The Exorcist Files - Interview With The Holder Part 2: Dave VanVickle

Episode Date: November 6, 2025

Dave VanVickle has been assisting priests with their ministries of exorcism and deliverance for many years. He is widely considered an expert on the topic of spiritual warfare from a Catholic perspective and he travels all over the country teaching Catholics about the victory of Jesus Christ and his Church over the kingdom of darkness. Thank you to our sponsors!Rocketmoney- Rocketmoney.com/exfiles - start saving money now.Cowboy Colostrum- use our promo code EXFILES today and get 25% off. They don't call it liquid gold for no reason!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, Exorcist Files fans. We are just weeks away from some new dramatic episodes. I know, we've all been waiting, but if you're a vault member, I do want to say thank you again. Your support ensures that we can continue creating these incredible episodes. Vault members will, of course, receive the dramatic episodes a day early when they do come out. Today, we welcome back by popular demand, Dave Van Vickle, who has acted as a holder and assisted in deliverance ministry for many years. As usual, his stories are well, wild. Hope you enjoy. Welcome back to The Exorcist Files, where we are too blessed to be stressed. And with me today is the return of one our most popular guests. And while we call him the holder, in reality,

he does so much more than holding. And not to put this introduction on hold anymore, I'd like to turn it over and welcome my good friend, Dave Van Vickle. Dave, thanks for joining the show and coming back and giving us a part too. Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad to be a part of it. So happy to be a part of the work you're doing. Oh, well, thank you. And so, Dave, actually, just so we get this clear,

because I get many, you know, every episode I put out inside some criticism, it's too Catholic, it's too Protestant, it was neither, it was boring, it was too scary, it was heretical, it was too Orthodox, you know. So just for the listeners, so we can establish your theological credds, You are proudly Catholic, and so I would love the fans to hear that.

Sure. Just give us a little bit of your background again and your kind of faith journey, if you would. Yeah, I'm proudly, like you said, I'm proudly Catholic. I had the blessing of growing up in the Catholic charismatic renewal. And so for me, there was no problem between being Catholic and having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Like, those were one and the same. Whereas I know, like in Catholicism, we do have a crisis of discipleship. And your average Catholic might not even understand what it means to have a personal

relationship with Jesus. Even if they do, they might not know that language. And so we do take a lot of heat from that. But, you know, for me, the height of my personal relationship with the Lord is that what the fathers would say is that Christ never went away. He put himself into the sacraments, right? And so, you know, I'm happily Catholic and very much happy to have my personal issue with Jesus in that way.

And what is your connection again to all? our resident in-house exorcist, and obviously the connection because you have done a lot of work with deliverance ministry, hence your appearance today. But, yeah, remind the fans again, your connection with the Padre. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you probably understand. It's a very small-knit group, the people who work in this ministry. And we get to know each other. There are cases that sometimes they bring in people from all over to help and things like that. And so getting to know him, he's kind of a, Father Carlos is very unique in, in, even in exorcism because of his work with relics, right?

And so relics do play a big role sometimes in exorcisms. And so he's kind of in high demand at the conferences, but, but, you know, when we kind of hit it off when we first met and been friends ever since. And like anything with humans, there's going to be people you agree with and people you disagree with. And so you kind of have to find the people that give you the reason, you know, and give you the reason to believe in them and things like that. And Father Carlos is one of those guys that just everything is so well thought out,

so theological, so deep, you know, so I tend towards that. Now, we're going to get into because you actually got a chance to listen to one of our most popular episodes, which is the Eye of the Holder. And I'm curious, you know, right off the bat, you've, you know, Father Carlos, you've now listened to the show, but, you know, we both obviously agree. He just has such a phenomenal job, just thinking everything out. but what does the show capture accurately about the lead up to exorcism, the essence of spiritual warfare, and just Father Martin's teachings? Because you've done so much of this, but what does the show get right and what is so real to you based on your real experiences with this?

Yeah, you know what? Actually, it's funny that you say it because I found myself kind of like being like, man, I need to remember that. Like throughout the show, I was like, man, I really need to remember these things. One of the things that is so great about the show, and this is going to sound so obvious, is that it's clearly a spiritual battle, and everything that you would bring to a physical, normal battle, you bring to this, right, in a certain sense. And Father Carlos does such a good job of kind of reminding you of that,

whereas for people who work in it day in and day out, you try to make it a little bit more mundane. And that's not good. Like, you shouldn't do that, right? But there are ways to, you know, oversee this, to overinflate it. And he does just such a great job of, like, you know, saying, like, no, this is a very serious thing. We treat it like a battle.

There's no question about it. But we also don't give Satan too much power. And I think the best part of that episode to me is that people do not understand the human interactions that there are teams that get destroyed because of fights between people on the team, not because of the demons, right? In the middle of an exorcism, the team is fighting? Well, no, but there's definitely disagreements. I know of teams where they come out of the exorcism and they're obedient. So they're not saying it in there. and they're saying, you know, I disagree with what you said there or what you did there,

and they're gone, I mean, it's over, you know, that's the devil's got to that one. What would be an example of maybe a theolog, because obviously it sounds like, you know, present a united front in the middle of that battle, but what's either hypothetical or a real example where there might be, would it be a disagreement between one of the assistants, or maybe like a deacon who's praying and the priest, he might say, oh, I think we should go after a different target or what would be an example of kind of a theological disagreement? And I'm going to say, I'm not saying these cause conflicts, but a common disagreement would be whether a damned soul can possess a person. And so you might have a team

