The Exorcist Files - Spiritual Warfare and Renewal with Ralph Martin

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Ralph Martin shares testimonies of spiritual warfare, supernatural deliverance and a life in the spirit.Thanks to our sponsors for making this show possible!Head to LUMEN.ME/EXFILES and use promocode EXFILES For 20% offCheck out "The Lion" for all your news needs. Completely free.Want to honor God with every step? Check out WeareUnitus.com and use promo code EXFILES for 10% off your orderFollow Us on Social and Bonus ContentCheck Out The After Sessions- Bonus Theology Discussions with Ryan and Ex Files Team Members@ExorcistFiles on IGFather Martins YouTubeRyan on IG- @TheBetheaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

And I've seen pretty amazing things. Like our country coordinators who work in these different countries, you see amazing things. Like one time one of our guys was praying for somebody, and a big black state came out of his mouth. Hold up, hold up. Stop the press here. So this wasn't you.

One of your team members was praying for someone. Yeah. Tom Edwards, he was in Africa. He was in Tanzania. And sometimes in Africa gets pretty wild, you know, and you see a lot of manifestations. because people are still going to witch doctors. People are still afraid of curses that are being put on them.

People are tempted to protect themselves against evil spirits by invoking evil spirits, you know, to protect them type of thing. Welcome back to The Exorcist Files, the show where we tell demons where they can go to, hello friends. I am your co-host, Ryan Bethay. And today we are bringing you one of our last few bonus episodes before the return of the final dramatic 3D surround sound case files from season two.

These are the topical episodes we promised, and we are so excited to deliver them to you. Today we are bringing you an interview with Ralph Martin and talking about all things supernatural, including miracles and, of course, spiritual warfare. I really enjoyed this, and I found his stories to be absolutely fascinating and inspiring. Remember, it's not all demons all the time here. We do like to point out the cool stuff God is doing. Now, I do want to honor a sponsor because you know what? Sponsors help make this show possible. And one of those sponsors is Lumen. So Lumen makes those nifty little handheld metabolic coaches that help you figure out just what is happening with your metabolism.

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That's lumen.me. slash eX files. You can get 20% off your lumen. And with that, let's head to the show. Welcome back to the Exorcist Files, the show, where we're We tell demons in the name of Jesus, you got to go. We are joined by yet another special guest. All your guests are special.

It's like they say you love all your children, but some of your favorite. This is a subject I'm very passionate about, and I'm so honored and thrilled to be able to bring someone to talk about it today. We have Professor Ralph Martin with us. Ralph, thank you so much for being here. Would you just introduce yourself to the fans, and don't be humble? Tell them a little bit about your background, because they've got to know who they're speaking with here,

the King of Flannel and Charismatic Renewel. Yeah. Well, first of all, I can't believe I'm on a program called Exorcist Files. That's kind of wild. You live long enough, right? Yeah. So my name is Ralph Martin. I teach at Sacred Heart Seminary, the Catholic Seminary and the Catholic Archdiocese of Detroit. I'm in charge of our graduate theology programs and evangelization. And I'm also a president of a Catholic mission organization called Renewal Ministries, where we just try to preach the gospel. We try to bring people to Christ.

We try to help people become more of disciples. We try to help people become evangelists themselves. And we work in about 40 different countries. And we had a team just returned from Ethiopia just yesterday. And what were heroic people they are serving. And we have teams going out all over the world all the time. And we also have a weekly TV program called The Choices We Face, which is the longest-running Catholic television program on EWTN,

which is the biggest Catholic media network. work and we have a couple daily radio programs and a big YouTube channel and so all those kinds of things. But it's basically we just want people to know who Jesus is. We just want people to believe and repent and be converted and persevere to the end and be saved. So that's kind of where we're at. Also, I know you really are emulating Christ because, you know, he had to send out the 72 and I think you're working on that. 19 grandchildren. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You're working on your own following there, right?

Yeah, well, so far so good. I mean, all my children and their spouses and all the grandchildren are all pointing in the right direction at the moment. But it's a long journey, as you know, Ryan. We've both seen casualties along the way, and we just did to keep her eyes on Jesus and just keep faithful. Amen. Well, obviously, you're not an exorcist, and for the fans, right, you are unabashedly Catholic, because I know we're going to get into some ecumenical topics, but as someone who has worked with this charismatic renewal and seeing God move,

for those right now who are like, look, I believe intellectually in Christianity, I believe in it from a systematic standpoint. It's the best thing I have to explain the universe. But the idea that there's a God who is actively involved and doing stuff, stuff that I might even be able to witness and see, maybe you could speak from personal experience, just some of the things that you've witnessed and give people hope that, hey, like there is a Holy Spirit that is out there and is actually working in your life in active ways

and you just got to carve out space for it. No, absolutely. You know, we were there at the very beginning of the Catholic charismatic renewal and amazing things happened for the first 10 years or so. It was a little bit like a revival. Things were just kind of happening. Here in Ann Arbor, people would just kind of be walking down the street, and they'd meet somebody and they'd invite them to a prayer meeting and they'd get converted on the spot,

they'd hear a word that somebody speaks or they'd hear inspired music and they'd just be touched and repent, you know, sometimes there'd be words of knowledge that the Lord would show people to somebody here who's living an active sinful lifestyle and would name what it was and the person would stand up saying, that's me, I want to turn away from it. Other times we had all kinds of people coming from meals and the food would just keep multiplying. You can't see it multiplying, but it never runs out. No, that's how they describe it. They say, look, it never runs out. And the joke was it was always like pasta or crackers or something. It was never a tri-tip or the ribs. Can you walk through that experience maybe for someone who's like, wait, you've experienced food multiplying? Yes, like we're in one

of the old ramshackle houses in downtown Ann Arbor in the student quarter. And pretty soon we had 300 people coming to a prayer meeting at the Catholic Student Center. And then we'd invite people for a meal afterwards. And it was never like, how many people are we going to expect? How much food should we buy? It's more like, this is the food we have. Let's cook it and see how much it lasts type of thing. And so quite honestly, I have seen, you know, a bowl of, yeah, pasta or something like that, maybe a couple bowls, you know, and people going down a buffet line.

