The Exorcist Files - Father Martins Revisits the Ouija Board That Wouldn't Burn

Episode Date: June 12, 2026

The Exorcist Files has dealt with Ouija boards in several cases, but perhaps none as wild and chilling as "Spiritual Roulette", where a group of friends open a portal to a demonic entity known as Stevie. They tried to quit playing the game, but Stevie was far from game over.Thank you to our sponsorsLive Better Longer with BUBS Naturals. For A limited time get 20% Off your entire order with code EXFILES20 at Bubsnaturals.comGo to Babbel.com/exfiles for up to 60% off. Start speaking!Get the greens your body needs. Fogchicks.com promo code EXFILESCheck out Runewoodrosary.com and use our promo code exfiles for a 15% off.Want to support the show and Father Martins ministry? Subscribe to the Vault at Exorcistfiles.supercast.comCheck out The Born Again Identity with Father Gregory and Ryan Bethea at EWTN plus.CHAPTERS01:00:04 | The Board That Came Back | Cold open: thrown away, back on the table01:01:09 | The IRS or Old Scratch? | "Both are ancient enemies. Depends on who you owe."01:02:01 | Season 3 Preview | New cases with "details far more interesting" than seasons 1 and 201:02:34 | The Obsession Episode | Two real cases behind the box office moment01:04:22 | Obsession, Defined | Partial possession: the last step before the real thing01:05:59 | The Case File | Faceless man, cockroaches, a flying planchette01:09:13 | Meet Stevie | Why a demon introduces itself as a dead child01:12:35 | Gowan vs. Stevie | How the room's one skeptic became the target01:16:30 | "Kill Him" | The demon shows its cards and the game ends01:23:43 | Child's Play | Teleportation vs. healing a broken board01:26:13 | The Permission Framework | Job, Peter, and the limits on demonic power01:33:34 | The Prioress's Protocol | Confession, conversion, burn the board01:40:29 | The Faceless Man | A truck, a cornfield, and "you die"01:43:21 | The Ouija Renaissance | A warning about sleepovers and store shelves01:44:37 | Three Johns and a Book | The quiz, the summer reading rec, the sign-offSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

They come back to the room, and the board, after being thrown away, is back on the table. If you were to even posit, I guess, Father, what do you think, how is that even possible? Did it float back up there? Or do you think there was just a rip in the spacetime continuum and the supernatural threw it back in the apartment? How is that even? That just blows my number. Look, it's child's play. Much more impressive is in the other Ouija Boer case that we had, where the person

protagonist broke up the board into pieces. And the exact same board comes back together in one piece. From a physics standpoint, it's much more impressive because it's not just the board is being transported. A broken board, a broken particle board, is now put back together. So how does that work? Welcome back to The Exorcist Files, the show where Father Martins informs us about his tax returns, right, Father? That's correct. Okay. And actually, Father, would you say, what's scarier?

The IRS or facing off against Old Scratch? Both are ancient enemies. It depends on who you owe and how much you owe. That's right. Well, and actually, is that an episode we need to do? Are there similarities between how the spiritual realm and the IRS come out? Is it all about agreements, Father? It's all about agreements.

It's all about law. Both encompass very legal realms. those legalities have very real implications. So both of them want to just collect what they think they're owed, right? You bet you. Okay. Well, so any of our friends out there and auditors who are fans of the show, please ignore us on that one.

Ask mea culpa, may I call up. All right, so Father, season three, people are wondering, hey, is it going to be more of the crazy preternatural stuff? I know, obviously, I'm biased because I'm working on some of these cases, and some of them are particularly relevant right now. but what can listeners expect from the upcoming season? They can expect certainly more of the same, but everything is new and different.

But the cases we have lined up for season three, in my opinion, have details that are far more interesting than what we've presented in even the first two seasons. Obviously, what's very interesting, too, is we've been working on this case for a little while. Cultural phenomenon, huge weekend at the box office, a movie called Obsession about a kid dabbling, the occult to try and earn the love of his significant other. Obviously, regular listeners of the show,

no, we would prefer you to woo and court someone rather than turn to a Chachky that would attempt to do this. But it's interesting, Father, we actually do tackle the topic of obsession in the upcoming season, right? Yeah, we do. So we have an episode that will have two cases comprised within it. And it's exactly that, an obsession, a relational obsession, an examination of that. An examination of that, and how really the devil entered in. Now, in the movie, I understand that there was a pact made through a relational gesture that was done, where the individual in question wanted to spiritually seduce this person so that she would be his. However, it doesn't always work like that.