where a person is like, no way. There's no way that that's possible. I don't believe that that's true. Well, that's going to cause issues if the exorcist feels differently. And because someone's good thing one's lying and the other, the other thing, the demon, one thinks the demon's lying or just, yeah, wrong. Wrong. Yeah. Yeah, those kind of things. I also, Father Carlos is so fastidious about the rules, right? He's very fastidious about the rules. And any team I have left, it has been because they're not tough enough about the rules. So for instance, in the

eye of the holder, he very clearly says, no one speaks except for the exorcists, right, in that session. Well, it happens. People speak who shouldn't be speaking. And I, you know, I've left many sessions because of that. So. Wow. So in that episode, right, you know,

poor Gary right off the bat is being taunted by the demon. And obviously there's some clear, and maybe to go back, like, so the big issue there is Gary also decides to go into that. For those who haven't listened, we have a team being assembled for sort of a last minute exorcism,

and it really shows the priest can only do so much because he can't know the state. He just tells everybody, hey, before you go in there, make sure you're right with God. So right out of that, how important is it when you go into an exorcism to have gone to confession

or just to be right with God and will the demons use that against you if you are not ready to go when you go in? Yeah, there's no doubt in my mind. that's the case that, I mean, I've seen it happen over and over again where people have had to excuse themselves because of certain things in their life. And I would say, in the eye of the beholder, there was one thing I did disagree with. It was a statement. I don't remember who made it, but basically it was like if he had just stopped and gone to confession, everything would have been different. Okay. I think that was a major sin, right? Adultery is a major, like, and I think there needs to be some separation from a life like that before you get back involved. Not because I'm not saying like the devil would have been less effective. Certainly he would have. There's no question.

But it's not just, remember sin is not just like on an off switch or a moral thing. It's a human thing, right? Yeah. Your mind's not right. You know, you're away from things like that. And demons will take, they'll take liberties over all of those things. So I think like, yeah, this idea that you walk in, you better know your prayer life is an order.

You better know that your moral life is an order. And you better know the rules because, uh, One of the more wise statements in that episode is he's like, look, if you engaging in the spiritual battle in an extraordinary way, which would be exorcism, okay, so extraordinary demonic activity, so we would call that, if you're engaging a demon who has extraordinary demonic activity going on, that is basically giving them implicit permission to attack you. So you better be ready for that attack. Yeah, you step foot on the battlefield. I'm curious, and obviously you, maybe you could share this story briefly again because I know that it's funny. I don't know the exact theology, but obviously, you know, God says, I'll remember your sins no more, or at least I won't use them against you. But demons seem to have very good memories, you know,

and have seen things. And so you have an example where I think you stole a little teradactyl from a toy shop or something in a museum. From a natural history museum. Yeah, and the demons bring it up. So, you know, maybe you could mention, if you're not right with God, what are some examples where the demons will try and throw things at you? Look, they're looking for a thread to pull, right? Like, that's what they're looking for. And so you may not be a mortal sim, but I remember vividly a time when I was like missing mass. And for me, it's normal to go to mass throughout throughout the week. Okay. I wouldn't miss Sunday mass, but for me, it's normal to go to mass throughout the week. And I was

missing mass just because I was being lazy. There's no other reason, right? And so, you know, right away, you know, the demon's like, so you've been choosing Fox News over Mass a lot lately, you know? And it's like, you've been choosing Fox News over Mass? Yeah, right. Right. And 100% it's like, yeah, I'm sitting in my comfy chair. I'm watching Fox News and I'm like, hey, mass is going on right now. I'm so comfy here.

I'm going to stay here, you know. Well, that brings up a lot of questions. Is that the, is it your news station you're watching the sin? Or is it the missing mass? I'm going to assume it's the missing mass. Yeah, exactly. Right, right. Yeah.

No, they, you know, they'll do anything to try to, try to think that they have leverage over you, really what they want, they want you to think they have leverage, you know? And so it's all, it's all a big trick. But, you know, for me, it's like, look, I know I'm a sinner. That's not, that's never been an issue. And that's, that's important. You know, the humility part is important. So in that episode too, right, the priest in there says, hey, no one talks to the demon, make sure everybody's prayed up. Obviously, Gary ignores that and then gets in the room. And the demon begins taunting him. Is that something that's accurate? Like right away when you get in the room. Obviously, it depends on if the demon is manifested, but if it has, is that basically,

do you find it's the general rule that everyone in that room gets targeted? And it's like the priest's like, hey, if there's anything you've done, like, it's going to come out. So make sure you're right with God because they're just going to throw everything in the kitchen sink at you. Yeah, I think you've probably been hearing for enough extras that you see like there are some cases that the demons behave more like animals. And then there are some cases that are, it's, you are fighting a strategic team of demons sent from hell for a specific plan, right? And in those cases, some actually just call them once in a lifetime cases, but I think they come along more than that. But in those cases, very clearly, they're going to try and

dismantle the entire, they're going to find a way to try and dismantle the entire team. They're going to, they're going to go after everybody there somehow, and they'll pick the one that's the weakest first. So, yeah, if you're in sin, they're going to come after you. one of the things that, and I don't know, I haven't listened to other episodes, right? So, like, I don't know if you've covered this before, but when I finished the episode, I thought that was really good, but one of the things that wasn't mentioned is it's not just sin. I also think, like, just a mature emotional state and a mature mental state is really important. And I'll give me an example.

When my wife died, right, exorcism was a big part of my life. Like, I helped a lot of priests do this and stuff like that. And so I never, I was not accustomed to evaluating like, should I do this or not. And someone asked if I would come and be part of a case. And I was like, of course, you know. And this is maybe three months after she died. I didn't even think about the fact that that was not a good idea. Didn't even think about it.

