The Exorcist Files - Halloween and Day of The Dead

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

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Hello, Exorcist Files fans. Hey, thanks for listening. We really appreciate your support. And the good news is we have dramatic case files on the way. In fact, we should have them in just several weeks. Oh, I'm so excited. Some good ones. I really think you're going to love them.

Again, thank you for continuing to support us over the years, especially with the vault. That support helps make the show possible. The show is incredibly expensive to do, and that support helps sustain us. And if you are a vault member, make sure you take advantage. listen to the bonus episodes. They ask me anythings are great. In fact, we have one with Father Gregory Pine this week that I think you'll really enjoy.

Also, if you're new to the show, it's not just interviews, go back and listen to the dramatic episodes from season one and, of course, all the ones from season two. Thanks again, friends, and here's Deacon Charlie Itcheveri to share some incredible wisdom and stories. Enjoy. Welcome back to The Exorcist Files special seasonal extravaganza with a first-timer guest and dear, dear friend of mine joining us on the show today,

Deacon Charlie, Etche Veri. Because it's Echeverry, great day when we can have him on the show. Wow. Even remember the mnemonic device, that's great. It's a very nice name. Thank you, Ryan, for having me on. Absolutely. Now, you are a long-time listener and first-time interviewee,

so perhaps you could introduce yourself to the fans. Correct, yeah, long-time fan of yours and, of course, Exorcist Files. So I'm Deacon Charlie Etcheveri. I'm a deacon of the Arts Diocese. of Los Angeles. I was ordained in 2017. I'm also, well, child of God, husband, father of five, preacher, speaker, podcast host, etc. Friend of Ryan Bethay, you know, lots of those. Don't forget that. You know, that's the newest one. So it's hard for me to remember. But yeah, I have my first book

coming out in February of next year. Amazing. And it's not canonical, but I hear it's fantastic. Correct. It's not canonical. In fact, interesting because like one of the things that I've been thinking about lately as this as that book goes to press is I wonder if like I said anything incorrect. I mean, I don't think I did. But I don't, to my knowledge, it hasn't gone through, you know, kind of an impromodder process. But given the subject, I think it'll be okay if I kind of fudge something at the margins. But I don't think I did for the record. Well, I love to, I do wish we could publish like every few years updated versions of your book. And then they, as they understand better what you mean over time, they could do little, you know, notations at the bottom. Like he said this, but this is

what he really meant. We could have used that for some of the ancient writings for sure. That's right. The NRSV version of Deacon Charlie's book. Ooh. So now I want to start us off on a little bit of an ecumenical note because every episode is too Protestant or too Catholic. It's too scary or too boring.

It's too theologically dense or it's not theologically dense enough. So I just, in the spirit of ecumenical dialogue, let's, two questions. What is something you deeply love and appreciate? about your Protestant brothers and sisters? And then what do you love about your Catholic faith? Well, I think the first one that comes to mind about question number one has probably been said before, but is, for the most part, my Protestant brothers and sisters present company included is the deep love of

scripture that exists. And, you know, I feel that oftentimes that is something that even though shouldn't be the case in a lot of Catholic settings is sadly true, that, you know, many Catholics are not as deeply steeped into scripture, even though, you know, liturgies are pretty much wall-to-wall Bible, but nevertheless, if you ask your kind of garden variety Catholic to quote something from the Gospels or, you know, whatever, who was Isaiah or what year did, you know, Judas, Maccabias live, I mean, things like that. You're just not going to get, well, actually, on that last one, you might not get a good answer

from a Protestant. Yeah, I'm about saying, I didn't get Maccabias down. Right. But my point is, I think the love of scripture, I think is something that I deeply respect. that and also I'll add a one a answer intercessory prayer I can I tell just a really brief please little anecdote so at a time in my corporate career where I was going through some extraordinarily difficult things there was a guy on my team who I didn't know at the time was a serious evangelical and at one point of vulnerability because like I hadn't slept in six months

and he knew something was wrong with me and he just asked he kind of took a shot even though he reported to me as it's always that weird kind of like boss employee dynamic. But he took me aside and he's like, is everything okay? There's something wrong with you. And literally that question when you're not expecting it, especially in a corporate setting, can be very disharming. And I think it just shocked me.

And so like obviously I confirmed it by my action. Anyway, he said, do you mind? He said, I'm a Christian. Do you mind if I pray for you because I believe in the power of prayer, especially in recessory prayer like while I'm here in front of you? And I said, of course, sure. And he did. And it always stuck with me.

This was years and years and years ago, as I was, even before I went through my own kind of reversion to Christianity. And anyway, it really stuck with me. So that's something else that I would say. Scripture and the power of prayer, spontaneous prayer, verbal prayer, just like, I love it. And then what I love about my own Catholic faith? Man, a lot. There's a line in the Psalms, the cup of salvation I will raise.

I always think about that during the liturgy when I'm elevating as a deacon, the precious blood. So I would say the Eucharist, the Eucharistic celebration is probably one of the things that comes to mind. And maybe just to add like a B to that since we did a 1A. And I know the answer is always, it's funny, the answer is always the Eucharist if you pull like nine out of ten Catholics, but what else would you like Protestants too? Then I'm going to change my answer. Incense. There you go. How's that? Incense? I thought you're going to say the communion of saints, the power of relics. You're like, you want incense is what we're missing out on? Incense. That's something that I really deeply.

deeply love about the liturgy anyway. It's just nice. You know, revelation, the prayers of the faithful going up to God to heaven brought to God by the angels. So yeah, I amend my answer. Eucharist is still pretty important. Okay. All right. Well, yeah. What's the one B? No, I was going to say, is there something you feel that Protestants miss out on? Oh. God. God. God. No, but you know, Eucharist, obviously, no. I mean, that's, Peter Kreefs has said that many times that, like, if that's the ultimate act of intimacy, then you're kind of missing the whole point. And so I, I, I, I, appreciate the consistency in that logic. But, you know, I also, for example, I, as I dive into

the question of can death, it seems scriptural that death cannot separate us from those who've gone on. Obviously, it's the question of what is appropriate as far as them. But I just, I do love the idea that whether or not I can influence them directly, but I do love the idea that people in heaven could still be praying for me. Obviously, whether or not I'm supposed to ask them directly, I'm still thinking through that. But I love the idea that, I mean, yeah, they're alive. In fact, I would argue they're more alive in heaven. And I love the idea that they're like even up there with God going like, yo, God, like, Brian needs some help. Let's pray for him, you know?

I love that. We mentioned Maccabee, well, Judas Maccabees, who was a character of the Duder Canonicals, so the Old Testament in the Catholic Bible. But Second Maccabees 15 actually is one of the verses that speaks about that intercession of those in heaven praying for us, right? Interceding for us because they are, just like you said, more alive after passing than perhaps they were even walking around the earth. And like, why wouldn't you be?

