The Exorcist Files - Father Martins Flips The Script and Interviews Ryan

Episode Date: August 12, 2026

Three years in, Fr. Carlos Martins does something the show has never done: he puts his producer and co-host on the stand and interviews Ryan about his journey and how the show has impacted him. Thanks to Our Sponsors!Live Better Longer with BUBS Naturals. For A limited time get 20% Off your entire order with code EXFILES20 at https://Bubsnaturals.comLet Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. https://Rocketmoney.com/exfilesUpgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/EXFILES and use the code EXFILES to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF.Head to https://Exodus90.com/exfiles and start your 14 day free trial. Seek the Lord...see what happens!Timestamps00:00 Cold Open: The Fraud, the Bias, and the Mess00:59 Fr. Martins Puts Ryan on the Spot01:17 I Thought You Were a Fraud03:32 What He Believed Before Any of This05:15 The Exorcist Stereotype, and the Men He Met07:57 Sixty Percent Is Sometimes Enough08:30 Name Three Things You Have Learned12:06 SPONSOR BREAK: BUBS Naturals, Rocket Money15:00 What Surprised Him Most About Catholicism17:44 Statues, Altars, and Stones of Remembrance18:18 The Convergence Nobody Expected19:43 Drama or Catechesis: Where the Line Sits22:41 The Dad Joke Dispensation24:31 Favorite Case, Best Case, Most Hated Case28:12 Someone Offered to Pay for the Answer28:30 SPONSOR BREAK: Miracle Made, Exodus 9031:44 Why Gary Will Not Be Spoken Of32:50 The Case That Got Under His Skin35:19 Clergy Complaints and Parents Using It as a Lesson36:30 A Playground for Many Men38:35 Sex as a Delivery Mechanism39:34 The Biggest Misconception About Evil41:44 You Are a Bad Judge of What You Would Do42:36 The Episode That Vanished, and the Detroit Blackout43:39 Can a Christian Be Possessed?45:55 What He Would Say to a Skeptic48:34 Show Me the Video Means Less Every Year48:57 Is It Really That Crazy?51:26 Would a Million Dollars a Month Buy an Episode a Day?54:19 Thirty Hours of Post for One Hour of Show55:52 The Email That Made It Worth It59:56 How Three Years Changed His Walk With God01:01:33 A Beautiful Theological Mess01:05:26 Sign-OffSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome back to The Exorcist Files. I'm Father Carlos Martins, and I thought it would be great today to put Ryan on the spot. You and I, we've been working together for three years, and I wanted to take a pulse of where he's at with things and how things have affected him. So welcome, Ryan. Thanks for being here. Hey, thanks for having the show, Big Pan. All right, it's been three years. Why don't you briefly state how it was that this came about? How did we connect with one another? And who did that connect? I'm just glad you're finally conceding we've connected. I've been searching for that connection for so long.

But it's a long story, as you know, but I did, basically to cut it short, I was out in Rome and got to go to the Vatican and was looking for a contact to try and produce a show on miracles and spiritual warfare. And I was referred to you and they said, you got to talk to the guy who we send many of the most difficult cases to. and when I got your number, I called you. And unfortunately, it was not business love at first meeting. It was actually a pretty abrupt phone call. So I think you hung up on me.

And that's a miracle that I persisted and sort of like a bad heresy. I just stuck around and wore you down. And we basically aligned on the big issue of really wanting to create something that would bless a lot of people, catechize, and encourage. run a really serious topic. And fast forward, actually, so that was five years ago. And here we are today. Yeah. Yeah. And why did I hung up on? You hung up on me because I think you assumed that I had somehow stolen the number or had basically lied my way into getting it. You were very suspicious. I thought you were a fraud. I did.

Okay, great. Thank you. So there was a friend of mine in the Dicastria for the causes of saints whom you said gave you my number. So I hung up on you and I called him up. And the first thing he said was, as Ryan called you. And I said, oh, you did give him my number. Yeah. Like, hear him out. What he's talking about is really interesting.

And anyway, so that's how it started. And so when you and I first agreed to partnership, to a partnership with this, Of course, we talked about the idea for the podcast and the particular flavor that it would take. So, look, at that time, what did you believe about demons and exorcism and how might have, has it evolved to this day? I have always operated in the assumption that it's absolutely real. Prior to our meeting, I had seen spiritual warfare firsthand. Nothing anywhere near the level of the, or details that we depict.

in the show. But nonetheless, stuff that I am absolutely certain beyond a reasonable doubt was demonic. And I thought, wow, this, you know, this would be a tremendous opportunity to bring awareness of the subject. But I had never heard stories. And unfortunately, it's your fault now, because people all the time call me up and say, man, have I got a crazy story for you? And I say, try me. Yeah, at this point, it's like, you know, I'm getting like you where it's like, please, Like, come on, you know, this is a child's place. So I did, I did, I mean, because frankly, I don't think you can take the gospel seriously. I don't think you can interface with the teachings of Jesus Christ and walk away,

not believing that there is an adversary and an enemy. It's just so explicitly clear. And he spent so much of his ministry doing that. So I was always fascinated that that somehow was controversial because it just wasn't talked a lot about in most of my church tradition. Later it was when I got involved in more kind of Pentecostal charismatic circles, but it was interesting that that just was not something I heard a lot of Christians talk about. And so I was really, it was really refreshing to hear someone speak very openly,

but yeah, of course this is real, because it's something that I think more people dealt with than I think is acknowledged quite a bit. Yeah, and so with that, you know, you have met a lot of different exorcists through me, besides meeting me, you met a lot of other exercises. and did you have a certain stereotype in your head of what they were like? And how have we lived up to that? And maybe what are ways in which we have not lived up to that? I had no idea what to expect.