And as soon as that priest made the sign of the cross, he was started talking to me like, we were there when she died. We were laughing. We were the ones who killed her, like all this. And it was like, boom, I'm out, you know. immediately it was like a light hit me and I was like, oh yeah, this is stupid. Why am I here right now? This is so crazy. Like this case doesn't bend on me. Why would I not know that I'm not in an emotional state to be able to do this? And so it's not just sin. I mean, sin is, that's the most important thing, but it's, you want to have very emotionally mature, mentally mature, and especially like when I was listening to the episode about the carisms, you better have really mature Christians there.

you know, if you're using charisms like that. And, you know, some exercises do and some exercises don't. And I know Father Carlos is so open to that. And I love that. That's what, I think that's what makes them so effective. But if someone's using charisms, you better make sure they know what they're doing. Amen. Father Martin's here.

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Words of knowledge and prophecies and things like that, you know. I'm curious. So is it, you know, so the demons obviously would want us so discord. But it's interesting, I mean, you talk about it. And again, we never want to give undue attention to this, but it's such a reminder that you are dealing, despite the crazy profanity and animalistic behaviors, you are dealing with an intelligence here that knew from the moment you walked in, oh, we're just going to, we're just going to go right off the bat and knock one guy out. Like, we're just going to get a chaos right off the bat and take out a warrior because, you know, it's not a sin thing. It's just an emotional thing. So, for example, have you seen a case, for example, where they could they detect, like, oh, there's envy between two members of the three members of the three. team who are good people and they're going to respond better to one the other and try and play off each other's rivalries. I mean, are all those things on the table? The way they operate is just the way they always operate like in scripture and daily life, right? That they, the way demons get to

know you through temptation and they watch everything, right? They're so good at watching biology, right? Like it was so good at watching. And so for instance, if there's a thought like, well, I wish I was as holy as that person in the room, they'll pull that thread for sure. they'll try. Well, you have to make sure is that the team is focusing on God. And so that thought is in and out, right? It's in and out of their head. Like, they're not, they're not having that thread to pull. And essentially, when those lies and those accusations start, because also, they're going to call out fake stuff too, right? And you just have to, you know, Father Martens has this wonderful tone of almost like an annoyed principle where it's just like,

nope, shut up, like, you know, enough, right? And is that, do you find that's actually like kind of the healthy, just is kind of, it gets taken seriously, but you're also like scolding a four-year-old. Is that how you've seen a lot of these successful exorcism go? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, when I'm helping diocese pick somebody, you've got to make sure that they're not going to get overly attached to the case because one of the most common things like any exorcist will report is that, you know, you have this person in front of you and they'll say, like, in their own voice, they'll say, it's hurting me, it's hurting me, it's hurting me,

right? And you'll have this idea that, like, we have to stop right now. it's a lie, right? It's a lie, you know, a good exorcist will pelt him with holy water and that trick is unveiled immediately. The demon starts laughing or something like that. So they'll play on your heartstrings big time. And so, yeah, you have to be really, in a sense, like, emotionally detached from it,

but all at the same time, you know, just watching to make sure, like, what is real here and what's a lie? I mean, that there, I think an exorcist is constantly, constantly throughout the extras I'm trying to evaluate. what is real and what's a lie? As far as the preparation goes too, right? Obviously, this is a dramatic episode, and we have to tweak a few things and condense it into, you know, 45 minutes, et cetera. But as far as the day of and the prep, you know, like game day, for lack of better term, it seemed very similar to me, like just prepping for a football game where it's like,

right, where's the game tape? What are we dealing with? You know, what do we think? Is that all pretty standard? Like, I mean, you'd have several prayer warriors in a priest, like sitting around having coffee talking about, hey, this is the victim. This is what's been done. And this is what we're going, like, what is the balance between like, this is the plan?

And then like Mike Tyson says, the plan, you get punched in the face and the plane goes out the window. So what's the walk us through? How do you navigate that? Yeah, I think if someone's asking for my opinion, it's like you start a math. You start with mass is usually what we would start with. And after mass, you might have that meeting. So this was a new case, which is why they're having this meeting to talk about what's going on here.

And that exorcist was open to discernment from the team. So that would be like involving them even more. But we would do mass rosary. There'd be a lot of fasting involved. There's no question in my mind. But similar, you know, you mentioned the football analogy. You practice how you play. You want to find a very faithful Catholic who is doing that stuff already in their life.

They're not just doing it to respond to the devil. Like that's an important thing to remember. Because one of the temptations is so the devil can't scare you away. All right, well, let's get him obsessed with spiritual warfare. and all of a sudden your relationship with the Lord is entirely about spiritual warfare, and it's not healthy, you know? Absolutely. And do you get nervous before going into these cases?

It's funny. Father Martins has said many times that God has just really gifted him with an ability to kind of just compartmentalize. And, you know, I think just walking in that identity of Christ, you realize that the, you know, it's got to be strange. Like, you walk in and you don't know what God, like, you know that God is in control. And so the battle's like, the war is won. Like, God's going to have happened what he has to have.

But he allows both the victim, because they have to participate, and the exorcist and their team to be conduits of his grace to help out as well. And so, you know, do you get nervous or is it more like that's kind of beginners, for lack of better term, who are like, haven't seen some of the parlor tricks. Then there comes a point when you realize this is actually more like an exterminator just being called like, all right, we've got roaches. We're going to hopefully get them out in one, but maybe we have to tent the whole place. I wouldn't say I get nervous.

