The Exorcist Files - In Their Own Words | A Priest, a Doctor, and a Neuroscientist

Episode Date: February 27, 2023

A priest, a psychiatrist and a neuroscientist share first hand accounts of their own encounters with darkness. Want more Exorcist Files Content? Subscribe to The Vault for exclusive deep dives into past cases and Ask Me Anything Episodes with Father Martins. SPONSORS OF TODAYS EPISODEFireBreaker Series-    A dramatic and epic adventure recounting the legend of George and the Dragon. A fun narrative podcast that is great for the family, starring Wizards of Waverly Place Star David Henrie.  Click here to listenExodus90- Ultimate men's spiritual formation curriculum. Co-hosted by Father Martins. Join the St. Michael's Lent with a group of likeminded warriors.  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Do you crave more Exorcist Files content? Do you want to go deeper into theology and spiritual warfare? Well, you're going to want to subscribe to The Vault, our new premium subscriber program. The Vault is our way of ensuring we bring you content all year long. Subscribers will get access to exclusive once a month, Ask Me Anything episodes with Father Martins, where you can submit questions and vote on the ones you want him to answer most. You'll also get access to a very special case behind the case series,

where we relisten to past episodes and cases, and father reflects back on insights and anecdotes he just didn't have time to get into in the podcast. To subscribe, head on over to exorcistfiles.tv and sign up, or just click the link in the show notes. Again, that's exorcistfiles.tv to get access to the vault. Welcome back to the Exorcist Files. Today, we're shaking things up a bit

and taking a brief pause from our regularly scheduled programming. to bring you a very special bonus episode. While there is no shortage of amazing stories to come, we have also teased throughout earlier episodes the mysterious existence of some special guests, and we felt it was time to introduce you to some of our expert contributors. On this episode, you will hear

from another veteran exorcist, a world-renowned psychiatrist who specializes in the field and a neuroscientist if that wasn't enough. Father, A lot of people wrote in and said how much they were both terrified and enjoyed the Father George story last week, which was truly a spine-tangling case. But there is a little bit of a surprise we have this week, right? Yeah, there is a surprise. So we actually have Father George present.

Father George is a very good friend of mine, and his real name is Monsignor Patrick Brankin. He is one of the first exorcists I met after I myself had been appointed. he is one of my dearest and closest friends, and he is the exorcist behind the encounter of the demon whose nemesis was St. Thomas Beckett. So he's coming to give his own version and to fill in the gaps of that story involving the demon that inhabited the men that killed Beckett. Moderating a discussion between two exorcists certainly qualified as one of the more surreal experiences of my life. And just in case you needed a refresher, Father George was the exorcist who faced down the demoniac named Murder in the third act of episode five. So,

without further ado, please welcome the real life, Father George, Monsignor Patrick Brankin. My name is Monsignor Patrick Brankin. I was ordained in May of 1979. I've worked here in the Diocesa Tulsa since 1994, and I was appointed as the first diocesan exorcist year on March 6th, 2010. So I'm going on almost 13 full years in this job. So, Mancena, in that account that is narrated in the podcast, is that an accurate depiction of what occurred? Oh my gosh, yes. Yes, it was extraordinarily accurate. But when I listened to it, it actually brought it back so realistically that I found myself getting frightened.

And oddly, because I don't get frightened in the exorcism, but hearing this, recalling it, was terrifying. The only criticism I might offer is that when all hell broke loose, when I brought that relic against the demoniac and put it on the forehead, the program depicted it as fear and terror. It was actually more anger and hatred mixed with fear. Those are three very dark emotions. Fear was there, anger was there, but hatred was the worst. What you're not able to experience as you listen to the podcast is the tension in the room, the heaviness in the room, the way that the anger and the hatred of the demon are are almost things that you can taste.

And there is a darkness, a spiritual darkness that descends in the course of the session. The devil has multiple ways of attacking. He will attack every person in that room simultaneously. While the demon is flailing and screaming and there's five people holding the person down, at the same time, each of those five people is being a source. assaulted interiorly, spiritually. Perhaps one is being tempted to recollect an act of impurity. Another may be tempted to question the sanity of what he sees in front of him.

