The Exorcist Files - Dr. Sean Tobin On Deliverance, Spiritual Warfare and Psychology

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Dr. Sean Tobin is a clinical psychologist who has a unique practice- blending Christian spirituality into psychotherapy.Thank you to our sponsor!WIld Alaskan Co- Get $35 off your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episodeHeaven Meets Earth- - incredible stories of miraculous God interventions in our daily lives.Sean's Book- http://BigGODlittledevil.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome back to The Exorcist Files, the show that talks about a priest's tax returns. Now I'm just waiting. It's the show about spiritual warfare. That was for you, Jonathan. It's not a Ryan original. Believe it or not, someone else wrote that cringeworthy reference. But you know what's not cringeworthy? The fact that we are joined by Dr. Sean Tobin, an amazing clinical psychologist. I may get some of this wrong, but who has an extensive background experience in deliverance, mental health, psychology, is still holding down the fort in California somehow. So clearly his mental health is under investigation as well and suspect. Please welcome to the program, Dr. Sean Tobin.

Sean, thanks for being here. Ryan, it's an honor. You're hilarious. I'm excited. Let's go. I get that, right? I know there's psychotherapists. They're psychologists.

There's psychiatrists. There's therapists. Clinical psychologist. Yeah, but that's important to say you have a doctor. I do. Actually, I do. Yeah. And it's not from the school of Ardnox, right?

No, well, a little bit of that. I got a BS degree once. Oh, man. Don't be started on BS degrees, right? Well, we're going to get to all things deliverance, but we are testing out a new segment on the show today. Sean, are you ready to play Protestant or Catholic? Oh, yeah. Do I have to choose a side?

No, you don't, actually. I'm going to give you three quotes and you get to tell me, did a Protestant say this or did a Catholic say this? All right. Go ahead. I love this. I love this. Okay. quote number one, I would rather die than do something which I know to be a sin or to be against God's will.

Catholic or Protestant? Well, I mean, that could be either, but I'm not to say Protestant. That was actually St. Joan of Arc. Wow. Yeah. I was thinking Bonhoff or something like that. So that was Catholic. Okay.

No points on the board yet. Okay, we'll get another one here. Okay. Have a holy hour every week. start praying, pray for guidance, and trust in God. I always say it's Catholic. It's Fulton gene. Close.

No. It might be, you know what? Here's the thing. I have it listed under here as St. John Viani, but maybe Fulton Shee referenced it. We also know with my AI aggregation of these quotes, it could be wrong, but you're right. It is Catholic. So either way. Fultzine coined the Holy Hour stuff.

I mean, my body would want to do it too. Okay. Last quote. A Bible that's fallen apart usually belongs to someone who isn't. Oh, that's a good one, right? Wow. A mic drop line like that, having to do the Bible, definitely something a Protestant would say. That's right.

That is attributed to Urgin. Yes, I got it. Congratulations, right? Welcome. All right, folks. We hope you enjoyed Protestant or Catholic Hour. And anyways, I'm going to try and we'll see how that goes over with the fans. We'll get into that.

So you got to lighten it up, right? Because actually, maybe that's a good starting question, Dr. Tobin, is that, like, how important is laughter in this crazy thing we call life? information. How important is having a sense of humor about everything? Oh my gosh. Well, you know, obviously we'll segue into that later, but, you know, I think it's so important to, to reclaim that childlikeness in our life, right? We want to grow old and be that childlike person. Jesus said to become like a child and children play. Children are joyful. Children laugh. It's, I think it's so important. It's the best medicine. Laughter is the best medicine. Yeah. Except for really, really.

cool life-saving drugs, which also are the best medicine. They can be good, I heard. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I remember when I had surgery on my knee and I said, laughter is not helping right now, Doc, I'm going to need something. I'm going to need a little stronger. Get those balloons away from me, Doc. All right, well, this is actually your sophomore appearance on the X-Files.

I wanted to have you about a new book that's coming out. And you have a really interesting line of work. Would you refresh the fans on your experience, especially, not only your background and your spiritual background, but also as it pertains to exorcism and deliverance. Sure, absolutely. My background, I was an atheist for over 10 years of my life, had a pretty radical conversion, went into religious life for a time, studied philosophy theology at Franciscan University in Stumville before going on to grad school in clinical psychology.

Big shift from religious life to more of a lay vocation, but through it all, the Lord was teaching me about healing, inner healing, deliverance. I started to witness different things, different manifestations, at different events. And so he always kind of put this thought in my head, this curiosity about what's happening there. And when I got into the world of psychology, I was asking a lot of questions about that integration between demonic and mental illness and didn't really find a lot of answers. So it turned into really my doctoral dissertation. It was entitled, Exorcism, Deliverance, and Psychotherapy from a Catholic,

like Christian perspective. And it was like this comprehensive literature review. So everything that's been in the databases and out there. And so just really trying to understand more. And really, to me, it's a sign of the Lord, like a calling, you know, that people just started to be sent to me after I got my license and started, you know, practicing here at the Divimery Clinic. And I had a really good relationship with Bishop Dave O'Connell at the time before he passed

away. And people who were suffering from different kind of demonic stuff or see. making ectracisms or needing evaluations for one or, you know, accompaniment alongside it started being referred to me. And the biggest thing was that I found when I sat with people and even with what was happening in the manifestations and I mean, sometimes it was really intense, you know, people, you know, streaking and moving around in the office. And for some reason, they usually sit in that chair right there. I don't know what it is about that chair in particular. So if I sit down that chair, is that one of your diagnostics? Please have a seat, Ryan.