That's not ever what I feel. the human side of exorcism is that people end up possessed for a reason. And the reason is usually really, really awful. And I do get a little bit uncomfortable, which is why I've stepped away from actually assisting in exorcism. Now I really just speak on it. I do get uncomfortable with just taking too much of that baggage on. Like, I just, it's hard to hear the steps that these people took to get to this point. And I get nervous about that. But, not about the stupid stuff that the devil does. The second I saw a 100-pound 90-year-old priest command a demon that was bending

candlesticks and doing all kinds of things to sit down and they just did it immediately. It was like, okay, we're good, you know, like I feel safe, you know. So you kind of learned that in the beginning. But I don't think it really shouldn't be any nerves if you're going in. You better, that's not a great way to go. You know, it's not a good thing to do. To play a little bit an ecumenical card for Protestants out there who are, you know, I've heard some of these stories. You know, Father has all, you know, his questions of asking demons, who your nemesis is in heaven, you know, the role of saints and angels and Mary in these exorcisms.

Could you just talk to us like, hey, look, this is my experience. You can disagree with theology, but I'm telling you what I've seen in that room. Maybe we start with intercession of the saints. Like, you have shared stories where it is not just you and the team in that room, but there are like heavenly reinforcements in that room, like working with you, right? Yeah. I mean, it seems to me that even before I was part of exorcism, I realized that God loves to act through secondary sources.

Like, he loves to show his power through secondary sources. And we see that over and over again, right? Like, it could be a sacramental. It could be a relic or something like that. It could be something just very nondescript, you know. And I think in a certain sense, like what it shows is it communicates just how powerful God is, that it doesn't need to be him, right? It could be the mirror reflecting him, right? And so really commonly we see, you know, some kind of reaction to the litany of saints

or something like that. And commonly, I remember one time in particular, you know, it was praying and it was in between exorcisms. I don't know if we've ever explained this phenomenon, but sometimes, like, if you feel like you're making progress, they'll finish an exorcism and then they'll be like, hey, let's go to the bathroom, let's start another one, okay? Like, it's possible that this would happen, okay? And what they do is they don't want any pressure to be let off the demons. And so they might pray the litany of saints in between or they might pray the rosary in between or something like that to make sure that you continued on.

And I remember one time praying the litany of saints and St. Francis of Sisi and there was just a terrible reaction, like just unbelievable reaction, you know, just screaming and all this kind of stuff. And basically I just started like, I felt like just very called to start praying for the intercession of some Franciscan priests who I knew were holy that had died. They weren't even declared saints. I just started praying for their session and asking them. And the reaction I got was unbelievable, right? Just unbelievable.

And I think that what it shows is a few different things. First of all, it could be just that, right, this demon feared St. Francis of Assisi deeply. But I also knew these. priests well. And the community of saints is a part of a manifestation of God's family, right? Like that we get to know each other and they call us on and this like kind of metaphysical relationship that happens between us and those who have gone before us. That's not creepy. It's not being a medium or anything like that. It's literally them cheering us on. And so, you know, that closeness, I think is probably part of what the demon was sensing is that like I don't like this network

that's there. Similar with angels, right? Angels show up all the time. They pop up all the time throughout exorcisms, and guardian angels, right, often, very often will play a role in that. And in fact, I've seen a lot of exorcisms end with guardian angels, being the one who God finally says, like, okay, you go and end this completely kicked him up. Could you share a story or two of angelic appearances or a guardian angel, you know, finishing, you know, like Mortal Kombat? Finish him.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if I shared this on the last episode, but, you know, there was this case, this kid, he had like escaped to a cult when he was like 16. And when he was 18, he wrote a letter to his parents. He got a letter to his parents. He said, I want to leave, but they won't let me. And his parents like basically like kidnapped him out. They hired like some group of like ex military. It sounded like the 18 and got them out and stuff started happening. And the diocese did not have a team set up. And so they appointed a young priest that the bishop trusted just for this one case, which it happened. I mean,

there are times when that just happens. It's not ideal, but it does happen. And boy, we went all day with this poor kid. And I mean, it was all the things you see in the movies, we saw it. It was just crazy stuff. And his parents were there. They were part of the team. They were devout Catholics. And they helped us. And it was kind of incredible, but we were making no progress whatsoever. And like about eight o'clock, so we're going on 12 hours here of praying with this kid. And about eight o'clock, his mom left abruptly. I thought it was so strange. I thought it was so strange you know it was getting more and more violence it was getting to the point like we were all getting headaches and things like that about 20 minutes later she comes back into the room like and

we're in this little retreat center so i could hear her car pull up the door closed and everything she comes back in the room and she has this icon of there's like a greek orthodox icon of a guardian angel and she says to well i'll just call him jonathan she says i brought your angel okay and at this point like his eyes rolled back in his head but i saw his eyes when she said i saw his eyes roll forward and he looked at that angel. His eyes rolled back and just everything just stopped. There was just kind of like the battle kind of paused completely. And it was kind of a strange moment.

And there was some peace like, you know, in the room. It seemed like something was going on that was good. And this young priest, you know, put a stall on the kid's shoulder and said, you know, I command you to tell me who you are. Before he did this, I mean, believe it or not, this kid had been screaming profanities all day, just preter natural voices coming out of his body. and before he put his stole on there,

we heard like choirs saying, like beautiful music. It was the strangest thing, you know. I mean, I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it. And then he kind of quieted it down and then the priest put his stall on it and said, I command you to tell me who you are. And he said, I am the angel who stands before the throne of God for this little one. No longer shall he be oppressed, but tonight he shall go free.