I think what I was experiencing at that point was this temptation that we were not going to win, that Christ had not won this victory that we were now sharing in. Every person in that room is dealing with a simultaneous spiritual. attack of such ferocity and such power that you're thrown backwards by it. Our listeners will remember Father Martin's three questions he asks during exorcism. The case of the demon named murder involved asking who his nemesis in heaven was. While Monsignor stated that all demons have a nemesis and eventually reveal it, for murder, he was stunned at its confession.

We had been dealing with this case now at that point of a moment of, about two years. This session had already gone on about an hour. We were battling with this demon who refused, just absolutely refused to give us his name. When we finally broke it and he gave us his title and I asked him who his nemesis was, he refused to answer. And I think they refused to answer because they know we'll immediately ask their help. What he didn't know is that we would get a surprise from Father Carlos and it would be that help, not just. the spiritual help from heaven, but something I could hold in my hand. And when he said, Thomas, I remember saying immediately, answer me now, I command you in the name of Jesus. Is it Thomas the

Apostle or Thomas Aquinas? I don't know why those two Thomases came out first. And the possessed person shot his head back and looked at me with such absolute hatred in his eyes and disdain. And he he said, no, you effing priest. It was Beckett. And we immediately asked St. Thomas to assist us. One of the more chilling moments from the demon in episode five is when it identified itself as murder. It claimed to have been personally responsible for the murder of Thomas Beckett of Canterbury. What he said actually was that he possessed the man who struck the blow with the sword that cleaved at the head of Beckett. He said, I was in him. I had him. I possessed him. He was mine. I drew the session to a close. The possessed person was exhausted. The team was exhausted, and so was I.

That evening I called Father Carlos. The question I really wanted to pose him was, is it possible that the demon was telling me the truth? And Father Carlos said, well, you know, I have a relic of Beckett. The elm that he was wearing at his murder is still stained with his blood. I didn't want to ask the borrowing of it. You know, if I was ever tempted to steal, I think I would have been to steal that relic. He offered to send it to me overnight. And so we had it three or four days later when we had this next session with this person,

immediately brought this demon back. We started to hammer it. to demand its rights and to know how it had entered into this person. And the demon's answer is always, you're not strong enough to break me, priest. You don't have the power. My answer is always, yes, you're right. Christ has the power.

But I said to him at one point, and I have something now, and I put the relic against the forehead of the possessed person. I don't think I will ever see the kind of panamonium, the kind of absolute chaos, the fear, the anger, the hatred, the thrashing, the struggle to get away. There were five people holding this person, and we were being thrown about like ragdows. But it wasn't that the demon was trying to hurt us. He was trying to get away. He was trying to flee from having the touch of the relic on his forehead. Father shared with me that Monsignor Brankin is a big history buff, which made this case

especially relevant for him. Here's a demon who was active in the 12th century, who was compelling a knight to go crazy and to go in to violate the sanctuary of a cathedral, to pursue Beckett across the sanctuary floor, and in front of the whole chapter of monks, to clean his head in two. And that demon is now in the person sitting next to me

in the 21st century. and he's not a bit older. They don't age. They don't get weak or tired as we do. And it's just, I say to myself, the same demons that were active then are active today. The same demons that were part of the life of the Babylonians or the Assyrians or the Jews or the Romans or the Greeks and the Egyptians, those demons that were worshipped as gods are still here and they are still creating chaos and havoc.

Monsignor shared with us that demons constantly use tricks and manifestations to magnify their power and intimidate. And while the more extreme manifestations are rare, they do occur and can be simply unbelievable. I was dealing with a case of a young man. He was from out of town and he had come in for consultation, brought in on the recommendation of his parents. turned out that they were all into witchcraft. This was, I think, an attempt either to trip us up or to be able to discern how we worked. But as we talked with this person,

I saw him turn into a wolf. If I did not myself see it, I would not believe it. There was one of my deacons and two other priests. We all saw it. What I saw was a change in the structure of his skull. It lengthened. I saw his hands lengthened. They changed.