And I would say hundreds of people, there was no way there was enough food for them. But you could just keep dishing it out and it was there. And I don't think that's normal, but during a time of particular outpouring of the Holy Spirit, you see more of these things. Like, we see more of these things in many of the countries we go to. I'm not an exorcist, but I have prayed for many, many people to be delivered from the power of evil spirits. And I've seen pretty amazing things. Like in our country coordinators who work in these different countries, you see amazing things. Like, one time one of our guys was praying for somebody, and a big black state came out of his mouth.

All right, hold up, hold up. Stop the press here. So this wasn't you. One of your team members was praying for someone. Yeah, Tom Edwards. He was in Africa. He was in Tanzania. And sometimes in Africa gets pretty wild, you know, and you see a lot of manifestations because people are still going to witch doctors. People are still afraid of curses that are being put on them. People are tempted to protect themselves against evil spirits by invoking evil spirits, you know, to protect them. type of thing. So there are a lot of people who, even though they're Catholic or Christian, particularly with Catholics, they've been told by the missionaries, these things don't really exist type of thing and don't be afraid, but they're afraid, and they know they need power to protect themselves. So that's why the Catholic charismatic renewal is so important in Africa. It's really shown Catholics that they don't need to go to witch doctors, that the power of Jesus Christ is sufficient to overcome every assault of the enemy. And oftentimes when we're doing big rallies there, we do them for 20,000, 25,000 people,

people will bring up these objects that they've used to kind of invoke evil spirits, and they burn them, and they turn away from them, and they repent. And it's really beautiful, but it's really shocking how much the enemy has come into the lives of even people who want to live a Christian life, but they really need help, really coming under the Lordship of Christ and really believing that Jesus is the Lord. since we're talking about doing missions work in Africa, et cetera, if you were to just take someone over there and tell them, oh, no, no, no, there's no evil spirits or whatever. Would they look at you like you're crazy? No, they would. I mean, they're living in fear. They see it. They see it in

their family. They see people getting sick because people put curses on them. They see people dying. They see people not being able to conceive babies. And these are all curses that people put on each other, you know, and they know they need to be delivered from that power. It really brings the verse to mind, my people perish for lack of knowledge. And it's got to be heartbreaking to think, like, it's not just Africa, it's South America. I mean, it seems like it's only the U.S., Australia, Canada, and Western Europe that has agreed that the enemy is a metaphor. I remember even in Iceland when I was there, they were talking about how real elves were. I don't speak for everyone in Iceland, but we had several people who were very smart and very intelligent, who adamantly warned us about the elves and the rocks.

Well, you know, here in the United States, it's interesting to ask, why don't we see some of the same things happening here that we see happening in these countries? Is it because evil spirits are less active? I don't think they are. So there's two things that I think, and I think this is an incomplete picture. You know, Father Carlos has a bigger picture. But we oftentimes pray with people using the method that Neil Lozano has come up with called Unbound. And what we find out is that many, many people are blocked or held. back or held captive by lies that they've been told, by trauma that they've experienced, by things that their parents have said to them or done to them, by abuse they've experienced,

by rejection of their experience. And they're not able to really live in the freedom of the sons and daughters of God because these things are still binding them. And so there's human trauma, but there's often also demons who take advantage of this, who say, yeah, I'm going to latch on to that, her, I'm going to latch on to that unforgiveness. I'm going to really harden that person's heart. Many, many people have made what Neil Lozano calls vows.

Like, I can never forgive that person. And they just lock themselves into unforgiveness. So this very simple method that Neil Lozano in this book Unbound talks about, we pray with people all the time. And most people have issues like this in their life. And they really benefit a lot from surfacing lives that they've been told, lives that they believe, unforgiveness in their hearts. And they can really experience, you know, considerable freedom.

You know, they need to cooperate. the need to be faithful going forward. The other thing I think where Satan is really working in the Western developed countries is through deception, is who lies about who God is, about who we are, about what really matters, about whether hell exists or not, whether sin is really sin. So my own ministry is particularly focused on delivering people from deception that keeps them from a wholehearted following of Christ. like in 2, Thessalonians chapter 2, when Paul talks about two things that need to happen before the Lord returns, he talks about the great apostasy, which is certainly we're seeing a great apostasy right now in the traditional Western countries.

People are massively turning away from the Lord. And the second thing he mentions is the removal of the restrainer on the work of the evil one with the eventual appearance of the Antichrist. And then it talks about how the Antichrist is going to deceive people through false signs and words. wonders by spectacular things that aren't really coming from God that don't lead people to faith or repentance, but lead people to marvel at somebody, to put their trust in somebody who is not a true servant of God. And eventually it's going to be the Antichrist himself. But then it says, through every deception that the enemy can use so that those who are destined to perish will perish. Well, when I first read that, I said, wait a second, who's dead?

to perish. Well, we know that God wants everybody to be saved. You know, First Timothy Chapter 2, God wills that the whole human race be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, but it says, those destined to perish because they refuse to open their hearts to the truth and be saved. So Jesus says, the truth will set you free. So my own particular emphasis in ministry is the truth, the clarity and the power of God's word that will set people free from the deception that keeps them from actually believing in and following Christ. And then the last sentence there says, because they harden their hearts to the truth, God sent upon them a deep delusion so that they may be condemned. Now, this is shocking too. It really is. Most biblical scholars

will say, God isn't actually sending it, but he's saying that people who close their hearts to the truth are going to experience a darkness and a hardness of heart that comes close to the sin against the Holy Spirit. They're so sealing themselves off from the light of God that they pretty much consign themselves to darkness. Now, we should never give up hope for anybody. We should never presume that somebody's in that condition. But there's a very serious war going on that doesn't just manifest itself in the kind of demonic things we're talking about, but in the strongholds that Satan creates in people's minds. And I think the powerful preaching and teaching of the gospel, the Bible, is what's really needed to deliver people from demonic deception.

Amen. Father Martin's here. I want to do a quick plug for one of the most powerful tools I've seen for breaking free and growing closer to Christ. Exodus 90. The Exodus 90 challenge begins this year on January 20th, but this isn't just a 90-day program. Exodus 90 is a spirituality for modern men that is built on three ancient pillars, prayer, self-sacrifice, and fraternity. We all long for something more. We long to be the men God created us to be, sons of a loving father. It's time to turn away from our idols. It's time to break free from the pharaohs that hold us in bondage. If you're ready to make a fresh start and embark on a journey to uncommon freedom in Jesus Christ, then download the Exodus 90 app today.

