The Eric Metaxas Show - What is Happiness? I Arthur Brooks (Continued)

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

Socrates in the City host Eric Metaxas sits down with Dr. Arthur Brooks to tackle one of life’s most enduring questions: What is happiness? Drawing from his latest book, The Happiness Files, as well as decades of scholarship and teaching, Dr. Brooks offers profound insights into not only the nature of happiness itself, but also the deeper dimensions of love, loss, and meaning. Together, they examine the science behind happiness, the obstacles modern society places in its path, and the practical wisdom Dr. Brooks shares with his students—most memorably through his signature exercise, “What is my idol?”

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. We'll get you from point A to point B. But if you're looking for point C, well, buddy, you're on your own. But if you'll wait right here in just about the two minutes, the bus to point C will be coming right by. And now here's your Ralph Cramden of the airways, Eric Mattaxas. Hey, folks, today we are going to be playing a conversation I had last week with Arthur Brooks. He's kind of a big deal, as you'll see. This was a Socrates in the studio conversation with Arthur Brooks. In the last part of Hour 2 today, we're going to play and ask Metaxus that I did recently. But here is my conversation with Arthur Brooks.

I am mystified by how difficult this is for me. I think, let's say, say pleasure and power, I would say. Those are the two. Those are pretty easy to say, like, that's not my thing. These aren't your things. And if you had the average amount of pleasure, you'd be okay, and comfort and security, you'd be okay. And when it comes to power, now, I actually believe power,

and the reason is because it's not like we've been, you know, we paled around as kids, but I know about you, and you're an entrepreneur. You probably hate people having power over you, is my guess. I never think of it that way, actually. And people who dislike power and who kickaway power, they don't like actually being under the thumb of anybody else. And they've lived their lives that way. So entrepreneurs are always like this. Entrepreneurs say, look, I've got a lot of persuasive capacity.

A lot of people do what I say. But, you know, that's the one I like the least. That's the one I like the least. I'm an academic. I hate power because I'm an academic because I don't want anybody to tell me what to do. This is really what it comes down to. People who love power and that's their idol, they admire dictators. Because you admire people who have your idol, who have your idol as well.

So I believe it. Now, it's down to resources and adulation. So you've got to get rid of wine. Well, the resources, like when you talk about it, you say money, right? I think of money as power. Right. In other words, you can have a healthy attitude toward money. You say, well, I want that, so that.

I mean, because I'm trying to raise money for all these projects. It's not so I can get a boat. or, you know, it's because I think, man, these are wonderful projects. You just told me that money's not your idol. Money. You just told me money's not your idol. And so you kick that away next. And part of it is because you see money as a resource to do good things.

Yeah. As opposed to that. Well, yeah. Eric's that rich guy. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, but then when you talk about honor or adulation or something like that, I think I also have,

I mean, maybe. I've had to deal with that because I do know what a dark temptation that is for a lot of people. They say, well, I don't want to say this because I'll lose the regard of that group. So I'm going to keep my mouth shut on this or this or this or this or this. But it's fascinating to me really that Aquinas, you know, 800 years ago just says there are four. therefore and these four are pretty all-encompassing people in our line of work generally speaking the idol is is honor generally speaking is and that's we do what we do for good reasons i want to glorify god and amplify people i really really want to but at the same time

i have to recognize that there's ulterior motives and there's human frailty that comes into this you know mine is i'm just i'm you i would kick out power i would get rid of pleasure i would, I'm perfectly fine. I mean, it's like money's great, but money's just money. Yeah. But man, this, I want people who like me. Yeah. And I know perfectly that when I've cut the corners, when I haven't spent the time with my children when they were little that I should have, when I haven't given my love and attention, when I've neglected my prayer life for a day or two, it's always because I'm seeking that, that shiny thing in the world of people liking me. And I could go into all the social science about how the brain is wired for people.

who have this particular idol. I know it. I've done the work. But the bottom line is, I got to watch that. I have to watch that because I don't want to cut corners. It's funny when you talk about honor

or you phrase it that way, I'm writing a book right now about the American Revolution. And so... Pro or Contra? I come out as pro-American. Really? Yeah.