I watched them. The fingers, each one grew another inch and a half. And then they grew talons. And I'm watching this. And I look at the man's face. And the face has that lupine effect of a wolf, except the eyes were human. I don't know how I can describe it, but his wolfish face got a smirk.

And as soon as we saw the smirk, it stopped. He came back to who he was, and he had this glint in his eye like, you see how powerful I am? You see what I can do? That was certainly a breaking of the laws of nature. And there were four witnesses in the room with me. when the man left, we all looked at each other and said, did we all see that? And we did. So if you ever play a game of Never Have I Ever with Monsignor Brankin, you know what story to use.

Now, this story reminded me of father's earlier explanation of how demons are limited by the physiology of the human body. So how could one bend their bones to slither like a snake? How could a human skull shift into a wolf's skull and not kill? the person. Father Martins did actually have a response. So that's a really good question. Demons can bend light. They can cause an illusion, a mirage, if you will, whereby we perceive something with our senses that are actually not there. Whether using the hidden laws of nature and his own preter nature, whether that's happening at the level of our eyes exclusively, or whether it's happening in the individual, and we're perceiving that, I don't know, I can't tell you.

And I think they can probably do either one. So it is not the case that the body actually grew talents, that the head actually elongated. So when I say in the movie The Exorcist, the phenomena was accurate, what is true is that the 360 degree head spinning is impossible to do. Nevertheless, could the demon had given the mirage, the illusion of the head spinning in that matter. Absolutely he can. He can make things appear to be there that are not there, just like when somebody enters into a psychic shop and their dead

grandmother appears in front of them. She is not literally there. So it is from start to finish an illusion, the plaything that the demon is doing. Listening to these old friends talk, it struck me how strange the life of an exorcist must be and how it must have serious ramifications for a social life. Turns out it's true. When a priest is named an exorcist, half of his friends think he's crazy, and the other half are terrified to stay with him. An exorcist ends up being isolated. The isolation is increased because so much of what he sees, he can't express. He's not at liberty to talk about. He doesn't want to break any confidences. He doesn't want anything to become public. And so there are terrifying things, dark, dark things that

begin to weigh on a priest's mind. And luckily, I live with the bishop of this diocese, and now the retired bishop, but I would always be able to speak with him, and then I could speak to Father Carlos. Those are the two priests that I could open up to to get encouragement and support. That's always an extraordinary gift. If you've listened to our first few cases, it's clear by now that exorcism can be extremely demanding on the body and mind. So I had to ask these two seasoned pros if they have a way to unwind after a difficult day of deliverance. A tall margarita and Mexican food. That's something with Monsignor Brankin. We've done so many exorcisms together. That tradition we have together

is something I value so much. So at the end of the sessions, the team, he and I will head to a Mexican restaurant and just debrief the day. Why a Mexican restaurant? Well, they're loud. Yeah. People won't hear our conversation. That's right. So people won't hear us. And we're going to try to go over all of the different things and see, have we missed any clues? Is there something that occurred that will help us next time if we're aware? We'll talk about it. We'll say, what did you see? What did you hear? And very often, because as exorcist, I am saying the prayers of the exorcism. I might hear him muttering something,

but one of the assistants will say, no, what he said was this. And that breaks open an issue so that I'm able to say, ah, that's where we need to pound him. That's where we need to pursue this. It's very helpful to us. That's right. Not just to unwind,

but to make sure that we understand exactly what the story is. Of course, we don't want anybody eavesdropping in that. So Mexican restaurants loud, and the team is, we usually number about 10 individuals or so, you can pile the tables together and it's possible for us all to sit in one group. Can you imagine being the server at that table? Talk about Cameronis a la Diablo. In light of the mind-bending stories that he shared, as we finished the interview, I did ask Monsignor Brankin to give a message to the skeptics, to people who, justifiably, I might add, think all of the this sounds absolutely ridiculous.