You are the most interesting exorcist I've ever met. Or while you were the only exorcist I had ever met. But I find the fact that I think my favorite thing is that you all are, and speaking of the Catholic priest exorcist that I know, is that you're all so different. I just really appreciate that. And it's just, you know, there are commonalities, which are really appreciate.

It seems like most of you do enjoy a good scotch and a good cigar. I don't know if that's part of the formation that happens or just something that you need to build and enjoy. But I do appreciate one thing that, I mean, no expectations, but I have appreciated how just no nonsense, how confident it is something I've noticed. And I think it makes sense in the context of what you do for work.

that there's just not a lot of small talk and a lot of, it's just very matter of fact. And it makes sense because the work you do is grueling and very serious. And so I appreciate that quite a bit. So I don't know what to expect. And frankly, I've appreciated how rational and, I mean, almost scientific you all are when it comes to the topic. Because let's be honest,

the topic of spiritual warfare can bring around a lot of very interesting folks. And there's a lot of absolutism for a subject that, That's one thing I had my brief exposure to a prior was that there seems to be, and I'm always reticent of people who speak in absolute terms about, oh, well, this is always how demons work, and this is always how heaven and the realms work. And I appreciate that there's a tremendous amount of humility in you exorcists are not afraid to say, I don't know. And so, because I've met some very interesting people on the other side of that.

And so I just, you know, there was a show I remember watching very early on. And it had like, it says, oh, we bring the other. there are all these different exorcists who were actually just deliverance ministers. And, you know, the way you all talk is so much more systematic and so much more just, you know, erudites than a lot of a just, I mean, there's just a lot of nonsense. Yeah. I, I, I think everybody that I know, certainly my colleagues, uh, were very sensitive to the fact that, uh, we are not omniscient in this area. And, and we operate, frankly, out of a lot of ignorance. We come to a situation and we're looking for an angle,

we're looking for a sense of understanding. And sometimes that understanding only amounts to, we only come to maybe 60% of understanding in the case. But that is sometimes enough to free somebody. And so, you know, that's what we're looking for. You know, the end of the game is not to accrue a body of knowledge, but it is to free somebody who's ensnared by the devil. nevertheless, how has your own knowledge increased in this, in being around this subject, working this subject?

Like if I were didn't ask you to name three things you've learned, could you offer three things? Not necessarily ranked in any level of importance, but three things. It's interesting. I would say experiential knowledge has been the big increase for me because there's a lot of academic material. I had consumed on the subject as part of the preparation for the show. But one, my sounds maybe a little bit of a cop-out, but my knowledge of the mystery of God has gone up tremendously because when you hear these stories,

you realize that as much as there are patterns and as much as there are commonalities you look for, the reality is every case is different, every person's different, every journey is so different. And God is doing a completely proprietary, unique thing in everybody. And so it's made me a lot more humble, frankly, in my theology and my just walk with God because you just go, okay, like, he's choosing to do that way. I don't know why. Another thing, I think I really wrestled with the idea of not being one and done because it's

just in scripture, my main exposure to deliverance. And actually, my main anecdotal experience of spiritual warfare was pretty like, you know, praise God. Someone was delivered very quickly. So I had no framework for people who were like experiencing ongoing demonization. And yeah, I didn't realize. The other thing I did that is I didn't appreciate how much rigorous screening went into this. You know, you tend to assume like, oh, it must be a demon. Let's go for it. And I love the collaboration that goes on with medical professionals.

I had no idea about that. I've enjoyed meeting some of those professionals. We've had them on the show. It has been such a gift to connect with them. and I appreciate that so much. And so I just look around now and I go, you know what, if God chooses to do one way, I mean, we were speaking with a colleague who was,

you know, you would ask him how he reflected on the fact that it took months and, you know, months to be healed and a year to, or months he had delivered in years to get healed. And how that would have changed had he been instantly delivered and instantly healed. And I think for the first time, again, I don't want anyone to suffer needlessly. I personally don't want to. I don't want anyone to be experiencing any of the stuff that we documented this.

But if I start with the premise that God is good and he knows what he's doing, then in some weird offensive way, everything that is unfolding in every aspect at any time stamp is for the greater good. And so our friend Josh, who it took so long, right, I don't know why it took that longer healing. I don't know why it took Tammy Comer decade plus to get healed. And yet both of them say, praise God. And they have a unique appreciation

for their journey that came from that. So that's something that I probably would have said, oh, that makes sense logically. But now experientially, I know that. And so there are things that I know now at an experiential level because I've now interviewed so many people. And I've walked with some of the,

we've met some of the former victims, we just the people who've gone through this and you go, okay, there's just that level of knowledge you have now from knowing these people and hearing someone or having someone look you in the eye and say, yeah, I didn't enjoy being sick, but praise God for the journey that I'm at and I wouldn't trade it for the world. Well, now I know about God's sovereignty a little more than when I started. Praise God. Praise God. There aren't many things that I take every single day, but one of them is collagen and not just any collagen, bubs for three reasons mainly. Number one,

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Yeah. I've said this a lot before, but I was pretty, I don't like the word anti-Cathic, because I didn't have like a buy. I was more just, I thought, wow, this is a really misguided expression of Christianity. It's works based. It's polytheistic at its worst. You know, it's misguided at best. And I was pretty, you know, and that's something that we have lenses we look at.

And the thing about scripture, and I would say tradition too, and Church Father, this is famous, right? You can find a verse or a quote from anything to build up whatever worldview you want to reinforce. If I want to reinforce prosperity gospel, I got plenty of verses for you. I want to reinforce Calvinism. I can find that. And so I think I had to ask myself at one point, are you letting scripture and tradition and experience shape you? Or are you forcing it to fit your narrative?