And if I sit in that chair, that's indicative. That's like an early sign. Yeah. I just sat with what was happening, relationally, you know, connecting with emotions. And it led us to places of brokenness in their lives. And really just it was through communion rather than through confrontation that people

were experiencing freedom. And I bring the Lord into my therapeutic work through very, you know, trauma sensitive, emotionally, you know, informed kind of prayer models. So I, it's just a beautiful thing to witness. happen. And yeah, so I get the different ways of helping people. You've also been involved in helping various folks. I would maybe not say the diocese per se, but you've been involved in helping the Catholic Church assess and kind of treat folks, right, for potential exorcism because the church relies on experts, right? So you've offered expert opinion on that. I have provided counsel to

different religious and pastors and people who have maybe referred people to me, but currently in in Los Angeles, the diocese. It's not very well established yet a way to support people who are seeking support. Better in Orange County and some other diocese. So I think that's something that's a work in progress and actually having some conversations right now about what that could look like here.

But it was just more of my relationship with Bishop Dave at the time. It was like, you know, they were going to him. So he was coming over for coffee and eggs on the weekend and, you know, tell me about someone else he wanted me to see. I'm curious. I want to start off with,

you know, again, maybe this is something that for any new listeners, et cetera, who are like, this all just sounds like hogwash and really, demons, et cetera. This is just crazy. And yet you can say that maybe you could address this from even a medical standpoint that as a doctor, you have an obligation to help someone. Even if you don't believe in the spiritual component, it sounds like from your book and your work as well, you could argue that a lot of the practices we'll talk about today, whether it's sacraments and prayer and worship, et cetera.

They also work at a physical level, at a neuro-neurological level, right? Absolutely. Well, on the one hand, it's all crazy. I mean, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we're lunatics, right? It's all crazy. This world is not something you can empirically prove by science alone. It does require faith, right? The existence of demons. I mean, we can have some pretty, I mean, it seems like some pretty clear proof when someone's levitating or whatever might be, but, man, people are skeptics, and it's just, it's sad. But the reality is that, you know, we are body, soul, and spirit. And so we live in a world that is connected to all three, right? And we are, we're not separate natures, body and soul. We make all things one. And human nature is this amazing, you know, incarnational thing, right? And the reality is, since the garden, and it's just God's creation,

just like there's bacteria that can make us sick. There's demonic entities in the world that interact with us in a different plane, you might say, and more a spiritual plane through the soul. It's through suggestions through the mind. It's psychological in nature. And it's immaterial. But there's often, you know, an interplay because man is the gateway of heaven. We're meant to have the authority over all of creation.

So there's this crossover between the demonic world and creation through the authority Satan stole from us. That's why Jesus called them unclean spirits because it was breaching a boundary they weren't meant to cross. You know, there's absolutely this interplay. But still, it's through the way of suggestion and stolen authority. All right. So, Dr. Walk us through the difference between mental health ailments or just the broken psyche. We all as humans have insecurities, narcissism, anxieties. We have terrible thoughts, you know, and maybe that's just part of the broken nature we have,

versus that when someone is oppressed or afflicted by demons and how that might manifest similarly, but is still a different pathology. To me, I've sensed a difference between what is natural and what is demonic in the reaction to really the presence of love. When there's healing happening, when God's present, especially, when there's something happening in the person's life that is good. in a sense. And when there's brokenness, there's often, there's fear, there's weakness to trust.

You know, there's lots of things in our brokenness. But when there's the demonic at work, there's often these unconscious suggestions that are at play that show up like active resistance against God seeking to heal something or to connect. So it's more of this sense of an active resistance against God. in his ways. So what's an example of that? Well, before Jesus had the reputation and people could just touch his clothes and his, you know, his ministry became a lot more efficient. You know, he was just a guy in the temple. And, but when he spoke with authority and everyone, there was like a corporate manifest, everyone was amazed. A man was provoked. A demonic, a demon spoke,

right? It was that part of the man that was provoked, too, to his authority. And that, As we know, sometimes in our spiritual life, God speaks in one of two ways. The other speaks words of consolation or he convicts. It depends on what side of our ego we're on, really. And so there's a part of that guy in that moment that it was like all or nothing. And he was provoked. And a demonic spirit was there because a part of it was demonic, a lie. Therefore, it had active resistance against the authority of God. Are you saying that when something encounters the truth like or something that elicits a reaction. I mean, could you maybe give us an example from like your clinical practice? Say a patient comes in and they're concerned that they're having obsessive thoughts,

which humans can have. Yeah. Right. Like that's a humans can we can, their psychoses, right, they can result in us fixating and having or there are, you know, there are hardware problems we can have in our minds, right? But how would you help that person to land if you're like, actually, I think this might be more demonically motivated. Is there an example we could parse out there? Right. Totally. It can be the hardware. be the software. Absolutely. It can be bacteria. It can be demons, different kinds of parasites, right? And of course, there's a different way to treat each one according to its nature. And so for me, I, when someone comes in and they're suffering, whether it's because they're having nightmares

at night or demons are shouting at them or they're whatever, anxious. First thing I want to do is like, I want to connect with, what is that like for you? What is that like for you? I want to know, a scare from 1 to 10, how significant is that fear? I want to know really what they're going through, right? And I find in the process, especially when someone who is experiencing a lot of demonization,

is simply sitting with the person, you know, how long has he been like this? As Jesus asked, the epileptic boy's father, right? sitting with the person brought this kind of connection and revelation or healing was able to start to happen and then it just allows these moments where you can go to these places of healing in someone's life that are somehow associated with the influence or the metaphor of whatever is happening in this spiritual demonic battle and then all of a sudden the demonic stuff loses its grip because the foot hold was just healed, you know?