I would just simply say I understand. I know how it sounds. I know how impossible and unrealistic it is. But in the years that I have been serving Christ as an exorcist, what I have recognized is that the world around us is charged with a spirituality that we don't even have a guesstimate about. There is a world of the spiritual blocked in a battle. the good versus the evil.

We play a part in that battle as well, and the battle is won individually by not sitting, by choosing virtue. I have seen things that I cannot account for. I do not know how I can explain them. I do not know how any of it makes sense, and yet I know it's true. We are extremely grateful to Monsignor

for sharing his stories with us, and don't worry, This isn't the last time you'll hear from him. Also, if you haven't listened to Episode 5 yet, we do recommend you go back and see what the fuss was about. We're taking a short commercial break, but when we return, we will hear from one of the most respected and sought-after psychiatric experts in the world

when it comes to the thin line, differentiating mental illness and the demonic. Amen. Father Martin's here. I want to do a quick plug for one of the most powerful tools I've seen for breaking free and growing closer to Christ. Christ. Exodus 90. The Exodus 90 challenge begins this year on January 20th, but this isn't just a 90-day program. Exodus 90 is a spirituality for modern men that is built on three ancient pillars, prayer, self-sacrifice, and fraternity.

We all long for something more. We long to be the men God created us to be, sons of a loving father. It's time to turn away from our idols. It's time to break free from the pharaohs that hold us in bondage. If you're ready to make a fresh start and embark on a journey to uncommon freedom in Jesus Christ, then download the Exodus 90 app today. This is your chance to break free, refocus, and rediscover who God is calling you to be in the new year. It starts January 20th. So go to Exodus 90.com.

slash X-Files to learn more about Exodus 90. That's Exodus 90.com slash X-Files to join tens of thousands of men from all over the world for Exodus 90. Again, it begins Monday, January 20th. God bless you. Welcome back to the Exorcist Files. As you've probably surmised, we're doing things a little different today. Let's move on to our next contributor. Now, some listeners have written to us asking,

what about getting some insights from non-clergy? What about the medical professionals? Where are the scientists? If you were to go online and conduct research on psychology and exorcism, inevitably, your road will lead you to a man by the name of Dr. Richard Gallagher. I actually discovered his work years ago in an article in Esquire, which was profiling his book, Demonic Fos. Dr. Gallagher is immensely respected in the field of psychiatry,

and he was gracious enough to provide his expertise to the podcast. I'm Dr. Richard Gallagher. I'm a board-certified psychiatrist, and I'm a professor of psychiatry at a couple of places, mainly New York Medical College, and we also teach at Columbia and a local seminary. And I'm by this point, the longest-standing American member of the International Association of Exorcist.

Again, I'm not an exorcist, but I'm a scientific advisor. To be clear, Dr. Gowler, Gallagher is a man of faith. So one could say he brings a bias to this. But I asked him to share his academic journey, since his credentials are substantial. I'll make it short. I did study classics in history at Princeton. I loved that, but I decided eventually to go to medical school and I did my psychiatric training at Yale. After that, I worked for Cornell Medical College. I became for a while the county crisis director in Westchester County, which is just north of New York City. So I'm primarily a clinician, but I also agreed upon request from a local priest who turned out to be a very experienced

exorcist to get involved in this strange field. My first question to Dr. Gallagher was the same one I posed to Father Martins when we first met. So you honestly believe the demons are real. I believe that I've seen unequivocal evidence of demons. As you know, I wrote a book, demonic foes, giving the evidence for evil spirits. So, you know, I'm obviously convinced the, you want to call it paranormal or preternatural happenings that I've witnessed have been so dramatic. There's no doubt in my mind. Now, there are also reasons that I specifically don't think they're just weird phenomena, but they are specifically demonic entities. The short way, of explaining that is that when challenged under the prayers of the church, for instance,