And so I came in with a pretty strong bias against Catholicism. And I think part of that was because I just hadn't had much exposure, right? And that's the beautiful part. I mean, I love to kill a mockingbird, right? And what's the famous quote? It's like you don't really understand someone until you, you know, put on their shoes and walk around, you know, walk around their shoes a little bit. And I, Atticus Finch, and I'm now having met and befriended, I have so many close friends who are just devout on fire Catholics and their prayer lives have inspired me and the church tradition has inspired me. And so I, I've been deeply moved because I think, and this is going to be an oversimification, but when you meet people who are desperately in love with Christ,

And that's the goal. The other stuff, and I'm not saying it doesn't matter because it matters, but it's interesting how the conversation shifts about how do we best reflect the desires of the master, not proving who's right and who's wrong. It's how do I experience the fullness that Jesus has for me in whatever form he has for me. And we all need to be open to that. And so I have been deeply affected by the sacramental worldview. you, I love the idea of the integration of physicality and spirituality, and you see it all throughout history and scripture. I mean, I love, you know, in ancient Israel, I've always resonated with the idea of God saying, you know, build, build an altar here, do stones of remembrance here, right?

Remember what I've done, because as humans, we forget constantly. And so I love that, you know, which you might, you, my first time I walked into a really devout Catholic's home, which I had not experienced, right? And you see statues everywhere. see you say whoa this is a little different right and then you learn so if I didn't know anything I'd think wow this is a this feels a weird um but you guys oh they have built in for their spiritual walk they have built in physical tangible reminders visuals about piety and inspiration and you know that's the same thing I have friends who have jerseys of their favorite team up on the wall to inspire them in their gym to work out etc so I have been deeply deep

impacted by that and and your evil the other part is I've just been shocked at the convergence there is so much in fact spiritual warfare I was shocked at pretty much how and you and I have been in many living rooms talking about search of warfare and isn't it true how many people come up and go huh we agree on like nothing you said bothers me at all like there's a bad guy and he shouldn't be there and if he is he somehow got in and let's get him out and how do we close that door. And guess what? Sin is the cause. And you're like, oh, no one is disagree. So I have found that to be very surprised. I would have thought it would have been very different. And so I mean,

your approach in particular to exorcism has been very surprising to me. It's very spiritual. I expected, I think, you know, maybe I did have an expectation that there's a book and you're reading it and you've got the holy water. And, you know, because I watch the movies. The power of Christ compels you. The power of Christ compels you. And you're like, no, I pray. You know, I mean, there's probably, I suppose, like, yeah, Holy Spirit, what do you want to do? Who argues with that? I mean, it was really cool.

So that, those are a few things that have really impacted me. Praise God. Praise God. You know, so our whole format is built and framed to immerse people in the cases. So right, the podcast in his essence is bringing people in. to the room where the session happens and immersing people in that experience. And where would you say where we draw the line between drama and catechises. So both are important. You know, how do we portion those out? What has been our philosophy? Yeah, well, first off, I don't like that you've

Miagi me, I have found myself saying catechise and spiritual direct because I meet and work with so many Catholics now and I've noticed there's fun language gaps. You know, I remember I was praying one time. I said, Lord, we just thank you for divine appointments. And my Catholic friend said, that was beautiful. What does that mean divine appointments, right? Or I said, you know, I've my first time Father Pine. I know some of my heart posture. He's like, bro, what do you mean heart posture? And I said, you know, the posture is like, dude, that's the, you know. And I said, I was talking with my mentor, and then I finally started going to say, oh, my pastor, who's my spiritual director, right? And he's like, oh, of course, of course. So it's been fun to learn

that. So you said catechized. And I'm like, I never would have said that. And now I say that all the time. But for the show, I think, you know, it has to be entertaining. People will constantly criticize, you know, why we do that. And I'll admit, there is a part of me, Father, that is, I don't like that you throw up a conversation about demons on YouTube, and it will always do 100x better than many other topics. There is human, and I don't know if you agree, but is it like the car wreck you can't look away? Like, are we tapping into a fact that humans are fascinated with this,

and there's a void? And so I think what's the beauty of what we do is that there is this human fascination, and we do it in a way that is respectful, entertaining, to the point that the characters have real arcs, there are stories. I mean, your cases, one thing that really was cool about the cases is that it could have just been you telling a story, like, oh, this is what happened. The thing about exorcism and your cases, which is so interesting, is that they follow the anatomy of story, right? Demonic assaults don't usually stay status quo, right?

Horror as a genre has elements of compression, right? Start off with 10 people in the cabin in the woods, and by the end, there's one person running from the monster, right? and exorcism cases having natural tendency, right, where it doesn't stay the same. The enemy gains the ground or he gets kicked out. And so I find that what was very interesting is your stories came in with, I mean, it was a producer's dream because there's like all this material to work with

and stories that I didn't have to, we didn't have to, you know, we had to change a lot of details, but we didn't have to change a lot of the character arcs, right? And also there's even built into the ritual itself is tension about someone and you can't do anything to make that person change their mind.

You can give them, all you can do is tee them up and they have to make the choice, right? And all character drama comes down to characters making choices, right? And so I find that to be a natural compliment to what we do. And then, of course, the humor, which you permit, we'll say. I won't say you endorse, but you know, you allow. You give a dispensation for dad jokes. And I think that's actually really crucial.

I know some people find some of the jokes a little too much, but I've had way more people write in and say they really appreciate the humor because it's a super dark topic. And they just, you need some, you need some relief. So I've had many of you tell me it's one of the best education tools. And frankly, I have a friend going through the OCIA and we were comparing some notes. And I was shocked at how much I knew already. I feel like I've been through OCIA by doing the show. Sure.