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God bless you. Well, I want to come back to Lozano and some of the deliverance there, but since we're on eschatology, and I know this is a subject that's of interest to a lot of our listeners, and obviously Jesus says, you know not the day or the hour, so I don't think anyone has an absolute claim of how this is all going to unfold. but based on your reading of the scriptures, what is your best guess for conceptually how this might roll out? There will be an end time, right? There will be a day of the Lord. What does scripture

teach us right now about what's going to happen? Now, I've written a book called A Church in Crisis Pathways Forward, and I have a whole chapter on the prophetic word. I have a whole chapter on end times. Now, what the Catholic Church teaches about this is what the Bible teaches about it. And read you just a few of the things that the catechus and the Catholic Church says. Before Christ's second coming, the church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers, the great apostasy. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the mystery of iniquity in the form of a religious deception, offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious

deception is that of the Antichrist, of pseudo-Messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God, and of his Messiah come in the flesh. Now, that's what's happening in our culture. Man is glorifying himself in the place of God. Man is exalting his thoughts, his desires, his opinion about what's right, what's true, what's real, over God. So this is a very profound rebellion. You know, it talks about Romans chapter one that they're without excuse. God reveals something of himself through creation. God reveals something himself through the instinct of conscience for right and wrong. But they suppress the truth. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and they worship the creature rather than the creator. So what's going on right now is the human race is proudly

worshiping itself. It says as a consequence of that, God turned them over to their own disordered desires. Then it talks about all those sexual disorder. It talks about homosexuality. It talks about hatred. It talks about breaking a family relationships. So we're actually living Romans 1. But we're living Romans 1 in light of the return of the Lord and the final judgment. So what does the Catholic Church? What does the Bible teach? It says at a certain point, there's going to be the great apostasy, because that's what it says in Second Thessalonius Chapter 2. There's going to be removal of the restraint, things that are holding back evil. And then we're going to see massive turning away from the Lord, massive exhumated.

of the creature over the creator. And then at a certain point, when evil reaches its rightness, when the Lord has decided that enough time has been given for people to repent, that enough grace has been given, enough signs have been given. And there's all these kinds of signs we've been talking about today. The Lord is giving signs that he is the Lord, that he is alive, that he is real. And his word is true. And he's going to return in glory to judge the living and the dead.

the creed that all Christian churches by and large have believed for 2,000 years ends by saying he'll come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, the Nicene Creed. And so the whole story isn't over until the Lord returns and he will return. He will return visibly, personally, unmistakably. And like it says in Hebrews chapter 9, the first time he came as a sacrificial lamb to take away the sins of the world. The second time he's coming not to take away sins, that time has come to an end, but to bring the fullness of salvation to those who await him. We both are aware of the whole left behind vibe, but I've heard a lot of different explanatory frameworks for how this could go. But one is demons masquerading as aliens could create some entity that would inspire unity around the world to move away from Christianity and unite around one world government or an extraterrestrial entity.

Or even I've heard AI as an example of some sort of like, digital conscience. But is it a correct interpretation, though, that the world will depart from the church and mass and will actually unite around some figure that will inspire? Are we to expect something or a group of people that will sort of take the claim of being something that should be worshiped? Or is that from just the left behind series? No. Well, the mainstream figures in the Catholic Church have interpreted these texts over the centuries is that these things, things happen together, that there isn't like rapture of the saints to take them away before the great tribulation, there isn't a thousand years of peace on earth, and then the Lord returns.

But these things happen together at the end of the age of the church, at the end of the time where the gospels were preached sufficiently to all the nations, at the end of when God has dealt with Israel, the Lord's going to return. And the sequence of events is just like the scripture says. those who have died in Christ are going to rise first. Those who are still alive on the earth who are Christians, are they going to meet him in the air? Now the question is, are these metaphors?

There's this literally what's going to happen? And quite honestly, nobody knows. We're only going to know when it happens. We're only going to know how to take these images when they happen. But they're going to happen. And just because their metaphors doesn't mean there aren't seriously communications of truth. And then there's going to be the final judgment. Like John Chapter 5 says,

there's going to be the resurrection of the saved, but it's also going to be the resurrection of the damned. There's going to be those who rise to glory and those who rise to condemnation. The scripture is so clear, there's going to be a separation of the human race. And the sequence of events that we believe the scripture indicates that the Catholic Church teaches in this catechism is that these events come together. You know, the Lord returns, resurrection of the dead, the saved and the lost, final judgment, condemnation. before the Lord returns, there's going to be the appearance of the Antichrist.

It's going to be the great apostasy. It's going to be the rise of evil. And it very well could be a world government. Very well could you be a deception of artificial intelligence that is masquerading as somebody, but it's demons. It very well could be any of those things. We just don't know. Every time Scripture says nobody knows the day or the hour, when Jesus specifically talks about it, he says, nevertheless, be alert.

So we need to be so ground. in the truth of God's word. We need to be in such intimate relationship with him that we've gotten accustomed to hearing the voice to the Lord that when we hear a voice that isn't the voice of the Lord, we're going to say, wait a second, that doesn't sound like the Lord. Or when we hear something that isn't true, we've got to say, no, no, that's not what Jesus says. For a Catholic, no, no, no, that's not what the church teaches, you know? So we've got to be really prepared for a tremendous onslaught of evil, a tremendous turning away from faith. Members of the same family now. So many Christian families are experiencing the pain of sons or daughters not falling in the

footsteps of their parents or some children, yes, some children know. There's so much division of families. But Jesus says there's going to be division of families. Luke chapter 12, he says, I haven't come to bring peace. I've come to bring a sword. There's going to be division between parents and children between mothers and laws and daughters and laws. And you're not worthy to be my disciple, unless you love me more than even the closest relationships you have. And when it comes to a choice between the closest relationships you have and me, you need to choose me. You need to know that I'm the Lord and that your only hope is to be faithful to me.

So this is tough because there's a lot of Catholics, a lot of preachers, they are being challenged because they've sort of made an idol out of their family relationships. And they really haven't put Jesus first in their life. Yeah. And real quick, sometimes when I read the apostles, or read even just Paul's letters, it seems like they were convinced the end was very close. Is that a fair reading?

Well, I would say that Jesus did say he's returning soon. But in the second letter of Peter, Peter says, look, you can't impose our human experience of space and time on eternal God. And for the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, a thousand years is like one day. So one way of counting, it's only been two days since. the Lord said he's going to return. But don't forget this.