after attempting to hide themselves and disguise themselves, or say that there's some deceased soul, or I've even had people say, I have a spirit in me called Zeus or something, but eventually they're forced to reveal themselves reluctantly. And that's a good sign because it usually means that the exorcist is making progress. I've seen on numerous occasions, they are forced to admit that they are a demon or, as we believe in Christianity, a fallen spirit. So again, I'm a firm believer in this stuff. This also reminds me of a particular case in his book, Demonic Fos, or Dr. Gallagher describes a young woman, Catherine, who was so demonically harassed, her vision and hearing ceased to

function at the mere mention or display of anything pertaining to God. I pressed Dr. Gallagher on whether it's easy to differentiate those who need psychiatric treatment, from those who need spiritual treatment? How many mentally ill patients have you treated who all of a sudden either levitate or can reveal all kinds of secrets about your life and other people's lives, or can all of a sudden speak perfect Latin?

There's a clear differentiation possible, and there has to be those rigorous criteria. I'm not intuiting spirits. I'm making a hard diagnosis, just as I would as a medical doctor. As a professor of psychiatry who has literally evaluated maybe 25,000 cases, I can recognize pretty well what is mental illness and what is not. Mental illnesses may prompt people to believe that they are attacked by an evil spirit, such as a schizophrenic claiming to hear voices of evil spirits. But once you rule that out, which is part of what I'm often asked to do, you're left with things like evil spirit appearing and spiritual. speaking foreign languages, or taking over the body of the person and exhibiting enormous strength,

or revealing hidden knowledge, exhibiting sometimes even to dramatic proportions, phenomena that's impossible for any mental illness to demonstrate like a levitation or something. This cooperates what Father shared in previous episodes about the three classic signs of possession that must be present for it to be considered genuine demonization. Normally, it's not a mental illness that leads to something demonic. Many of the most serious cases that I have dealt with, like really flamboyant possessions, a person had no mental illness at all. We will dive deeper into the interplay between alleged demonization and mental health issues

in later episodes. Now, as we have stated in the show, genuine cases of full-blown possession are rare. I wanted to see if Dr. Gallagher agreed with that. I think genuine possessions are rare. The only reason I've seen so many of them is that I've been in an unusual position of having people from all over the world contact me. My chairman of psychiatry wrote in the preface to my book that I've probably seen more than any other doctor in the world.

The reason Dr. Gallagher is routinely contacted by people is that he serves in a capacity to help priests, like Father Martins, determine if someone is in need of genuine, spiritual care or if they need medical treatment, or both? Now, you know, I should say the question of what's required by good exorcists in terms of psychiatric or other medical consultation, it really depends on the culture and the exorcist. There are plenty of exorcists around the world who either don't have much contact with a believing doctor and or who are not required or the case may be so obvious that they don't feel

need to. In the Western world, where doctors are more plentiful, a lot of the bishops who ultimately make the decision do require a medical evaluation. I think that's sensible. It's just that it's not a universal requirement. But even around the world, generally, at least in the Catholic Church and probably in the Orthodox Church, these are very trained specialist exorcist who are also making a rigorous discernment on their own. They're not normally fundamentalist in seeing the devil everywhere. I found Dr. Gallagher to be highly credible, but I wondered, where does his view of this subject fall within the world of psychiatry at large?

I'm sure that a fair amount of people in the mental health field don't agree with what I'm saying. I've had respectful disagreements with people, but we also live in a country that's fairly tolerant of different spiritual beliefs. I mean, even psychiatry, which had a reputation, especially in the days of Freud as being sort of anti-religious. Even psychiatry has accepted that healthy spirituality can be very helpful to a person. Most people believe in evil spirits and activity in America, the world, the same. And certainly throughout history, most people have believed in evil spirits. So when people say to me sometimes, how does it feel to be out of the mainstream?

