The Eric Metaxas Show - Vishal Mangalwadi

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

Vishal Mangalwadi, author of "This Book Changed Everything," explains the groundbreaking concepts behind the "Third Education Revolution: From Home School To Church College."

Texas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. As you know, I interview very interesting people on this show. For example, today, we have my friend Vishal Mangalwati, who is difficult to sum up, which is always a good thing. I think if you're difficult to sum up, it means you're large, you contain multitudes. For example, Vichal is a social reformer, political columnist. He is a philosopher. an Indian Christian philosopher. He's written many, many books.

I want to speak to him about the newest one. But first of all, Vishal, welcome. Thank you, Eric. It's wonderful to be with you again. Where are you on the planet today? I never know what are you in America. Are you in India? Where are you?

Well, yesterday we were in Los Angeles. Ruth and I, today we are in Fresno, California. for two days, and then hope to see you this weekend in Mara Lago. Mara Lago. You got invited to Marlago? Not I, brother. Not I. I don't know who lives in Marlago, but they didn't invite me. Listen, you are difficult to sum up, Vichel. You've written many, many books. Maybe the book that you wrote about most recently that people are aware of is the book, this book changed everything about the Bible. But the current issue that you're dealing with is summed up in the title of this book.

You're the one of the two editors with David Marshall. It's called the Third Education Revolution, Home School to Church College. So do my audience a favor and sum this up, because this is a very big subject. It's a subject that excited me when I heard about this. and I said, I've got to get you on. So tell my audience, what is this idea behind what you call the third education revolution? Yes, the simple idea is that we have to redeem education and restore it to the church. So the ownership of education, which is currently with the state or with private,

private interests, taking and the intellectual content, the worldview of secular humanism, post-modernism, post-truth, etc., the big words, take education back, restore it to the church in an ecosystem of veritas and virtue. So education is no longer pursuit of truth. It's no longer building of character, and this revolution is equipping every church to become a center of 21st century hybrid education, where curriculum comes online to every church, but academic pastors mentor students in cultivating character, and then the community gets involved in imparting professional vocational skills. Okay, before we go too far ahead,

I just want to make sure that I'm hearing you correctly. First of all, you said that, in a sense, the church, and when you say the church, I guess you mean the global church, people of Christian faith, need to take leadership and education. But when you say taking it away back from the state or back from private interests,

What do you mean by that? Because to me, there's not such thing as the state. In America, we the people, we are the government, we deputize people to educate our children with our tax dollars. Now, they may be doing it poorly. We may have lost touch with them, and we've allowed them to kind of become their own entity. But theoretically, it seems to me that public education is not inherently mistaken as an idea. It's that, that it has become unmoored from its initial purposes. I mean, that's my first question. Then the second question is related to, you know, taking away from private institutions. What do you mean private institutions? Because if I have a church school, that's a private institution. So how is that different from another private institution?

So I just want to get our definitions clear before we launch out more deeply. Thank you. So the second education revolution began in 15, with Martin Luther, where he sought the support of the princes to enable the reform priests to educate every child. And that revolution was grounded in the doctrine of priesthood and kingship of all believers. So the phrase, we the people, came from that context that every child of God is a royal priest. a king. Now the education has been separated from priesthood and kingship of all believers.

It has become, for the state is still educating for free. Private institutions have become education for rich believers, priesthood of rich believers. Only those who can afford to get into debt or who have wealthy parents and grandparents, they can send their children to to Christian managed university and colleges. So this, but in 1832 in Europe, the church handed over education to the state. In America, it began in 1880s, but particularly after World War I,

the church handed over education to the state. Church had started all the universities, colleges, I believe colleges, initially, most of them. but the church handed it over to the state. State is not an institution baptized with the spirit of truth. Church is meant to be discipling nations, marinating them in truth. And it is not state's job to cultivate character. The state believes, the state-owned universities today are teaching that stealing a social justice.

you can smash. But I mean, we've skipped ahead to 2021. In other words, I know that things have gone to hell, but the larger question is this was a process. In other words, when you make a statement like that things were turned over to the state in the 1820s or something, the state, depending on whether we're talking about the United States or Europe, it was a different entity.