Like the whole idea, even if you dispense from any kind of theological knowledge or even a Catholic Protestant divide, the idea that as we sort of move, if we've led a life in friendship with God and as we transition to that next plane, the idea that we're more, that we're closer to God, it would make sense that we would be a fuller version of ourselves, right? And that whatever relationships we had on earth might be perfected, whatever ability we had to listen to our friend might be improved.

Like, all of that seems very just logical that it would follow. And then you've got a lot of, you know, scripture that supports that in terms of us kind of coming to the fullness of who we are in Christ and all of that. So I think it makes a lot of sense, even without getting into the weeds of any, you know, sort of Protestant Catholic divides or anything like that. It just, it kind of follows, you know, if we're in the beatific vision, I would think we would get some element of kind of super power that God would allow us to have. Well, if James 5 is correct, right? If the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective, I'm going to hope and assume that when you get to heaven, you are a lot more, like your righteousness is cemented at that point, right?

100%. Availeth much. Absolutely. There you go. All right. So, Deacon, I know, obviously you as someone in ministry you deal with a lot in spiritual warfare but not traditionally as we've talked about not doing a lot in in the exorcism room but i'm curious you know being in southern california being in los angeles and being and coming from the high-powered corporate world i got to think spiritual warfare is as strong there as it is anywhere and i'm always amazed at sort of the lies that we can buy into and sort of drive ourselves into our own graves essentially so you've got a beautiful of sort of coming out of like just, you know, extreme insomnia overworking, et cetera. But it's a really beautiful story.

And I was hoping you might be willing to, you know, share some of it with us today. Yeah, 100%. Love to. So, I mean, you would ask me over text a while ago about spiritual attacks. And, you know, to your point, I haven't experienced them in the way that audiences to this show are more used to hearing about. Praise God. Praise God.

in the sense of like full-blown deliverance and exorcism. But, you know, the enemy never sleeps and he prowls around like a lion, as St. Peter says. And I definitely have experienced spiritual attacks. One of them being just absolutely devastating insomnia that hit me out of nowhere, so much so that I went a period of time of nine months sleeping maybe one or two days a week for that period of time. all at the same time raising a young family, having this ridiculous corporate kind of career that has requirements that, frankly, no one should have

or attempt to have. And the thing about the corporate world is that it's a black hole because you can give it as much as you got. You can work, I mean, you can work 24 hours a day and that world will say, what else you got? What else have you done for me, right?

So it's a complete fool's errand to try to like get to capacity in that universe. So in any case, I was hit with devastating bout of insomnia. Insomnia and, you know, I pray that the Lord spares anyone from this in the sense that I had it. I mean, we all have insomnia nights, but not a consistent period of time where literally you're hallucinating because you haven't slept, right? and you have to attempt to do things normally. It was a very lonely time.

That's the thing about insomnia. Insomnia is very lonely because you end up having like almost two lives. And it's very much demonic insofar as the devil loves to divide, right? That's how you know he's speaking to you. He's only got two languages. Division and accusation, right? So division, he wants to divide everything about you, even your literal life, right? So keep your mask on, live in a compartment.

and then to my experience, we'll even have you have two completely different lives, one during the day and one at night. And the life at night was everybody else was asleep, and of course you're the person who can't sleep, and you don't want to commit the ultimate insomniac sin, which is to wake others up because of your insomnia. So there's this great generosity of spirit that hit me as an insomniac,

where I wanted the person sleeping to remain sleeping so much because I knew and appreciated what sleep was for the first time. So the last thing you want to do is wake anybody else up. So you end up leading this totally alternate existence, right? And you try everything, reading, working out, sitting in bed, just closing your eyes, whatever. None of it worked for me. And again, it would be literally one or two nights a week that I would sleep and normally passed out on a couch somewhere, not at the appropriate time.

So anyway, that was during. this corporate career that I had, which I've already mentioned was, you know, for anybody in that world is a very difficult thing. And it was during that time that I finally, my reversion to the faith really began in earnest because I completely utterly was driven literally to my knees to total surrender. And I recognized for the first time also the difference between surrender and giving up, which I never even considered, right? The difference being, you know, giving up, is quitting, right? It's saying you're not worth, I myself am not worth anything else. Surrendering, I always kind of viewed as sort of this falling back lovingly into the arms

of somebody who's there to catch you because you're just, you need help and you're asking for help from someone who can help you. And anyway, just to kind of sum it up, I had kind of had myself at the center of my universe for many years as an executive in the media and entertainment industry. And this experience brought me to my spiritual and literal knees, surrender then ensued. Eventually I got, you know, some sleep. But I, I use that anecdote and a fuller version of it to help people who have similar kind of career walks understand what's, you know, at stake. And yeah, it's been a blessing to be able to share that experience. I did at one point, final thought, you know, hear God whispered to me. I've had, like, I know God talks to all

of us all the time. And I know I've felt him all throughout my life on an almost daily basis in a variety of ways. But I've only heard him literally speak to me, literally like words that came into my head. I knew they were God three times. One time was when he told me that he had not called me for leisure, which is a word I never used. She's like, I have not called you for leisure. So like, you're not going to be like just sitting around there on your death. There goes your bestselling book, called to leisure by Deacon Charlie. That was number one. The second one. The second one, was do not seek me among the dead because I was very what we were talking about earlier, right? Very much into nostalgia, the macabre, kind of like started to orient myself into the direction

of those things rather than the transcendent. So that was one, another very clear one. And the third one was this idea that he would never allow me to not sleep again. Amen. Father Martin's here. I want to do a quick plug for one of the most powerful tools I've seen for breaking free and growing closer to Christ. Exodus 90. The Exodus 90 challenge begins this year on January 20th, but this isn't just a 90-day program. Exodus 90 is a spirituality for modern men that is built on three ancient pillars, prayer, self-sacrifice, and fraternity. We all long for something more. We long to be the men God created us to be, sons of a loving father. It's time to turn away from our idols. It's time to break free from the pharaohs that hold us in bondage.