There is going to be judgment. There's already been judgment in history. There's already been the flood. There's already been Sodom and Gomor. You know, Jesus even talked about the judgment of Jerusalem. One of the most shocking things is Jesus is weeping over his own city because he knows that destruction is coming because they've rejected him. And the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is one of the most horrific things that's ever

happened, the Jewish historian Josephus writes a daily account of what's going on. He was the interpreter for the Roman general that was carrying out the assault on Jerusalem. And it's just awful. And they say maybe a million people died. So judgment is coming. There's going to be consequences for the rejection of Jesus. There's going to be consequences for exalting the creature over the creator. And so Peter says, look, it's going to happen. The Lord is not late. He's just waiting for repentance. He's extending mercy, but that time's going to come to an end. Then he talks about the earth and all the elements are going to burn up like fire. It's going to be a new heaven and a new earth where justice of God resides.

This is what the catechism says. I should have given the reference, it's the catechism, section 675, 676 and 677. So, yeah, this is real stuff. Jesus is real. His word is important. It's going to come to pass. Yeah, all right. No rapture.

and anyone who doubts that a day or a thousand years in the relativity of time has not spent a day at the DMV because that can be a thousand years as well. So I understand what Peter's saying there. I want to come back to, because you mentioned obviously praying for people for deliverance, and sometimes those terms can be interchanged, you know, and obviously an exorcism, like we've documented on the show with these case vials, radically different. But there is some debate. Some of our fans will write and say, well, I don't know. I'm not comfortable with the idea of Christians' praying for deliverance from evil spirits for others. But maybe you could walk us through some of this

because we are called to pray for each other. And it seems that you can't separate a lot of the bondage that many of us experience from demonagus, albeit overt or just the culture and et cetera. So maybe you could walk a little bit through how that actually plays out and what maybe even practical guidelines you would give your team

when you're just praying for someone and you sense there might even be something spiritual going on. Yeah. Well, the Catholic Church actually has a formal right of exorcism. You know, you can see it in the movies, but it's real. It exists that people do it. In fact, the new Archbishop of Milwaukee, Archbishop Jeffrey Grob, who used to be an assistant bishop in Chicago, he was the official exorcist for the Archdiocese of Chicago. Most dioceses have official exorcists, and what they say is that they're busier than ever.

there's been an upsurge of demonic influence in people's lives. But they also say that you need to be careful not to call somebody possessed until you really discern whether that's the case or not. And the right of exorcism is reserved for the most serious cases of possession. So the Catholic priest who are exorcists would say, well, you need to make sure we're not just talking about a psychological problem here. We're not talking about oppression. We're not talking about harassment of evil spirits. talking about just unforgiveness or something like that. So outside of a formal exorcism that deals with somebody who's actually possessed by an evil spirit, there's all kinds of lesser influences

of evil spirits in people's lives that very well can be taken care of by people who aren't the official exorcist. Dr. Mary Healy, who works with me at Sacred Heart Seminary, has written a lot about healing and deliverance. She's just been appointed to the Pontific or Biblical Commission in Rome. She's just been appointed to the castry for liturgy and the sacraments. And so the Catholic Church is recognizing it as a big realm that ordinary Catholic laypeople can do to kind of pray for people to be delivered from the influence of evil spirit short of possession. And so that's what Neil Oslo has been such a pioneer in. A lot of people are used to dramatic portrayals of exorcism, which I know is one of your specialties. Yeah. But there's a lot of less dramatic situations, but there's real demonic influence that can be held by ordinary people praying for them. And that's what Nilsonso's developed in his method. He calls it five keys, you know.

I want to get into that. But just since obviously you're an academic and know your scripture and know your truth. Before I was at academic, I was an ordinary person. I still am. There you go. Okay. So because I think actually we mentioned on the show, and I think it's Mark 9, 38, and 138. But there are several verses that do call out the reality that people outside the direct circle of the apostles are casting out demons. And then it seems like, in part of the commission to go out, that it seems like if you're a Christian believer, you are given this authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and cast out demons. And I think the 72 also came back rejoicing that they were able to do this. And obviously, Father will quickly distinguish there's a difference between having the authority and ability to do something. and whether you should run off and do that.

But does the Catholic Church teach and recognize that anyone baptized in Christ can pray for people for deliverance? If there's something more serious, you refer it on, how does that kind of play out? I would say there's a certain kind of continuum or range here. Like, parents need to be able to pray for their children to protect them from the assault of evil spirits. And they should do that. So everybody has a certain sort of sphere of authority, so to speak. and responsibility. But that same parent may not be equipped to deal with a neighbor who's experiencing something like that. You may need to go to a team that's been prepared at your parish

who's been trained to how to pray for people. So it depends on your sphere of responsibility, your sphere of authority, and training. Not anybody should just hang out a shingle saying, hey, I'll pray for deliverance for you. But there should be some training, some accountability, some supervision. So things kind of get a little out of hand, sometimes a little bit of wild and woolly people seeing demons who there aren't demons and shouting at demons when that isn't really what's needed to get rid of them and things like that. You know, so there needs to be a little training, a little accountability. And fortunately, that's happening in a lot of dioceses, the dioces of Lincoln, Nebraska,

the guy in charge of catechatics and everything has all kinds of teams. He's trained to pray for deliverance and things like that. That's great. And maybe you could walk us through Lazzano. You mentioned the five peas because I know, obviously, you know, and there's an amount of discernment, I imagine that goes into this. And also, I imagine a lot of it's unexpected. You might pray for someone who thinks, I'm just asking for prayer for this thing through that prayer, suddenly something else becomes evident and there's breakthroughs that need to happen. And you can't predict

when a critter might be exposed, right? Yeah. Well, there's different ways of doing it. But like, when we do it here in Ann Arbor, we'll kind of scream the person. We'll find out why they want to be praying with for deliverance. We have a great couple here in town, John and Michelle Cassanchion, who have led this ministry in the area for a long time. And you'll talk to the person, you'll find out maybe this person could benefit for some prayer. There could be some stuff there of what they're experiencing. So then you'll get together with them and you'll begin the session. Usually two people. We usually don't have one person by themselves praying, but we have like the main person. Then we have somebody who's an intercessor who's there

praying for God to give guidance to everybody concerned type of thing and just as a little check and a little other input for discernment about what's going on. So you'll ask the person to tell you their story. You'll listen and you'll try to kind of ask the Holy Spirit to help you say, hmm, what they just said there about what happened to them with their siblings, that we need to open that up a little bit more. So you're looking for the help of the Holy Spirit to help you notice things in their story that you think could be really useful for freeing them from the symptoms that they've just told you about. And then you'll talk about how we need the power of Jesus.

