that they're involved in this unitedwe pledge.org. So, and what is your website quitproof.com? What is that? So I do mental strength and resilience coaching for other professional athletes, corporate executives, and just basically anybody that wants it. You know, I've, with stone tools and carving knives, I've built quite a palace, you know, and I've learned a lot along the way. And so I'm able to take that experience and I'm able to help other people get mentally stronger

and become more resilient. And, you know, quitting's a habit like anything's a habit. The first time you quit, you like kick yourself in the pants and you're like, oh, gosh, I'm not going to do that again. Next time you quit, it gets a little easier. Next time you quit, it gets a little easier. Next time you quit, now all of a sudden you're a habitual quitter. So I've come up with a lot of different ways to help people become, like I said,

mentally stronger and more resilient and quit things less. Well, people want to know, too, you know, when you're running, you and I are about the same age. I never felt the effects of aging until the last few years, and suddenly there are aches and things and you realize, wow, you know, running a marathon or doing something like that, suddenly that's the problem. It's not just, you know, the normal problem. But so you have remained just extremely fit for decades and you're doing stuff that most people just can't imagine. What is your advice to people in terms of exercise and that kind of thing? Because clearly there's a connection to the mind and to the soul and the body. I mean, it's between them. There's connection

or among them those connections. 100% Eric. And the thing is that the mind controls everything. So, you know, the secret to becoming successful is to understand this. You become your thoughts. So be careful about what you think about, right? Because what you think about, you know, that becomes your actions. Be careful of your actions because your actions, those become your habits.

And be careful of your habits because your habits, they're the compass that drive. your entire life. So be careful of your thoughts. And think positive things because I can tell you one thing, you, the person that you listen to the most is you, you know? Wow. So tell yourself good things. Tell yourself strong things.

You know, the mind drives the machine. We're going to go to a break. Final segment coming up with Tom Jones. Powerful stuff, folks. We'll be right back. Hey there, folks. Eric Metaxis here. As you know, our friend, and he's a real friend, Mike Lindell, has a passion.

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The offer will not last long, so order now with promo code Eric at Mypillow.com or call 800-978-3057. 800-978 3057. Folks new pussy cat. having a fun and important conversation. I like all my conversations to be fun and important with Tom Jones. He's an extreme athlete, marine veteran, doing something right now that is amazing. He is running across most of the country a marathon a day to draw attention to the ideas of patriotism, faith,

and specifically unitedwe pledge.org building a replica of this American village that's in, Montavello, Alabama. They want to do that in Utah, which is where he's going to end up. So, Tom, I've got to ask you, when you're running, at what pace do you run so that this is possible? Because, I mean, I just really, again, can hardly imagine to go 26 miles in a day and then to do it the next day and the next day. How do you, what have you settled into at this point that makes this possible for you? It's 26.2 miles a day, and I can tell you one thing, those last 6.2 miles, those are the ones that kick your butt. So what I've settled into is a pace of right around 4 to 5 miles an hour. I mean, it's just unbelievable to me that you are able to do this.

And so you're doing this every day, and you're about halfway from Montevallo, Alabama, to this place in Utah. So where does that put you now in Texas? Yeah, that puts me in Arlington, Texas. So we're approaching halfway through it. And so I think in two days we'll have been at this 30 days. We're going to be doing 76 of them in a row this time. You know, last time I did this, I did 121 marathons in a row, but that was back in 2000.

And my pace was much faster than it is now. Although, you know, it's just a matter of being quitproof, man. It's a matter of being what? Quit proof. Quit proof. There's a good plug for the website, quitproof.com. Well, I just love it. And what you said when we went to the break before that,

who do you listen to the most of all in life? Yourself? That's a huge observation. What are you telling yourself? What are the thoughts that you're having? And it's so funny because the Bible is so clear on this. What does God say we are? God says we're infinitely valuable that he died for us.