If you're ready to make a fresh start and embark on a journey to uncommon freedom in Jesus Christ, then download the Exodus 90 app today. This is your chance to break free, refocus, and rediscover who God is calling you to be in the new year. It starts January 20th. So go to Exodus 90. dot com slash x files to learn more about ex-90. That's exodus 90.com slash e-X files to join tens of thousands of men from all over the world for Exodus 90. Again, it begins Monday, January 20th. God bless you. So he allowed me to pass you that period of time, but I never fear insomnia.

since having it for that year that I had it, almost a year, because he promised me he would not walk me through that gauntlet again. Now, that doesn't mean it's not going to be other gauntlets, but at least that one, he spoke to me about and told me that I'm not going to experience it again. And was it resolved without pharmaceutical aid? Yeah, thanks me to God, because I had enough sense to know that from, again, to your point, people in these worlds who like just lead these crazy lives, I had so many executive friends of mine that were on drugs, on ambient, were massive alcoholics,

people who had completely alternate lives, who had sets of families even, like that were separate from their other family. I mean, so I came across everything in my media and entertainment career, literally everything. And drug use, not in, not illicit drugs, but like pharma drugs was like, I mean, every day. So, no, I never did take pharmaceuticals because I was really afraid of the sort of side effect. and I already felt crazy. I didn't need to add crazy to the experience. I did, however, when the night before I finally fell to my knees was before a board meeting,

and it was 3 o'clock in the morning. I hadn't slept in three days. I was the one who had to present at the board meeting with a bunch of lunatics, all who wanted to take you down. And I remember drinking like a half a bottle of the stuff for allergies. A NyQuil or Benadryl. Benadryl. Benadryl, because that made me sleepy.

I remembered from when the kids were little, they took allergy stuff. They went to sleep right away. So I was like, okay, I'll drink like this whole bottle of Benadryl. So I did do that. I did try to self-medicate that way, but never with any pharmaceuticals or serious drugs, thanks be to God.

So would you say in conclusion that once you got your spiritual compass pointed at True North, and once you resolved kind of the inner turmoil that the sleep followed through and God healed you of it? Yes. Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt. It took literally surrender. go for runs with the rosary, which I wasn't a devotee of. And I'm praying as I'm running with the long

rosary, not the cute little ring. You know what I mean? I'm like, I got the rosary. It's hit my knees. It makes no sense. I'm on a business trip on Brickle Avenue. I don't even have the right workout gear. So like I would do that and just pray. I surrender. I surrender. I surrender. Like after that episode over and over and over again. And when I kind of took the spotlight off of me, because I loved it on me, When I took it off of me is when the Lord let that trial pass of insomnia. So in the words of Saint Cheap Trick, surrender. Yes, which by the way, I saw Cheap Trick live in concert, believe it or not. They opened from Robert Point.

Dude, Robert. Oh, wow. Okay. Solo album, not Led Zeppelin, people. Come on. I'm not that old. All right, Deegan, I want to start us off since we're going to be talking about death, Halloween, Dio Moritos, all sorts of things today.

the spooky, this is a show that dwells spooky. You told me something I was embarrassed I didn't know about and there's a new class of monster that I was unaware of and that is the Duendes. And I thought, what is that? And it sounded particularly chilling. Could you enlighten the listeners on what a Duende is and how you came to know them? Yeah. So when I was a kid, my family's from Columbia, but apparently Duendez, by the way, do not know no geographic bounds because there are Duendez in other Latin American countries, apparently. But when I was a kid, we would go to Columbia for the summers and visit our family. And so we'd spend like a month there. That's how I grew up every summer we'd be in Columbia. And, you know, this is pre-Internet, obviously, and even pre-gaming systems. So there was a lot of

outdoor stuff and a lot of story time and campfires and the Colombian version of those things. And my mom in particular, not just her, there were aunts that my aunts and uncles and stuff that did this as well. But my mom. had a propensity for telling stories about these duendes. And duende, when I say that word, the first thing that sort of pops into my head is almost like a leprechaun. And the word duende is this sort of,

is it an acronym? No, it's a portmanteau maybe. Yeah, portmanteau of dueno de la casa. So it means owner of the house. So duende is kind of taken a couple of letters from each of those words and mash them together. But the idea of him is that, there are these, in Spanish you would say,

Espiritus inquietos, which is disquieted spirits, like mischievous spirits. And they manifest in the form of kind of gnomes or leprechauns or short, very short, adult-looking entities. Okay. And the stories that my mom would tell about these duendés were not like, oh, have you heard about the Loch Ness monster? It was my cousin, you know, Clara saw one, right?

In particular, I'll share one as an example. My grandmother, my mother's mother, when she was a girl, told a story about going to visit her cousins. And one of the cousins was this very pretty little girl who was blonde and was green-eyed. And apparently she had a dwinday admirer. and it turns out that my grandmother and her little cousins all went out. This happens in the woods a lot because Dwayndes habit the forests and the, you know, the woods. Like fairies kind of. Like fairies, right, or gnomes or elves, that kind of thing.

And they were, you know, out one day in this sort of like field. And the girl who was the object of the Dwenday's affection, like caught her attention. So she was convinced she saw him and then try to tell the other girls, oh, no, there he is. Let's look for him. Eventually, they climbed to the top. of a tree to see if they could spot them. And according to my mom, my grandmother did see the dweende, who was in pursuit of this young girl. And it wasn't just that episode, but like many episodes of this kind of weird attraction to children, which the dwindas have a reputation for. Now,

you know, they're called mischievous spirits, right, or mischievous things that they don't mean you any harm, blah, blah, blah. But from like a Catholic standpoint, is like really clear. There's either like good or bad in this case. And so these guys would fall into, to the extent that they're real and they're not just some, you know, product of like a lot of coffee and areapas. These things are likely demonic. And from what I've gathered, there's even some exorcists who have talked about these, you know, kind of full-chloric things like gnomes and leprechauns and whatnot. And to the extent that they're real, They're demonic.

So, yeah, but Dwendez is part of the, you know, kind of Latin American imagination. They're also big in Mexico. And, yeah, they're kind of like imps of the forest who are mischievous spirits. Man. So if you see a gnome, call Rome, right? Very quickly, 100%, because you're probably looking at, to the extent it's real, again, it's probably not good. Don't be a gnomin Catholic. So that's great.

It's that special time of year. When we get together, perhaps we carve pumpkins, we see a skeleton hanging on the wall somewhere, and it's appropriate. And I always think if aliens came down and observed us during this time of year, they would go. This is very interesting. People dress up in costumes, and every year we get a billion questions about the appropriate way to think about Halloween, perhaps it's companion holiday, Dia de los Mueros, which I know you have a special connection with. And obviously just the topic of reflecting on mortality and death, which is ever present this time,

of years. So I know you've got some awesome thoughts. So maybe we could just start off on how do you at your, with your parish and the people you interact with, how do you help people think through an appropriate way to view Halloween in this time of year? Well, I'd like to start with, you know, liturgically, if it's in a parish setting. So, you know, for example, in the liturgical calendar in the Catholic Church, there really is a bit of a tritium, a three-day kind of marking of that particular season. It happens on the eve of All Saints Day. All Saints Day is November 1st. On the eve of that day, that's October 31st, as we know in sort of typical, you know, everyday language is Halloween. That is the beginning point of this Tritum, this sort of three-day liturgical walk,

where you've got the Eve of All Saints. November 1st is All Saints, the recognition of all of our brothers and sisters who have gone before us who are now in the glory of the Beatific vision. Then November 2nd is what the church defines as the feast of all souls, which is kind of broadening the specter, not just those souls that we know, either because the church has canonized them or otherwise, that they are in heaven in the beatific vision, but more broadly, those who have passed that we pray passed in friendship with God. And so we pray for their souls and all of that. That's November 2nd.