This young man made the sign of the cross. His eyes rolled forward and he was freed. It was like, there's a guardian angel. Now, we've come to find out later on that he was really close with his godparents. Even though he rejected all manner of faith, his godparents had gotten this Greek Orthodox icon of the guardian angel. And he always kept that. So his parents, like, he would throw away Bibles, he would throw away, but he for some reason always kept that. And come to find out later, he actually used to every day pray to his guardian angel, like for,

an intercession of his guardian angel. So he had this. And so God then used that little scrap of grace, you know, to bring him out of this oppression. It was kind of amazing. I think you did share that story, but it's so I forgot about it. And that's beautiful. And to the skeptic who goes, Dave, I mean, already the whole exorcism thing is just wild. But is there any, you know, what would a skeptic say? Like, oh, he saw the statue and started singing as a result in like a bipolar state. Like, is there any way to naturally explain that? And I also, I just think about it as a Protestant. It's like, I don't know, there's nothing to me that would go against the idea that, like,

was we all angels protect. God uses angels to send messages. We see them all throughout scripture. It's just like, it's funny. I always find myself, like, what is so uncomfortable about having one that's assigned to you? Frankly, the only uncomfortable is I think I need more than one, you know, give. And then I guess what's the appropriate way to engage with them?

because, you know, from a Protestant standpoint, too, right, there's always this, the deep desires never to undermine Christ and his work. And that's what I think is the reticence about intercession of the saints or guardian angels. But I thought, I mean, if it's a gift to you, why not, why not ask, say, hey, by the way, thank you. What would you say to someone who's like, this sounds weird, but all right, if I do have a garden angel, like, what's the appropriate step to start a conversation? Yeah, well, the first thing to remember is that they're not recycled. So our guardian angel was created with us in mind, which is a grace, a mercy, right? Because what it means is that God do our weaknesses and our strengths and created this angel to assist us in going to heaven.

And what we believe is Catholics is that basically if we're in a state of grace and we remain in that state of grace, we grow in holiness, right? We let sanctifying grace come to fruition in our life. That the more we acknowledge them, the more they're allowed to play a role in our life, the more that we, engage them, the more they're allowed to play a role in our life. And so you have saints like Padre Pio, for instance, who had palpable relationships with his guardian angel and very much so had, I mean, on a daily basis, could see his guardian angel's power in his life because of that, you know? And so Oria Terez of Lassu, who on her end, you know, would ask her guardian angel to assist her when she would pray, you know, like, will you pray this with me? Will you do this with me? And so that would be an

appropriate way. What we don't ever do is we don't we don't give them names okay because they're not pets, right? God created them. He is the power to name. And we also we should be careful about ordering our guardian angel. This is kind of a new trend here that's coming about that people are telling their guardian angels to go do tasks for them. And I kind of think like, nope, just stay right here, do whatever God wants you to do. Like I'll keep that here. Yeah. And I think a lot of it obviously comes to my think it's, I was looking at up, it's, Colossians 218 and Paul warns about the worship of angels. And so, I mean, I'd need to get a commentary out and see on that.

But you're right. So is there a trend to like, do you think that guardian angel obsession can veer often to worship? What's the healthy response? Yeah, I don't know if you've seen this so, but like, I mean, guardian angels as a topic is being totally co-opted by the new age. It's a big deal now. Oh, really? Yeah.

In the new age movement, it's a bit. So in the 70s, you met your spirit guide, right? Now you're meeting your angel. That's their thing now. And it's a way for them to try to drag Christians into it. But what I would say is, yeah, of course, everything has to be, we don't worship angels, right? We don't worship saints. We ask for their intercession.

And you better make sure that that's the way it is, right? Because you'll see, particularly like in South America, there are churches that are worshiping particular saints, right? So they've gone way too far, right, in that case. And of course, like, you know, Jesus, it's funny, you know, like, we have all these relics, and I always, I'll bring them around to, like, talk to people, like, to schools around the area and stuff like that. I always say to the kids, like, if there's a fire here, what am I going to save first, right? Well, we're going to save the Eucharist, right?

Because Jesus is what makes saints, right? That's, you know, these are, these mean nothing compared to the Lord, you know? And so that's what's important to understand. Amazing. Are there any other angelic encounters you've seen in a room in the choir thing is just wild? But any other evidence, you know, because again, one thing I try to provide on the show is, like, even if you are theoretically having, you know, differences with what's being taught here, it's like, I kind of go off if the demons are repulsed by something,

that's probably evidence that it's true and good for us to, like, go for. So despite differences in Marian doctrines or dogma, you're like, all right, they do seem to hate the mother of God. And with a particular revulsion, I'm curious. And then obviously angels, you know, a very popular topic. Have you? Can we just jump to me real quick for just real quickly? It's like one of the things that demons hate so much is they hate flesh.

They despise flesh. Why? Because they don't live in time. They live in what we call epiturnity, right? Meaning that they experience time, but not in a linear fashion like humans do. Okay. So the fact that a human can reject Christ and the very next minute turn back to him and go to his mercy is a fact of the matter that we live in a linear time, right? Like we have bodies

and we live in time. And that, they despise that. They hate that because we don't live in rebellion. We can go in and out of it and ask the Lord for mercy. And so we always have a chance. Well, the flesh, the reason why the flesh is so important is because our Savior took flesh, right? And we believe, both Protestants and Catholics believe that he was conceived by the Holy spirits, okay? And so his flesh comes entirely from his mother, right? And so, of course, even just in a natural sense, they would despise the mother who gave him the flesh that he would use to save the world with, right? That he would pierce on a cross to save the world with. So just a natural way. Of course, they would hate it. And again, like, you know, you can go too far in your, in your

relationship with Mary, but like, just even think about someone that you maybe have had a rivalry with you don't like their mom either, right? You don't like their family or anything like that. But as far as angels go, there was a neat situation where, you know, sometimes I don't know if you had this, like,

if you've seen this phenomenon when you talk to Exorcist, but like sometimes the victim comes in and out of lucidity during the, yeah. And so the Exorcist will talk to them, you know, when it's that person. And there was this case and this guy, probably one of the worst cases I was ever part of,

of as far as like phenomenon goes. And he was, he was writing a movie. It was a strange thing. And the case kind of had to do with the movie. It was a weird deal. Like every time, every time of the priest said,