You know, it's not me. It's the Lord. It's the Holy Spirit. So you need to try to lead them into reaffirming their commitment to Christ. We wouldn't pray with somebody unless they've actually done that in some way, but they need to renew their commitment to the Lord and submit themselves to Christ and his truth, his word, of spirit. And then we'll maybe try to identify things they need to renounce. You know, maybe they bought a lie. They need to say, no, I renounce that lie or no, I will forgive this person. Lord,

give me the help to forgive. Just so whatever they need to do to kind of say no to something they've allowed into their life, that you might say it's just a human experience, but oftentimes it's just a human experience that's been pushed into them through a demon or made worse through a demon. And so you don't even decide what's the demon, what's the human experience, what's the sin, what's the foolishness. You just need to kind of have the person renounce it and whatever combination of things it is in their life, it takes care of it. And then you need to get them to reject the evil spirits that renounce you in the name of the Lord Jesus. They need to not just be a passive recipient of somebody else's prayer, but they need to actually take responsibility themselves for

doing it for resisting it. And that's equipping them to use these same tools going forward in their life because the devil's not going to leave them alone. They may have a new level of freedom in their life, but they can get back into slavery, just like Jesus says, the house is cleaned out and they can come back. So they need to practice proper spiritual hygiene. They need to learn how to recognize when a temptation is coming and to reject it immediately. They need to learn how avoid those circumstances and situations that led them into bondage type of thing. So it's a combination of human wisdom and spiritual discernment. And then we pray for people for what Neil LaZanical is the Father's blessing.

Strengthen them, bless them, assure them with God's love, assure them of the power of Christ in their life and their ability going forward to resist this evil type of thing. Wow. Do you have a particular story or anything that you remember as far as someone getting immense breakthrough? It sounds like you deal with a lot of unforgiveness, but for those needing a little encouragement that they felt beat up or kind of ensnared by something, any particular stories of some breakthrough prayer that led to a radical change? So many people have been told things about themselves by other people that have completely kept them in monished the whole life. Like a parent said, you'll never amount to anything. and identifying that and coming against the curse of it.

It's almost like a parent put a curse on a child, not intending to put a curse, but foolishly saying you'll never amount to anything or you're worthless. And just really recognizing that as a lie and rejecting a lie has really brought an incredible amount of freedom to people. And so many people have said things to other people or had things said to themselves that affect them their whole lifelong.

and identifying those things and renouncing them and affirming the truth that, no, God loves me, he created me. The Lord has a plan for my life. He's a future for me, full of hope like the Prophet Jeremiah says. Restoring hope, restoring confidence is very powerful and very important. And it's very tragic, very sad to hear the things that people have been told by other people that have just completely kept them in bondage. One thing I'm always curious about is, you know, we tend to focus on tumors disappearing or the dead raising, which I'm also fascinated, like stories of people who maybe had severe addictions or, like you mentioned, just major animosity, right, and then suddenly found a piece afterwards, et cetera. And obviously we know a lot

of times things are not one and done, especially if it's been built up for years, et cetera, but could you speak to that? Any hope for people who might be feeling a little hopeless about this? Yeah, well, sometimes it is one and done, but all. Oftentimes they need to keep fighting a battle to keep the freedom that they got in that particular prayer session. Remember when the disciples came back telling Jesus, it's really cool. The demons were subject to us. And Jesus said, don't rejoice in that. Rejoice even more that your names are written in heaven.

So I always try to keep a balance here. The most important thing is salvation. The most important thing isn't whether people get healed, heal on earth or not. The most important thing is that people die in friendship with the Lord and end up in heaven rather than hell. So I sometimes talk to people who are really geeked up about healing and delivering saying, it's good, it's merciful, it's a wonderful thing that Jesus does. But remember, the most important thing that Jesus does is forgive sin. The most important thing that Jesus does is deliver people from the power of the devil and death. And Jesus says, He who perseveres to the end will be saved.

So we need to set people up, not just for a one-time thing, but we need to set people up on a path to obedience, to discipleship, to growing in holiness, to filling the mind with the Word of God, and getting involved with other Christians who can support them, and they can be an environment of faith and hope and love. I do feel like sometimes people get fascinated with healing and deliverance, but they need to be even more fascinated with the fact that there's going to be a judgment, and people are going to end up in heaven or hell. And the most important thing, isn't that the demons are subject to us, the most important thing, is that our names be written in the book life in heaven. And Jesus told us that. He says, let's keep perspective here. That's good. I told you to do

that. I'm glad it's happening. But the most important thing is people's names are written in heaven. I'm curious because you've mentioned several times, you know, listening to the Holy Spirit, etc. Dr. Healy was on the show and mentioned it. She's like, it's going to sound a little tripe, but she's like, it's true. God sounds a lot like my thoughts. And I'm curious for those who are saying, I don't know if I hear from God and we know God speaks in many different ways. And he speaks in a way that's unique to you and get your attention. But for those saying, I want to hear more clearly from God, could you walk us a little bit through about what you think scripture teaches on this, and then maybe in your own life how God has spoken to you? Well, I think, again, there's a continuum.

You know, Jesus says, I know my own, my own know me, they know my voice. And so I think there's just getting to know Jesus aspect of the whole thing. And getting to know Jesus through regular personal prayer, getting to know Jesus by meditation of his word, and just getting used to what Jesus says and what he sounds like and what his message is, which kind of puts you in a good position to discern the thoughts that come into your mind. Now, Jesus says the Holy Spirit's going to lead us into the whole truth. The Holy Spirit is going to remind us of things that Jesus says. And so people should expect that that will happen. But again, it isn't necessarily at this point. point, charism or prophecy. It's a basic function of the Holy Spirit to remind us. So if we don't know

something to begin with, there's nothing for him to remind us about. So we need to know the Word of God. So we see in Acts chapter 10, Peter is astounded because the Gentiles are receiving the Holy Spirit. And he says, what's going on here? Like what? You know, this is against my religion. Gentiles aren't supposed to. And then he says, I remembered what the Lord Jesus said in Acts 11, that you'll be baptized in the Holy Spirit. And so he says, this is what's happening. They're getting baptized in the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit recall to me the words of Jesus. So these are really important things. So this isn't just prophecy or whatever, or words of knowledge, words of wisdom. It's the Holy Spirit, bringing up in us what we've been put into, what's been put into us and reminding us.