We're made in his image. When you believe that, first of all, you're believing truth, but also you're allowing yourself to be in tune with what is right and true. But we have the freedom to say negative, destructive things to ourselves, just like we have the freedom to be destructive with our own, with our physical health. And it's so interesting to me that you link this, that that, you link the two. Yeah. Well, and I can also tell you this.

So I found out very early in my life that there's two roles, I believe, that we can play in our lives. We can either play the role of the victim or we can play the role of the victor, right? And that is really what it boils down to? So what kind of dialogue are you going to have with yourself? Are you going to have the victim mentality and tell yourself that, oh, because of circumstances, I couldn't do this, I couldn't do that, I couldn't do the other thing? Are you going to take the victorious role, the role of the victor, and say, you know what? We live in the greatest country on the planet, and this country allows us to do anything that we want to do.

All we got to do is roll our sleeves up and get to it, you know, and think the right kind of thoughts. Again, your thoughts become your actions. Your actions becomes your habits. Your habits are what drives you through life. Do you have healthy habits? Do you have unhealthy habits? You know, be nice to yourself for goodness sake. Yeah. And I'll tell you, what fascinates me really is like, you know that that that works. You know that this is right. But they're people that they've got all these, you know, reasons not to do it. And to them, I would simply say, okay, whatever, but here's the issue. It is God's will for you to think those positive thoughts. It is God's will for you to have his opinion of you, not your own opinion or the negative opinion of somebody who raised you.

It is God's will that you hear what he has to say about you and that you agree with that. And I think if you don't believe in God, you know, you can just say, well, I can do whatever I want. I can just destroy myself. But if you realize, like, no, he wants to bless you. He wants you to be victorious. He wants to use you for his purposes. That's his will. And it's beautiful for me just to see you letting him use you for his purposes to bring attention.

to the greatness of this nation, to the great ideas of freedom and this kind of thing. If there's anybody who would have excuses, you would have excuses growing up in the foster system, abused, I mean, but you choose to believe what is true over those other voices. It's from your lips to God's ears, and I mean that, because we are the divine creations of God, right? And that's what we are. We are part of God. And all we got to do is look in the mirror and we got to embrace that and we got to grab the wheel and we got to drive, right?

The mine's like this big D9 dirt mover, right, with a little guy on top driving it. So, you know, what are you going to do? Let go of the wheel and let that thing run into the ditch. Are you going to keep both hands on the wheel of that incredible machine and drive it in the right direction? I just love it. So your website is quitproof.com. quit proof, Q-U-I-T-Proof.com.

And United We Pledge. People can find out more at United we pledge. Dot org. Tom Jones, we are just proud of you and glad to get to know you. I'm glad my audience gets to know you.

And we're just excited that you're doing all of this. It's absolutely wonderful. Look forward to having you back another time. Look forward to meeting you in person, maybe running with you sometime. God bless you.

Tom Jones. Thank you so much. Yeah. And thank you, Eric, for having me on because this is a team thing, right? Because without people like you, the word can't get out. So I consider you and I to be a team. And I'm really, really proud to know you and be part of your team. And I can't thank you and your listeners enough. And we're raising money to build this American village. So if they go on United We Pledge.org, consider making a donation to make this place happen because I tell you one thing, freedom matters. God bless you. Thank you. Folks, welcome back.

I'm talking about the great justice, Clarence Thomas, with Michael Pack, my guest, who has made a fantastic film created equal, Clarence Thomas, in his own words. And now a book created equal Clarence Thomas in his own words. I mentioned earlier that I was going to tell the story of my phone call with Clarence Thomas, which was just a dream come true for me. Also a horror, scary, because there are very few people alive who would intimidate me. And I mean that sincerely. You know, I've met four presidents, five, if you count Biden, which I don't. And I'm not easily intimidated, but Clarence Thomas is such a great figure.

I found out from my wife, right after Scalia had passed away at the eulogy, the Clarence Thomas on C-SPAN or whatever it was, was giving his eulogy and quoted this Bonhofer book by Eric Mataxis and quoted me. I thought, like this is like a dream come true and like a nightmare that this great man has read what I wrote, like how frightening, you know. Then I had the privilege of bumping into him in D.C. at an event, and he had just read my Luther book, and I thought, I can't. I just can't take this.