So you've got this kind of like three-day drumbeat, right? the eve of all saints, All Saints Day, and then All Souls Day. And so when I talk about it, at least in the parish, I try to sort of isolate it or start the conversation anyway from a kind of liturgical and historical standpoint. A lot of people don't know, even that the word Halloween is kind of like this sort of amalgam or this, what do you call that, by the way, when like a word, because you say it so much and fast, it becomes another word. Is there a word for that? There is, and I don't have the word handy, but we'll make sure to edit that in later. We'll dub it in. Yeah, it's like whatever that is has happened with that particular word, Halloween, which, if you slow it down, go to like, you know, 0.5x speed, was at one point all Hallows Eve, the Eve of all Hallows or the Eve of all Saints, because that's what Hallow means, a saintly person.

And so that idea of Halloween, as least as we understand it today, has its origins in the same liturgical trituum that I just kind of described. Most of the people in my parish, Ryan, have no clue about that. So I like to maybe start with that. And by the way, I'm not trying to be ungenerous to my parish. It's just kind of one of these obscure things that people don't, you know, kind of like sort of you can gloss over very easily. So I probably start from that standpoint. Now, because my parish, and I know we're going to get into this, also has a very, healthy and significant Latino population,

all souls day in a number of Latin American countries, especially Mexico, is also overlaps or is regarded as Dia de los Mueros. And so there is a lot of like custom and folklore and, you know, things that are really tied to Latin American heritage that I would use as a means to explain what it is that we're doing during those three days.

And the whole month of November is actually dedicated liturgically for, you know, the deceased for souls who have gone on before us. So that's probably how I would start to tell the story and then, you know, kind of evolve it from there. So, and I don't know this, but do you know when Halloween's, now I've heard that there was some occupied countries, and I think it was Gaelic or Celtic, you know, peoples that started trying to mock the evening before All Saints Day to try and that's where it's kind of the origins of the sort of secular version of Halloween. I'm sure it's much more complex than that. But how do you, you know, this is always a

question that comes up from, you know, especially in evangelical circles, it's like, oh, I will never have my kid dress up. Like if I had, I heard a talk by a pastor's like, if you put on a costume, you are assuming like a demonic identity, right? And I've had others, like I have another friend as a pastor and his family goes as Trappist monks for Halloween. And they go Bob for apples and stuff. And so I thought, you know, different strokes for different folks. But it is obviously, but obviously we know that Halloween can also veer off into the macab and a sort of free reign to, oh, it's Halloween and you can totally inadvertently worship or idolize dark and demonic stuff. And I've talked with enough people in the exorcism and deliverance community who have confirmed that that particular

evening, there is heightened spiritual forces, particularly of the dark side that are active. So maybe you could always walk through, you know, what's the appropriate way to start like viewing Halloween in the secular sense that we know it? Well, I think that a lot of this does tie into the history. I'm not an expert or historian on this, but what I have read, there is truth in what you said that at least initially when these traditions began to take place. By the way, just for the record, the All Saints Day as a feast in the Roman liturgy and the Catholic liturgy was established in the 700. So this goes back quite a while, you know, 13 centuries in terms of its establishment. But even before that, it was a feast honoring martyrs, specifically. those who had died for the faith or for hatred of the faith. So it evolved from this feast of martyrs into this recognition more broadly of all of those who had died that we knew were in heaven. And to the point you made earlier, the night before, to the extent that costumes and things evolved, they were usually related to, I don't know the citation in scripture, but we can find it,

the idea of death, where is thy sting? Right. It was a way almost of kind of mocking the idea that, like, oh, you're going to die. Well, so what? Look at the glory that, and wait for us, why would we be scared of death? At some point, and my guess is this is actually pretty recent, but at some point it went from this idea of either, you know, kind of jesting or mocking death or mocking the fear of death to this kind of now, at least in certain places that I've seen, a kind of reverence of just gore and gruesomeness.

And, you know, the macab I'm not even that concerned with because macabre are things that are a little bit sort of creepy because they involve, you know, the beyond, right, either the preternatural or the supernatural. But the gore, the ghoulishness, the blood, the sin, the overlap between even some of those things and sexual things. Like you, you tend to see a lot in Halloween and modern times. All of that stuff, my guess is as much newer. And I think spiritually a lot more dangerous, right?

because you're really pivoting the whole idea from we're about to celebrate the feast of all saints, those who are with God in heaven, in the beatific vision, the fullness of who they are, and in love forever, and joy forever. We've gone from that. So therefore, why should I be scared of anything? We've gone from that to, oh, yeah, like a chainsaw lopping somebody's head off. So the whole intention and orientation of what we're doing has completely changed. And I think that's where, you know, this sort of spiritual danger.

at least in park can come in. Now, I am, it's why we talked about us a little earlier. I love the aesthetic that arises from this time of year, particularly with Dia de los Mordos. And although I'm not Latino, I enjoy a lot of tacos. So I don't know if that offers me any sort of grafting into the vine. It does. And you speak Spanish.

Come on. You speak Spanish. So I'm curious, could you just give a little primer to those wondering, like, oh, what is Dia de los Mortos? And also, maybe you could talk a little about, you know, some people like, oh wait, it's like a cool little tradition. I love Coco, the movie, but or others like, no, like Catholics seem to be really obsessed with death and it's unhealthy.

And so I know there's some interesting lessons to be derived from that. So maybe a little primer for us. Well, I'll do my best. I mean, let's start in reverse, the obsession with death. And I can understand where that might come from, particularly if you are a person who likes history and you look at old paintings and sculptures and even some churches in Catholic world. actually a few that are literally made of skulls and bones. You probably have covered it at some point

or somebody else has on the show. So I understand that. All of that is sort of a physical expression of a Christian principle that comes from the monastic tradition of Memento Mori, which I'm sure you've also talked about on the show, is just sort of this idea of remembering our death will come, our mortality will come. And that's really just a way to keep you oriented on what the eternal is, rather than focusing on, you know, the material of the present moment or this world, rather, to have your eyes kind of fixed on heaven, right, which is ultimately the goal. So I can see how that can be sort of misunderstood as a focus on, on death, but what the true Catholic understanding would be is to not forget your death, right? Your death will come, my death will