So what would that be like? So it sounds like your, and this sounds like that old adage, like, you know, people don't know, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And so is that,

and it sounds like it may not just be even a spiritual thing. I'm starting with empathy, but would you say, so you'd sit down, yeah, stay, I'm coming to your practice. And I am terrified. I'm awake at night because I'm so nervous

about all the fans that are mad, that I only do one episode a week. And it's driving me now. Ryan, I'm so disappointed, dude. Yeah. So you would start with, Shame, obviously.

No, so if I came in tortured by some thought, though, or just a fear that's keeping me up. And I'm just so nervous. I have a good friend who's just terrified. They're going to just die one day. And I'm like, you will. But not, you know, how do you, it's your. Yeah, but you're saying you would sit with that person and just try and ask questions. And then would you just empathize with them and say, I am.

First and foremost, and that kind of gets into the strategies of the enemy, right? As we know, the enemies just puts thoughts in our mind. That doesn't put them in our mind. he's like that pastor by he's trying to get your attention by shouting something out, right? You know, did God say did God say you can't eat any of these things?

You know, it's us who buy the bait and get drawn into conversation, right? So first and foremost, though, I would, yeah, I would empathize that this person is up at night and regardless of the source of, of it, whether it's demonic, whether it's because of sleep apnea,

or whatever it might be. I want to just stay close and attuned to the person. I really believe that's how Jesus ministered and what gave him so much efficacy in this ministry. It wasn't just the fact that he had a reputation and there was faith and supernatural stuff around him. It was the way in which he walked. He amazed people and everything he did,

the way he spoke, the way he just touched people. He was so attuned to people. He saw people. And he knew it was in their hearts. and it was just that ability to connect. And more than anything, you know, we talk a lot about stewarding faith in healing ministries. What I see Jesus do is he brings hope. He brings hope so that people might risk to trust and have faith.

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Exactly. So you got to start with that. And then from that place of just connection and trust, if it's a spiritual thing, if they're sensing demons in the room, actually, this might be a really good segue, if I could, for the book cover. Because on the book cover, you can see this hand, you know, squishing this demon.

My son had such an experience. He was about four years old, which might be, you know, normal for kids to have a fear of the dark. But at night, he couldn't go to sleep and he was crying out.

Dad, I'm scared. I'm scared of the dark, scared of the shadows. And I go to his room. I'm like, okay, what is it, buddy? He says, I see demons. There's demons in my room.

And in that moment, I could have rebued them. I could have, ask for the legions of heaven to fill the room. I could have just sung praise and worship. I could have, I could have just reassured him or even just invalidated him.

I could have done lots of different things, right? But instead, what I did was have asked him, why does that make you feel afraid? You know, why does the thought of demons in the room make you feel afraid? Well, because they're going to eat me. A little four-year-old, right? They're going to eat me.

Okay, well, why are you afraid of that? Well, because then I'm going to be, I'm going to die. Okay, well, well, you know, this is, I'm a psychologist, so this is probably a little bit torturous for a four-year-old. Yeah, your four-year-old, you're actually your number one patient now, right? Oh, dude, I'm going to be very cooperative with his own therapy someday. Anything he needs to be apologized for? I'm there. You imagine just be like trying to talk to your dad about something.

Like, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that sounds like a father issue. Just kidding. Yeah, well, yeah, so you know, you're basically goodwill hunting him and basically like. Oh, dude. And the last question, though, was, but how does it, why does it make you feel afraid that you die? And so he said, this sort of four-year-old's heart. because then I'd be alone.

He wouldn't know how to relate to us or something, you know? And I just sensed the sadness in that little boy's heart. So I was like, okay, Lord, that's it. Lord, were this little boy afraid of the dark and demons and death because he doesn't want to be alone? What do you want him to know? And he had this image of God, and he was this little boy in God's giant hand,

just sitting in God's hand, and with God's other hand, He reached over and squished the demons like a bug. And my son laughed and he said, Thank you, Daddy. And he rolled over and went to bed. And he never had a problem since dealing with a fear of the dark. And so you ask me, how do you help people with a fear of the dark?

Well, or any kind of issue with their sleep. Again, depends on what it is. If it's demonic, if it's psychological, there's a kind of reframing and redemption that can happen, especially if it's demonic and spiritual in nature, then we know that on the other side of that, God is playing the devil. He's creating an opportunity for you to grow because, you know, he throws our sparring partner at us because he's bringing us into a new level of strength and maturity. He actually has something, a revelation in the trial for us, hidden in it. And so it's really just stepping into that and recognizing it when the temptation in trial is happening.

What is it about? So I love this starting with empathy and just like asking like a Jurassic rather than freaking out. Right. Because that's part of us. When you come to a parent with anything, right, I always love that one. We all value things differently. And so when the other person's like, don't worry about it. Right.

It's going to be okay. Whatever it is. right, that can be either imperating because you're like, what, you know, and like, let's pause on that. But what is it about the human mind and from your studies? I'm curious in the science and literature, what is it about human beings that is, it makes it so effective to, quote, see someone, to like look at them, to acknowledge them. Like, you see that, like, I see.

So I've heard of the clinical therapeutic standpoint, but what do you think is going on there? Why is it so helpful? Because I will say, honestly, it's like kind of like a guy's guy. I sometimes glue that like, I see you feels like, all right, like, you know, but obviously it feels good. But like at a core level, it seems like I'm wrong and the data is like really over like pretty clear. Like, yeah, like acknowledging and empathizing with another human being is so therapeutic.

Why is that? I think it takes us back to childhood, you know, when we come out of the womb, we were like symbiotic with mom. And it's this exposure to seeing usually. Well, we're starting to recognize a separation. And I guess when you ask that question, my mind went to one of the first places that children learn self-control and boundaries is by their eyes. That they can, if they're overstimulated, they can look away and they can look back. They can look away, they can look back.