This is too much to have this legend, this revered figure, you know, reading my books. Well, a few months ago, I get an email. I can't remember who it was. I don't think it was Mark Palo. I can't even remember now. But somebody saying that Justice Thomas wanted to speak with you on the phone. He's just read your miracles book. And part of me said, hey, that's exciting.

And another part of me thought, please no, I'm not able to, like, it's just too scary to talk to somebody that I revere as much as I do Clarence Thomas. So I was going to work out with weights that day, and I thought I better get that out of the way now because I don't want him to call. Like I just want to, I just want to be calm and rested when the phone rings and Clarence Thomas. So I was literally in the middle of my workout. I had just finished the bench press. Literally the last rep, the phone rings. I jump up. I look, and to my horror, it's the phone number. that I was given. So I'm out of breath. And I go, hello? And Clarence Thomas says, yes, I'd like to speak with Eric Metaxus. And when I'm nervous, I joke. So my response was, yeah, that ain't going to happen.

He's pretty busy right now. And Clarence Thomas said, oh, well, could you let him know that Justice Clarence Thomas? And of course, at that point, I burst in laughter, I said, Justice Thomas, please forgive me. When I'm really nervous, I have to joke. And I don't know who that character was. You know, no, he ain't here right now. I don't even know where that came from. But of course, he laughed. And I had the privilege of a long conversation with this man that I love and revere because he wanted to talk to me about the miraculous, because he had experienced some of that in his life. And, you know, to get to interact with him on that basis, on a fun. phone call with no agenda. I just thought this is a really great man. I mean, if I thought he was

great before, after just talking to him, seeing that he has a sense of humor, hearing about growing up about God's hand in his life, I just was so, so moved. And I feel, I think I said earlier, it would be my dream to interview him in a Socrates in the city format to give him that kind of an opportunity. Not that he cares, but I'm saying that, you know, like you said, this is for America. I want people to know who he is and the firewall that God has put up in the person of Clarence Thomas to stand for the country. So you made this film. You spent so much time with him. Do you, have you had a sense from him of his feelings about this?

Or is he so indifferent that he's just like, you know. His feelings about. The film in the book. No, he said he thinks they're great. I mean, I don't see him very often. Mark Paletta, my co-author, is a close friend. I'm a filmmaker. But I did see him at an event.

He generously came to a book event that Mark. and I had in Washington, another really nice thing. He was a surprise guest. It was at a very nice Georgetown home, and the owner of that home, Boyden Gray, actually, said, well, we have a max limit of 70 people. And when Justice Thomas and Ginny came up, they made it 71, and my wife was in charge of admitting people, but wisely, she did not turn him away, even though he was over Boyden's 70-person limit. And they came and they stayed, and they laid. And they lived. listen to Mark and I speak about the book and Boyden. And he did say how much you like the book and the film.

So I have heard that from him. So I think he sees the importance of the project in a way that maybe he didn't when those mutual friends first approached him. But he is very easy to talk to, as you probably found in that call. Well, that's what I found so amazing. I thought, again, this is a man that, you know, it's not quite talking to Abraham Lincoln, but it's close. I mean, I have such respect for him that it, you know, I, I just want to say that he has really suffered and he has been a hero.

And it's one of the greatest American stories I've ever heard and known. And that's why I want people to know it and to see the film created equal and to get the book because this will change lives. There's so much in his story that will touch people and will instruct people. And I don't say this, you know, for conservatives and Christians, I say this for anybody in America who's interested in what we like to call truth. Well, that's right. And I have to say that we've gotten lots of calls from people who are liberals about how much they like the film. The book is still new.

I hope we get the same from the book. And they would say, I never agreed with Clarence Thomas, but having seen the film, I understand him. and I actually like him, which they didn't before. And he has a great story. I still don't agree with him, but I think I understand his principles and where they come from. And that's a huge thing for me. And that is a great success. And, you know, I'm really proud to have done it.