In other words, it was an entity that believed in virtue, They were not pushing back like Marxists against the concept of virtue. So I just want to make sure that I'm tracking with you. We know things have gotten bad, and we know that somehow a secular idea of education has crept in, and which you know and I know is effectively absurd. I mean, that when you're talking about secular education, it becomes meaningless. But I just want to go backwards. When you had in the 19th century ostensibly public schools in the 19th century and in the early 20th century,

you still had, even though on one level it was the state that was administering this, it was in local parentis. The values of the community were still being communicated to the children. I guess it's not until you get to John Dewey and others that these bad ideas came in. So I just want to know where on this continuum we're talking about. You know what I'm saying? Because there wasn't a moment, so to speak. Well, in Europe, it was a moment in 1832 after Napoleon,

when the secularization and enlightenment had become so powerful that the ownership of education was officially. taken over. Now, it didn't have practical effect for three, four decades because the citizens who were electing school boards, there was no voter registration in countries such as Switzerland, Germany, etc. You had to be a member of the church to be registered citizen of a place, and then you voted, and citizens, the church members, normally elected the pastor as the chairman of the Education Board. So that process began, America began to follow that slowly, beginning with 1880s, but it was after World War I. Actually, let me, we're going to go to a break, but this is very, very important.

And when we come back, folks, we're going to get into this. This is a big subject. The book is the Third Education Revolution. Vishal Mongolwadi is my guest. Don't go away. Hey, folks, give the gift of memory for Christmas. Help your loved ones keep and improve their memory with Vivalour memory support. They can remember names and remain sharp.

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Vivalore has helped those with normal memory, mild, or severe memory loss. Go to Vivalore.com, V-I-V-O-L-R.com. Get 30% off with the code. Eric, that's 30% off with the code. Eric, there's no better gift than keeping your precious memories. Vivalor.com, V-I-V-O-L-O-R.com. Happy holiday. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to my friend Vishal Mangalwati. Don't try to spell it. That's my job. Vichel, you're a public intellectual. You've written many books. You're a public

Christian. This is a big idea. We're talking about your new book, which you're editing with David Marshall. It's called the Third Education Revolution, homeschool to church college. And I'm trying to trace with you the history, the bad history of what has happened so that we get to this preposterous moment when most people finally, as a result of COVID and other things, have finally realized, oh my gosh, whatever it is they're teaching my kids, it's lunacy. It's not only not based in what I believe and what the scriptures teach or what my parents taught me. It's basically cultural Marxism. It's madness.

But it took us to kind of to get to this point where many people are waking up. Whereas even five years ago, people said, well, I think things are okay. They're not perfect. But we're trying to trace how we got there, or at least I'm trying to get you to help us trace how we got there. So you said that in 1830, Now, this is in Europe. We have to be clear.

We're talking about Europe. You're an international figure, so it's not just America here. But you said that following Napoleon, something happened where the state – now, when you say the state in Europe, what is the state? I mean, we didn't even have – Germany didn't exist. Italy didn't exist. So who is the state in the middle 19th century in Europe? That's correct. That there are many states.

But what has happened with the Napoleon is that the Holy Roman Empire is finally dead. It had the Dutch 80-year war, finally the 30-year war, had already separated Holland and Switzerland from the Holy Roman Empire, making them sovereign nations. But after, so, but the political confusion, the concept of one nation governing, one government running a nation, whether federally or as a more centralized unit, that developed at different points. But essentially, with reference to our discussion, the education, responsibility for the education, passed away from church to the state, which could mean a city, which could mean a province, which could mean a federal government. That was, the church was no longer responsible for running school. Okay, but my question, my question is that, in a sense, why does it matter? Who cares? Because there was a point at which the state and the churches were effectively on the same page.

words, technically you're saying it moved to the state, but it's not as though we're dealing with Marxist states. We're still dealing with states. I mean, when the Kaiser is the head of the church in Germany, or is, when the church and the state in Germany were kind of, you know, two parts of the same power structure, they were not teaching particularly pernicious ideas. It took time before what you're describing, the separation, took effect, right? And so, now we're not talking about the United States yet, but please go. That is correct. That for the first 40 years or so, the ownership of the education passing onto the state or passing away from the church did not have too many practical implications because usually the,

the pastor was elected as the head of the school board. But likewise, even in America, there was still expectation that the school will teach children, the biblical moral ideas that children must honor their father and their mother. They should not steal. But the change of ownership is now making a different. where the schools are teaching, school counselor can be teaching a child that he can bully or she can bully her parents by threatening to commit suicide. And then the school can send parents to jail because they are, or take the children away.