Sometimes an obsession can happen, and you did nothing to bring it on, or so it seems. and in both cases that we have to address, it's one of these examples. So my desire in bringing these cases forward is to teach the listener and to allow you to come into an appreciation of the different aspects of the spiritual life that present themselves. And one of them is this. Like you're confronted. I want you to be confronted with what I am confronted with and trying to get to the bottom

of something that always at first doesn't make any sense to you. So I think the obsession cases that we have, there was not as clean a clue as to how they began. And this is perhaps what makes them interesting and what makes their resolution educational. I think spiritual obsession happens a lot more than what we realize. Now, classically speaking, the label obsession means that it is a partial possession. So in other words, there are aspects of the mind. that are in control of the devil while the body is not. So, in other words, obsession is the last step, if you will, before possession.

But speaking in common everyday language, when someone is obsessed with another person, it can be a different thing entirely. In other words, when someone is obsessed, it doesn't mean that they are partially possessed. But what it does mean is that there is something in their character that is out of their control. They can be very functional and rational in every aspect of their lives, but in terms of their infatuation with someone,

that is completely out of their control. They are obsessed with the individual who is kind of in their crosshairs all the time. They generally speaking will go to bed thinking about that person. They will rise, thinking about that person. They will maneuver their life to put themselves in greater and greater contact

with that individual. individual. Obsession in this sense, so this kind of obsession, is always interesting and can be very difficult to resolve in the sense that we may not know the doorway by which this started. And in terms of the two cases that we have, no doorway was obvious. All right. So, Father, this is one of what I think the craziest cases. I mean, you've got a faceless man. You've got cockroaches appearing in water glasses. You've got a planchette that flies off the walls. You have also strange, it has to burn in a cornfield, which it doesn't burn right away. So in the scheme of things, when you finally were brought into this case, was this one of the crazier ones you've heard? I'm curious where this falls,

because I love the image of, you know, people saying, father, you're never going to believe this. And you're like, try me. Yeah, you know, I've certainly heard a lot of Ouija board cases. At the time, this was the most, I would say, complicated and involved for sure. But I was also very young in my priesthood when this fell out on my lap. So I heard as many of the cases as I have today. Why I wanted to communicate this case in particular is it, A, involved so many people. B, the relationship that they established with the demon was a persistent one, was one that the demon just latched on.

And because of that, the hold was so strong. And that hold was established through the different feats that they asked the demon to do. In other words, the permissions that they gave the demon to cause phenomena to happen, like to make gowan vomit. There was a stop sign above his head that fell on him to make him fall asleep and all that kind of thing. So obviously, those are exactly things that we shouldn't do to a nameless, faceless, voice, a spiritual voice, because you have no idea who you're interacting with, you just don't. And if at any point you think you're safe and you're in control, that is exactly the point

where you are in grave trouble, because you have no control of the situation. I mean, even to get up at that point and walk away, well, you've already established a contact, you've already established a relationship, meaning that you've already granted rights to the demon. Now, Father, a lot of people play with Ouija boards because they're even available at, you know, Target and, you know, toy stores everywhere. In this case, it comes on pretty quickly. We've covered a little bit of this on a lot of episodes, but do you have any idea for our guesses, it's all conjecture, why the board seemed to escalate so quickly with these guys as opposed to the millions of people who would say, oh, I play with Ouija board and nothing's happened? That's always a mystery. You know, why in that

instance and not in another instance. And there are many reasons why. So the biggest one is God chose to permit it. And in a different instance, he might choose to not permit it. The demon itself, or demons, may decide I'm needed somewhere else right now. There's something about this particular potential relationship that really doesn't interest me as much as something else. Now, they can certainly work simultaneously in two different persons. And two completely different parts of the world. They can do that simultaneously with no problem. The point is that for whatever reason,

it didn't take in situation B, where it did in A, the reasons why can be multifaceted. Sure. All right, well, let's roll a clip here as the Ouija board introduces itself. Bro, I need to get this game. Look, okay, assuming we have an actual spirit here, what should we do?

I think we should ask it to. identify itself, just like in the movies, then we know who we're dealing with. Okay. Spirit. Who are you? Identify yourself. Oh, Bro.

There it goes again. And the planchette spelled out, Stevie. I am eight. I am eight? What? Boys, we have a genuine spirit on our hands. Okay. So, like, where do we think it is?