You know, the whole object permanence thing is they're kind of experimenting with not being overstimulated by someone. Everyone's trying to get in their face all the time, making it, you know, it's a little bit. You know, it's a little baby. And so their boundary is, I got to look away from this lady, you know. I just think fundamentally there's something about seeing and being seen, letting yourself be seen and seeing into the other. And there's nothing like intimacy and being seen by a parent. And ultimately, I think the way that we come to know ourselves is the way that others see us. You asked me kind of a philosophical question there, bro.

I love it. Well, this is the show for it. So you've been known, when we had you on the show last time, I mean, you've kind of, I would say rustled feathers, but it's funny. In deliverance, there is, what I appreciate so much about doing the show of Father Martins is that it's very much that, hey, like, there are rock solid first principles of exorcism, which is that, you know, God is in charge, infinitely more powerful. You shouldn't have demon problems. But if you do, it's, there's something they've lashed on to. And then there's not necessarily one right way to get rid of all them. And also it's very Holy Spirit led of like, God, what do you want to do?

And I love this about his approach. Like, what do you, I'm listening for what God wants to do with this person in this moment. No one size fits all. Other than it seems like the general answer, the more Jesus, the better. But I'd say, you know, you had some contrarian thoughts, which I thought were very interesting to you because I appreciate your perspective, which is that in our culture, we tend to right now at least like really overplay like, oh, demons are affording me at every turn. I'm so scared. And you're like, hey, you're wanting to be a voice to remind people, hey, you walk in this authority as a baptized, you know, child of God.

And we're never told to be afraid of demons. We're told to be aware. So maybe you could kind of walk us a little through that tension. Because I love Paul's very kind of middle of the road on this, right? Like, be aware. There's spiritual war. You are in a war. Yeah.

You are in a war. And they do sometimes store you. And also, I'm going to turn my friends or my colleagues over to Satan for discipline. Yeah, you don't tell that to your four-year-old, by the way. Oh, yeah, we're going to turn them over. Yeah, we just, God's going to use them to, you know, prune you. Hey, I might say that to my daughter's boyfriends, but we'll see. That's right.

Well, that's another thing. So, yeah, maybe walk us through a little bit about that tension between never told the fear, demons in scripture, but also to be aware. Yeah, well, I think it's kind of like this. When the disciples came back rejoicing that they had authority, even over the evil spirits, right, in Jesus' name, that just like he does, so many times is he doesn't rebuke us for anything, you just reframes things. And you say, rejoice rather that your name is written in heaven, right?

So it's like, when people are being trained to identify counterfeit currency, then they are trained to study the real so thoroughly. They know the real so thoroughly that the counterfeit stands out by contrast. Jesus is really redirecting us if our names are written in heaven. It's not about a power struggle, it's about our identity. and where our joy he's even rooted too, our delight. It's not an exercise of power, you know? And so he's really bringing us to this place of resting and trusting and abiding in his authority.

That makes sense. I mean, that's probably why it's so important for us to anchor ourselves in the truth and the word. I am. I really want to double click on this too just because we get so many emails from people who are genuinely seeking help. And it's tough, right, because they hear our show and they go, okay, finally, someone believes that I may have something beyond a medical problem, right? And it may be both, right? But if it is spiritual, et cetera, and obviously full disclaimer, you're not an exorcist or clergy, but you do work with a lot of therapeutic sense, and you are a practicing Christian and a Catholic who will pray

for people and ask people if they're open to it, you know, well, obviously is influenced by a spiritual perspective. But can you walk with you, just like, again, using that person who comes into your practice, you've empathized with them now. What's the next step to try and get at? Is this psychological, spiritual, whatever? is yeah well ultimately if it's spiritual it's still psychological because it's relational and you know the demons are suggestors ultimately and even scripture points to the idea that possession is not truly ownership it still is in a by way of influence and you know our agency is not completely lost and and so there's a demonic influence there and so when i meet with people after we empathize

after we kind of make that connection i really want to understand like what is it about and if there's fear? Like, what does that look like? What is the worst case scenario? As someone's struggling with OCD, you know, or really, there's obsessive kind of thoughts, usually it's something that's going to be found out, I'm going to feel ashamed, people are going to reject me, I'm going to end up alone and stuck. And it's almost like this metaphor of like hell. And that there's somebody they're even going to face God and there's this moral component, even washing their hands all of a sudden, you know, and so it's this terrible thing. But I find actually it's helpful. just to name it, just to share it, bring it into the light.

And that in itself is disempowering. And I love using metaphors or really prophetic language or parables, either through sharing a dream that you had that can actually be very meaningful, that, you know, connects us with parts of our psyche and as well as God trying to, you know, initiate a conversation, as well as, I mean, Jesus spoke in parables because it gives us insight into things. And we're so complex in our brokenness that we, almost need just something so powerful, like a certain story that just remold us, you know? I guess that's the gospel.