come, everyone's death will come, and what comes after is kind of what this journey is all about, so we ought to be ready for it. That's sort of the idea. In terms of Dia los Mueros, and again, not a historian, not an expert, but here's the way that a humble deacon from Los Angeles understands this thing. So there are effectively two schools of thought. There's one school of thought that says, and from what I understand, this is kind of the pervading one, that says what you see in Latin culture, particularly Mexican culture, is really simply put the effects of the Christian missionaries

who came to the Latin American continent, Mexico specifically, mostly in the 16th century, and brought the idea of All Saints and All Souls into these cultures, and this is how these cultures expressed All Saints and All Souls as kind of liturgical moments. So that's like one school of thought. There's this other school of thought

that tends to say, well, no, no, wait a minute, this isn't a Christian thing. This is something that came way before, Aztec, Mayan, Incan, whatever. There's like this indigenous of the, you know, day that is supposed to be pre-Christian and where the dead were honored and there's altars and there's offerings and all this other stuff. From what I've understood, I'm probably going to, you know, upset whoever your resident,

indigenous expert might be in the audience. But from what I've understood, there is no direct archaeological or documentary evidence of a November death festival in anything that's pre-Christian in Latin America. America. So my most educated guess and how I've always known it is that the Dia de los Mueros is the cultural expression of the Feast of All Souls. That's how I've understood it. Now, there are some specifics about how that's, you know, expressed that we can kind of go into. But just the starting point is that what you see with the skull paint and the Coco movie and like all this other stuff and that whole aesthetic of, you know, very colorful things and the, you know,

the particular type of, yeah, iconography and everything else, that is the sort of Latin American or cultural expression of All Souls Day, the same Christian holiday that we just talked about earlier. I love this because we are talking about, you know, death today, but maybe using Dios Murtos and all souls and all hollows as a jumping off point, these like three-day periods. So, you know, how do you start this conversation, like using this time of year? What are the reflections that you want your parish that you want Christians, honestly, just anyone to reflect on as we enter in right though even the weather compliments it right is even here in soCal yeah you can tell even we've had beautiful sunny days but at night it's crisper and there's something about shortened days and a slower pace

that just invites the sort of reflection and it's just as well as we begin the the holiday season right where we start preparing for even Thanksgiving and all that stuff so you know what are some thoughts you have for us as far as this time of year and as we kind of start you know reflecting on even death Well, I mean, I think that, you know, some of them I've touched on at least briefly already, and that is the first principle, which is that our time here on this earth will pass. You know, I come into contact, as you can imagine, in ministry with a lot of people who have either recently experienced a death of a loved one or with people who are very sick in a hospital or that kind of setting.

And of course, there's a moment pastorally to share this kind of stuff, but something that's pretty prominent in my preaching and teaching and just accompanying folks is to remind them that while this can be shocking and scary and difficult and whatever, that it's also something very natural, something that God has allowed to take place, death as the sort of the consequence of sin, but that Christ has redeemed that death and through that same doorway, we ourselves can live with him. So in the end, yeah, maybe 2,000 years ago plus, death would have been a far scarier prospect. But since the advent of Christ,

it's also our doorway to him. So the idea of having death before us and understanding it on one side can be daunting, but on the other side is actually kind of a very fruitful, joyful sort of thing. I feel like the monks have the best attitude about this, right? If you ever gone to a monk, have you been to a monk's funeral, by the way?

Kind of a weird question. Just an uptown monk. Okay, I don't even know what that means. Yeah, it was the song, Uptown Funkhart. Oh, got it. Okay, okay. So anyway, I haven't been to too many, thank God, but I've been to a couple. And what you'll see is the monks are, yeah, I mean, they're recognizing the person who's passed, but they're not sad because in a way, and I've talked to a few of them about this dynamic, because you'll see it. It's like, it's very kind of matter of fact, right? And these are people who live with each other for decades in some cases, right? Shared everything with each other. But when you talk to them and ask them, you know, the answer you get, I'm paraphrasing. I'm not quoting anybody. But the answer you get is basically like, you know, kind of what do you think we've been talking about this whole time? Like, yes, we mark the occasion, we celebrate it with solemnity, we're reverent to the process, all understood. But at the same time,

we're happy for our brother because he's now, you know, at rest, right? He's now heard the Lord said, you know, come into my joy, you know, good and faithful servant, right? So like, in a way, it's this kind of like dual thing. So I think focusing on that is really, important because every one of us will take our last breath. And I know that that's something that in like our kind of current culture, like health and longevity and anti-aging and transhumanism and all this kind of crazy stuff is like literally directly antithetical to this idea that we will all take our last breath and we should have that in some way front and center. But it's something that's really deeply scriptural, deeply Christian, and something that I think, you know, is like the starting

point to any healthy understanding of death. So that'd be one thing. The second thing that I would, I guess, encourage or chat to people about is, and you've already touched on this, is the idea of using this period of time, particularly in November, which the church does, as a way to remember all the personages and characters that God allowed to enter into our lives to help us to do that journey to him with him, because none of that's coincidence, right? So, of course, remember our loved ones, our family, et cetera, maybe other people that weren't family, but that we know or we knew and have passed, all of those people played a role.

And then you start seeing this sort of, you know, kind of great continuity where, you know, God's making this amazing tapestry and it's made up of all of these interactions and relationships. And so we take that period of time to honor those and to thank God, right, to thank God for having allowed these people to have come into our lives for the time that they did, even if it hurts a little bit as we think about it, right? But just really being in a state of gratitude, I also think that's also a very healthy way to experience this time of year. Now, Tegan, obviously, this hits close to home for you. And I know you've done a lot of ministry, obviously, with people who have, you know, crossed over. But I'm curious, you know, you and I have had a lot of wonderful discussions about your being present as your father basically transitioned from this life to the next. And there was some really cool insights and just observations that came from that. So maybe if you don't mind, could you share a little bit about that journey and how it's informed your perspective on like a healthy respect for death? We talked about earlier, one of your previous guests, is it Father Rehill? Yeah. Was it Father Dan? Okay.