Like, in the room and the board? I guess I'm our minister to the spirits here. Okay, Stevie. Where, um, where are you? All right. So you've heard a lot of names in the exorcism room, father. But Stevie seems a little underwhelming. Obviously, the demon is, uh, masquerading is something.

But why do you think it chose the guise of Stevie? Was that, do you think to lure the boys into playing further and making them think it was a harmless spirit, like a child spirit? Well, that's exactly it. There's a bit of an intrigue. There's a little bit of a sympathy you have. So this is purportedly, allegedly, a child that died. So obviously, if a demon wants to come and establish a relationship, intrigue, such as in this case, is a great way to do that. He's not going to come in a way that is overtly scary. So he wants to avoid that because he wants to draw you in. There's intrigue here. There's interest. There's stuff here that you're going to find interest. So why don't we take this journey together? But either way, no matter what name is said, you should not be playing and you should say no. Let's roll some clips because the Ouija board, they make a mistake and they ask the Ouija board to prove itself. And interestingly, one of the men was very hesitant and very reticent. And there's this weird animosity between them.

So let's roll the clip of some of the phenomena that happened. Stevie, can you prove you are real? Galwyn doesn't believe it. You're provoking it, okay? Yes, Stevie replied, and he spelled out sign. S-I-G-N. Sign, what does a sign mean? Like, we ask for a sign?

Stevie loves a bass. Steve he died 50 years ago, dipshit. Their music is timeless. Maybe Stevie is giving us a sign. Do not like this. Oh, shit. Oh, now. Dude, are you okay?

Oh, dude. Ed, the apartment's owner, had a large stop sign that he had stolen from a street corner held against the wall by one nail. All of a sudden, the stop sign fell off the wall and plop down with a loud thud upon Gowan's head. It's moving again. You all have your hands on it. This is so stupid.

Look for yourself, Gowen. Seriously, enough. Fommit? I'm not sure how you're all going to pull this one off. Oh, whoa! Whoa! What did you? I'm sorry. Oh, what did you eat?

Bro, you're all right? Gowan, you okay, me? Yeah. Okay, so, father, they're testing this thing, which is terrible. And then you have Gowan who is just like, there's something, there's like a beef between Gowan and Stevie there. What do you think was going on there? Well, according to the others in the room, I never did meet Gowen,

but Gowen was very skeptical. He claimed to be an atheist. He didn't believe in anything spiritual. He thought the entire thing was being concocted in order to make him look like a fool. The five others were gathering around and play acting in order to draw him in. And then he thought, the moment that I do, they're going to start laughing and make fun of me and so forth. So there was that kind of skepticism within him, a skepticism that was bona fide. he simply didn't believe in the spiritual, but also it was a skepticism that was rooted in an

apprehension of being the object of a joke, which he didn't want. So as the events are unfolding, he was way more interested in whatever he was doing at the time, drinking his beer or reading a book or playing with whatever he was playing with. But after the repeated phenomenon, after the feats, the, you know, hey, Stevie, can you do? do acts and he is able to do it in an uncanny way. Well, heavens, then it certainly gets his attention. He gets all of their attention. But Stevie never ended his disdain, disgust and hatred for Gowin. And that became the end of that session. Aging. It happens to all of us. Sometimes it's awesome. You get smarter. Well, hopefully.

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If you've got summer travel coming up, now's the time to start, so you can actually use what you learn on the trip. Right now, Babel is offering listeners up to 60% off. Go to babble.com slash X-Files. That's B-A-B-B-B-E-L dot com slash E-X files for up to 60% off. Like most things in life, rules and restrictions may apply. Yeah. So when they're saying make Gowan fall asleep or they're actually messing with it, it's interesting because if I recall, Gowen is not exactly inviting the phenomenon onto himself. The other guys are. They're like, make Gowen fall asleep or throw it. How is it that these guys testing the board can affect Gowen? Because I could see someone saying, well, he's not actually playing. He's actually off on the corner sulking. And yet the phenomena happening to him. Is there a dynamic there that's worth exploring? He was playing, not directly, but indirectly.

In other words, he was permitting the relationship to happen because he was mocking the whole endeavor. He wasn't saying stop. He wasn't walking away. He wasn't moving himself away. He was laughing, mocking, and disdaining everything. And that formed the basis for the hatred that Stevie had of him. And it made Gowan the natural target, which he became,

even when his skepticism was lost. And he joined the others around the table and started playing with the board. himself, that hatred and disdain from Stevie, from the demon on the other side, never stopped. Do you find interesting, though, too, because I know a lot of, we got a lot of feedback on this episode with people say, wait, how could like a stop sign falling, falling asleep unconscious, throwing up, why do you think Alan was so resistant and it took like multiple things to get him to believe in this? Yeah, people are funny.