I'm curious, is OCD traditionally, is that have roots in a physiological component as well? Very strongly both, a lot of evidence that it's both. Yeah, OCD as well as like schizophrenia, like those ones have a lot of genetic and neurological components. That's where medication can help a lot. But fundamentally, you know, where there's a weakness for anyone, there's just an opportunity to, or challenge to grow, sometimes to practice a skill. Like, if you can't walk on a left leg, well, you're going to have to learn how to do certain

things, right? And so there's some mindset training, really, that you can do. And ultimately, we're called all of us to just take every thought captive and make it beating to Christ and to get the help that we need. No, and I want to ask, asking for a friend here, right? We've heard some new Noma Clay around ADHD as being neurodivergent. You know, there's, are there, is it plausible to that some, Because obviously, I have dear friends who struggle with OCD, and it can be, like, they've really

confided, like, and it's been horrible. Also, sometimes shame in taking medicine. And it's funny because, like I mentioned, having my surgery, there was no shame in taking painkillers to get me through that period. And I was like, if you had something wrong, like, you know, you got to help it. But do you think that some of these psychoses, too, that, you know, we wrestle with, et cetera, like ADHD, ADHD, for example, is it true that sometimes if God allows for an overindexing in one area that sometimes can confer benefits?

It's like, yeah, I'm wondering, like, is it true that there may be benefits, like, to reframe it. It sucks to be caught in a doom loop, but folks who sometimes struggle with this can exhibit benefits in other areas. It's like schizophrenics in some cultures, people who really struggle with schizophrenia, become the shamans and the seers because they believe that somehow they're more open to that other abstract spiritual world. There's less of a filter, you might say. And they've learned to, you know, decipher a have some degree of wisdom.

you know, whatever. There still can be intelligence in the midst of it all. And so, yeah, I do think that there's weaknesses and strengths, right, in everything. But, yeah, when it comes to ADHD, that's a whole Pandora's box because I do think that there's been this whole cultural fad and reaction and a label. But, you know, as we're talking about this and this fear of a label, a fear of mental illness, right, especially if something becoming neurological. that can seem so binding and fatalistic, you know.

Although I think people have more confidence sometimes in there being a physical healing miracle and something like that, sometimes then mental illness is scary to people, you know, true mental illness. It's just all in the mind. It's scary. If it's not biological, it's scary. And in some ways, you know, even the shame and the fear that helps us all relate to those that are suffering. from demonization. Because there's often a shaming that happens to those that are suffering in that form because it's like, I mean, the tendency is to think like the disciples did.

Who's sin? This person or their parents, right? There's some hidden sin. They're a prisoner. Not just a captive. They're a prisoner. There might be something wrong. Where do they screw up?

They're being punished. And they're not seeing the bigger stories that we all have a kind of therapy of illness and suffering in this life. whether it's biological, physical, spiritual, mental, because the Lord is just introducing us into the cross. He's breaking open those hard parts of our hearts, and he is molding us. And so I just like to welcome when people come to my sessions, you know, and they're experiencing that kind of stuff.

I just welcome into the room. And that's first and foremost, that's actually been transformative. Even just the very fact that manifestations are happening and you're just letting it happen in the room, like don't try to hold it back. Like let it out. Let it out here. You know, they're like shrieking in the chair and talking in some Italian or whatever it might be. And you're just saying like let it out.

Just like let it out. That itself is a shift because internally in every single person that manifests, there's like this inner conflict around trying to get it to stop. They don't want it. They don't want to stop. Part of them is in conflict with it. So to hear someone say, let it out here. That's okay. It's very counterintuitive.

But I think it begins to, you know, allow things to show. shift. And yeah, there was this one time where this guy, man, he just, he, we have this experience where he saw this demon in his mind and he saw his mind was almost like this city. And the demon was on top of this highest tower, the highest tower in the city. And this guy is like, he's in between manifesting and having his eyes closed, just kind of processing this with me. And, as he sees this demon on the highest tower, we just, I just ask the Lord how he wants to begin to meet him here. And Jesus is walking into the city and the demon shriek. And then we ask him again, another couple of steps, and they shriek and they're doing different things. And demons are

coming from all over the place and trying to attack and lights, you know, step by step. It's like the most epic. But get to this point where Jesus is standing over this demon, which now at this point he recognizes is also a part of himself that he has rejected. That the demon has really been operating from, you know? And it's alone now, just this one last demon at this tower. And Jesus is just standing and he puts his hand on the demon and this man's head, right? And so in my office, I stood up and I asked first permission. We have a good relationship, trust and all the stuff. And all I did was I put my hand on his head so that I could kind of live out for in that moment kind of connecting with the body as like a living sacramental right what was happening to him what

he was so deeply experiencing spiritually emotionally mentally and i was so here i am a lay guy i know i'm a lay guy i do nothing but when i see the father doing okay but i'm just like i'm just a lay guy my hands on this guy's head he's shrieking demons flying out of him and i'm seeing as he's saying it because my imagination is just so locked in with what he's saying step by step. My hands is on his head, and it's just causing more demons to, you know, flood out of this place. That's happened before. That's happened before. And unexpected, but it all started with just sitting with someone's experience in the midst of the manifestation rather than confronting itself.

And then really giving God space to show up and just walk with it, you know. Sometimes different deliverance folks will have, you know, maybe critiques for other. people's practices and I all want to make, you know, very clear, you're not an exorcist and you're just helping people in a therapeutic setting, but is there any, have you ever faced any criticism for kind of the way you do? I mean, you're not doing, would you say you're doing deliverance? You're doing therapy that has maybe a deliverance component to it? Yeah. So for me, I mean, I have good informed consent, but directly, I'm a Catholic psychologist, or Christian psychologist who's, you know, Catholic. And so that's first for me.

And, you know, healing starts, begins and ends with Christ. And so from the start, and I mean, I got a lot of pictures in my office and everything. You know, I'm explicit with the fact that, you know, this is a space where we're going to bring that part of our being in, right? Because a relationship with God is not just spiritual, it's relational, psychological, right? And so I'm not, I'm really not suggesting things to people either. If anything, I write, relate to scripture sometimes and ask questions. but for the most part I'm really just staying with what people are bringing forward

in their pain and like a lot of therapeutic techniques do like EMDR or even IFS where they identify parts of people and learn how to kind of dialogue internally and sit with the memories that come up and kind of do that trauma work or reprocessing of narratives

and all those kinds of things. So I kind of do that but at the same time just simply invite the Lord to respond rather doing an empty chair technique with that projection of your mom? You know, what if we just ask Jesus how he wants to meet you right now?