Sure. Yeah. And I agree with you. Humor adds a necessary levity to the topic. otherwise it's a serious topic but but there is a point where it becomes too serious and has too much mystique and and and and and if it reaches that point kind of has too much power over us so so that the the the humor adds a little bit of a reset button and and brings things back into their proper proportion and so you know I I I certainly get that and

I agree with it I don't have anywhere near the the humor the ability to evoke humor that you do. And I certainly don't have the dad joke charism. But you've got it in spades and you employ it well. Have you ever asked for it? I've never prayed for it. No, no. But, you know, gosh, maybe I ought to.

But, you know, I'll pray for something else because you have that. So we don't need that element, you know. So I'll pray, you know, for an enhancement in the, you know, I love coffee. But gosh, who couldn't love it more? Like it's such a wonderful gift. Anyway, moving on, moving on. We've done a lot of episodes. Do you have one that is either your favorite

or one that you're most proud of because of whatever, of either the story itself, the storytelling, the effects, or maybe the feedback. that you've gotten back from it. Sure. I have to acknowledge, right, that this whole thing is a team effort. And we had some incredible collaborators help us along the way. Just master geniuses.

Like, there are people that work from the scoring to even the producer who worked with on season one, just phenomenal talents who just helped with everything. And so I would just want to make sure that that's clear. Like, it's obviously, you know, it's a joint effort. It's a very, it's a team. It's a team effort entirely. My favorite case personally, and it's funny because it's actually one that you are not directly followed with at first is the spiritual roulette, and it's the Ouija board case.

I love that one. One, it's nuts. It's one of the first cases that I heard and I went, this is the pinnacle of just absurdity. Like, faceless man in a cornfield, a Ouija board that comes back. natural law defying phenomena, right? So that, it was also very fun because it was at a really cool season in life where I was part of a men's group and all of these guys that played Gowan and Peter and Michael and Anthony, they're all really close friends.

And we all lived around the same area in Los Angeles and got together. And so there was just constant chemistry. And so we just turned the mic on and just, you know, we gave them suggestions. but a lot of it was the friendship and just like they would just flowed so well. And it was really cool. Also, the history. So as we do a lot in many of the episodes, more so in season one, there's a lot of history and actual, we try to blend it with, you mentioned catechesis, but also just like science

and studies. And the Ouija board history, enough is enough for anyone to have caution about it. I mean, the fact, the way the founder died and the spiritist involved, the spiritist involved with it, I mean, there wasn't a dull moment in that for me. So I found it absolutely fascinating. Now, is it the best case? No, what's interesting is you and I both are in agreement probably on what we consider to be sort of the best artistic one, and that's what's in a name from season one.

Now, I don't say season two has have amazing cases, but there's also something about the first season of anything. You know, no one knows what to expect. We know that by the second season, the expectations for phenomena are just, you know, They're like, what are they going to do now? So I think I've had many people write in and say episode four was, it was either four or five. It was episode of five. We're deeply disturbed and scared and also blown away.

And that was the episode where you outline your three questions and lay out the framework that you use an exorcism. So that one is considered that. That being said, we also have our most unpopular cases, which are very downloaded. We have the yoga episode is many people said they would leave the show because they were so mad about that. and also, you know, can't talk about it, but obviously Gary the holder, right? People, I still get comments that are sent to me saying, love the episode, great episode, loved it father.

FYI, where's Gary? And it just, you know, some things you don't get to know, and people are constantly. So that is probably the most frustrating case. I have every week we get a comment or a question or an email saying, can you please Tom New Gary's. In fact, someone offered to pay me if they could find out what happened to Gary. Did you know that when you sleep, your brain washes itself?

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People ask me all the time about how to keep the enemy out of their lives. Obviously, you want to stay close to God and develop a prayer life, but there's something else that's crucial. You need connection to Christian community. I know that that's not always easy to get, but here's an easy way to get it. On August 12th, Exodus 90s starts their St. Michael's Lent Challenge, and I absolutely recommend you give it a go. They'll be working through the book of Daniel this year, one of my personal favorites.

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Join the St. Michael's Lent Challenge. You won't regret it. Yeah, and, you know, the reason why we can't talk about Gary is that is a current case. And so we would be, we set up rules for ourselves that we wouldn't go there for the dignity of the person involved. and it would be irresponsible to comment on a case that is ongoing. And frankly, there's a fear in doing that that is going to induce a manipulation of the enemy and I don't want to give them any advantage. So Gary, for the time being, for the foreseeable future, will not be spoken of. and if that changes and the case comes to a resolution,

we'll let some time go by and revisit it. But in the meantime, request for more information will simply just be ignored. But we appreciate the fact that you have them and certainly it's understandable. Ryan, is there a particular case that we worked on, the elements of which affect, you at a spiritual level in a way more than what you anticipated. And that could be in any way. Like, the way you perceive evil, your relationship with God,

are just some element of your spirituality. A taste of honey, a trucker in the witch, as many people call it, I found that to be just really interesting because, obviously, for those who don't remember, our poor trucker, Trent, has a little dalliance with a woman who unfortunately ends up being a witch and starts

experiencing really crazy phenomena. And I think I had the first time, I mean, again, I mentioned experiential knowledge, and I've always known in my head that God has, like, what's best for me in mind, and even if I can't see the reason or rationale,

now. That case illustrated for, I think, just viscerally for a lot of people and myself, which is that God's purity commands are not, like, they're for many reasons, but they're not for like just straight up, like, oh, repression and buzz killing. Like, oh, puritanical Christianity is just design, you know, it's this ancient, you know, outdated ethos to keep you, you know, from having a good time. And it's like, what if? And I'm saying just what if? Very powerful. wars. If, I use that with this entire show, you don't believe it, fine. But if any of it's true, if that's true, if it's possible that you have a dalliance with someone and they end up being a witch, right? And you suddenly open yourself up to the hell he went through. It's like,

what if that's just another reason that God is like, hey, yeah, there's another reason I want you to not like hook up with all these people. Because guess what's out there, right? I'm trying to protect you. And I think it was just a really cool experiential, uh, this or reminder that like, yeah, Reason number three, they might be a witch. And you're like, oh, so I've had many friends actually share that episode with young adults and teenagers as a cat. It's not for everybody. In fact, we had some clergy write us and say, love the show, appreciate everything. There was one episode that I found a particular bit steamy, you know.