You've just left ahead 150 years. So this is why I want to, I just want to be clear about what it is that we're discussing. There's a couple of basic issues. Number one is that you and I would say that the, scripture is very clear. And many people who aren't even Christians, they believe this already. They say, listen, I'm the parent. I am the one that decides how to raise my children, period. For good or for ill, I'm in charge. And the American form of government has always said that in a free country, the parents are free. There's something sacred about the family unit. And only in the

most serious circumstances, does the state step in? If the parents are horribly abusing the kid, murdering, whatever it is, only then does the state step in. But over the decades, and I think this is where we're going, there's been drift. And the state has become more and more powerful, and your average citizen has become less and less aware of these dynamics, has just been going with the flow so that what you can trace back to 1832 through the decades and now almost two centuries, we've come to a place where it's crystal clear that the things that parents assumed, that my children are being taught virtue, my children are being taught respect for their elders, respect for authority, whatever that is.

All of this has been fatally undermined, and according to you and David, Marshall, we need a genuine revolution. That's correct. So if you want a date in America, I would say that by the time of D.L. Moody, founding of the Moody Bible Institute is when the evangelical mind in America turned against the universities that the Protestants had started. because the American evangelicals began to say that we should not be teaching, don't send your children to the universities, don't cultivate your mind.

If you have to study beyond high school, go to the Bible seminary, Bible. So this is roughly 1880, roughly? 1880s. Harvard University was lost by Trinitarian Christianity in 1880s. 18 or 5. And that was the result. How was Harvard lost by doing what? It appointed a Unitarian to, at that time, there was only one share in Harvard, which was an

endowed chair. It was a very prestigious chair. And a Unitarian was appointed to it. He was a good Christian, very well respected. And when he was appointed, then a lot of professors who were in, including. closet as Unitarians. They came out as Unitarians, and then the Trinitarian Christians started a fight, like the Christians started a fight after White House was lost to take it back, you know, two years ago. So, or less than that. So, the Trinitarian Christians started

fight, but instead of winning control of Harvard, they started losing more. Yale and Princeton and Ivyley colleges. And gradually, by the time of Moody, the evangelical mind turned against the universities and said, let's start Bible schools. So the Moody Bible Institute, Wheaton, Dallas, Biola Fuller, Biola was Bible Institute of Los Angeles. So this Bible school movement was part of anti-intellectual movement in America that we should not be going to the universities.

Now, so the church. Wait a minute. When you say anti-intellectual movement, I want to quibble with you because I want my audience again to track and I want to make sure I'm not making any mistakes. You are, I mean,

I think a case can be made that part of what happened was an anti-intellectual movement. You can also make the case that it is a desire to push against false intellectualism. In other words, when Unitarian, when Unitarianism creeps in, and when you begin in the 19th century to see the erosion of fundamental biblical truth in the mainline Protestant churches, in the leading universities, in the Ivy League, you understand there's going to be a reaction. I'm not sure it's fair to characterize it as

anti-intellectual. In other words, I would describe it as maybe anti-secular academic. Do you see what I'm saying. In other words, I know it can go wrong and that it did go wrong to some extent, but the idea behind it was that we've got to bring ourselves back to first principles because we've lost them. No, it's more than that. If I'm to put all my cards on the table, America's intellectual fall began on the 4th of July 1776 in the Declaration of Independence. So what happened in Harvard in 1805 was a consequence of... This is such a big point. We're not going to let you finish.

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Call Legacy at 866-528-1903 or visit them online at LegacyPMinvestments.com. It's the most wonderful time of this. I'm getting into some big stuff here with Vishal Mangalwati. The book is The Third Education Revolution Home School to Church. We're getting into the intellectual roots behind everything. So I hope you're tracking with us. Now, Vishal, you just, before we went to the break, made a big statement, a controversial statement. And I just want to make sure that you make this clearly so we can discuss this.