I say, what mainstream are you talking about? I do understand that psychiatrists, we all see so many people who may have dissociative identity disorder or overactive imagination or even get drawn to destructive behavior, let alone people who feel that they're hearing the voice of spirits when, in fact, they're just hallucinating. I understand that psychiatrist would be even more skeptical than your average person. Now, since Dr. Gallagher described himself as a scientific advisor, I did ask him about the apparent lack of scientific evidence for these spirits, lack of tapes, recordings, etc. Well, there's different kinds of evidence. For instance, there are audio tapes of people speaking foreign languages.

And there are some other tapes that I've seen where weird phenomena goes on, like things flying across the room. But what happens in those cases is people say, well, these were just doctored or how do we know? It is true that in some of the most dramatic cases, and it sounds like a self-justification, answer. But the fact of the matter is that sometimes the tapes do turn out to be blank when people show them. Within the Catholic Church, which I'm most familiar with exorcisms there, taping is not allowed in any case. As Father has mentioned, the things that are said and done in an exorcism can be embarrassing and traumatic. And the Catholic Church states that the lack of taping is to protect the privacy of the victim, even if it might seem to you a convenient excuse.

But think about it. If you were a victim of demonic possession, would you, want a tape of you? Can you imagine how you'd feel if that tape fell into someone else's hands? What if the press somehow got a hold of it? However, to be fair, there are some tapes in existence, but they are rare and difficult to access. One notable example is the taped evidence of an exorcism session with Annalise Michel, which the film The Exorcism of Emily Rose was based off of. But that was only made public record since it was used in a famous court case, which we will cover more in a later episode. Sometimes people say to me, well, again, And why not just record all these things and then show the evidence?

But what they don't realize is they're dealing with entities who have minds of their own. They're not going to make it obvious to people. Just as people have written about throughout history, I mean, I believe in miracles, but I also believe that there have been phony miracles and charlatans. I believe in demonic phenomena, but there were also been people who have been confused or mistaken in their description of that. I think it's hard to do a protocol of that type of stuff. Once you subject prayer to like experiment, I think you're asking for trouble because I don't think God,

or for that matter, demons necessarily participate in experiments. So you always have to use a certain amount of discrimination. And, you know, it's something that people have to go out and search for rather than just expect that it can be subject to some kind of human experiment. protocol. We will be hearing more from Dr. Gallagher in future episodes and some of the incredible things he has witnessed. Let's take one more short commercial break.

When we return, we'll hear from a neuroscientist who is pioneering models in AI and higher cognitive brain function and his remarkable story with the supernatural. Welcome back to The Exorcist Files, where we have been speaking with veteran exorcist Monsignor Patrick Brankin and Dr. Richard Gallagher. Our next contributor, Dr. Josh Brown, is someone I came across while conducting research on the topic of miracles and metaphysical healings. He is an academic firmly entrenched in the sciences, but Dr. Brown had an experience that makes the topic of the demonic hit far closer to home than he would like. Allow me the privilege of introducing you to our now resident exorcist

files, neuroscientist. My name is Joshua Brown. I got my PhD from Boston University in cognitive and neural systems. I'm a professor of psychological and brain sciences, and I have expertise in computational theoretical neuroscience, functional brain imaging, studies of addiction, and electrical neurostimulation. If you're wondering just what exactly that translates to, don't worry, so was I. I've really gotten interested in questions of higher cognitive function. So that is how do people organize their behavior towards specific goals? As in you have very complex, high-level goals and you can organize your behavior. and you can focus and pursue goals that might take years to accomplish.

Or it might be something as simple as making a cup of coffee. And so I've been interested in how people organize their behavior around goals and what happens when you make a mistake and how do you compensate for that mistake? How do you detect it? How do you correct it? How do you avoid mistakes? So these are some of the major themes of my research. That sure seems more interesting than a desk job.