But it's the subject matter. And I'll tell you, many people have written me saying I'm using it for instruction because I want my, I've had a lot of parents email me and say, hey, I'm just sending it. I want my kids to under my older kids. It's not age appropriate for everybody. I'd say, you know, it's a high school or above thing. And it's a, hey, this is why I want you to follow. Like, I want you to follow God's rules because it's good for you.

Not because I'm just being, you know, lame. Yeah. And I know for me, the case of Evelyn and Trent has, you know, I've gotten a lot of feedback. and they break down into two different kinds of feedback. Many women don't like it. They think it's too steamy and perhaps a bit too detailed. And there was a lot of discussion that we went through about the detail. And in the end, we settled on the form that we did

simply because of what we thought would be the pastoral import on people. look that case is for many men a playground like it's the ideal situation

you have this woman who is beautiful who's an entrepreneur independently wealthy and who is inordinately frisky so so you have all of these

these these check boxes that are checked off in this person. And so, you know, here's a guy, a trucker, way more of a simple guy than she is. She's very educated, knows multiple languages and so forth. And he just, you know, it starts off the equivalent of him winning the lottery. He can't believe his luck. She knows his beer. That's right. So, so we've tapped into, we've tapped into what for, what for many men is the ultimate fantasy. And I thought it was important for, us to talk about that because the devil was absolutely tapping into the ultimate fantasy for many men in that case. And so I just thought pasturally that it was worth talking about. Is there

anything you wanted to add about that case in terms of that you thought was significant or that conveyed a message that most people, maybe men in particular, are not aware of? Well, I think it is important, too. That case did reveal for the first time your deep animosity towards oatmeal. I absolutely. Can't stand the stuff. That's right. So you will find details in the cases that if you are really astute, you pay attention.

You'll find recurring themes. And that'll tell you a little bit about father and I in our musical taste, beer tastes, and, you know, but, yeah, I actually, and the best email father I got in response to that case was, I don't think they were. serious, but it was very funny. It said, hey, I'm passing through the Northwest. Do you happen to know what diner she worked at? She worked at asking for a friend. Yeah, I think that case was also really interesting, too, because, you know, I found it interesting from a cultural standpoint where, you know, if you could try and dismiss sex to, regardless of what, you know, theology or, you know, if you're Christian or not, what I found very interesting about the case was we actually documented

that many, because she would actually enact her influence over him via the sexual act. And I thought it was really interesting that we researched many different global religions. And in fact, if you were to take the position that sex was purely biological, and it was literally just, you know, copulation for procreation, that's it, right? That's actually really in the minority. It was very interesting to me that, like, I mean, so many different faiths that have, can see that there's some sort of metaphysical. element to that. And I thought that was, I thought that was really interesting. That's actually a source of

tremendous agreement among many us, particularly Hinduism, I found was very interesting and Christianity there. So that was, that was really interesting to me. What is the biggest misconception that you think people have about evil? That you're not part of it. We would all say we're sinners, right? I don't think, And this is tough because I live in this duality. But the more the older I get and the more I walk with God, the more I'm just aware of just like how, you know, just I don't mean as a downer, but just, you know, you kind of get to a place

where you can reverentially say in like knowing your free. Like you just know like, oh, like I have spent a good chunk of my life committing acts that would be considered like evil. And I'm not talking about, you know, murders and rob which we tend to think of we tend to think of evil in these like extreme cases but it's like no it's like a life lived in pursuit of one's own selfish gain um the uh you know trying to you know just using people to get what you want um just as a kid like lying you know just like just stuff that you just realize and you go man or just even just like rejecting god like rejecting his his grace and

put me making him not not honoring the first crime just literally this like i got i often think about this that, you know, I didn't choose to be born. I just exist. And I have, I won the jackpot. You know my family well. They're amazing. I have had every blessing conferred to me under the sun. And I look back and I go, man, like it just, you know, wow, like you, you know, and again, you grow your kid, you learn. So there's, I'm not, I'm not trying to be down on myself, but I'm just saying, the more you grow with the Lord, the more you become convicted of like, oh, the old ways that I used to walk in and how they just profit, they contribute to everything. You don't have to be a murderer and a rapist to be evil, right? Human beings commit acts that are against God all the time,

right? And we get better about it, et cetera. But I think that's something where, and then actually I had some, I've had good friends of mine have major lapses and things. And I think another thing they would say, they'd be the first to say is the biggest misconception is that you, and maybe this is the best way to phrase it, maybe the biggest misconception about evil is that you don't think, you don't know the extent to which you could contribute to it. Everyone is a bad judge of what they might or might not do. And I've had people who I thought were amazing. Like, bulletproof as possible, wreck things in a way that I never thought possible.