And wait, because I believe he wants to speak to us and he shows up. And ultimately, when it comes to deliverance, when we're talking about believers who are demonized, you know, these aren't people who are pagans that are just hearing the gospel for the first time and it's like the demonstration of, you know,

Jesus being received. These are believers. the reality is, you know, there's a part of their heart that needs conversion, that needs to be evangelized, not just catechized. And the Lord wants to meet us in an area when there's a manifestation. Something is getting provoked. And he's inviting us to look at that. This is a weird question, but would you say that any, because obviously the Apostle Paul speaks as if we are all targets like every day. Like it's.

And it seems like from what I'm hearing from you and a lot of other deliverance experts too is that, typically when we sin, it's because we do have a void. We've chosen like an expediency over God's truth. So there's a hole that we're filling. And the more gaps, the more holes in our lives, the more opportunity for demons to occupy those things. Right. And so talking about replacing that hole with the truth of God and getting rid of the demonic counterfeit. You know, would you say that it's a safe bet that anyone, no matter how healthy their upbringing,

their life, et cetera, is probably has some, you know, and not to scare people, but probably has some trauma. or something, right, has probably partnered with some lies, right? And it's generally a best practice for any human to go through the work of just asking and taking inventory. Because I think about in the early church, you couldn't join the church without getting now. They did a ceremonial exorcism. But I wonder, as we've grown in our awareness of this, is it just a healthy thing that

all Christians constantly take inventory and say, where am I believing false lies or lie? The program of being a cat of cumin was a little bit drawn out in the early church too, right? where, but the community was so much more lively and praying together and so it was a little bit different than it is today. I would start with this. Jesus was tested, was tempted, right? Job was tested. But it wasn't because of his failure or because of his vulnerability or because of any kind of woundedness. It was because God was making proof of his faith, right?

He was making something greater than what was coming against them. Jesus was reclaiming territory for humanity, of course, right? Job was also, you know, and he was being pruned in a mighty way, you know, in the story of a soul, and everything was multiplied later. So it's not just because, oh, and even that shows, we do tend to have a bias that what's broken in this person for that to be there. Yeah, and there's something, but there's something in all of us. We're all born with a certain lack of being. And we're all born with original sin. And, man, I haven't met a holy family truly in some way, you know, like the holy family.

But even then, I bet Joseph was a piece of work, you know. What are the common lies that you think? I mean, obviously, we all have our own unique traumas experience. The general human experience, I'm going to guess one is I'm not enough, right? I'm not loved. I'm actually alone. I'm even though I'm just feeling lonely. Yeah.

Not good enough. I can't get over it or I'm I qualified myself right but you know what in all of those things those certain states of being that they lead you into like if I'm alone my state of being is it's dark everyone else is far away like as a state of being it brings you into having a belief like that right so for me I like to start with this because I mean dude I've sulked in self-pity and depression and lots of stuff for a long time and I got an expert at rationalizing myself into a hole like that, you know? But I start with this. In that worldview and those beliefs and those places, we have an image of God. And I really see that it comes down to kind of three things.

We either see God is angry with us, God is distant or God is weak. And when we can confront that even in those thoughts, like, okay, he's screwed up. Great. Whatever. He's an amazing Redeemer. And guess what? He already knew you were going to do that. when he called you. He's not intimidated. He's not scandalized. He's really confident, and he's a good shepherd because he's good of shepherding.

It's like, what next, right? So, and this actually gets back to spiritual warfare in general. I find the big shift. It's the Satan and fear and fighting and struggling and trying to be holy, all these stuff. So often, you know, when we fail and fall

and accusing comes, like it turns us inward, right? We get discouraged. but praise turns us upward. I think that's the big shift that needs to start happening more and more for people. Because even in this, if God is those three things, just in angry or weak, if we can confront that in our experience and start experiencing him as strong,

as present, as loving, I mean, that resets everything. Yeah, so what are things that are best practices for any Christian, no matter what, that help us fight evil in our lives and actually help us have optimal mental

health. And like, you could start doing this today. I can't get into my therapist until next week, but what can I do as a Christian right now? I know I can pray. What else? So for me, it's really about being consecrated, set apart, right? And God is consecrating us in him, that we are now in Christ, and it's living that way. And so from the moment that we wake up in the morning to the moment that we would go to bed at night, it's about starting to live more intentionally, this set apart in Christ, living for Christ, right? Living by faith in the Son of God, because we have died in him, right? And I'll live for him. And so I like what you mentioned about sacramentals for Catholics or worship, maybe, or more scripture reading for Protestants in a sense, which I think, you know, obviously, it's good

for all of us, and we have a lot of common ground. In my book, I do talk about like a model of walking, leaping, and praising God based on the man at the beautiful gate who was walking, leaping, and praising as he went into the temple. And it's this full healing, body, soul, spirit. And I do believe there's a wisdom to starting with the body. Children learn to pray beginning from concrete to move to abstract. And so one thing is I actually really encourage people to start to develop more of a sacramental lifestyle, rhythm in their day-to-day for the purpose not of magically changing things,

but creating an opportunity for moments of connection with God. because that's what it's about. It's about creating moments where we can turn, we can be aware, we can be reminded, whether it's picking up a rosary and being reminded that I'm loved, like, through a mother's love, a perfect mother's love. Or like in worship, when it bypasses that intellectual, sometimes defense that we can have and can touch us both physically because of the vibrations, but also our hearts of the message and so much of a music is emotion, it's a way of connecting.