That's a bold standard. Yeah, yeah. I come out against tyranny, ultimately. Anti-ty tyranny. But yeah. Yeah. So I, but the reason I bring it up is because there are two figures in particular, George Washington and Benedict Arnold, both of whom, both of them for whom honor was everything. And it's fascinating to watch, to look at the characters of these men and to see one of them

follow it to perdition, as you put it. It's fascinating because Honor really meant everything to Benedict Arnold. Right. And so he was very, very great. And it led him

astray ultimately. And he was completely principled in his pursuit of what ultimately was incorrect, what was wrong. Is that right? He was principled. I don't know. It's a fascinating case study.

actually because it's actually heartbreaking because you see this I mean you know you could say the same looking in the scriptures at Lucifer right the fall of Lucifer well it's because he was you know so great that the temptation was there

you see this with people right anybody who has a tremendous gift it's very dangerous because that gift can well because that turns to pride and you know pride so so the Luciferian case is really interesting because, you know, where, of course, he speaks Latin, because, you know, the devil speaks Latin,

where, you know, he says non-Serbiam. Yeah. Non-Serbium. I mean, this is the ultimate thing. This is the ultimate conceit of humanity, non-Serbium. I will not submit, which is a, you know, and it's not clear in a lot of, in these cases. That's the reason I ask about Benedict Arnold. Was he saying non-Serbium, or was he saying serbium, but to a different authority,

based on his moral principles? It's hard to say. It's hard to say. I think, you know, anybody, if we're honest, we would say that if I feel that I haven't gotten my due, I deserve this, I deserve that, and every time I get screwed over, and it's finally I've had enough.

That's kind of his story. He was... Yeah, he deserved over and over, But it's fascinating. It's like there is a kind of dark thread that's always there with him. And where does that come from? But it's always there that he makes enemies sort of wherever he goes. Really, he was a problematic person.

His father was, this is now in Connecticut, right? His father was an alcoholic. And the father was publicly denied communion at church. it must have been humiliating for a young man to see your father you know kind of become the town drunk and I think that he thought that with his own extraordinary gifting

he would lift the family out of shame and poverty and stuff and so he did tremendously well as a merchant he's in New Haven he buys several boats and he's sailing around the world and making tons of money and if you're a merchant in the colonies at that time, you have to be a smuggler. In other words, you have to be eluding the British government

was often asking you to pay duties and stuff, and pretty much everyone didn't. So it was in his best interest to join the Sons of Liberty and to stand with those on the side. of liberty. But I don't know how this happened that you're interviewing me about my future book. This is super interesting. I can't wait to read the book. I'm getting a preview on the book. You'd actually be on my show about this book and we'll talk about my stuff. But he, what's so fascinating, because he was all in. And there was no one who was more heroic and

successful militarily than Benedict Arnold. I mean, it's fascinating. But eventually at Saratoga, he injures himself horribly, and it leads to him getting a desk job in Philadelphia and on and on, on. But he, over and over again, he gets treated poorly, he thinks. And nobody knows at what moment he basically says, okay, I'm going to... I'm going to go to the dark side. Of course, nobody thinks it's the dark side. I mean, Hitler didn't think he was doing evil.

He thought he was doing... A major retail chain just canceled a... a massive order leaving my pillow with an overstock of the classic my pillows, and this is your gain, because for a limited time, my pillow is offering their entire classic collection at true wholesale prices. Get a standard my pillow for just 1798. Want more upgrade to queen size for only 2298 or king size for 2498? Snag body pillows for 2998 and versatile multi-use pillows for just 998.

Give your bed a whole new pillow set only while supplies last. Visit mypillow.com today. Use promo code Eric or call 800-978-3057 to score these amazing deals while they're in stock. Plus, when your order totals $75 or more, you'll receive $100 in free digital gifts, no strings attached. That's right. Premium pillows at unbeatable prices and bonus gifts to top it off. Don't wait. Head to MyPillow.com today or call 800-9783057. Now. Don't forget to use promo code Eric to grab your standard MyPillow for only 1798 only while supplies last. The book is, the book that we have here is the happiness files, insights on work and life. And there's so much in here, obviously, because it's a book of columns. But it seems to me that you're touching on the key pieces. And it has something to do with, what can we call it, mindfulness, introspection, to take, to be willing, to dare to take stock of our lives. This is how metacognition works, thinking about thinking.

standing in awe of the great creation that is your mind and brain and self to have gratitude for the complexity as the creature that God created. And that's one of the reasons that I love behavioral science is because it makes me stand in awe of God's greatest creation. Understand how it works. I wish more behavioral scientists thought that way. That's extraordinary. Now, I have to ask you just biographically,

How did you get started doing what you're doing, Arthur? So I actually started off as a French horn player, which is not the typical path, I guess, to teaching at the Harvard Business School. I was a French horn player, a lot of it in the Barcelona City Orchestra all the way through my 20s. I went to college in my late 20s by correspondence and got just interested in economics and psychology. Did this is where you met your wife? No, I actually went there chasing her. I met her on a concert tour in France where she was studying.