And I go, okay. And in the rare moments of lucidity out in the postmortem, they would say, yeah, the Vigizuzeke is that you think it can't happen to you. And so that's why I'm so appreciative of the Apostle's admonition to be aware, right? Not be afraid. Be aware because he's out there. And so the shows maybe just really guard myself, right? And then frankly, all the stories you share and all the things we've had go wrong on this show,

from technical difficulties to interviews disappearing to our very first recording session. An entire episode banished. I don't know if you remember that. I remember the power went out the first time we started recording in Detroit. And I just go, okay, like, it's out there. There's an opposition out there. And so I now have to stay on guard more than ever because that's the cool thing. When you realize the framework we're dealing with here, which is that sin and trauma open up doors, it's actually a tremendous motivation to stay close to God.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so there are certain debate. within pockets of Christianity, and in particular within denominations. And you informed me of one within Protestant circles that I have never encountered in my life.

And so I'm gonna, Okay, let's go. I'm gonna reveal what it is in the form of a question. Ryan, is it possible for a Christian to become possessed? Yes. Unsubscribe, unsubscribe. Yes. But with the caveat of understanding what possession actually means. And maybe before you go into that, why is it? Why am I bringing this up? Why? What is the debate? It is one of the single biggest debates and misconceptions from my opinion in the church. And it's just the idea that if you are indeweled by the Holy Spirit that you can't have demon problems.

And what it comes back to is it comes, your ask is because so many people will resist this idea because they believe that if you're saved and you're walking with Christ that you just can't have demon problems. They wouldn't say you can't be persecuted, which I think is funny, though, because we look at persecution and where it comes from. And at some level, all these bad things, you know, come down from the enemy. but the biggest issue is just that conflation of ownership and possession, right? And I've always appreciated the analogy that you've used of having a condo or a timeshare in Florida

and you could own it legally. It's yours. And you could totally leave it and disrepair and walk away and leave the door open and raccoons can come in there and people squatters can come in and take temporary possession because possession does not mean ownership. There are things that I could take your laptop right now and be in possession of it. And it wouldn't mean that I own it. And then, of course, what do you do? You call the authorities if you got a problem.

Call the exterminator of his raccoons. You call the sheriff if you need to get some evict some people out. And Jesus is that. And so I think once I explain it that way to people or once people have heard that on the show, they say, okay, that makes sense. Because of course, if you are walking with God and I think as probably Catholics would say, if you all are in a state of grace, like you belong to God. Right. And the enemy's not going to snatch you away from him. And so that has been very interesting to me.

It's actually been probably the second most popular question we get. Number one being, of course, if I listen to your show, will I be possessed? And I say, no, you're Christian. Okay. So if a skeptic we're listening right now, what would you want that skeptic? So a skeptic with regards to, the existence of the devil, the fact of possession,

the fact of spiritual warfare. If someone were to think, look, this is all make-believe, even including God, like all of this spiritual stuff is nonsense and silly, what would you say to that person? One, I get it. It sounds crazy. It sounds absurd. Totally. No one, I think it needs to be said more often. that, you know, to be Christian does not mean you need to turn off your rational, analytical mind.

And also, there's a lot of fake. Also, I want people to hear me. There's, I think there's a lot of fake stuff out there. I think there's a lot of pretend. There's a lot of, we know, I know prophetic words and charismatic movement, especially in the charismatic movement, there's a lot of stuff that's been wrong and faked. And we've seen that recently come out in a lot of investigations. We've seen, also, I think a lot of people feign demonic affliction. So I would say, to the skeptic, if you're coming to this like genuinely, you know, skeptical, I don't blame you. Like, right? What I would say, though, is to one, ask yourself, one, just, one, ask yourself, is there a level of proof that you would accept? I've appreciated people, have been honest and

say, I will never believe that a demon is real. I think you've said before, if the percentage is zero, that you would ever accept something, or if you, if you, if you start with the premise that there's zero percent chance is true, there's nothing that we can talk about. That's going to make you convince. I'll say in my own life that one, for me, what helped me get past the hurdle is if it's true, if it's true that there is an entity that is brilliant and personified evil and has this legion, no pun intended, of allies that are hellbent on our destruction, and that is their plan and they're cunning, ask yourself, would it make sense for them to show off in the

ways that you're asking to help you believe? Would you imagine that they want you to believe? Right? If you're in any form of warfare, do you want the enemy to know your whereabouts and nervous? It's just at a common sense level. If it's real, they would not, what makes you think they would even behave in a way that would let you study them? I always find that very interesting when people say, oh yeah, well, show me the tapes and those looks. So it's like, well, how do you know that they would say they're real? Like, how do you know they're just going to like do what you want on camera? You know?

Also interesting is in the world of AI, et cetera. I find it very interesting that video is not the pillar of truth anymore. Show me the video means less and less to me as we get further on in this technological age. The second part I would say is that is it really that crazy if you consider the fact that you exist that you have all these processes in your body happening, these cells that you didn't ask for, like doing all these miraculous processes, that you have a consciousness that you can't prove,

that you live on a rock spinning at the perfect velocity, the perfect distance from the perfect giant ball of gas that to not burn up, but to not freeze, surrounded by other giant intergalactic objects that absorb like everything that could utterly destroy this for the most part at a frequent basis, and go,

well, is it that crazy that all that things just happened, right? I would say there are so many absurdities in our lives already that this is actually not that absurd when you consider the fact that you and I are sitting here talking, I can't even prove that I'm exists. I can't even, I mean, I can't prove that this isn't all simulation. I mean, life is wild to me. And if you start, and also, and if you're really science-minded, start digging into quantum theory. I'm not one of those that thinks that that quantum spookiness and the deficits prove everything.