All these things are just tools and places where encounter can happen, but it still relies on the Lord really showing up, right? And so I just like to encourage people to live intentionally, to live a consecrated lifestyle like that. And sacramentals help do that. It's kind of like living out the fullness of what the sacraments make us like. I mean, Jesus prayed multiple times a day, according to the Jewish tradition.

To me, deliverance, I see deliverance in a broader framework where it's like, yes, there's moments, but it's not just an event, it's a process. Yes, we're taken out of Egypt and Pharaoh is kind of dealt with, enemies dealt with by the waters of baptism, like the Red Sea, right? But we still are in this process of Egypt being taken out of us as we journey with the Lord through the promised land, through the desert, into the promised land, into really life in Christ, which is what it really pointed towards. Because it really wasn't about territory.

It was about a place of intimacy with God. And so I think that we're kind of in that season of refinement and purification and pilgrimage in a lot of our lives. And so deliverance is not just, you know, one thing for some people who got their hands dirty or have a demon. In some sense, it's kind of a process we're all into, sometimes a little bit more explicitly with the demon. stuff for scorpions and snakes or not.

Can you, as we land on the plane here, I want to ask you, could you share one, a testimony or a story of someone who was really suffering from demonic issues, just like your son, and like maybe something dramatic for the person who's like, I've been dealing this a long time, I've been to my priest, I've been, you know, I just, I'm not ready to accept that I'm just the blessed demoniac, you know, that I'm suffering. But is there something you can show, hey, I've seen this out. I've seen people with the most awful, you know, just issues and psychoses that have just radically seen improvement and healing and just, and who's doubting the ability for God to be able to

deal with this stuff. So, big story. I want to just preface it with this. I believe that, again, for believers who are starting to have manifestations in their life that kind of can emerge at a time in their life for different reasons, sometimes it's more of something that we walk out in discipleship and the healing journey. it's not like a major thing like with early evangelization you know some kind of confrontation right you know you want like a demonic story do you want like you know inner healing story it was both

it was both here do people get people all right well you know what okay there was a guy i worked with for a while for over like two and a half years and he was in his 60 early 60s and he had this very sad kind of rejecting, poor self-esteem. I always talked about how his inner child was neurotic and narcissistic, and his wife resented him, and his children resented him. It just seemed like this sad, weak man. This guy felt like he was being tortured by the enemy. And this guy is a faithful, Catholic man, you know, he loves us into Father Rueberger. You know, he prays the rosary daily, goes a daily mass, and this guy is just living in this state of judgment, really. He comes in one day, late for session,

and he apologized because he had some irritable boughs. So I asked him as he came into a session, I'm like, okay, well, I was curious. Do you feel irritable boughs a lot? I mean, partially because I can relate. And compassion is a good place to start. But he said, yeah, I do. Ever since I was young. But I had this connection.

It's like, do you feel it especially when you're depressed? And he's like, yeah, especially when I'm depressed. And so I had him sitting with these two things of feeling super depressed and irritable brows, just sitting with those two aspects of his experience. And a memory came to mind of when he was a kid in early middle school or late grade school. And back then they didn't have stalls in the doors when they had to go to the bathroom. and so he would hold it in all day instead of pooping at school

because there would be these bullies in the bathrooms that would pick on the kids. So when he'd get home, they'd have dinner as a family, he'd have these stomach aches that were so intense he'd have to run to the bathroom. Those kids alone, he's thinking he's dying, like excruciating pain

that's happening every day because of the stupid fear of these bullies in the bathroom because he didn't want to poop. Anyways, that memory came in mind. and so we just asked Jesus, Lord, where do you want to meet us with this? Immediately, we saw the Lord sitting on the edge of the bathtub, sitting in front of this little boy, in front of this man, you know,

whose love this narrative of his little child, you know. And Jesus is holding a toilet roll with one hand and just kind of gently like rubbing his back, you know, patting his shoulder with the other like he's alone and like he'll get through it, just breathe. And he starts asking questions. He's just having a chat with this little kid. Just that kind of tenderness that Jesus was there with him. You know, just the fear melted. And he had a memory actually that came to mind of one time he did poop. But there was this guy named Charlie, big old Charlie. And none of the bullies picked on Charlie because he was huge and they didn't want to, they didn't dare. But Charlie was quirky and he liked my client. And

there was one time my client was pooping and Charlie was just hanging out. But in that moment, he saw that as the Lord. The Lord had sent Charlie to keep guard so he could poop in peace. And that was really showing how God has always been with him to protect him. Anyways, silly memory, probably really inappropriate. My wife is going to be cringing once you hear me tell this story. But I have never in my life, never in my career, seen such a profound change in a person. before and after.

I described how earlier, how weak and helpless and stuck he was. Guy walked into my office next week, night and day, joyful, confident, kiss his wife, flirting with her, apologizing to his kids, taking responsibility, feeling joy, feeling hope, feeling connected to God, feeling at peace with some of his past, like radical difference because Jesus held a toilet paper roll and sent Charlie. Is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean. What comes out? Wow.

That's what I... You were sitting on that one. No pun intended. Apology at all the fans who are still with us along this journey here. I do want to end with a quick question, too. We have a lot of married couple from show, too. Is there any special advice you have for couples as far as it comes to spiritual warfare and being on the same page?