Now, besides that, there's word of knowledge, word of wisdom. There's particular lights that the Holy Spirit gives us from time to time, helping us to see something or understand something. And I think as people grow in the spiritual life, this should happen quite a bit. Every day when I'm meditating on the daily readings, you know, in the Catholic Mass, which is the Bible, by the way. You know, something from the epistles, something from the Gospels, maybe something from the Old Testament.

And almost every day I do it in connection with my daily prayer time. And as I slowly just read, very often something gets illuminated for me, very often, I'll say, wow, I never noticed that before. That's a really important insight. So I feel like I'm growing in taking it on the mind of Christ. just through a very simple daily prayer, daily meditating on scripture. Now, apart from that, there is prophetic words. There is sort of like higher level manifestations of these gifts

that aren't just for us but are for a wider group of people. And Paul does say, when you come together, let each one prophesy. He does say in 1st Corinthians chapter 14, yes, make love your aim, but desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. So one of the things that saddens me about what's going on in the Catholic Church today is that people are saying, well, they're charismatic, but that's not my spirituality. Or other people are saying, well, I'm traditionalist and I just like quiet prayer. And I just feel like how foolish it is to separate all the workings of the Holy Spirit. You know, what we see in the Bible is we see silent prayer.

You know, be still and know that I am God. We see a half hour of silence in heaven when the scroll is open. But we also see, make a joyful noise to the Lord. Play your instruments loudly. Sing before the Lord. And we see in heaven the same kind of thing. So I just wish my fellow Catholics would stop separating this thing into contemplative prayer and charismatic prayer and choose your flavor. the flavor is the flavor of the Holy Spirit.

We should desire all the workers of the Holy Spirit. I'm curious, when you need to make a big decision, how do you go about doing that from a spiritual standpoint? Well, you should always open up the decision to the Lord. You should never think that just on your own wisdom or your own worldly understanding of situations, that that's going to be enough. Now, a lot of times the decisions are low-level decisions

and the Lord doesn't have anything particular to guide us on that. It's up to us type of thing. But anyway, like where I can know where I'm in a door dash from, I don't need to subject that to contemplative prayer. Yeah, yeah. We should want to have our whole life open to the Holy Spirit. We should never not be trying to listen, never not trying to be in communication with the Lord.

But there's a lot of simple decisions that he's leaving that up to us. But any important decision, you know, should I move, should I get married, Should I give this money away? Should I go to this person and tell them what I think I should say? Any more higher level decision, we should definitely be thinking about it, talking about pros and cons, doing any relevant research, but not leaving out the Lord and letting the Lord know that we really want to be in the place he wants us to be. We really want to do his will.

and we really like him to let us know if he has an opinion on these things that he wants to share with us, you know? And so I think that's really important. So how do you know that you're hearing from the Lord? Well, eventually as you sort things out, as you think things out, as you talk things out, eventually a sense of peace arise for a certain direction

and for a certain decision. You just kind of say, yeah, I think this is where the Lord is nudging me. Very seldom is it like a thunderbolt or an audible voice or even an interior voice. Most often it's like, yeah, I have a sense of peace here about this being the direction for me. Now, every now and then, the Lord does something pretty special. I just said something special happened to me a few weeks ago. Oh, breaking news.

Let's hear it. Is this an X-Files exclusive? Well, for me, it's like that. But I was asked to give 10 talks to all the seminarians and the Archdiocese in Milwaukee Seminary. And we were at our retreat house in Barrington, Illinois. And when I have a chance to give 10 talks, I really like that because I can cover a lot of stuff I really feel like people need to know and that are really good stuff, you know. but my last talk I was going to give on our lady of Fatima, her apparitions at Fatima. Okay.

Okay. So I feel like I want to talk about that and I'm praying in the morning the last day of the retreat. And I felt like there was a very special communication like the light that just came into my soul. And I felt like the Lord told me some of the things that people were going to hear. in this talk this morning, are going to make the difference between heaven and hell and the lives of people. And I felt like, wow, that is so encouraging, Lord. Now, what I guessed about what was going to happen is that one of the things that Mary said in Fatima, to these three little children in 1917, she said, so many souls are going to hell because so few people are praying

and offering sacrifice for the salvation of souls. So I'm just guessing that when I shared that, with these seminarians, some of them are going to really take that to heart, and we're going to start praying and sacrificing for the salvation of souls. It was really a special light that I felt like God gave me, like an unusual encouragement that what you hope is happening through your preaching and teaching is going to happen. The souls are going to be saved.

That's amazing. In your book, you write about you had the privilege of getting to interact with John Wimber, Paul Kane, Bill Hammond. There were some big names that were in the big early 90s prophetic movement. I had friends who knew, and unfortunately, one of them had some stuff obviously going on in their personal life. But they will attest and say that they were in the room with Paul and John at various times and saw stuff that would make you think the Book of Acts is happening right now. Absolutely. Absolutely. Really.

we did intersect with them in an amazing way. When John Wimber wanted to go to Poland, he wanted to go with a Catholic because Poland is so Catholic and had a meeting of pastors and about half Catholic priests, half Protestant pastors. And so he invited me and Peter Herbeck, who works with me to go, and pretty amazing what we saw there.