I command you to tell me the time and by what manner you show, you know, the sign you show tell us that you'll leave. He would talk about like when he finishes this movie. He's got to finish this movie. He's got to finish this movie. You know. And I remember reading it and it wasn't like,

it was kind of, I don't know, junk to me. It wasn't impressive or any, in any way. But it had to do with St. Michael, the Archangel, who's very strange, you know, this movie, and we're thinking. At one point during one of the exorcisms, you know, he's coming in and out of lucidity, and he's like, they're really afraid today. He's like, this is really weird.

Normally, they're just, I just feel their hatred and their aggression, but they're very nervous. And they keep looking to the east. And we're like, what the heck, you know? And you have to be careful, right? because demons are always trying to get you, they're trying to get your attention into like weird stuff and something like that. But he kept saying, like, they're terrible. They keep looking to the east and they're terrified of what's coming from the east.

And at one point, he's like, there's something coming. I can see it's almost like a wave. It's almost like a wave, but it's coming. And he's like building this up as we're talking to him as the exorcism goes on. He's like, no, it's not a wave. It's an army.

And it's coming and it's getting closer and closer. And at one point he says, there's one person out front who's leading this whole thing. And he's coming. And as he's coming, the demons are getting more and more scared. And actually they're leaving. They're starting to leave one by one. And at one point, he says, I can see very clearly that this is an army of angels coming towards us from the east.

He said, the one out front has to be the one you've told me about. This has to be Michael. And literally said that as Michael came forward, leading these angelic armies that by the time he walked up and walked next to this young man who was writing this movie, who was the victim, that all of the demons had run away screaming. That it was like that was all it took. It didn't take any battle. It didn't take anything like that, but that he just showed up basically on the scene.

And that was how it ended. And I remember, I don't know, there was enough preternatural activity that I would have never doubted that this was real. like this is i mean he was doing things that no one else you know you can't prove by science or anything like that but i remember thinking like wow this is incredible like st michael came from on from afar and intervened in this case and brought the angelic armies and he didn't even need to draw a sword you know didn't even like that kind of thing i don't being colloquial but like of course you know i'm curious too you know you mentioned relics and saints and you shared a story in your last interview about a demon who

actually broke free and was going to try and kill you or try and slit your throat, but was being held at bay by the prayers and intercession of a relatively unknown little saints from Luca. Have you experienced any other crazy manifestations of, you know, we've heard stories of like Joseph and his staff beating a demon, or have you heard of any other appearances that would, or any other experiences which would give you high confidence that God's family's in the room enacting and helping set someone free. There's one in particular, and I've told this story publicly before, about St. Joseph, that I am incredibly moved by and, you know, has, like, has inspired me to try to have a

relationship with St. Joseph because of it. And it was a, this girl, basically her father was a drug addict and basically trafficked her when she was a child and she ended up running away and basically in and out of the sex industry in some way or another but became involved in pornography, serious hard drugs and went to a like a rehab facility and another porn star who had been who was there that she knew kind of not really but she knew her of her like walked up to her one day and was like oh my gosh like you're here and she's like yeah you're here how long have you been here she's like well I've been here in about three months and she's like, well, you have any tips for me? And she's like,

the only way you're going to get through this is if you give your life to Jesus. Then this little girl was like, what are you kidding me? Like, I know who you are and what you've done. Like, you're telling me you're a Christian now? And she's like, yeah, I'm every bit of Christian. She's like, if you had any idea of the addiction I had, there's no way I could have done it without the Lord taking it from me. So they get to know each other. She gives her life to the Lord and has this dramatic conversion and this rehab facility is run by like a i think it was like an evangelical church or something like that they're great at disciplining so they're doing this at the same time she's in the rehab facility her father who she hasn't seen in 20 or 30 years is kind of being targeted by this lutheran minister

he's in prison and this new lutheran minister like sees this guy and is like i got it like the lord wants him and starts to evangelize her father okay now he has cancer he's dying, he's going to die in prison. He writes her a letter, I've given my life to the Lord, I've changed my life, but I'm going to die in prison. I'm so sorry for everything I ever did to you, and I apologize. And he says to this minister, can you get this to my daughter? He says, sure. She gets it while she's in rehab and she's like, nope, I'm not even going to read it. Like, she's so hardened. I've never in my life at anyone who struggled with withholding forgiveness like this in my life. Even as a new Christian.

You even mentioned fatherhood and she just would go. So this is the porn star who has had a conversion to Christ, but still has a pocket of unforgiveness that is just unassailable. Oh, yeah. I mean, this wound was deep. So she ends up basically moving in. The dad's sister finds her and is like, you're the only relative. I'm your only relative.

I've never met you. Come and live with us, you know. So she comes and lives with them and. They're Catholics. She brings them to Mass. She starts to throw up during Mass. Weird things starts happening. Priest comes over and he has like a wind breaker on.

And he unzipped his windbreaker and she sees that collar. She doesn't even know anything about priests. And she runs out into the woods, has to get away from as fast as possible. Anyway, she's eventually admitted for exorcism. And I knew her for about a year. She was sweet and wonderful and wanted so desperately to be freed. But if you brought up forgiving her father, she'd try to kill you.