Who I haven't yet met, but I've definitely heard. He talked about someone who's lived a good life usually dies well. My dad definitely falls into that category. My dad had, you know, a beautiful death. And even sometimes when I say that in kind of mixed company, you get really puzzled looks. But I think Christians understand that sentiment perhaps a bit better. My dad was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer back. in 2014. This is more than 10 years ago now. And he died in 2015. And he lived the last nine months

of his life in my guest house in Los Angeles. In fact, I was with him when he was given his prognosis by the oncologist. I happened to be visiting Florida where he lived at the time and was in the room, the little like triage room, you know, where like the doctor says, go wait there for me so I can like, you know, come in for 40 seconds. So anyway, I was in that little room and he walked in and he told him he's like here's your prognosis he's like look my job is not to tell you when these things happen that's up to god i remember his words clearly and i think all doctors are believers when they have to issue this kind of news but he said you know if you take a thousand people who have what you have you know 90% will be gone between you know x and y which at the time was

something like two months to like five months you know so that was the prognosis that he gave him and i was there i was in the room and my and my and And the doctor said, you know, you can do one of two things. You can do chemotherapy or you can do nothing. If you do chemotherapy, you'll last six months. If you do nothing, you'll probably last one month or two months or whatever it was. And my dad in his very typical fashion said, I don't like either of those options. So he was like you. He's a guy. None of the above. None of the above. Yeah. He brought humor into everything. But he opted for this sort of alternative protocol. And he ended up living and being with us for nine months. He moved to Los Angeles with my mother and spent the last

days that he had with us. And yeah, I mean, we talked about a lot of things. I'll just share with you this small anecdote and then happy to riff on it if you want. A couple of weeks before he eventually died, he called my wife and I into his, you know, my guest house, there was like a bedroom. So it was like a separate part of the guest house. He called us into there and he said, I want to talk to you. And now bear in mind, my dad was like perfectly lucid, had been his entire life, no history of mental illness, no history of any issues, anxiety, depression, none of that. No drugs, like, you know.

And he took us into the room, and I remember distinctly that he looked at us and he said, I just want you to know, no matter what happens, just remember, it's still me. And it was out of nowhere, right? It was like, hi, dad, and then he made that statement. No context, nothing, which in and of itself made me think, oh, man, my dad's like losing it, right?

And it really, it was like a gut punch because I always love my dad's crispness and lucidity. And I was like, the statement he just made makes no sense, completely out of context. I don't even understand what we're talking about. And I was like bummed. I was like, oh, man, my dad's losing it. And then, you know, about a week later, what he had said began to make sense to me because we would be having a conversation about something. And all of a sudden my dad would like stop talking and kind of look up to the

of the room and trace an object in his own mind, something he saw as it kind of crossed the room. And then he would come back to me and continue the conversation. Just like out of nowhere. Like, oh, there's, you know, like you and I might do, if I don't know, somebody threw a paper airplane in front of our conversation, your eyes might track that thing, right? He did that. He would stop and listen to things and then say, do you hear that? And of course we didn't, right? all of these things that would begin to happen. And you talk to like the medical professionals and they will tell you, oh, well, those kind of things are, you know, as you get close to the end, hallucinating.

Good days and bad days. Exactly. Good days and bad days. And plus, you know, the body and brain chemistry and neurotransmitters and blah, blah, blah. But of course, we're Christians, right? So we have to understand this, not just the natural, but also the supernatural. And what I recognize, at least in my mind, upon reflection, is that he was beginning to see with the eyes of his soul. he was beginning to see what is truly around us right and he was explaining to us that how he would act as a result of now seeing those things shouldn't scare us right and it wasn't like he was asking us to engage with whatever he was seeing right sometimes he would say did you hear that but beyond that it was just something he was experiencing and you knew he was experiencing it was clearly amazing to look at like whatever

it was, you know, by his expression, by the way it would just arrest him in the middle of a sentence. And again, in the context of my dad, he would have never done this before, ever. And he was lucid up until the last, like, literally 10 days before he died in terms of you wouldn't even know he was sick kind of thing. And so anyway, I've reflected on that, you know, that experience a lot in the year since as this sort of reminder that, you know, as St. Paul says that, you know, we have, you know, principality. and powers and we fight, you know, not against flesh and bone, that there is this sort of supernatural realm that we're literally in right now. But our kind of tool set is not equipped for it

until we pass over, or in the case of my dad, begin to pass over. That's beautiful. You were with me. The listeners, I know, but Deacon Charlie came and actually did the right of blessing the right of pets for my dog. And we lost my dog. And it just, I mean, nothing. I go to. downstairs and there's still a silence there that is just heartbreaking and it's awful. I still think I hear her sometimes, you know, et cetera. Yeah, she's a sweetheart. Oh, she was. And I go, that's a dog. And I can't imagine like when it's a losing a loved one like that. But what encouragement do you give to people, especially as a Christian, is it just, is it to, hey, did you have to take your thoughts and like, you know, my dad is experiencing a type of happiness and

glory and healing now. And you know what? Just it's not goodbye. It's seeing a little bit. 100%. I mean, it's just confirmation, right? I think all of these things that God allows, you know, whether it's me as a son experiencing my dad see something in the corner of the room that I can't see or hear something that I can't hear. In a way, those are all very small mercies that God allows us, right? You can even say things like the subjects you talk about far more often than I do, deliverance, exorcism, all those kind of things. Even those things, right, are in a way small. mercies insofar as they alert you of the reality of that realm. Because you could go your whole life completely checked out and imagine what it must be like. I always joke like with my kids or something. We're in the car. And I said, look, at some point in history, imagine like the sky, like a seam of

the sky ripping open, right? That like reality falling to the ground like a t-shirt that you threw to the ground and then the real real being in front of you. Now, if you're not at all prepare for that. If you don't even fathom the concept of that, I can imagine what that might be like, right? That's a pretty big shock. And so I see the idea of God allowing through revelation, scripture, experiences, these kind of manifestations, these little bits, right, that he's kind of laying the breadcrumbs of this experience out in front of you. I view those things as a great mercy that have helped my faith, frankly, but I'm sure I'm not alone, you know? to kind of just just the knowledge that there is something that is coming and that we should yeah of course not treat it flippantly or whatever but also you know to not be afraid which is the consistent message of scripture to not be fearful right because jesus has triumphed over the world he's already victorious and we have a chance to live that inheritance that we have now from god the father so like it's this kind of balancing act right

But I think I view all those things as like great mercies and graces from God that he's allowed me to see. So what do you advise like your, you know, for Christians and your parish specifically like, all right, what are activities, things you can do? I'm curious, you know, obviously as a Protestant, we have vibe for apples, go pick apples in an orchard, harvest festivals. Don't watch hocus pocus. That apparently is a big no-no. I thought that's when Halloween started. It was when Bet Midler and Sarah Jessica Parker got together on their broomsticks. But this is before Roomba.

or um you know right right exactly by the way funny aside your editor can cut this out if you don't think it's useful but that movie supposedly like bomb so hard and i i had no idea but i saw on youtube the old ciscoll and ebert review of the movie when it first came out they hated it it was like this is the worst movie of all time and that thing just became a super classic that ushered in the whole season you're right that's how i grew up too i remember i saw the sneak peek of it i remember it was a big deal my parents took me to see it on a Friday night, and they're big Bet Midler fans. And again, I do love, I love, it's like Salem, you know, Oregon. And it's like, totally. It's cold. And yeah. Yeah, it's true. And there's a whole vibe. Like it's just that it's, and I love spooky stories. And but, you know,

again, you want to be, you know, guard about this. But what wisdom and advice do you have for people to say, hey, look, here's some healthy practices. Because one thing I think that is lost sometimes in the, you know, Protestant tradition is that all throughout the Old Testament, it's like, name, a field, putting these stones of remembrance, like these just constant physical reminders of what God has done. And, you know, talking about this time of year where we kind of reflect on those who've gone on before us. What do Catholics do this time of year specifically? I think you mentioned that sometimes people will have little displays that they make for their family members. But like, what are some things that you say as the deacon, hey, you know, consider this.