But you start studying particles. For me personally, I know I'll get some physicists to try and, you know, who will maybe just prove me on this. That's fine. But when I learn that light behaves both as a wave and as a particle, I think it is, or just like, depending on if it's being observed, I just blew my mind. It was that there's so much more. When I think about black holes and time and the fact that time exists and can be compressed, My mind was blown at all this. So I just have tremendous humility going into this.

And I would also say, lastly, consensus does not mean truth. Like large democratic consensus does not mean necessarily truth. But if you think there is no spiritual paradigm, you are actually in the vast minority of people and that every religion on earth, for the most part, contends that there is some spiritual paradigm, and many of them in almost every culture on earth,

almost, believes of their evil spirits. In fact, has prescriptions on how to deal with them over the last thousands of years. And interestingly, the religion that you and I subscribe to, part of why it spread so much is a rabbi out of a small town that has nothing, was somehow had the ability to just destroy evil spirits and remove them from people that no other one had.

So that's how I'd say. There's good reasons to believe. Amen. I agree. Couldn't agree more. you know one of the one of the most common frustrations that people so this is this is a second last question one of the most common frustrations that that we get from viewers is why don't i see more dramatic episodes and i'm thinking of one person in particular this is back in season one oh yeah she said

you know, this is, this is irresponsible to have a week in between them. We should be receiving one of these every day. So how much does she donate again? Okay, so let's let's let me see you that and raise you a bit. So let's say she was prepared to put down a million dollars a month. Okay, would that be sufficient to produce an episode a day? Sure, that might be enough to, of course, financially, you could say that might be enough. But the reality is, it's not just the money, right?

It's the sheer amount of work and scrutiny that goes into it. And I know a lot of people like just use AI. And, you know, we spend a lot of time on these scripts. Father and I fight a lot on scripts. Like we, in fact, our team fights, I should say. We've all had, I mean, we've had blistering disagreements. at season one, and it's what makes it good. And so also there's a tremendous amount of prayer

and discernment that goes into it. And this is what I really appreciate. To anyone also doubting the kind of, you know, the veracity of some of these claims, there have been many times I would come to Father and Becky, Father. I mean, you must have seen this before, right? And you're like, I've seen that.

And it's like, great. Well, that would be great to put in the episode, right? He's like, that didn't happen that way. And I'd say, well, maybe it did though right he's like nope and i've always appreciated it i've wanted to push the line because i want to entertain uh and father's like no like that is beyond and even if you have seen it right you're like that is beyond the realm of reason and we would lose the veracity of the case so there's just so much work that goes into these things and the amount of detail and so i mean it takes

weeks to get scripts to a place or we even feel comfortable and then you have to cast all the people i mean we we have a lot of wonderful talent that comes into it and a lot of prayer and also you know what diminishing returns, right? I think it's really cool that they come when they, you know, we get them when we get them. And I'm very excited that we are in the process of a new season right now. And I am hopeful they will bless a lot of people. And yeah, they haven't come out yet because they are not done yet. And it'll be finished when it's finished, as my mom said for dinner.

Okay. So let's let's just flesh out one part of this a little bit more. So an episode is typically about 45 minutes to an hour long. on. So let's just say, let's work in round numbers, one hour, okay? A one hour episode. Why don't you describe, because you're managing this part of the production, you're anchoring it, how many hours, how many man hours does it take to produce one finished hour of podcast that we release to air? I know it takes say it takes some

I mean between writing the scripts and stuff it takes a month at least and then you go and that's just me and you and you and composers and I mean it's just you know it's it's it's probably hundreds of hours per one to do and yeah if you break it down it seems like

how long does it take to write a script well it takes a long time because it's research right there's you have to also you know you just write it and it's done you have to wait you have to see you like it. There's been stuff that I thought was amazing and three days later, it's like, not so good. There's also, there's the composition. Also, Peel Rose, I have to listen to each episode quite a few times. That's another thing too. It's because the first time you get it back, it doesn't always sound the way you wanted to. And there's, that's the beauty of the way we record it

now is that we can, we have a lot of customization options, et cetera. And there's tremendous work that goes into trying to figure out the sound effects and the music. And sometimes you say, you know, I like the music, but didn't like it here. We got to redo it. And every time you you got to re-export it and you got to re-listen to it and so there's a it's just tremendous amount of work goes into it it's so much fun it's a lot of work um and it's stressful but it's so worth it and when we get emails from people saying that they return to the faith after 40 years or that i mean you just got an email recently from someone that said you helped their uh parent pass away peacefully yeah and that's that's the good stuff that was uh the meditation on st peter

for the Lenton meditation series I did earlier this year. And identifying the fact that St. Peter, it's very clear in the Gospels that he has every indication of having an inordinate fear of death. And the fact, and so I talked about it, and I talked about Peter's recurring imperfections up until the end and including his recommissioning by Christ in John 20 on the beach.

And yet, So up until the end of the gospels, the post-resurrection end, Peter's brokenness is writ large. It's there. And so this gave a strength to this woman who was able to die in peace. The fact that Peter was broken, and this is another dimension of the saints that we appreciate in Catholicism and the Orthodox do as well, that the fact part of what makes them heroes so much is the fact. that they were broken individuals, every one of them, at some level. And yet they were able to overcome that. But I want to, going back to the production, when I was in season one,

of course, this was all a dramatic eye-opening for me. Because, you know, the cases are mine. I pull out my files and I revisit the cases, you know, because a lot of the things I'll remember, but a lot of things I won't remember. And so I need the file. I need to go through the file to revisit them. And then I've got to render that into a script. And then Ryan is working with me in that.

And, you know, Ryan makes suggestions like this part here. Do we really need it? Do we not need it? It doesn't seem to add anything. And it's just kind of a chunky part. Okay, I agree with you. Yeah, let's take that out. It's irrelevant.