Like, for you and me, it can take, you know, very little. say, but for someone else it can take a whole lot. And the short answer is I really don't know because I don't know his life. I don't know why he was such a skeptic about spiritual matters. You know, and it would be impossible for me to conjecture without knowing, I think, some of his history there. But like I said, I never did meet him. He is one of the people in that situation, one of the friends who never did convert afterwards. So he never got his life right with God. And his life was an absolute mass after this. One of the dynamics or I think postulated theories in this is that we later learned at the end

of the episode that Gowan was actually in some sin. Do you think that the board's attempt when it finally demanded that they kill him, which is very interesting because on one hand, the demons sort of showed its cards at that point. And one of the things that was thrown out was that was the board trying to go after Gowan because Gowan was in such a state of sin that perhaps it was a demonic ploy to try and cement his fate. So maybe you could, as a two-parter, but what do you think was going on with the boards, you know, ultimately shedding any hesitancy about revealing who it is and saying killed Gowan and then why it wanted to kill Gowan? Truthfully, I think it had to do less with the

state of sin that he was in. So Gowan didn't believe in sin. He didn't have a relationship with God. He didn't believe that God existed. Moral choices are simply human decisions with human implications and they don't have eternal implications. So his conscience was bent a certain way. And so even when he was doing something wrong, he wasn't consciously choosing evil, like not spiritual evil. That being said, I don't think whatever sin he had, like, so there's no question that he had moral wrongdoing on his soul. And of course, he had original sin because he was unbaptized and so forth. But I think my take on the situation,

why he became the target, is because he had such a disdain for, quote-unquote, Stevie. The skepticism that he had towards the whole endeavor, the mockery that he extended towards Stevie, disturbed the demon. He became the natural target because there was an aspect of wanting to crush him, wanting to get revenge on him.

And I think, you know, sadly, it extended even long after the relationship was done and over with with the vast majority of them, but it never became done and finished with Gowan. Yeah. And also it's interesting, too, because we've talked about demons are a very fascinating dichotomy of way smarter than us in one sense, but also, as you've affectionately said, dumber than a bag of hammers, all respect to hammers everywhere. And so was the demon saying, hey, I'll kill him. Was that a lapse in judgment and sort of that rage we hear about?

Or at this point was the demon, I know this is all conjecture, but was part of this, hey, the demon's like, you know what? I have a relationship now because we do seem to see in many of the cases that once there's enough relationship, the demon seems to lose any sense of sort of, you know, timidity. And basically it says, look, I know I got rights now. And now it's like free reign. So anything going on there in that regard? Yeah, for sure.

I think this is a classic example of the devil over-emphasizing his point and over-extending himself. Because in letting out his disdain, in letting out his vitriol against Gowan, what he did. And basically by saying, you know, I want to kill him, that put enough of the disturbance in everyone. That, boom, that's it. The game is done. We're done. So I think it was Matthew. who knocked the planchette off the table and then the planchette,

you know, there was a manifestation of it sailing and gliding across the room and hitting a picture of Jesus and smashing it and so forth. So by this point, with everybody in the room, they had all had enough, at least for that session. They packed up the game, packed up the board, and dropped it down the shoot. And then, of course, we have that disturbing moment where they come back after going to the store buying cigarettes

and whatever else they bought, boom, the board is back on the table, it is spinning by itself and spelling out you die over and over and over again. So obviously that would be disturbing. It would disturb me. The interesting and tragic thing at the same time is the fact that, look, none of these friends, none of this group of friends, by the time that this was done, by this stage in the game, were skeptics about the spiritual world. right so all every one of them believed that it was real that it was authentic but not all of them converting like not all of them went and sought a relationship with god and this is the real mystery of it all you know why did that not happen especially when there was so much harassment so two of them

wanted nothing to do with god you know and even though they saw the others receive healing and freedom and begin to live really happy lives and just be content and have a blessing, frankly, upon them. I became friends with those four, but two of them never changed at all. So they lived in that rut, if you will, with that tangled relationship, that demonic relationship still at play. And when you look at their lives, I'm not connected with them. I don't know them. I've never met them. But certainly others in the group are connected with them or at least know how to reach them

and have some kind of relationship with them to this day, even if it's a distant one, even if it's one that's not close. They at least have an acquaintanceship with them. But their lives were the exact opposite of what the four who converted were. In other words, if it weren't for quote unquote bad luck, they would have no luck at all. And it just happens over and over and over again. So obviously the game gets really out of hand. Demon decides to show its cards.