You said that there was something, it sounds like a poison pill in the Declaration of Independence, that made it possible for trouble to come eventually in the 19th century. century into American education. So tell us what do you mean by that? Jefferson, in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence wrote, we hold these truths to be sacred, revealed in sacred scriptures, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable right. Benjamin Franklin put pressure to change the phrase. we hold these truths to be sacred, to we hold these truths to be self-evident, meaning derived

from common sense, product of flesh and blood, brain chemistry. This was because George Whitfield, who had taught America that all men are created equal. He died in 1770. And Thomas Payne, who wrote the book Common Sense, had become an influential force in America. So Benjamin, the wording was changed. We hold these truths to be self-evident, derived from common sense. Now, that's what created the problem in Harvard. The Unitarians were able to say, look, it is not common sense that one father, one son, one holy spirit, one plus one plus one equals one. This is not common sense.

So I cannot be an honest Trinitarian. I have to be a Unitarian that there is only one God because that's what the Bible teaches, that there is only one God. So many professors from these universities came out out of their closets. And then as Trinitarians fought to try and keep control of the universities and colleges that they had built, as they lost, that's why by the time of Moody, the biblical evangelical mind in America turned against the university movement and started studying establishing Bible schools. But, Vichelle, the point is this is not really anti-intellectual. This is anti-American academic.

In other words, why would we say it's anti-intellectual? In other words, I don't want to be able to say that the Enlightenment is the same thing as being an intellectual. Well, the Quakers, my family came to the Lord through the Quakers, evangelical Quakers from Ohio area. They had a policy. No child should go study above high school. If you want us to go beyond high school, you go to a Bible school. And that was actually common. I met many people from older generation in American Canada who said that they were told by their church, by their parents, grandparents, don't go to the university. lose your faith. But wasn't there a good reason to say that? I mean, let's face it, there was a good reason to say that. No. What American theologians needed to do was to fight the knowledge of truth doesn't come from flesh and blood. It doesn't come from brain chemistry.

Truth is a matter of the spirit. But American Church gave up commitment to truth itself. We celebrate amazing grace, but a president of the university was just saying that faith begins where reason fails. So we mustn't believe in reason. We must cultivate faith. Paul is saying God wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. But But American evangelists were saying God wants all people to be saved and go to heaven. The truth actually this has disappeared from American evangelicalism, and I can illustrate that point. Solar Scriptura began to mean study only the scriptures.

So you're reading Greek and Hebrew, not because you're interested in Socrates in the city or in Plato or in Aristotle. You were studying that to study the Bible. So, solar scripture was misinterpreted by the Bible school movement in America. I mean, look, I knew this would happen when we got you on here. This is deep stuff. This is important, deep stuff. I don't want to lose my audience because I, and I'm not saying that we're losing them,

but I'm saying that we're laying a foundation in this conversation so that we can really understand what it is we're talking about. because we agree, I think I agree with you and everything, but I want to be really clear that what you're talking about now, again, to backtrack to make sure that we're not losing anything, you are saying that when the main line Protestant churches and when these big universities took this step away from Trinitarian Christian faith, and they kind of, correct me if I'm wrong, but they sort of established a false idea.

And the false idea was that there's this thing called reason and there's this thing called faith. And what you and I would say is there's no such thing as reason and faith. The two are one, there's this thing called truth, both partake of reason and faith, and to simplify it, to oversimplify it, and to act as though we can. divide these things is already deeply problematic. It's fatal to the education project. We're going to another break. Folks, we'll be right back talking to Vishalmongalwati. The book is the third education revolution. All the way home I'll be warm. The fire is slowly dying.

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It works. Oh, boy, I've got a tiger by the tail. And I'm not just saying that. because Vishal is from India, just the concept of a tiger by the tail, something you can't control big ideas. Vishal, so respond to what I was just saying, because I want my audience to track because I want to track. Somehow, we can blame Luther.

I mean, I wrote a book about Luther. He gets involved in this. At some point, the reason you get some Christians becoming what we would call anti-intellectual is because they themselves bought into this fake, false, wicked idea that somehow you have reason here and here you have faith. I think scripture says this is nonsense. What do you say? I say that that is correct.