But on the easy-to-talk-to-subject, so PBS, who, as I say, was very supportive of this film, we were talking to the president of PBS. And she said to me, how did you get him to speak? for 25 hours. You know, he's so shy. He don't speak. He's so reticent. And I said, well, well, actually, he's not.

He's easy to talk to. He has a lot to say. You know, it was not hard. And she said, well, really, Michael, you should say that as a producer, it's your skill that got him to talk. Rather than that is. Well, that's not, that's not. Listen, we're going to go to break. Final segment with Michael Pack.

The book has created equal more on this in a minute. He's in southern Make like a Mr. Milk Toast You'll get shot out Yeah, that ain't gonna happen He's pretty busy right now I'm that big of a jerk Folks, I confess it

Honestly, we're talking about Clarence Thomas Just this man so so great And what I think you just said Michael is that when you made this film And how people saw the film and I know if they read the book, it's going to be that much more in spades. You realize how likable he is and how much sense he makes. And in a funny way, that's another thing that conservatives have done very poorly,

is to show the humanity of some of these figures. We're always about ideas and about it. Well, you know, what about the life story? What about the backstory? What about your family? When you see the humanity of people, it's harder to demonize them. That is a very, very important point. You know, maybe all your study of the Holocaust, Eric, brings that even more strongly to mind.

But that is really true. And people want to put Clarence Thomas in a box. They want to caricaturize him, but they also want to label him. And so in just the coverage of the Dobbs opinion, people want to say that the court took a stand against abortion and abolished abortion. But they did not. They took a stand on what? That's a lie. It's a lie. But people are happy to speak lies, just as they're happy to demonize and dehumanize other human beings. Now, by the way, folks, if you have to do that, that might be a hot tip that you're on the wrong side of an issue, because that's basically what people do who have no argument is they demonize. Because if once the humanity arises, it's harder, it's just harder to reduce somebody. That's right. And we should be careful not to do that. They should not do it to Clarence Thomas, and we should be careful not to do it to people on the left. I have to say, you know, that's not easy, but it's the right thing. And I have said that many, many times that even try to understand why somebody says what they say. And again, public figures are responsible. And when we're talking about them, you know, we don't have to pretend like it's our neighbor. This is a public figure who's been entrusted with great power and they need to be held responsible. But how we do it is important. And I've seen, of course, people on the right do it in the wrong way. I've seen, of course, people on the right do it in the wrong way. more people on the left do it in the wrong way.

But it is important. And I just want to say to you, you know, the idea that you are able to navigate this, this middle ground and to reach people who I would say are in the middle. They're people that they're not sure what to think. And they've heard these false versions over and over and over again. And if you can reach them with the truth as you do in the film created equal and in the book created equal, you change lives because where else will they hear it? Well, that's right. And I think when you dehumanize someone else, you are dehumanizing yourself. Bingo, there's no question about that. There is. There is no question about it. We could talk for hours about that concept alone. We could. All right, we've got less than a minute. What else are you working on? What projects do you have in the pipeline? Well, we are blessed to have gotten a multi-year grant to develop a series of documentaries, which we're sort of deciding on right now. And, and, and, and,

we are also starting an incubator program to train young conservative documentary producers because they're, as we said earlier, way too few of them. So we're going to take three or four a year and give them a grant to do a short film. And my wife and I will be the executive producers and we'll try to oversee it and use it as a teaching experience so that they can make films that reach this middle ground. I mean, there are people, conservatives that make films for websites or do this sort of advocacy pieces. Right.

They don't have training in what I would call. the traditional documentary form that actually the left is very good at. I'm well aware of what you're saying, and how happy to hear this. What happy news. How wonderful. I'm glad we could end on that really positive, hopeful note. Michael Pack, congratulations on Created Equal to Film. Congratulations on the new book, Created Equal.

Clarence Thomas, in his own words. And thank you for your time. Well, thank you. It's always a pleasure to be on your show, Eric.