Sorry to all the desk jockey's listening. I'm one of you. But Dr. Brown, along with his wife, Dr. Candy Brown, also runs the Global Medical Research Institute, a nonprofit with a very interesting mandate. I run a nonprofit research institute now that researches cases where people claim they had a miraculous healing. The Institute essentially takes these cases of alleged healings and brings in medical experts within the field of the healing being researched to bring a peer-reviewed process to validate the evidence for miracles happening today. So what does Josh consider a miracle? I've seen things that medically are miracles of healing because no one ever gets better from these things, ever,

and they get prayed for, and now suddenly it's better. We have a case where someone was blind from juvenile macular degeneration, like the back of the eye had degenerated, and medically that doesn't grow back like ever. And it just grew back, and we have pictures of the back, of the eyes showing that it had been restored. That's what I think of as a miracle. If all this weren't interesting enough, Josh also has his own experience with the demonic. Candidly, I was surprised he was willing to tell this story, and I was honored he agreed to share

it with our listeners. Without further ado, here is how a brain expert gets into demonic deliverance. I was 30. I had a pretty good job as a postdoctoral fellow doing combined functional brain imaging and computational neuroscience. My wife was nine months pregnant with our first child. One night I went to bed, and when I woke up the next morning, I wasn't in my bed. I was in an ambulance with an oxygen mask and tubes, and the paramedics said you've had a seizure, and I'd never had a seizure in my life. So they hauled me to the ER.

They did some brain scans, which is kind of ironic because here I'm a neuroscientist, and now I'm the one getting all the tests done on my head. And they said, well, you're not going to die right away, but you should follow up with a neurologist and have some more scans. So I did. My wife was in the hospital recovering from childbirth, and I was at the same time in the hospital getting more test done on my head. And when my daughter was two and a half weeks old, the results came back and they said, you have a brain tumor. I read the results. Basically, nobody lives more than a few years with what I had.

There's really nothing you can do about it, like chemo and radiation and surgery. None of it statistically prolongs lifespan. In a moment, it all hit me. I went from having a promising career to most likely being dead within a few years. Before all this happened, before I had the seizure, my wife had a dream. She saw this evil-looking face and it said, my name is and I'm going to kill you. Josh and Candy requested that we not use the seizure. the actual name, to avoid giving it any more attention than is necessary.

She also had a dream where she felt like God spoke to her and said, you can't control what's about to happen, but you can choose whether you meet it with faith or with fear, and your life depends on it. After we got the diagnosis, my wife came in one morning. She said, you know, I didn't tell you this, but before all this started, I had these dreams. And this voice said, what was its name? does this name mean anything to you? And I said, well, no, but as soon as she said the name, I suddenly felt like I had drunk seven cups of coffee. So we started praying. She said,

if there is a spirit named, just leave us alone in Jesus' name. As soon as she did that, my whole body started shaking violently. And it wasn't a seizure. I was fully aware. I had all my rational faculties. And I started screaming. Suddenly, I launched myself out of bed and started rolling around on the floor and shaking, and Candy said, you leave him alone. My head suddenly just reflexively whipped around at her and screamed, no. At this point, Candy was like, there's something evil in here. She's talking to me, tell it you belong to Jesus. So I said, well, I belong to Jesus.

I couldn't say the name Jesus, like my throat locked up and I couldn't get the word out. If you had asked me, I would have said, this isn't possible. I don't know how to explain this other than there is something demonic, basically. Candy called the pastors of our church. Can you come over? I think my husband has a demon. There was about five pastors that all came over within an hour. God bless them.

They genuinely wanted to help us, but they had no framework for this. They knew nothing about what to do if someone seems to have a demon. This may sound familiar to our listeners of episode one, when Pastor Jim referred Cheryl's husband Mark to a Catholic priest who had more experience in dealing with the demonic. At that point, we had a friend in this church that we went to, his Presbyterian church, who was like a closet charismatic type, and he was like, you should go over this prayer meeting over here. They know how to deal with this. I know I need help. I'm desperate.

I go across town, I walk in and these people at this prayer group say, oh, yeah, yeah, we heard you had a demon. We can help with that. So they pray for me for about three hours. At first they're like, okay, if there's some spirit named, you know, some other random thing, leave him in Jesus' name. And I just sat there like, I don't feel anything going on. And then they were like, okay, if there's this leave him in Jesus name. And suddenly I started shaking and vomiting.