He asked for this anointing of the Holy Spirit to come on all the pastors present. And he asked that the Lord, give them a sign that he was really doing that, that oil would appear on the palms of their hands. And all over the auditorium, oil was appearing on the palms of the Catholic and the Protestant pastors and other things like that. There's the ordinary things that the ordinary Catholic could expect to happen, which we've been talking about, like just part of a fervent Catholic life. But there are some people who have been raised up in the body with special gifts that everybody

won't experience. And those people you named had really special gifts, pretty amazing special gifts. So thanks me to God. And this is a little bit like Paul says at 1st Corinthians 12. Are all prophets or all apostles or all healers or all miracle workers? No, they're not all. But there are some people that God raises up, Ephesians chapter 4. It says the ascended Christ will give leadership gifts to their church, apostles, and prophets. Pastors and evangelists, not to do the whole work of the church, but to equip the saints for the work of ministry to enable the baptized,

to really enter into what it really means to be a baptized Christian. Yeah, I remember John Wimber, it was so flippantly casual about it, too. He was just doing the stuff, and he just loved that. And Paul Kane was known for also these incredible words of knowledge where I mean, he would, I had a friend tell me a story where he held up a service and said, we're waiting for someone named Maria,

and no one was there and called it out and said, Maria, why are you? And he's like, we're not starting until there's Maria. And then like 20 minutes later. And I mean, the amount of like confidence in the Lord to just sit there. And then the door opened. And this woman came running in and he's like, Maria, hey, we've been praying for you. Come on up. And just whispered something in here. And she broke down in tears. And he had a word for her. And I thought, I don't know if I'd have the faith to hold up a meeting, be like, all right, we're going to wait. The person's not even here yet to get their word. That's wild. Yeah. I and others with me have experienced.

some words of Vulcane for us that have been very significant in certain times in our life. So, yeah. And now many Catholics have scandalized that God could be working outside the Catholic Church, but he is. Oh, yeah. Well, it's an actor. Father brings up the centurion example there, too, where you have a Roman centurion who's like, hey, like, I don't even come under my roof.

And Jesus, and I love how Father said this, like, Jesus was astounded at the faith of a centurion and told them, like, y'all, this guy is the. one who has it down. Yeah. God is so good. He's giving so many gifts to his people. He's pouring out his Holy Spirit so abundantly. We just started to get more people to open up to it and surrender to it, surrender to him. Yeah, be following him. So obviously, you know, you're humbly Catholic, etc., and you've worked with Protestant, and you've seen the Holy Spirit operate in powerful ways. And I don't know what the correct way to characterize that, but would you just say that anywhere that Christ's gospel is preached in the baptism for the repentance of sins and belief in the son of God,

that God just backs up that play. And that's the best way to think about is that God's like, look, my first priority, yes. And assuming Catholicism is the correct way, if you want to call it that, sure, God would desire everyone to have the fullness of the truth and whatever expression that is. But would you all say, hey, look, the end of day, though, I'm about people knowing my son repenting of their sins. And anyone who's doing that, you got my full endorsement. And I'm helping out with that. Yeah, I would say that that's obviously the case. Now, whether anybody has the full endorsement of the Lord or not, I don't know, because all of us have strengths and weaknesses. So he's certainly blessing the preaching of the gospel. I know he loves our show. It's two thumbs up,

he said, for our show. It's the best spiritual warfare podcast around, he said. Well, that's good. Yeah, and I'm glad to be on it with you because we're a tremendous spiritual battle, and Jesus tells us the whole world is under the power of the evil one, and we're kind of fools if we don't recognize that. Jesus says, resist the devil, and he'll flee from you. You know, the apostle says that. So people who don't know they're in a spiritual fight are probably been already been captured by the enemy. They've probably already been enlisted into his army and don't even realize it. And the things that they're spouting, the things that they're repeating from the culture are lies of the devil, and they don't even realize it. So people need to be delivered from the deception

they're in, they need to be awoken to the fact that there is a spiritual war going on. Jesus is doing combat. He came to destroy the works of the devil. They came to cast them out. And that's why exorcism was such an important part of his ministry. That's why spiritual warfare really needs to be part of our ministry today too. And everybody's in indigenous life that need to recognize the voice of the serpent when it comes into their mind and reject it and renounce it. Amen. Before I forget to, just closing the gap on Paul and John, did you have ever word that someone called out something like a true word of knowledge that the apostle paul talks about where you go there's no way this person could have known this about and not the usual god loves you or someone

hurt you and you're like good guess you know i think there's a lot of sloppiness and how the word of knowledge is being presented sometimes i think people kind of know it's cool and they kind of like just kind of keep speaking stuff out like is people here who have cancer getting healed that type of thing. And maybe, maybe not. I think sometimes it's sort of like somebody who's hoping that God's going to do something and they're not really getting it from God, but they're kind of generating it. But from time to time, this pretty extraordinary words of knowledge that are verified right there on the spot, no question about it, you know. I've seen people stand up and say, there's no way anybody could know this. And yes, that man is me, you know, the type of thing.

I imagine everyone wants to experience these gifts, but I thought, if you have this mighty move of God, it would also make it really frustrating when you're going through something and you don't have that. And it seems like he's be more interested in your endurance and pressing on in faith and not chasing those gifts. And also, I imagine the more dramatic the word, probably the more it was dramatic for requirements, and that may not be something you want to hear. Yeah, right, right, right. as we kind of land the plane here, sir, I wanted to ask you in your book, you mentioned that you've got to work with so many amazing people from all different kind of Christian backgrounds,

and you've been accused of being a little too Protestant as a Catholic, and I thought that's so interesting, but maybe you could speak to, what do you wish Protestants could know about the Catholic Church and its fullness of it? Like, what do you think that they're, in a respectful way, just missing, and you just empathizing moment? hey, I wish you knew this. Let's face it, the Catholic Church has had a lot of terrible things in its history. It has a lot of terrible things today. There's a lot of infidelity.

There's a lot of lukewarmness. There's a lot of even church leaders who are spouting lies about the Word of God. So we got a lot of problems. That's why I wrote that book, The Church in Crisis, trying to identify the crisis in the Catholic Church about departure from the truth, you know. But when all of a sudden none, The Catholic Church is the only church I know of that has kept faithful to divine revelation in all the areas that our culture is now attacking.

So on the books, we teach and believe what Jesus taught about marriage. We believe and teach what Jesus taught about sexuality. We believe and teach what Jesus taught about murdering. And so the fullness of revelation is there on the books. It's there in the catechism in the Catholic Church. and we've faithfully been passing it on from century to century. And so if you're looking for where to find the whole range of divine revelation as the church has understood at all these centuries, again, up until the 15th century, everybody believed

it. And so I'm a Catholic because I believe that the fullness of the means of salvation, the greatest fidelity to divine revelation, has been carried on over the centuries, has been carried in the Catholic Church at the same time. It hasn't always lived it. It hasn't always presented it adequately. It hasn't already made clear that Jesus Christ is the heart of everything. So, yes, sometimes people feel like I sound like a Protestant, but the Archbishop of Detroit feels like I'm doing okay.

The Bishop of Lansing feels like I'm doing okay. All kinds of cardinals and other bishops are cheering me on. And all we're trying to do is just stay in the very center. We don't want to be left or right. We just want to be the center of the gospel. We just want to have Jesus at the center. We just want to try to hear everything he's revealing to us, everything he's saying. We don't want to pick and choose.