And they famously, and I think this is the wildest point in the whole. I mean, there's a lot of wild points here. But they throw the board away and go off. And as we've learned and we've said on this show many times that just because you hit game over does not mean game over. They come back. and I remember the first time I heard this and I thought this is I don't even know from the laws of physics how this would happen and I know this is entirely conjecture, etc. But they come back to the room and the board after being thrown away is back on the table. If you were to even posit, I guess, Father, what do you think, how is that even possible?

Did it float back up there? Or do you think there was just a rip in the spacetime continuum and the supernatural like threw it back on the board? I threw it back in the apartment. How is that even, that just blows my mind. I love fruits and vegetables. I love that life, at least according to the Bible, began in a garden. Though I'm convinced that carrots came after the fall, just not a carrot guy. But in reality, think about how God placed us in a garden, and there's all these incredible plants. And then God has all these fruits and vegetables that have specific benefits for us and our bodies in different ways. And that's why it shouldn't be a surprise that a university study found participants who,

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Sure. And the exact same board comes back together in one piece. That's from a physics standpoint. It's much more impressive because it's not just the board as being transported. A broken board, a broken particle board, is now put back together. So how does that work? Well, the demons can do that.

Monsignor Patrick Branken, he told me once of a phenomena that happened in one of his sessions. So he had a pouch, a felt pouch, a bag, where he kept some relics inside it. So the pouch was tied with a drawstring closed. So the drawstring was closed with a knot. As he was getting it out and his intention was to pull the drawstring open in order to get the relics out, the possessed individual grabbed the bag and threw it across the room. Well, in the course of its flight, all the relics inside scattered all throughout the room. So they just kind of spread everywhere along the floor. But the knot on the bag never came undone. Now, the demons,

they can operate much more quickly than what we can perceive. So a fraction of time, and really, because they operate outside of time in no time, they can undo the knot, scatter the relics, and then tie the knot back so that it looks exactly the way it was before. So that's not a big deal for them. In a way that is more impressive, when they can heal particle board that has been broken, that leaves a lasting impression.

Like that, it's kind of sobering. Wow. When they can make a piece of the particle board be in the midst of a fire and be surrounded by it. flames and yet not burn. That's very impressive, huh? It's creepy. So you think it's just, most likely explanation from a spiritual standpoint is that they just were able to manipulate space and time and throw a board back on the, I mean, I just think it's fascinating to think how there

would even be a metaphysical explanation if there was one, you know, I mean, they can defy grab, because we've talked about them defying optics and manipulating light, but in this case, it wasn't an illusion. It was the actual board in a locked room. And so, So is it just teleportation and demons can do that? Yeah, the teleportation thing is child's plate. But the healing of the broken board is obviously much more impressive. Now, the question can arise. Somebody can ask, well, look, if they have this kind of power, if they can heal something that is broken.

And, you know, that board, like a particle board, you know, if they can do that and make the entire thing look the way it was before, why are they not doing this kind of thing all the time? Why are they not manipulating material reality in a way that just puts them in absolute control and kind of holds us hostage, if you will, either through scheming or through absolute fear that we are so impressed of their power? The answer to that question is, simply put, they are able to do what God permits them to do. So there's more at play than just their raw ability, which is impressive. But they're not able to employ that ability without God's permission.

And you know, when you look at the book of Job, you know, we have there. And it's clearly a fictitious story. Job is not an existent character who lived. You know, when you read the story, he's described as an exceptional individual who lives in a land far away. And so even the beginning of the story of the book of Job, you know, sounds like a fable, you know. And there was a man a long time ago in a land far away named Job and so on and so forth. Puff the magic dragon. Job lived by the sea, right? Exactly. But the point is, Job may not be an existent human, someone who actually lived. And you know what? I'm perfectly willing to be wrong about this. But for our point, for our consideration here, it really doesn't matter whether he existed or not.