I was shaking so badly. I smashed my glasses and broke them. At the end of it, I started laughing. And they were like, what demon is laughing? And I said, well, I think it's me. I just feel really peaceful now. And they're like, oh, okay, I guess we're done. This victory, while significant, was merely a battle one.

Unfortunately for Dr. Brown, his manifestations, while under control, would continue for months. It was a five-month process. The way it ended was dramatic. I was in the same prayer group that had first prayed for me because I decided I like these people. They seem to know what they're doing, and that's what I need. I was playing guitar and we were singing these worship songs. And at the end of one of the songs, I slumped over. And before I knew it, the leader came up and he called out the spirit by the name.

And he said, in Jesus' name, get out of him. And as soon as he said that, I threw the guitar aside, I ran to the bathroom and I just vomited all over. And I wasn't feeling sick. I just vomited for no apparent reason. And when I finally went back to the room, the whole room filled with it. with this horrible sulfur smell. And it gradually dissipated, but everyone smelled it. And I'm like, it wasn't me.

Like I did. And that was the end of it. That was the last time that there was any kind of manifestation. This was my introduction to deliverance ministry. And the name that Josh and Candy didn't want to share? Well, that is the crazy part. It turns out that the name was really important in a particular religious group that had just set up shop.

down the street from where we lived. And I had actually ended up talking with some of the people from this group in a park a few days before. I didn't think much of it, but Candy Googled the thing. And it was the name of a codebook for this cult. We didn't know that at all. So Josh found spiritual healing, but he was not out of the woods. There still lingered the ever-present threat of the brain tumor that threatened to end his life.

While listeners probably have surmised how it turned out, given that he was able to give us an interview, it's still a remarkable story. After that last ministry session, I never had any more symptoms. And I never had any surgery or chemo or radiation or anything. I had MRIs every three months. The first three months after the diagnosis, the MRI came back and they said, well, it still looks pretty bad. I said, well, I'm not going to give up because there's no plan B.

Plan B is die. I'm going to pursue miracles. and I'm either going to get miraculously healed or I'm going to die trying. Because if you don't hope for anything, you can't be disappointed. I was hoping against hope that I would somehow survive. By a year later, they did another MRI. The reading came back and they said, well, hmm, that's funny. You got some scar tissue in there.

And the talk of tumor just kind of went away. Josh shared that he would go in for routine exams every few months and a different radiologist would examine him. Each time there was no news, no growth. They just watched and waited. The last MRI had was seven years after that, and they said, oh, it looks like scar tissue in there. I've been totally fine for like 19 years now.

While it's certainly possible the healing and the deliverance were just two concurrent, unfortunate circumstances, Josh believes that somehow the two were related, though, of course, as a scientist, he's quick to state he can't prove that. The story, however, did leave a lasting impact on Josh. Today, in addition to scanning brains, he's added deliverance to his CV. The whole experience left me with this really indignant anger about the whole thing.

I was like, this should not happen. I do not like the idea that something took control of me. In the years since, I've spent hundreds of hours. I've prayed for hundreds of people. I've seen all kinds of crazy demonic manifestations. And I have this really strong desire to see people get free of that. Because I know it was horrible. And I don't want to see anyone suffer from that like I did.

I want to leave us with one final, very important question. A priest, a psychiatrist, and a neuroscientist walk into a bar. What do they all talk about? How awesome episode six was, of course. Thank you for joining us. And we'll see you in the next day. episode. If you'd like to learn more about the topic or hear bonus materials, you can visit us at our website at exorcistfiles.tv. You can also email us absurd and overly specific criticisms

at exorcist files at gmail.com. All cases in the exorcist files are recounted by Father Carlos Martens from his personal archives. The series is hosted by Father Martins and myself, Ryan Bethay. Today's contributors were Montsenior Patrick Brankin, Dr. Richard Gallagher, and Dr. Joshua Brown. producer, sound designer, editor and mixer is Chandler Mays. Executive producers are Carlos Martin's Ryan Bethay and Chandler Mays.