We want it all type of thing. So that's what we're trying to do. And I think there's a lot of people that when they hear that and see that, say, yeah, that's what we've got to do. We've got to stay in the center of divine revelation. We've got to be under the Lordships of Christ. We've got to believe every word that Jesus spoke. We've got to believe in the inspiration and errantcy of sacred scripture. You know, the Catholic Church believes in the inspiration and errantcy of sacred scripture,

even though a lot of Catholics are really flaky about sacred scripture. scripture, even though a lot of the theologians are, but the Catholic Church believes in the inspiration in the earthy of sacred scripture. Yeah. Amen. And I so appreciate. I enjoyed your book. My last question for you, you obviously, you just turned 45, although it says 80 in there, but

kind of at this wonderful stage here, you wrote a memoir about your ministry and the life in the spirit. Let me ask you this. As someone who is now approaching, you know, that special decade where you get to reflect back a lot. pretty soon we get to die and meet the Lord, right? That's right. So anyone wondering about his age, you can actually check out the book. I won't just close it.

But it's more than me. But now as a man who sat and has kind of walked with the Lord for so long and seen so much, for younger listeners out there right now, what are those things that you would encourage them to say, hey, I kind of wish I had done more of this in my life. What are some of those lessons that you would pass on as sort of a father in the faith to us? Well, it's an ongoing struggle to keep a balance. between our relationship with the Lord and our service to him. It's an ongoing struggle to keep a balance between the opportunities the Lord is giving to serve

him and our love for the Lord himself. You know, one of the things that Jesus first asked his disciples, he said, come and be with me, come and stay with me. So I think coming to be and stay with the Lord is really the key thing. I actually think I've done that pretty well over the years because I recognize that the only way the whole thing made any sense to me is the relationship with Jesus. I experienced a real conversion when I was a senior at Notre Dame and a big conversion. You know, I really met the Lord. But I also knew that I needed to really pay attention to him and spend time with him. So I decided

every day I really need to take a time of personal prayer. And so it's been a long time, but I haven't been always faithful every day. Sometimes I had sleepy prayer times and distracted prayer times and looking at my watch prayer times. I've tried to take about an hour a day for all these years to be with the Lord just to pay attention with them. You see this little icon of Jesus here in the background. This is where I pray.

I pray in this room. It's my home office. And I'll just begin by bowing down on the ground and just adoring God. One of the prayers that the children had Fatim were taught, an angel appeared to them. I know this is wild stuff, but yeah, an angel appeared to them and taught them how to say a particular prayer, and they're supposed to bow down on the ground with a farther down on the ground

saying, I believe in you, I adore you, I hope in you, and I love you, and I ask your pardon for those who don't believe in you and don't adore you and don't hope and don't love you. And he says, say it three times. So I imagine what it was was Father, I believe in you, I adore you, I hope in you, I love you, and I ask you a pardon for those who don't believe in you, don't adore you, and don't hope in you love you. And Jesus, I believe in you and I adore you and Holy Spirit, I believe in you, and I adore you and I hope and I love you and I ask you pardon for those who don't.

And then I say, help me believe more, help me adore more, help me hope more, help me love more. And that's how I begin my prayer time, and then I'll just kind of start looking over it the icon of Jesus. And I'll just remembering how personal this is and how amazing it is that prophets and kings have longed to see this but haven't. The word became flesh and dwelt among us. God the father sends his only son so that we can know and believe and follow and do what we need to do to be saved.

And then I'll pick up my little daily, magnificent prayer book where it has the readings for Mass every day and things like that. And I'll just slowly go over that. And I told you about how it's almost every day there's something in the Word of God that kind of comes out to me and then I'll put it down again and I'll intercede for people, you know, type of thing.

And that time of daily prayer, I think is so incredibly important for people to keep growing in their relationship with the Lord. So that's one thing. The other thing is learn from your mistakes. You're going to make mistakes. I've made mistakes.

What mistake did I make? The biggest mistake I made was getting so excited about what the Lord was doing and how many people were responding to him. One time we had 2,000 people in a charismatic community here in Ann Arbor, you know, an ecumenical community. And pretty soon we felt like not only had we had done it,

but it's our responsibility to keep it going, you know. And so we began to drift from depending on the Lord to thinking our own wisdom, our own actions, what's going to preserve the work of the Lord rather than depending on him. So we almost got to the point of making an idol out of the work of the Lord. Lord. And the Lord profoundly humbled us. You know, we split as a community. It was very painful. But the Lord humbled us. And, you know, I think that was really, really important. And I'm just trying to kind of stay low, so to speak, and depend on the Lord and learn from my

mistakes. And then the same thing, too, balancing work and family, you know. Sometimes I've been maybe too much out on the missions, you know, and not home enough. I think I've gotten that down pretty well now. I think I've got the feel for it. I think I've got the rhythm for it, you know, type of thing. So those are some things, you know. That's amazing. Well, I guess perhaps you and the teacher in Ecclesiastes both have the same advice for us,

which is remember the creator all the days of your youth, right? Amen. Yeah. Let me end with something. One of the Catholic saints, St. Catherine, St. Catherine, Siena, very charismatic, healings, deliverance. Oh, yeah. Could look at a demon in the eye.

and they'd flee, right? All that kind of stuff. She died in 1380, you know? So she would begin praying like this saying, Lord, you are the one who is. You know, I am, Yahweh. I am the one who is not. Just getting clear the difference between the creature and the creator,

just like you said. Amen. And I love her story. I was said that she could wink at a demoniac and it would flee because the demon was so terrified of Christ in her. And I thought, may it be, may I be, May a mere glance, you know, that's a woman to be feared. That's amazing.

Well, thank you so much. Thank you for your book. I really enjoy. Folks, do check out a life in the spirit. We'll put the book link in the show notes. And you can follow Ralph. We'll put all the links so you can follow his ministry and his work and check out all his books. But Ralph, thank you so much for joining us for sharing your wisdom.

We really appreciate it. And, yeah, God bless you, sir. Well, thank you, Ryan. And it was really wonderful to hear about how we kind of intersected some of the same people, you know, at different times in our life, you know. Absolutely. Amen, amen. And since he's in Ann Arbor, I have to close with a fight on. Go USC Trojans, my alma mater. Amen.