Yada, yada, yada. Then we bring in the actors. You know, Ryan casts them. Not just any actor is suitable. And I got to see that firsthand. So we've had some actors come and give the lines. And you know what? It just doesn't work.

This person is just not nailing this character properly. All right. So that is changed. So finally we get that done. What wowed me was seeing, and this happened partway through the first season, when I asked one of the engineers that mixed everything for us, you know, how much time does it take for you to do this? And he said for every hour of a podcast, it takes 30 hours of post-production work for him.

So this is with the scripts done, with the recordings done, the casting's been done. And so all of the sounds have been brought in. And so he's mixing this. And so this is the sheer amount of work that all of this takes. And so, Ryan, why can't we put on an episode every day? Well, tell you what, give her our rounding number. And if she wants to put a million dollars in a day, I'll see what I can do. Yeah, but, you know, I wouldn't have enough cases to fill.

I mean, we're in our third year now of production, you know, more or less a thousand days, but I wouldn't have a thousand cases to get. We don't want people to go sinning and so we can get more. Right, exactly. Okay. I pray you run out one day. All right. So coming down on to the last question, so Ryan, how has this affected? We're working on this project, on this podcast, how has it affected your relationship with God? It's helped a lot. You know, it's interesting. I get flak sometimes. I mean, one, we get a lot of people love the show.

I also have been teased a lot of late for hanging out with a lot of Catholics and Orthodox and just, you know, people text me all the time, be like, so did you cross the Tiber yet, you know? And it's tough because I didn't realize that there's, you know, I think obviously anyone who really loves you for who you are, you know, they're joshing around, et cetera. But it is interesting to see that, you know, not everyone likes what we do. a lot of good, but a lie. You know, there's people who don't. And I, this has really affected my spirituality and there's just been a good reminder. It's like, if you are ever tempted to fall short of what God has called you to do, I have less excuse than anyone probably on the planet and that my job is to like just document all the time the consequences of what happens if you do.

And so that weighs on me in a good, in a good heaviness. And so it's a tremendous reminder, you know, just like, cool, I think about that all the time. I, earlier in April of last year, I felt like I got a real, and again, was it a word from God or just a feeling or I don't know. But I just, I suddenly had this, the show has instilled in me a deep burning desire for ecumenism. And it's not something I mean, again, I like unity as a whole. I've had friendships fall away. I've had people, you know, leave out of my life that was really painful and that's always been a positive thing for me.

So it would make sense that I love a communism. But I think seeing the way Protestants and Catholics converge so much on spiritual warfare, it just sort of ignited this fire where I just love the idea of Christians getting closer and closer to the table. and as Christ prayed. And of course, I'm not going to solve schism. And I can't minimize that there are legitimate differences, but it has left me, and I think this is something that all my friends,

if they seriously ask me and they say, where are you at with all this stuff, right? How has it changed you, theologically, et cetera? Are you Catholic now? Are you Orthodox? You know, I think every Christian needs to ask themselves this, and I will defend this, right? Which is, like, one, if there was more for you, if Jesus had more for you in any which way, would you want to know?

That's a prayer I pray every day, right? You'd want to know, yes. And so then I just trickle that down. If there were more books for your edification, sanctification, and insight, right? I'll read countless books. Like, say you follow Warren Buffett's investing and you discovered he had a secret treatise that was not built into the original biography you have, but it contained really valuable lessons.

Maybe it's not as good as the first biography, whatever. It's like all these, would you want to know? I'd want to know. If there were more, from a sacramental standpoint, if there were more physical means to to supernaturally empower you and infuse you with God's grace, would you want to know? Absolutely. And would you want to know if they're not real? If they're not real things, would you, of course, you'd want to know. I asking myself, am I letting Bible and experience shape me or am I coming to it with a preset disposition? Am I letting my cultural preferences for music and for, you know, how I like to do things affecting my judgment of what the Holy Spirit

is doing. I just, these are questions. I think we all need to ask and say truth wherever it leaves. And so, yeah, I'm just on a beautiful journey. And I think I want everyone so desperately to be at the table of the Lord. That prayer, you know, I had the privilege of going and doing the show on the Apostle Paul was a renowned Paul scholar and his teaching on like what eating meant and how serious it was in that Near Eastern culture. And for, you know, we read in the Bible, oh, the Jews and Gentiles wouldn't eat together. And we're like, oh, that sounds like a lunchroom spat.

But it's like, no, it's like, to eat with someone is to share deep intimacy. And then I look and I see Christ going, man, I'm going to spend my final hours with my friends having a meal together. And I'm going to have a meal. I'm going to say, eat me as part of this meal. That gets weird too. And then say, hey, Lord, our Jesus, you know, God,

my prayer is that they may be one as you and I, are one. And I thought, okay, we're not there yet. But I'll say I have friends now who read, I have Catholic friends who read their Bible more than they ever have and pray in tongues like they never have. And I got rosaries that I never had, a relics I've never had,

because people just have been so generous to me. And we're not one yet in the way that we probably need to be. But he's quoting scripture. I'm quoting the catechism, and we're a lot closer than when we started. So I am excited about the journey. And I really believe this work has helped in some small way,

Christ's body get back a little bit closer together. And for that, I am deeply grateful, and I hope that is the case. So truth, reverend leads. Praise God. Amen. Thank you, Ryan, for being here. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. It is, it's a pleasure to have you with us

and supporting us. Of course, we're doing this all for the kingdom. We're doing this all for you, and we hope it's been edifying, and you've been wonderful with your praise that it has, and thanks for being with us. Continue to pray for us. You are always in our prayers.

God bless you. Good night, and good luck.