The point is the principles that are disclosed within that book and the reality that we are made aware of, that is true and that is relevant. And so what happens in that? Well, in the times that Job was attacked by the enemy, the enemy first had to go to God and ask his permission. Sure. Right? So, and the permission was granted, but there was always a limitation imposed. And I think we have to be aware of that. So when the devil comes at us, he is doing so with the permission and with imposed limitations by Almighty God.

We also see Jesus warning Peter and the apostles that Satan has asked to sift them. And so I do think it's entering that permission framework that is there. That is fascinating. Yeah. And Jesus is saying in that moment, he's asked for this and I have denied it. Oh, my answer is no. Well, at least the kind of attack the devil wanted to inflict, the answer is no. But the Lord doesn't say that he denied him entirely.

In fact, the implication seems to be that he granted it. Because that, I mean, to me, that's the only way that his subsequent sentence to Peter makes sense. But I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith may not fail. When you have turned, strengthen your brothers. So I think the Lord is warning Peter, hey, there's an attack coming, but you don't have to worry about it. My prayer is going to buttress you. So obviously, it's given as a strengthening to Peter. It's given as a kind of consolation, but it has the exact opposite effect.

You know, Peter is, it just scares him straight up the wall. And so he doesn't think that Jesus can cleanly win his fight against the devil. That's how I read that part of the gospel. Yeah, at the very least, it does suggest that there is this weird dialogue ongoing, for lack of a better term, between the enemy and God, where, as you've mentioned, episodes, and the demons are kind. They're just, they're somehow communicating and God's saying, you can do this, but not that, this, but not that. Constant accusation, constant defense, you know, and Christ, you know, standing in the gap for us. So, very, very interesting. So.

And isn't it interesting that whenever we hear of that conversation, it's always from the side of, God. The devil himself never reveals it. And I think the reason why is because he hears far more knows than he hears yes from God. Absolutely. Well, that makes sense because I think you've said in other episodes, if the devil had his way, we'd all be dead. And the fact that we're still talking today, although my monitor didn't work when I wanted to start this. So perhaps the enemy was like, can I do this? And God's like, no. He's like, can I do this? He's like, no. And then finally got to the bottom of his list. And he's like, can I make his monitor or not work? And God's like, all right you can do that right so that's what happened that's what happened that's what happened with

iceberg lettuce for you right is that the Satan said I want to make father martins averse to iceberg lettuce and the Lord said you can do that but do not touch anything else right father so you brought that up several times now I feel I need to explain it so after five years ago when I had COVID the second time COVID the second so so the second bout of COVID 19 there was a permanent altering of my sense of taste. And it never became, it's not a dramatic altering, except when it comes to iceberg lettuce, which I absolutely cannot stand now.

I mean, if the lettuce is really, really, really fresh, I might tolerate it. In other words, if it's mixed in with food, it might be tolerable. I don't like it, but it might be tolerable. might be able to get it to swallow it. My gosh, if it has any age to it whatsoever, it just, it tastes like rotting trash. And people don't realize the downstream of cost of this, too, is father and I tried to watch Titanic.

And when they said, iceberg ahead, he panicked and hid because he couldn't see it. That's right. Nothing good can come from the iceberg. Let us or otherwise. All right. Well, let us continue with this episode for the sake of our other. let us romaine come. As they come back, they see the board, they freak out.

Their lives start taking drastic turns as we've documented. So interesting dynamic, right? They leave the game. They think, oh, I'm not playing anymore, but a door's opened. We start seeing manifestations and all their lives. Is that something that should be expected, father? Just because they left the game in the room, the game is, you know, they can say goodbye, but the game doesn't end, right?

The relationship is established. And the relationship is a two-way street. they may want to end it, but legal rights have been given now. So it's not, it's not up to, it's not only up to them. Yeah. And so God ends up using it though. And interestingly, we have a old family connection where I forget which one of the guys remembers that there was a, I think it was, what's the correct term? Is it a covent or is it a cloister for the Carmelites? That's right. There was a local Carmelite convent where cloistered nuns. So these are disgulsed carmelites, which means literally barefooted. And these are the Carmelite. And these are the

Carmelites that are the reform of St. Teresa Avila. So she took the Carmelite model and made it stricter. One of the ways in which she made it stricter is they don't wear shoes. So they'll wear sandals, if you will, as a visual way to stand apart from the colst or the shoe-wearing Carmelite nuns. But they live a very austere life and they live apart from the world. They're very much in the world in the sense that they're. I've always been impressed, in particular with Carmelites, just how connected they are to world events and so forth, because they're praying all the time. So people come by and make prayer requests and so forth, but they're also connected to what is happening everywhere.