She lived in Barcelona. She's a Catalan girl. She's Spanish. And I moved to Barcelona in a bid to try to convince her to marry me. And we didn't speak to same language. How that took me out? A couple of years to get the vocabulary so she could figure out what I was saying when I was down to one knee. And it took me two years, but I closed the deal.

And now we have kids and grandkids. So far so good. The French horn career didn't work out, but the more important part, the marriage did. And from there, I started studying social science because I was looking for a new path in life. I went to college, finished about a month before my 30th birthday by correspondence. I never set a foot on a campus. And from there, I went to graduate school because I was so interested. I was still hungry.

And I went and got my Ph.D. and became a social scientist. Then I taught for about a decade, most of it was Syracuse. And then I left and took over as president of the American Enterprise Institute, a big think tank in Washington, D.C. That's where you and I met. I did that for 11 years and then when it was time to leave in my mid-50s I was a little bit I was a little bit

confused about what I was supposed to do which people often are in their mid-50s and so I did what Christians have done for more than a thousand years when they have a discernment question I walked the community of Santiago across northern Spain walking and praying

walking and praying walking and praying every day Lord guide my path I said and entering Santiago de Compostela in northern Spain God gave me an answer, which was to lift people up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love using science. I went back to my roots, take a professorship, and dedicated myself to this work for the rest of my life. How did you, if I can ask, how did you discern that?

At the end of this, how long were you walking and praying? Eight days. I mean, the whole thing is 33 days, but my wife Esther said, uh-uh. You do 33 days by yourself. I'll do eight days with you. And so, you know, I took the eight. Okay. But that's okay.

that's that's uh that's 160 kilometers and that's not too bad but not bad but did you was there i mean because i i i'm really fascinated uh almost as a with a scientific curiosity about how uh people hear from god yeah some don't but but but that concept of how uh people hear from god or discern yeah what they think is god's will was there was there was there a moment for you or was it just more general a general knowing? Well, so many religions, but particularly Christians

have a dedication to pilgrimage across many. You were raised in the Greek Orthodox tradition and we Catholics and many evangelical people. There's sort of ambulation has this this ad mixture of spirituality and physicality. And part of the reason is because we're beings. We're not

Gnostics. We believe that we're even Gnostics aren't I know. Yeah. They just think they are. Yeah. Yeah. There's just, you know, the holy spirituality with a shell that has to fall away.

But no, no, no, no. We believe in the resurrection of the body. We believe in the body. We are corporeal beings. We are. And our Savior was fully God and fully man. That's a big deal for us. So we've got to take it seriously.

And so exercising your body, mixing your spirituality with your physicality is a really important exercise that has been so since the time of Christ. Which is one of the reasons that people find. when they do a pilgrimage that the discernment comes easier. And there's a whole lot of science that goes in behind it. You're actually better able to access the dark consciousness, the right hemisphere of the brain when you're in the process of ambulation. If you walk without devices, you're more likely to have epiphanies. I've actually noticed that.

I mean, I'm a runner, and I have noticed that. Run without devices. You'll have your best ideas. Lift weights without devices. You'll have your best ideas. This is why you have your best ideas in the shower, because there's no devices in there unless you're some sort of weirdo.

Right. So this is important. And so what people believe is that... That's going to be a dark day when they figure out, you know, how to create earbuds that you can wear in the shower. That will be bad. The problem is they work in the shower. Yeah, you shouldn't have said that.

I know. I don't say that publicly. I know. Your whole Socrates in the city, the entire Socrates on... Is everybody's going to be doing that? People can listen to this in the shower. But don't. But don't.