I think first and foremost, from the garden on, the enemy's strategy is about distorting our perception, first of God, causing us to doubt, but then also of one another. I mean, right away, we saw the effect of the fall when Adam and Eve blame each other, the circle of blame. Jesus is pretty bold when he talks about taking that plank at our own eye before we take out the splinter of our neighbors. I'm learning so much lately in marriage about detachment, really. like there's a great book by Mel Robbins called The Letton Theory about really just letting others be not trying to change them and supporting them I think it all starts with how we see them

and again the enemy wants us to interpret things and see people through our, through the lens of our wounds oftentimes because that's the way that he can make us be divided against our spouse and think that they're a threat is when now they're like everyone else has hurt you and so it's by triggering your wounds oftentimes that we begin to be divided with our spouse, and we start seeing them a different way.

But we have to recognize that the Lord often is exposing us. He's provoking us. We're seeing our spouse being narcissistic, right? Well, the Lord is looking at us and inviting us to heal from areas even of abandonment, of rejection, and not feeling seen to the point where, hey, they can treat me however they want. Of course, it's not explicitly abusive, but there's a joy. and oftentimes that when you're starting to be transformed, the system starts to change.

So I just want to challenge you first and foremost. It starts with how you see your partner. Blessed are the pure of heart, they see God. I mean, we're all fighting for a connection. We're all fighting for love. It's not really about me versus you. We're all fighting for the same stuff in different ways, different strategies. That's usually who are stepped on each other's toes.

And the enemy wants us to pick each other apart, divide and conquer. But if you can maintain your eyes on that, person that the Lord loves, you're going to resist everything the enemy is going to come against you and you're going to become closer together in the midst of it. And the Lord is just going to really establish you and really what comes forth from staying in that space of closeness and trust together. Amen. I was going to say this after the homily on irritable bowel syndrome that was offered to us here. Thankfully, now that Exodus story is over, we're going to land the plane here with Dr. Tobin. When you have a clinical psychologist who also works in deliverance, it's just too much to talk about, as you clearly say, the time is flown by.

But I'd be remiss. Doctor, I know you've got a book that we want people to check out. Big God, little devil. Spoiler, God wins. But I have people asking right now, can he tells us at least one demon story? And I'm like, do you want to give the fans what they want? Do you want one? Do you want to share one little nugget from the book as a little tease, you know?

Sure. One of my favorite stories, I call it the divine wrestling map. in the book is this client of mine who who was feeling beat up by demons at night all over the place really beat up a lot by demons physically like he would get yanks and jabs and that was kind of one of the principal things that would happen and so in our session I just began to ask the Lord as we do when we're kind of connecting with what's happening what he wanted to know and as I asked that question it seemed to prompt a retaliation we're asking Jesus, Lord, what do you want me to know?

A demon somehow appeared to this man as he sat in my chair and punched him right in the face. And, I mean, I just saw the guy getting like, it looked like, you know, if you were Peter Pan in the movie Hook, you know, you got some food in the face all of a sudden. It was like, you know, you saw it happen. He felt really discouraged and like, oh my gosh, this isn't going to work. So I immediately pivoted and like, okay, Lord, what do you want him to know where it seems like even asking a question is going to lead to further suffering? you know, tapping into that helplessness. And he saw in the room another demon about to hit. But at that moment, the demon didn't move.

And so he looked intently and saw that the demon was actually bound, that there were all these little strands or ropes or threads or something, and thousands of little angels behind it, almost like the Gulliver's travel, you know. And so it couldn't move. And so we asked the Lord then what he want him to know about that. And just then he saw another demon about to run forward out of kind of almost like appearing out of nowhere, like, you know, from the darkness into the light, right? This demon kind of lunging forward to hit him.

But just in that moment, Jesus caught the arm of the demon. And midair, dude, Jesus body slammed the demon on the floor. This floor right here. And, you know, I mean, this guy's kind of seeing it, imagining it, he's having this moment where it's like, he's really in it and I'm just with him in it, you know? Jesus, body slams this demon. But immediately it like activated something where he saw in this space where he was with the Lord and that kind of representing all this oppression that he was experiencing, all these demons coming from all their place and this memory that came to mind of when he was bullied as a kid. and when he was bullied as a kid, he was really beaten up, and I think they even threw rocks at him. Well, he saw that memory again all of a sudden, and he saw demons in the crowd.

The same demons that right now seem to be coming at him. And so this is kind of happening all spontaneously, and I'm just kind of watching this unfold and, you know, sipping on my coffee. And Jesus started to basically invite him into this wrestling match, this kind of tag team wrestling match. And one after another, they're taking out these demons. And it was so exciting for this guy. And the thing I loved most about it was that after the effect, after the fact, he told me that wrestling was actually his passion as a kid. He loved wrestling.

But this lie, this belief crept in, you know, alongside the bullying that he was too weak. So it really disempowered him. And so he quit. So even in that moment with the Lord, God was healing. something else. He went to a memory, but also spoke to, you know, something that was a passionate his. And that's what I've noticed in the moments of the most transformative. It's like, these are not to, this is not just a prophetic image or just some story. This is like the story. This is a moment. This is like a pivot point in this person's life. They're not going to be

the same after this. You know what I mean? It's like Jacob's walking away with a new name. So, yeah, it's cool. Yes, that sounds like an inspiration for a new video game. A mortal combat. Oh, there you go. Well, this has been amazing. Thank you so much, Dr. Tobin, for joining us. And we'll link to your book so people can go pre-order it, or depending on when this comes out, whether it'll be out or pre-order. Either way, we'll put a link in there. You can get a copy of big God, little devil, give it to friends and family who you think are possessed, right? Amen. Amen to that. Well, folks, this has been The Exorcist Files. Dr. Tobin, much appreciated.

Thank you so much for being you. And in the words of St. Steve Perry, Don't stop believing.