And because they are for several hours a day in chapel doing their business with Jesus, they're interceding and pleading on behalf of the world. So one of them, he had been brought there by his mother. and the prioress was always so kind, gentle, and seemed to be a wealth of information. And he thought he would ask her, you know, what should I do to get rid of this? Now, his going there and speaking with her was after he went to a priest and stated,

look, I need your help because this entity from the Ouija board is now haunting us and he's attacking us. And that priest literally laughed at him. He literally laughed at him and just, didn't think that there was anything to this at all. He thought it was completely psychological. You know, so these guys suffered longer than necessary because in a man of God, they found a skeptic to evil. And I, look, I don't know who that priest is, and I don't know what his background was. I don't know what his experiences were, but, you know, heavens, he, you know,

mocking somebody, ridiculing them, laughing at them, is, is, is. always a wrong approach. Regardless, so they went to the priores and she just accepted it all. As a matter of fact, yeah, like you crossed a line there, you transgress. You have a relationship now with this demon. So, A, you've got to go to confession, confess the sin. B, you've got to get your life right with God and follow Jesus in his walk. C, you have to destroy that Ouija board. Burn it. So it was at her direction. Yeah, so every, also, Father, everyone needs a fiery Mother Mary Prius, right, to say, to pray for you and say, go take care of this. Like, Grandma's saying, look, we're knowing what to do here. And they do.

And she tells them, like, dows it. Now, interestingly, they get back to the apartment and the board is no longer active. So the degree of relationship seems to, I think we mentioned, has diminished because they've gone to confession and already started to renounce it. Real quick, though, Father, why? And it's funny, because Father, in the other Ouija board episode, we shared. We actually have three, but we're talking about the one from season two where the priest goes to the Monsignor, and the Monsignor says, you got to burn the board. And I remember hearing this conversation live when we heard the story with the first time. And I thought, wow, that's so

interesting. This seems to be the standard protocol is to, is that actually what's going on there, father? Does the church recommend with, if there are cult items that you've had dabblings with, do they typically recommend you burn it? Is that a, like, doctrinal thing? Or is that more just like a symbolic, like, I'm cutting ties with all this? Well, burning seems to be the most effective way to destroy it, right? Like putting it in water doesn't do what burning does. Throwing it into the trash doesn't do what burning does. So when you burn it, you're altering it at the level of chemical composition.

So the fire ripping through the board is causing a chemical reaction. And so the thing is permanently altered. Even the devil can't restore it at that point. Now, what he can do, the devil is a great con artist and has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, but he could go and get a board that looks exactly like the one that was destroyed, or at least it's the same type. And he can manipulate it. He can age it a certain way.

He can take a pen, and gosh, he's a brilliant artist. So he can put all the markings, he can put all the scuffs that were there and make you believe that this is the same board when in fact it was not. I do think he's capable of putting a board back together that is broken, but he doesn't have to do that.

He can go find one somewhere and bring it back in an instant and in that same instant, mark it up so that it looks exactly like the one that was destroyed. Wow, that's wild. All right, so they get to the field, they burn it, only no, does not burn away.

And then this wild, manifestation. Let's roll this clip here. All right. Maybe we just need to wait. Wait, but how long do we wait? Dude, this is crazy. I don't know. Okay, maybe there's something happening in the spiritual realm. Isn't there a Bible verse on that or something? Seriously, bro? I just opened a Bible for the first time last week. Okay, let's just have faith.

God, help us please. Is that a prayer? I, you know, I'm just trying to make this. Shit, bro. That's a truck coming in. Damn. Uh, do we put it out? Just play cool.

Okay, we have a fire. We're just in by a fire. Yes, just act like it's our... Yeah, cool, cool, cool. Suddenly, a truck pulled off the road and turned down the path they were on with its headlight shining. They know that they're on someone else's property

and their hearts are pounding because of it. Dude, it's just pulling up. Uh, just tell them what came? Uh, hey, sorry, we're, uh... The truck, those eyes, Jesus, please help us. Oh, God, please protect us, please. Please, please.

The truck didn't stop, but slowly past them. Once the headlights had passed, what they saw was an old man dressed in a checkered shirt and in overalls, but he had no face. No mouth, no, no. and no eyes. Just skin over a flat, featureless skull. Yeah, so truck driver rolls through the field, they think it's the owner, and it's a

faceless man saying the same phrase they've heard throughout, you die, you die. Father, what the heck was going on with this? You know, in a word, I don't know. I mean, I, the faceless guy is a mystery to me. It certainly is creepy. it was creepy for them. Kind of, to be honest, I find it less creepy, though, than the other elements of the story. To me, that's the part of the story that seemed kind of the most Hollywood about it.