I mean, there was just no way it was going to happen. And the priest who I was assisting had this beautiful relationship with St. Joseph. He just one day he was almost like out of frustration. He says like St. Joseph, please, you have to show her what real fathers are like so that she can forgive her own father. Something to that effect. He says something like that. And Ryan, I don't know.

I mean, the only way I could describe it, so the door opened of this room when he said that. And the only way I can describe it, it's like fatherhood as a concept or fatherhood as a charism. I don't know what you would say as a force walked into that room. And she's looking at the door and she's sitting in a chair. And there's a chair right next to her that I was sitting in at one point, but I was standing up.

And I can very clearly see her like her eyes move. to the point where someone, it's like someone sat down in that chair and her mouth is just gaping wide open. And she's like, I can't believe it's you. I can't believe it's you. And she's also looking up a little bit and she has this conversation. And we're listening to it. And it is very clear to me that she is talking to her father. And at one point she says, I forgive you also. and I'm so sorry that I didn't read your letter before you died, but I forgive you also. She starts crying.

She eventually just kind of calms down a little bit, and she's not looking at the chair next to her anymore. At one point, like while she's crying, it looks like she's hugging someone. And basically after she calms down, the exorcist says, what happened? And she says, well, when you prayed to St. Joseph, this old man with a staff walked in the room,

and behind him, I know you're not going to believe this, but was my dad. And my dad came and asked me for forgiveness for everything that he had done and that he wanted to reconcile with me. And he said, what happened to the demons? And she said, the demons were trying desperately to get in between us and the old man with the staff would just merely hold up his hand and they would be repelled immediately. And I mean, I don't know what anyone else.

Most Catholics, I think, would realize, like, this is St. Joseph. Like, that's what happened. And St. Joseph said, that's it. I'm going to bring her father there in some way, some metaphysical way. And I'm going to make sure that this forgiveness happens if that's the one way, that's the only thing left to get this poor child freed. I mean, it was incredible. Just when you think you've even attempted to capture 1% of how God does stuff,

just change the game again. And there's just, can't put them in a box. This is just, well, I guess they tried to put them in a box in the tabernacle, and it didn't work out. You know, as we wrap up here, Dave, I want to ask you, given that you said you've mentioned that people get possessed for terrible reasons, and you've seen, we've talked about unforgiveness, we've talked about, obviously, adultery and the holder.

Many of our episodes talk about unforgiveness, sexual sin, you know, obviously dabbling the occult being just the clear violations of God's law and the more severe the violation. the more opportunity for demonization. But what in your experience has been the main doorways that have been opened when they're going through renunciations and closing doors? What are the most common doors that you've seen opened? And obviously, adjusting with the fact that by the time it reaches an exorcism,

it's probably a pretty serious case. So I'm going to assume it your cases that you've been exposed to indexed for more egregious violations. I would say explicit violations of the First Commandment are the most common. But all of my case, all of the bad cases that I've ever been a part of had both that and childhood trauma. That is another big one, childhood trauma. If someone abuses a child, it is really, really difficult to reconcile a loving God with that, right? To say, like, well, there's a God who holds the universe in my hand, and he still allowed that to happen to me as a child. Because every time you want to learn about the devil, you have to go back to Eden and think about

what he was doing at Eden, right? And so the devil in every 100% of our cases, in 100% of our lives, is going to say, did God really say that if you ate this, right? He's going to play those strings right there, like where he's going to say, like, you know, do you really, can you really trust that God has your best interest at heart? So if you've been victimized as a child, they're going to really turn the screws on you. And then you get involved in the occult, And that's, it's a recipe for disaster because that's when you see, those are the cases that are the worst, in my opinion. So when you say violations first commandment, typically you're talking about people who have engaged in the occult and try to assert God's role and authority in their life. But I can't help but wonder so many of us, you know, we all have idols in our lives that we are unaware of or maybe aware of and you refuse to take down.

But for a lot of guys, it can be work and identity and work, et cetera. but are you in these many of these cases you're referring to explicit occult dealing tarot cards astrology they're worshipping saint right you know really yeah most possession cases they there was a point where they said i want a demon to come into me like they really yes most position points yeah and so when you're getting them to renounce it is it because it's funny from an outsider we're like this is so obvious get rid of it but you know in this in the show we depict there's this tension and it's hard to give up because, is it because they've been comforted

or they've been given powers or what is causing the dissonance between letting it go when it seems so obvious that you would want to be free? And again, this applies to all of humanity. There's that deep fear

that does God still love us, is God's mercy big enough for us? Because there is some thought that if it's not, then I want to be, then I'm going to go all the way, right? Then I'm going to be on the opposite. I completely.

And so similar to like infant baptism, right, when someone is possessed, there will be that initial ceremony, like where the Holy Spirit comes into them. And then their parents teach them how to accept that throughout their life. Like you pray, you renew your baptismal promises. You do those things, right? Well, in possession, it's heinous acts of sin, right? So like you'll do that ceremony. And then they'll say, well, now you should do this. You know, now you should do this.

And it'll like cement that relationship. That is terrible. Typically, when people, you say they invite demons into them, what is the typical, if there is such a thing, course of action that leads someone to get to a place where they would actually knowingly do that? Like, what's the downstream cause of that? Because a lot of listeners are hearing this going, all right, maybe some wacko would do that or if you're deceived, but like, it's sometimes I've heard in these stories that they're like, people who were like totally normal, you know, we had a, we had a guy shared testimony where his dad was a Baptist minister and God deceived and it actually invited evil into his life. And you go, what would quote possess someone to want to do that? Yeah. Yeah. If you imagine you can idolize

anything, it starts with an idol, right? There's something you desperately want in your life. And I'm, I'm generalizing here, right? This is the path of like maybe, let's say 90%. There's something you desperately want your life and you can't get it through natural means or or prayer or something like that. And so you decide, well, what is out there that could get this for me? And so, you know, for instance, the case where St. Michael came, he was like a semi-pro soccer player and he was second string. And all he ever wanted was to be first string of this one position.