Well, keep going, though. Yeah. So the tradition is as you walk, your discernment will be progressive. And there was a belief, an ancient, ancient, ancient Christian belief from the third, fourth, fifth century, that upon entering Santiago de Compostela, where it's believed that the apostle, St. James, the brother of St. John, sons of Zebedee, sons of thunder, that his remains are there at the cathedral of Santiago de Compostello, that God will give you discernment. But the bigger point is this. If you want to know your path, you need to pray. And that means you should do all the talking. You should pray without doing all the talking.

You need to listen. There's a listening prayer. And you need to occupy yourself when you're in the process of listening. And that's a hard thing for people to do. That sounds like a one-sided conversation, but it isn't. No, that is difficult. It's a real hard thing to do. Catholics will do it in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

And so I'll recommend to a lot of fellow Catholics. If they want the knowledge that they seek, if they want God to put the knowledge on their hearts to spend time every day in front of the Blessed Sacrament. But a walking pilgrimage really does that too. And I believe that to be the case, and I strongly felt it. I strongly felt a very strong idea that my job going forward is to glorify God and edify others using science and ideas. You're not just making this up. I'm only making up because it makes good copy. It makes good...

No, but how wonderful. But, I mean, I kind of feel like you were already doing that. Weren't you already basically doing that? I hope so. I hope I was doing that. But there are junctures in your life. There's liminalities in your life. The twixt in between, as they say, you know, the periods, the epochs.

And you need to find new ways to kind of spiral into a new way to express that. And I didn't know what to do. I wanted to bring to full fruition my faith and my knowledge. I mean, God gave me... the ability to work in the realm of behavioral science. I'm so grateful for that, but I want to be a missionary. I want to be a missionary. And what does it mean?

You know, guide my path so I can be a missionary, so I can do it in the service and the service of the master. You know, the master has need of it, right? I'm like that little cult. The master has need of it, right? What does it mean? What do I do? And that was the knowledge I was trying to get.

I wasn't trying to figure out if I was trying to serve the master. I was how, how. Right. And that was the process of discernment that actually led me to do what I do today. So practically speaking, what you do today is you teach, you write. Right. I speak. I'm on the road about 48 weeks a year.

I'm doing between 100 and 150 talks to public audiences, which is public education. I do a lot of media. Wow. Yeah, it's great. And you've started a new podcast? Yeah, office hours with Arthur Brooks. Yeah. It's called office hours with Arthur Brooks.

I'm just talking about it's working for a living. behavioral science. I'm talking about the science. I'm trying to blow minds with what the data say, with the studies say, how it actually intersects with philosophy and religion. But isn't it fascinating? I mean, I know you think it's fascinating, that it does, the data does point us in directions. That, you know, that's fascinating. We're at a point now in the world of science where we can find this stuff, where it can help us. It can help us. It really can. You know, It's a funny thing. If you were a scholar of Picasso, you would need to know a lot about Picasso's paintings and a lot about Picasso, the man. And you wouldn't find evidence of Picasso, the man, inside Picasso's paintings, but each would fortify the other. And in so doing, and obviously it's a metaphor for faith and reason, I'm a much better Christian because of my behavioral science background. And I'm a much better behavioral scientist because I'm a Christian man. I think I should probably at this point ask you,

how can people get this terrific product? I always want to put it as vulgarly as possible. Yeah, yeah. But in all seriousness, the book is available where people can get books, but how can people best be in touch with you and your work? Yeah, everything like everybody else, it's online, arthurbrooks.com, just like it sounds. And, you know, there's all kinds of interesting tests that people can take to assess their own levels of happiness across different dimensions, all the things that I write and the talks that I give, all the media, a lot of free resources.

As a matter of fact, there's even PowerPoint presentations that people can download so they can teach my material to their family and friends and colleagues and at their school. And, man, I want a movement of happiness teachers. That's what I want. A movement of happiness teachers. That's what I want. Arthur, I like it. I like it. I'm sorry we're at a time.

but what a joy. Thanks for being my guest today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Eric. Nice to see you. Thank you. God bless you. Thank you. Hey, folks, every now and again, we do a couple of segments.

We call it Ask Metaxus. A lot of you have written in, and by the way, I want to encourage you to write in. We are delighted to hear from you. This is, you know, radio listeners. A lot of you watch this on YouTube. By the way, subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please do that if you haven't done that. Eric Metaxus on YouTube.