Not that the people who were running these Bible institutes were not intelligent. They were very intelligent. But we can use the phrase anti-university, if you prefer, instead of calling them anti-intellectual. Okay, but why? Anti-antiversity, because they saw the university as a secular project. Yes, because basically American theologians did not have the courage to say that the founding fathers made a mistake in putting faith in flesh and blood, in brain chemistry, in common sense. But I still, myself, I need convincing of this. In other words, you're making it sound simple that, you know,

that Franklin bullies Jefferson into changing it from sacred to self-evident. Part of me would say, what's the difference? These are words. I don't know that this is a fatal mistake. I understand the point. Well, when Peter says, you are Christ, the son of the living God, That's the truth. How did he come to that conclusion?

Jesus says flesh and blood did not reveal this to you. Brain chemistry did not reveal this to you. My father in heaven revealed it to you. So in America, it was never self-evident to most people that all men are created equal. Today, a typical high school student does not believe that all men are created. Nobody's created. Anytime anybody makes a point like this,

have to hit pause and say, okay, this is an important, gigantic point you just made. You're right. Reason, secular reason, and of course we're talking before Darwin, but once you get to Darwin, you say, secular reason leads me to believe that we were created out of nothing by accident, and that even the notion of equality is absurd. That's what reason, a part of it. That's what reason, from faith leads me to. But you're saying they fudged it and that in 1776 they made it sound like, no, no, no, it is self-evident to everyone. And you're saying, and I'm agreeing that, no, it's not self-evident to everyone. But I mean, what would Aristotle say? What would Luther say? What is their view of truth? And where did it go wrong? I just want to understand this. Luther is, of course,

very important because he is fighting against Aristotle and he is fighting for scriptures. So, but not scriptures in the fundamentalist sense. He says in the Diet of Worm, unless you persuade me from reason and scriptures. So he doesn't have this division of reason and scriptures, which is what the third education revolution is seeking to do. Organizationally, yes, it's bringing, restoring the education back to the church, but philosophically, intellectually, it is restoring truth and character, moral value. So is smash and grab, stealing shops, is it stealing a sin or is it social justice? those are issues we can pick up in the next segment.

Before we go there, because I think it's hard not to go there, but I'd like to try. The larger question is that when somebody says something, like we believe in reason, they are implying that there's something called reason and then there's something called faith. And you and I would say truth is one. But the question is, how do you deal with that practically? In other words, if I teach math to a student, I can say this is at least ostensibly divorced from issues of faith, even though you know and I know that the God who created the universe created the universe whereby we're able to use math.

So you can't get God out of the picture. But there are places where you can carve out, okay? if I'm studying the periodical table, I don't need to bring Jesus into it. It doesn't mean that he didn't create the atomic structure. But when you're trying to have school, when you're trying to educate people, you sort of want to, you don't want to bring Jesus into every conversation necessarily, but at the same time what you're saying, it seems to me, is that the educational establishment, in an effort to do that, they pulled a

away from truth, and then the church, in reaction, pulled away from truth in a different way. And so we have this bifurcation, which has led us to where we are. Sure. So that's correct. And but when we get back into the discussion of reason, you can't believe in reason, including mathematical reason, without believing in logos. This is what, of course, the Greeks had understood that why should truth be? be logical, unless there is logos at the root of the universe. So why should truth be mathematical?

Why should mathematics be the language of science? But this is amazing. I mean, so even the Greeks, centuries before Christ, intuitively saw what you're saying. There's just no way around it. Correctly. Correct. Correct. So, But then Greeks gave it up under Indian impact with pyro the skeptic as he traveled with Alexander up to India, lived with Buddhist monks for 18 months, returned to Greece, and he was the one who demolished Greek rationalism until the gospel of John began to restore that in the beginning indeed was Logos. The Logos was with God. Logos was God. We've come to, I knew this. When I'm talking to Vichel, I knew this is going to happen.

Vishal, look, it's such a joy to speak with you. This is the beginning, okay? Folks, we're going to do a part two and maybe a part three because this is very important. This is very deep. The book is the third educational, the third education revolution. Vishal Mungalwadi and David Marshall are the editors. Vishal, to be continued.

Thank you. Thank you. Hey there, sports fans. Okay, folks, if you're listening to my interview with Vishal Mungalwati, and by the way, that name will not be on the test, so don't worry about it. Vishal Mungalwati. But we're going to have more with him an hour two. But right now, and in the next segment, which is the first part of hour two,

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