This is kind of a way to healthily reflect on and honor people's memories, but also, you know, you kind of speak to your soul and say, hey, you are going to die one day. Like, let's familiarize ourselves with this. I think there's a number of things. I mean, I think there's kind of like the general answer and then the Latino-specific kind of answer because there's a lot of customs that are very specific to that community. I think in a general sense, having your mind be the mind of the church, if you're Catholic liturgical thinking is like an important way to do that.

And the whole month of November is a month where we're focused on those who have gone before us. So how do you do that? Well, you do that in the case of people that you need. new by honoring their life, you know, talking about their memories, recounting some, you know, great lesson or spiritual truth that they revealed, you know, maybe putting a picture that typically is in your hallway and putting that maybe for the month in your living room so you can just kind of like recall them more. Of course, from a spiritual standpoint, this is where there's

some division that begins in the Christian family, from a Catholic standpoint, to pray for the repose of their souls, right, to continue to pray for them. Because, you know, in the Catholic tradition, as you well know, Ryan, obviously, but just for some who may not, even though there's only two destinations, heaven and the other place, there is a process of purification, oftentimes required on our way to heaven, which the church has theologically referred to as purgatory. It's a time of purgation and purification. And so we don't know with, you know, certainty. You can be morally certain about something, but not absolutely certain, that. your, I don't know, neighbor or uncle or whatever is absolutely in the beatific vision yet, right?

You could have moral certainty that he's going to heaven if that was a person of great virtue or they received the last rights or whatever. But like we don't know or unless a church, you know, magisterium says without a shadow of a doubt that this is the case for a particular person, which happens very rarely. So I would advise people in the Catholic Communion to continue to pray for folks. And by the way, this is something even Catholics have lost, right? I've been to plenty of Catholic funerals, masses, that kind of thing. I've done a number of gravesides myself, but I've just been present in those settings where, you know, oftentimes a deceased or talked about like they're there, you know, with Jesus already, like immediately. And from a Catholic theological standpoint,

even though that may be true, eventually, there may be a process of purification that they're going through during which they need your prayers. And so we try not to forget people that have died and to actively pray for them. So I would also advise that. In the Latin American experience, there's some additional things. Again, to your point, very physical. Like, you know, they actually Diallo's Mueros, one of the practices is to actually build like a little altar, a little, you know, niche, if you will, Saint Nitch, where you would put, you know, an image of your, of the departed person, you know, other embellishments to that. And this is where you start getting into some strange territory, even from a Catholic perspective.

You know, people might put, you know, some other thing that reminds them like, oh, he really love to play soccer. So I'm going to put a soccer ball up there or whatever it is. I think the sort of line of demarcation is where is your orientation, right? So even putting out a soccer ball or, you know, cookies because he like cookies or whatever it is, are you honoring God by virtue of remembering the specifics of this soul that he created? or are you now sort of, you know, communing with this person in a way that's different than the way you commune with God? So there's some area there where it's important to ask yourself those questions.

But you'll see all kinds of stuff like that. Mostly it's pictures, decorations, and like a space in the home, like is the case in my house. My wife did this, even though she's not Hispanic, but she decorates like a little altar for us where we have all the pictures of those who have departed. and in our family anyway, or people that we knew. And then she kind of decorates that space with things that kind of orient you to the season, right? I think that's like 90% of time what you'll see, but you'll see some edge cases that include some other things,

which in my view require some further formation. And so for our Protestant listeners say, you know, I'm not sold on the purgatory thing. I'm sold on multiple levels of heaven, which I think you could skip that from scripture. But, hey, it's like at the end of the day, Worst case, you can reflect on someone who meant a lot to you lessons that they taught you. And I also just think I've been reflecting on this too that, you know, it seems like in generations

past you did life more regularly with your ancestors and you would be exposed to death more often. There's a great book, The Vanishing American Adult by Senator Ben Sass. And one of the reasons he cited that he thinks we have more anxiety and kind of tension around health issues is because by virtue of eradicating so many illnesses and kind of sparing people from exposure to death, amazing, that we kind of have accidentally inoculated ourselves with this like, we're going to live forever vibe, even though we know that's not true. And, you know, in the old days, you would have lived maybe in grandma and grandma's house, right? And they'd be buried out in the yard, right? Or you'd be in a class of 20 people and, you know, four of the kids would have died

from a childhood illness. And so you just, you were, or wars, right? World War II, how many people lost people. And so nowadays we have such a, you know, a gift of health for, you know, infants and young people that you do wonder, like, do we not appreciate death enough? Have we in an effort, as the benefit of being blessed with so much modern medicine, have we kind of shielded ourselves from our reality that, you know, is approaching. Yeah, 100%. Well, and you also touched on in earlier, the sort of lack of materiality, if you will, to kind of mark our, you know, these sort of spiritual milestones, right? We've, we've become very technologically advanced culture and one that's also very content focused, very content rich. I mean, look at what we're doing right now, right?

This wouldn't have even been a concept, you know, just a short number of years ago. So we don't have the same kind of material, like touching tactile reminders of these things around us. We can be very isolated from the realities of, you know, of death, of, you know, passing on and all of that, which I think is part and parcel to, you know, kind of the culture that we live in. And I hear you on the purgatory, you know, thing from a Catholic, you know, perspective, I mean, even though there are Catholic apologetics wouldn't use kind of biblical proof texts necessarily, but, you know, we rely a lot on the idea from Revelation, Chapter 21, that nothing in pure will enter heaven.

So separate from salvation, purity. So I know that if I were to die in a state of grace and friendship with God, that nevertheless, I still have things that I cling to and hang on to that are imperfect and impure. And so what happens to those impurities after I die? So that plus 1 Corinthians chapter 3, verse 15, I'm sure you've heard that one about the sort of purifying fire that happens where the person nevertheless will not be lost, but they'll be kind of purified as somebody going through like a burning building or something. So the idea is just sort of a final, you know, act of purification for somebody who is already destined to be in the glory of heaven, but nevertheless has some attachments that they need to get sort of rid of rid of. And this is one of those where, like, focus group of one helps me to understand and believe in the doctor in purgatory because I know for me, like, even if, like, I just went to confession and I've read scripture all night and, like, I haven't done any mortal sin. Like, nevertheless, if I died at that moment, I would still be clinging to some things. that sort of I need to let go of in order to, you know, enter the purity of heaven and be side by side.