It's just my name, Eric Mataxis on YouTube. Subscribe to our channel because a lot of these interviews that I do and segments that I do, they're fun to watch. So anyway, but we do a lot of Ask Metaxus stuff. Sometimes we have segments called, you know, a listener writes, and sometimes I combine them because there's a question, but there's a lot of, it's a very, very long question and I want to read it. So I'm going to read one right now that has come in from Mission.

Michelle, if you're listening. I'm going to read what you wrote. Here we go. Ready, folks? All right. Eric, I'm so thankful for your strength of conviction and your courage at this incredible time on planet Earth. I sent both my senior and assistant pastors your book letter to the American Church because I've been disappointed that there's been no mention at church when pivotal things are happening. in the world. No comment after Israel was attacked, not even lifting them up and praying for Israel. I was appalled. No comment at all after the assassination attempt on President Trump.

I could go on and on, but you get my point. I relocated from Los Angeles, California, to Charleston, South Carolina in 2021, retired 22. I began attending a wonderful conservative Presbyterian Church here. but my pastor remains silent on big and or political issues, and it truly bothers me. You say, get out, but I have listened to many sermons in my local area following those big and or political issues and events, and you know not a one of them had the gumption to stand up and plainly speak from the pulpit as to what had just taken place. My pastor actually said he would not speak on these things, but instead would preach only on Christ and his life, death, and resurrection.

I need my church body for love and support. And the folks at my new church are absolutely lovely, friendly, godly, and committed, but I'm left feeling like I'm here on this earth now. What can I as a Christian do now to best serve the cause for Christ? Where am I to go when so many churches are mute? I'd love your thoughts on this, Michelle. Wow. Well, I really have spoken about this a lot.

You know, ladies and gentlemen, I can't tell you. you what to do. But a lot of you go to these kinds of churches. I don't know what to say, honestly. I don't know what to say. I do know that this is how you lose America. I do know that this is how Germany went to hell. I do know that. And so when people say I go to church, I guess I want to question you, what is it that maybe, let me just say this. Maybe you need to be more challenging to your pastor. Maybe you need not to tithe to that church. Maybe you need to write a letter and say, you know, I'm going to attend, but I cannot

give God's money to you because I'm getting fed elsewhere on this issue. I need a pastor who is going to tell me how to live in these times. I mean, imagine if you're in a, you're living in communist China. and you go to some underground church. And the pastor says, well, we're not going to talk about anything that's controversial. We're not going to tell you how to live out your faith

in this hostile world or what to do. He'd say, what are you kidding? Like, we're being persecuted. You're not going to tell me, pastor, what to do. If you're living in a place where Islamic radicals want to kill you and burn your church down and kill your family, and your pastor says, well,

or I'm not called to talk about that. I'm just going to preach about Jesus. It's absurd. It's manifestly absurd, but that is what American pastors are doing. They think, and again, I've spoken about this so much, it's kind of pathetic, but they think they have a religious carve out. Like, they don't. Imagine, again, if you are going to a church in 1860,

and your pastor refuses to take. take a stand on the slavery issue. Do you understand you are complicit? Maybe you don't think that. You think that, oh, the pastor's doing it, but you're going to the church. You're maybe tithing God's money to a church that refuses to take a stand. Now, imagine that you read the scripture. It says, do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Jesus commands you. And you know that there are people that are in. enslaved that might because of your actions or the actions of your church be freed, slavery might be abolished, but you say, well, you know what, I'm not called to do unto those enslaved peoples as I would have others do. And that's not my calling. We're going to preach the gospel in our church. My pastor doesn't talk about that. Why is it so easy for you to condemn those people as not living out their faith? And yet you are yourself somehow a part of a system that says, well, we're doing church, we're doing some good stuff. I'd like to know what good stuff you're doing because if it doesn't

lead you to take action, if it's all this theological stuff, I don't really know, you know, what do you think God put us on this earth to do? I mean, if you can be silent in the face of all the evil that's happening, think of the suffering in the world. When you think of these kids that are being lied to about this trans nonsense, Everywhere you look, there's lies, there's deception, there's confusion, and you say, well, it's not my job. It is your job. It is your job. You just don't want to do the job.