And one day met a Haitian voodoo priests and, you know, said, I can get that for you by tomorrow. And sure enough, you know, the guy who was in front of it broke his leg. well, this guy got fascinated with it, right? I mean, that was much easier than working hard and doing all the things you're supposed to do, right? And so he got fascinated with it and eventually got seriously into voodoo to the point where, you know, the person who was guiding him said, well, the next step would be that you do the ceremony and open yourself up to, you know, this God that we've been worshipping, basically. So that's a pretty typical way.

Like for satanic cults, it's usually chill, it's parents doing it to their, children, right? They're cursing their children. And with witches, I have found it's more like trauma pushes that, right, trauma pushes them to seek a power that they don't, they're not going to be able to have. And so they find, not Wiccans, but they find like actual covens, right, like these evil, you know, witches who worship Satan or some form of Satan, right? And they will, there's, you know, some ceremony where they'll allow someone to possess them. It's often sexual in nature. or drugs, sometimes they use drugs, like stuff like that.

Oh, man. Well, that's terrible. Yeah, it's interesting. I can imagine similar to like a therapist who's hearing people bear out their soul and difficult, I just can't imagine the, just the effect on y'all as you hear these terrible stories and the grief

and just the things you've had to deal with. But maybe to kind of land our plan on some upbeat notes, what's, you know, and again, this will sound ironic because they're in a statement, but, you know, Dave, you shared with us that you tragically lost your wife, but that you are,

not doubting God's goodness that you've been walking in, you know, a freedom of knowing that God is sovereign and a hope that, you know, they'll be, you know, reunited in heaven one day and the death does not separate us. So maybe you could share for those right now who are hurting and have lost a loved one and just, you know, the heaviness of this whole topic, you could help land our plan on an upbeat notes in light of which you've experienced. Yeah. Well, can I, can I share something else first? Of course, please. Please. You know, on an upbeat note, with shows like this,

you're highlighting something that's important, right? You're trying to teach a specific topic. What's important to understand is that, like, and what I have found since I've stepped away from exorcism is that an ordinary Christian life is exorcistic. I have seen this over and over again. Like human relationships, it's not like necessarily you're praying for deliverance for each other,

but loving two people who are in love with the Lord who, you know, encounter each other. Like, that is an exorcistic act that Satan despises it. And I think it's important to realize, like, hey, every day you just choose to love whoever's in front of you, you are fighting Satan just as much as any exorcist or anything like that. You are doing that. And I have found that our family life is just, it's very exorcistic as I've been kind

of trapped at home, right? I'm not traveling doing ministry anymore, right? we open our home to whoever needs family, you know, and it's incredibly, I've seen much more liberation through my children and through encountering people than I have in the ministry, to be honest with you. So the good news is like,

hey, fight the battle, just love each other, right? That's a powerful exorcism. And then, you know, about those who are hurting, like I have a heart for anyone who's hurting. You know, we have a long line of tragedy in our family of two, children with severe disabilities and a child who went through some severe medical problems,

you know, we thought she was going to die. And recently a friend just was diagnosed with cancer and she texted me and she said, how did you possibly keep your faith while your wife was dying with cancer? And what I would say is like two things. The first is this, that it's great to be the Peter who steps out of the boat, but it's also okay to be the Peter who is drowning and says save Lord. right it's that they are both christians right you're both real christians and to be honest with you i think my faith was strongest when i was saying save lord save lord right when i needed him desperately that's the first thing the second thing i would say is this that if you're in the midst of suffering which all of you are like i i've come to the conclusion that if we all could see our crosses

we would be like i'll take mine you take yours i don't want anything to do with yours you know the sooner you can stop thinking of god is like looking down on your situation and realizing that he's on the other side of that cross, the better your relationship with the Lord is going to be. That it's not just, God, why are you doing this to me? It's that God is literally going through this with you and that he's on that cross with you. And that's the only thing that's going to get you through it.

And it's been not just a survival, but a blessing in our life to have that kind of relationship with the Lord to understand what he goes through on the cross and have a little piece of it, not understand it, obviously, but have a little piece of what he goes through. Well said, man. Well, said. Well, God bless you, Dave.

You have such a gift with words, and the spirit is on this message, and I just feel it. And thank you for laying us on upbeat notes. And you've been through it. I mean, it's, and I will say, too, I mean, you're a big guy, too. You're exactly who I want walking in the room. If I, I always, when I think of, like, the A team, you know, the Apostle team coming in for the extrasum, I want, you know, Father Martin's walking in just like with some shades.

I want you walk. in to hold. I want Zeta with his big beard and his wizard staff. Yeah, totally. And I was like, that's the Avengers of God, the Lord is an Avenger. And I was like, that's the team. So you're on my exorcistic A team. I want walking in when we need the big guns. So thank you so much for sharing with us and encouraging us. And if folks want to learn more about your hiring you to come speak or inviting you to give a talk, where can they reach you? It's the Catholic Truth About Angels and Demons.com, which I know is,

mouthful, but it is. We're going to link to that. So click the show notes and you can learn more about Dave and his work. Well, thank you so much, Dave. And folks, stay exorcistic, love each other, forgive each other, stay in church, love God, and don't worry about this stuff. Because you live a, right, Dave, you live a great life close to God. You don't need to be afraid of no demons. Yep, they're afraid of you. All right. Talk soon, y'all.