Is that why you like the cold plunge so much is that this is your practice for purgatory? You want to laugh. I mean, that's actually mortification is a big part of this concept, right? It's like I'm trying to die to those things, whatever those things are. And things like cold exposure or, you know, vigorous fitness or, you know, frankly, just trying to be quiet for like 20 minutes. those are all ways of trying to burn those things off, you know, because they're stuck on you. At least you're stuck on me. It is interesting, too, that we have a physiological adaptation that requires difficult stressors that cause our body to adapt favorably. I've always just like, man, God, why did you design it to where you got to lower a bar

and squat and cause extreme pain in your glutes for the following week? And you derive some minuscule benefit from that, right? Or every food that tastes absolutely incredible is just terrible for it. you when mixed in the wrong and cold plunge. Like a painful, just dowsing of frozen water is like for 30 to six seconds, which is the most unplanned for me. It's one of the most like if there is purgatory, it's not going to be a burning building for me. It's going to be a cold plunge. I know it. And there, but it's like, I'll bet you feel amazing. I hate cold plunge. And when you get out, you feel amazing. Like there's just, it is a, it is a recalibration like none other. And so

stressors are good. So maybe it's also helpful to think of it too as, one final act of God's love. Like, I so want you to be with me that I'm just doing one more thing. Like, even beyond death, I'm just, you know, let's get you know what, let's get you one more at that. Yeah. Well, Pope Benedict in the 16th talked about the concept of purgatory as an, like a fiery embrace. Like, it's like hugging Jesus, right? In his, you know, resurrected body that is unlike anything that we've ever seen, right? The same body that on the road to Amas, the disciples couldn't recognize, right? That transformed reality, but like imagine embracing Jesus and him just pouring his love into you in a physical

embrace. I mean, that's going to leave a mark. That's going to just burn off whatever's there, right? So however you think about it, the idea is less of a place that is purgatory and more of a process, right, of a way to just kind of get rid of those imperfections. You've already been forgiven. You're already going home. You're already in heaven. But we've got to clean you up from those attachments before you get there, right? So anyway, but... Amen. All-So Deacon, given that it is All Saints Day looms near,

there are so many saints. It's impossible to think of all of them. There's some famous ones. And you know, I love ecumenical dialogue, but who's maybe a saint or two that, you know, didn't top the charts on Billboard's top 40 saints? It doesn't get a lot of airplay. Because, you know, we do know a lot of the saints

that get kind of regular rotation. But who's one or two maybe that you're like, you know what? hey, I don't care what denomination you are. This is cool. You should check this out. What's a deep cut? I was going to say, you're talking about a deep cut or an obscure B-side.

Yeah, B-side Saints. Yep, B-side Saints. That's a cool name for a podcast too right there. Well, I think on the day, shocker, we're not recording this when people are listening to it. But today's Saints, can I share today's Saints? I think they're B-sides. So there's two of them, St. Helerion and St. Gasp.

These are both great. These are Ryan Bithet names. Okay. So St. Hilarion, number one. And then number two is St. Gaspar de Bufalo. Is he the patron saint of buffalo cheese, Buffalo Mozilla? I mean, he has to be with that name. I thought you were going to say something like, you know,

like Cowboys and Indians or something. So, no, it's not that Buffalo. It is the one you're saying. It's the Italian buffalo, right? Which I guess is a region, but where the famous kind of mozzarella and all that comes from. So St. Hilarian, was a third and fourth century saint. He kind of lived on the cusp. And he actually lived in Gaza,

which is in the news a lot right now. He was a desert monk. And he was actually taught by St. Anthony of the desert, like one of the very, very first monks. And it turns out, by the way, interesting, one of his biggest ministries was, guess what? Exorcism. Well, St. Anthony had all those crazy battles in the desert with his house shaking and demons turning into animals. Like, yeah, listeners, if you haven't read letters Athanasius and like the life of St. Anthony, it's, the guy's wild. It's wild stuff. So it turns out Hilarian actually was living with Anthony because he was his teacher. And he eventually left because of what you just said. All these people would come to him. They're all possessed. There's like a bunch of battles. And this guy, Hilarian's like,

wait a minute, aren't we supposed to be monks in the middle of the desert? So eventually he leaves and he goes to Gaza and he has this little hut for like 25 years and he does nothing but just, you know, pray to God and be an ascetic. But eventually, of course, like it happens, people find you, and so they seek you out. And he ends up being very active in deliverance and exorcism and all of that stuff. So super interesting, very early Saint-Hilarion. And then the second one, which I'd never heard of, a St. Gaspar de Bufalo. So actually interesting because he was born on Epiphany. And so, you know, three kings.

And his name, his parents, like, can you tell their Catholic? Tell me you're Catholic without telling me you're Catholic. His actual name is St. Gaspar, Melchior, Balthazar de Bufalo. He's literally named after all three kings. Okay. And he was the founder of an order called the Missionaries of the Precious Blood. And one interesting little anecdote about him, and I just learned this recently, obviously, I wasn't familiar with him. But he, and he lived in the early 19th century, so early 1800s in Italy, obviously, as the name would suggest.

and he was very involved in like all the drama going on with like the papal states and apparently there was like basically gangs that like roamed and ran a good chunk of Italy and he would basically go out there and preach to that he was sent by the pope to go preach to these gangs basically and the irony the kind of funny thing is that a lot of these gangs would like lay down their weapons and arms after they heard him preach because he was such an effective preacher. But eventually he was persecuted, not by the gangs, but by the cops, because the cops were like, wait a minute, we're getting bride money. We've got a lot of like, you know, side hustles going on here, and you're wrecking all of it with this stuff that you're doing. So he was persecuted by the cops

and like kind of shoot away from what his ministry by the law enforcement as opposed to the gang people who he was sent to, you know, kind of deal with. So super interesting. Those are definitely B-side Saints, both of them. probably number two, more of a B-side. But there you go. St. Hilarian and St. Gaspar, pray for us. Wow. Okay. Amazing. All right. So, Deacon, if anyone finds themselves in Venice, California, near St. Marks, and they're suffering from extreme insomnia.

Can they come find you for prayer? Please do. St. Mark is my parish in Venice, California, a place full of arts and media in a very colorful place. So you'll find all of that. And, you know, the Bible and the Eucharist to boot. And then if not, just hit me up on deacon Charlie.com. That's where you can find out all about what I'm up to.

Amazing. Well, it's a very great episode when we can work with the freaking deacon of the weekend. So thank you so much. Thank you for your friendship. Thank you for listening and supporting our show. And just say no to Dwendes, right? Thank you, brother, for having me. I really appreciate it.

It's a real privilege and an honor to be here with you today. And to all of your audience, may Almighty God, bless them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.