I don't know. It's between you and the Lord, but I would tremble, honestly. We're at a time in the segment. We'll be right back with more Ask Mataxis. Folks, welcome back. We're doing some Ask Metaxus stuff here because people have written in. But the questions are long. they're really

so it's not like I can go down the list too quickly but I was just talking about you know we get this letter from Michelle and people say well what can I do none of the passages in my area talk about it I don't know

exactly what you can do but I know you cannot be complicit and I would say to a lot of people we do all now have these things called computers where you can listen to people who do talk about this. It doesn't need to be local. I don't really think God is going to judge you if you're listening to somebody who's preaching in California like Jack Hibbs. To get fed is to get fed. You know,

you could be going to some dead Catholic church where there's like a nine-minute homily on nothing where the priest is politically liberal and he doesn't talk about this. You can get fed by listening to good sermons online. And I've had many guests on this program who are really wonderful. You can get fed that way. I would say at least do that. I want to get to another question here. But to those of you who care about this, God bless you, folks, because the church, we really do have to wake up. And so many have woken up, but there's so many that they act like this is somebody else's problem. And they are going to churches for whatever reason. They always have a good excuse, right? There's a good youth group, or I like the worship or whatever. Like, all right, but, you know, we're in a war. This is serious.

Okay, here's another question. Eric, in listening to your interview with Beatty Carmichael, I was so stunned that he was describing how a demon can come into a Christian and control their body via pain and sickness. Well, we are filled with sealed by the Holy Spirit. So how do you explain that? Definitely, I understand that we backslide and we stumble, so we need to recognize. and admit that and repent. But nowhere does falling or stumbling remove God's seal of the Holy Spirit

to then allow demons to come in. All right. Is that biblical that we're sealed by the Holy Spirit? It's like it's a magic seal? I don't know. It doesn't strike me as perfectly biblical. It sounds like we need to look at that. But anyway, I'll continue.

Nor do I see in scripture saying we have to go back and remember and repent of each and every individual sin against each and every individual. Now there's something that you use. said, Eric, that made me go, wow, when you said mass healings would bring about a huge revival, that's what I've been praying about for a long time, healings to bring about a huge revival. Rick. Okay, so Rick, and Keith Jenta, weigh in if you feel like you want to, but I think a lot of the times Christians have misunderstandings of things. And so they'll say

things like, nowhere does falling or stumbling remove God. seal of the Holy Spirit to then allow demons to come in. And I just want to know, is that a biblical idea? Is that right? We're sealed by the Holy Spirit. What does that mean? I mean, I think that there are people that are assuming that there's like a seal. Like, I'm sealed by the Holy Spirit and that's it. And I think, well, what do you mean? We know that when you accept Jesus by faith, he comes to live inside us. Okay. So we are now saved. We know that we're saved. But what about this process of sanctification? What does that mean? I have heard many times that in the history of the early church, anybody who got saved would then go through a process of deliverance. Because the moment you are saved, I think that a lot of us bring baggage. into the faith. And so God invites us on a journey that begins with our salvation.

But the idea that you would not have, let's say, a wound that needs healing. So let's say inner healing, right? Let's say I was raped as a child. Let's say I had physical abuse by a parent that traumatized me, verbal, emotional abuse or whatever. There's all kinds of horrible ways that you, can have a wounding, a psychic wounding, psychic in the sense of soul, a soul wound that needs healing. Now, I know people who the moment they get saved, they're instantly delivered of an addiction. I know other people who the moment they get saved, they're not instantly delivered of the addiction.

And so they then need to seek healing by the power of the Holy Spirit. But it's not an automatic thing. It doesn't happen to everybody the moment you accept Jesus. And so I guess I take issue with Rick's assumption that this is so clear in the scripture that once the Holy Spirit comes in, I'm done, because that that's not quite right. And so what my guest, Betty Carmichael was talking about and my friend Ken Fish has talked about this, and I've seen it with my own eyes, that there are people that they believe in Jesus, but they haven't dealt with certain wounding, a certain baggage where there can be an attachment. And so some people get very upset about this. They go, no, no, no, I don't believe in that. but I only want to believe in what is real and true.

And just because you don't like something or something seems to get confusing, I mean, I think I want to try to understand it. Now, Keith, Jinta, I don't know if you have anything you want to say about this. Maybe you, because you know a lot about this. I agree with you in that. And look, we know that the power of God, father, son, holy spirit, far superior to any power of darkness. So, of course, yes, the presence of the Holy Spirit in a person's life is giving them a sense of authority and is giving them a sense of victory over this.