I mean, if I were going to create a Ouija board story out of nothing, I wouldn't add an element like that in it because it just, I don't know, the creepy aspect kind of drops with it. To me, it's kind of silly. It's weird. I grant that. It could have been a scare tag. I mean, that's one thing I think about is it could have been a last-minute attempt to... Well, it's certainly raised. It raised the tension in that moment. So think about it. They're in a field that doesn't belong to them. They're trespassing. They have built a fire and now they're caught. So they never anticipated that it was a demon. But when it goes by, when that faceless thing goes by, then they knew that it was. And if you recall, it goes into the cornfield. And after about 20 or 30 feet of being in the car, the car just simply disappears. But that presence of that thing, whatever it was, was a sign that the relationship was ended.

Because it was at that point then that the piece that said no caught fire was burned and became totally consumed in that fire. Weird. But they cried out to God and then they were able to destroy the board. And God, for his part, allowed all of this to happen. Look at the end result. They were better after having gone through this than, before having gone through it. Man, so wild. And it's interesting, too, because we've heard just so many cases like this. And the board wouldn't burn.

And what was really interesting for me is actually I had a friend, a very good friend who came to me after this case came out and said, hey, one of his dearest friends, they had the same thing where they got rid of a board and they came back to their car and it was back on top of the board. So weird, you hear it once, you go weird, hear it twice, you go very strange, you hear it three times and you say, again, get rid of it.

I had a Ouija board in our house, actually, from when I was a kid, because it was a joke, someone got as a birthday present or a joke, and it just sat in my cupboard. And I remember when we first started working together, I found that board and I threw it away. Okay. Because I think I played it when I was 10 years old,

and the side effect is the dad jokes. So we got to get you to confession, right? That's right. You know what? Soon as you let me, you know, that's a tough one, you know? Father, any closing thoughts on this case? Ouji boards in general, just take home message you want everyone to,

remember as we reflect on this case. Yeah, you know, like one of the really disturbing things is just there seems to be a renaissance in it. I mean, there clearly is. Look on Amazon. Look, like you said, at your local target and then Walmart and so forth. This seemingly stupid, silly game is making somebody a lot of money. It is a perennial bestseller. And people, look at the comments on Amazon that people are leaving, that they're buying it specifically

for their kids and their friends at sleepovers to keep them occupied with the spirit realm and stuff. My gosh, they have no idea the doors that they're opening and the potential grief and aggravation that they're subjecting their kids to and their kids' friends. But it really is disturbing. Like, there's clearly a paganization of the West occurring, and this is one of the expressions of it. Say no to Ouijis. Say no, not we, right? That's right.

Don't say we. Say no. Get out. Just, just, yeah, that's right. No more. Okay. All right, Father, it's become a little tradition that I give you three names to pick from. Are you ready to play three Johns? Should I be? I guess I am. I'll give you a quote. You tell me which John. All right. Was it John Paul II? John Adams or John Wesley. You ready? Yep. Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought. That's John Paul II. No question. Great job. Okay. Okay. Facts are very stubborn things.

That is John Adams. Great. And the third one, since you'll get it, and it would have been, you would have gotten it. It's Wesley is, do all the good you can, by all the means you can, and all the ways you can, and all the places you can. At all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you can. Wesley. There you go. The process of elimination. That's right.

And Father, for those heading out to the beach and vacation, they're wondering, what's a good summer book to read? Any Rex? The Exorcist Files. And folks, if you haven't gotten your copy yet, please do so. And you know what, it would be so appreciated. If you would leave a review on Amazon and on Goodreads and whatever platform from which you bought it, certainly it affects the algorithm of the book on those platforms, on those selling platforms. And it translates. translates into more sales, and I don't make any money off of them. I've surrendered the profits of it. However, it means that more people will get a book that talks about the gospel into their hands, and I think we can all agree that such a thing is a benefit. Absolutely. And for clarity, Father, it is a deep dive into your cases and theology and all the crazy stuff that people love, not a coloring book, right? That is correct. Okay. All right. Color inside the lines, folks. You've been listening to The Exist Files.

Thanks for joining us. We'll see you real soon. God bless you all.