But I've always thought of it more in terms of pure biblical theology, that it's the blood of Jesus that protects us from the possession, so to speak, of the enemy. So I saw one of the other questions that came in on your conversation with Beatty cited Paul and his thorn in the flesh. Now, people don't often see that right there in the scripture, Paul says, a messenger from Satan. So it wasn't necessarily blurry eyes or some type of affliction that he had. It was a demon. It was a messenger. I want to be clear, it's not possession.

Yeah. But it is oppression, right? If the Holy Spirit lives inside you, this is clear. Satan cannot come and live inside you. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about oppression, which is different. We're going to have to carry this over into the next segment. But we're talking about oppression.

It's not possession. It's not that once I accept Jesus, Satan can come. No, no. You are, yes. You know, to that extent, you are sealed from, that. But there are woundings. There are psychic woundings. There's trauma. There are places where you need to forgive. You need to pray. That's the process of sanctification. That's a lifelong process.

That's a joy that begins the moment of our salvation. And that's why Paul called it a thorn in the flesh. Correct. We'll be right back. If you change your mind, take a chance. On the first in line, take a chance. On the on still free. Take a chance. Welcome back to we ask metaxus.

And so Keith, you and I've been describing, been talking about this question sent in to us from Rick. Anything else that you want to say about that? Well, right at the end of the segment there, we mentioned that Paul calls it a thorn in the flesh. So that's more exterior. That's more penetrating. It's oppressing, like you said, but it's not possessing and dwelling. on the inside. So that I think it's very clear that it's a messenger of Satan, but it also only made it

as far as the flesh, his carnal nature. This is not possession like you're saying. Okay, I'm glad you pull that out because I was not really tracking. That's exactly right. The flesh. So yes, the enemy can attack us in our flesh, but it's not able to get at our spirit. Again, you know, I mean, this brings up the larger question or the larger issue that I've been thinking about a lot lately about how God wants us to be spiritually mature. And it doesn't end with,

okay, I'm saved, now I'm done. Now we need discipleship. And I think that there are a lot of people that there's a lot of aspects to discipleship. But understanding spiritual warfare as a reality, there are a lot of Christians that kind of act like, nah, that's not, you know. And I think that is a reality. If you walk with God, there will be spiritual warfare. And to ignore that is just silly. It's just foolish. This doesn't mean you need to dedicate your life to it, but it's biblical, folks.

To walk with God, we're in a spiritual war. We're in spiritual battles. and anybody who has walked seriously with God over time knows this. This is real, but God calls us to the battle. He prepares us to the battle, but he wants us to be aware. He wants us to know how to do spiritual warfare. Not the president doesn't exist, but how to do it. And so one of the main things we can do, first recognize it,

and secondly, praise the Lord. when you feel you're attacked, when you feel at a loss, one of the things you can do to make the demons tremble and flee is praise Jesus. Praise him in the midst of your difficulty. Just do it. Like you're going to do push-ups or you're going to exercise or you're going to eat right. You're just do it because the scripture says, when I praise the Lord, when I praise him, that is spiritual warfare. And that is real. that is very, very real. And so I think that we want to be spiritually mature. Now, if you and I, because we went to St. Paul's and way back, you were there in the 70s, I was there in the 80s. This was normative. This was normative.

People understood this, this is a reality. And not everybody's going to get it exactly right, but to pretend that's kind of extra credit weird stuff. No, it's not. This is basic. You talk to anybody on the mission field. You talk to anybody in a country. where there is demonic oppression, where you're persecuted for your Christian faith, you realize this is real, but God calls us to this. And I think part of what's happening right now in the

American churches that there are people waking up to this. And that is a great thing, folks, to recognize the reality that when we're talking about, you know, transgender stuff, that's demonic. There's demonic stuff in our culture. And you cannot do anything about it unless you know who God is and what he calls us to do. And first of all, to know it for what it is, that there's all kinds of aspects to satanic oppression and influences. And if you kind of act like that stuff doesn't exist, there's no way you can do anything about it. You're stuck. So, hey, we're out of time. Folks, subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's just my name, Eric Dex's YouTube channel.

Check out Socrates in the city YouTube channel. Please subscribe. We appreciate it. God bless you.