The Exorcist Files - The Holder's Downfall | The Eye of the Holder Case Revisited

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

Ryan and Fr. Carlos Martins go back into the most popular and most frustrating case of season two. A teenager freed. A holder possessed. One unconfessed mortal sin that turned a scheduled exorcism into what Martins calls a failure worthy of J.R.R. Tolkien.Thanks to our Sponsors:Right now, save up to 20% on mattresses and up to 25% on everything else when you go to Casper.com. Head to https://forkfulmeals.com/EXFILES for 50% off your first order today!Head to Exodus90.com/exfiles and start your 14 day free trial. Seek the Lord...see what happens!Get 15% off OneSkin with the code EXFILES at https://www.oneskin.co/EXFILES #oneskinpodTimestamps0:00 Cold Open: The Cracked Photographs0:45 Back Into the Most Frustrating Case of Season Two1:31 “A Failure Worthy of Tolkien”2:39 Why an Exorcist Won't Hear His Own Team's Confessions5:25 How Do You Scare a Team Without Terrifying Them7:05 The Goof Named Gary9:02 The Mortal Sin in the Room12:16 Shame, and Why Confession Is Not a Deposition14:16 Sponsor Break: Casper and Forkful18:05 The Brilliant Deception: “Just Go Serve God”18:57 Would Contrition Alone Have Cleared Him20:49 Forgiven and Still Not Ready22:52 Emergency vs. Scheduled: “Tuesday at 11 a.m.”25:04 The Houston Foyer26:46 Did Father Wyatt Ask? On Trusting a Vetted Team28:33 Rolled Case Audio: “Hot Stuff”29:35 Sponsor Break: Exodus 90 and OneSkin33:05 Why the Room Missed It35:57 Justin: Abandonment, a Gang, and a Blood Oath38:42 Peons and Generals: Leviathan Takes the Room40:44 The YouTube Demonologists42:29 The Moment: Rolled Case Audio43:58 Demons Don't Jump45:50 Rolled Case Audio: “Renounce the Affair”46:38 Why Gary Is Harder Than Justin48:10 A Powerlifter in Full Manifestation49:16 He Walks Out, and St. Joseph's Rod Breaks in Three51:12 The Million-Dollar Question: What Happened to Gary52:16 “Gary's Name Is Not Gary”52:36 Who Belongs in the Room53:57 The Morals, and the Man Who Died in the Wrong BedSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome back to The Exorcist Files, the show that gets demons to flee and helps set people free. I'm your co-host Ryan Bethay, and with me is the man who makes the consecrated host, Father Carlos Martins. How are you? Great Ryan. I'd glad to be here. Hope everybody's doing well out there. All right. Well, you're ready to go back into probably the most popular case of season two and the most frustrating, which we'll get to why. But folks, we are going back to Eye of... the holder. Interesting case, huh, Father? Yeah, certainly an anomaly. And thank God it's an anomaly because gosh, it really went off the rails and, and shouldn't. Yeah. Well, Father, all right, so let me

just start with that. As you can say as an exorcist, right? And when I say 100% track record, I'm not saying you're at fault, but generally speaking, you know, as much as you want them to go well, these things don't always end well. No, they don't. And they don't for a number of reasons, but certainly this one would be absolute catastrophic failure. And, you know, I know Father Wyatt, Father Wyatt is a good man, good priest, good exorcist, and I respect him a lot. And he certainly knows what he's doing. But at the end of the day, you know, exorcism is not, it's not a solitary endeavor. You rely on your team and you make certain presuppositions of your team. And, and, and,

And he did check in with his team and to make sure that the usual conditions have been followed. And frankly, he was lied to. And it just, it ended up being just absolutely epic failure, like a failure at the level of a failure worthy of J.R.R. Tolkien. Yeah. Why Tolkien, father? Well, I mean, because it's epic, right? because it's now, you know, the latter state of things is much worse than a prior state. Father, how, I mean, yeah, because this is obviously anomaly, and you've said many times in the show,

you absolutely insist everyone go to confession. Do you insist that you do it with them or I'm curious? No, not at all. In fact, I prefer not to. Okay. Because of the kind of relationship that we have. Sure. We have a professional relationship. And I, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm glad to be a pastor of them if, if, if, if the circumstances align themselves that way. But I would, I would prefer that they have the freedom to be completely honest with their confessor. And sometimes friendships and, and professional relationships. Sure. We have kind of get in the way of that. And the most important thing is, is to be right with God. And

whatever facilitates that, that's what you ought to do. Sure. And so I guess is that similar to physicians and how you're not supposed to operate on loved ones? Is it a similar precept? How you can help obviously, but generally speaking, you don't want your spouse to do surgery on you? Yeah, gosh, you know, I never thought about that. Is it similar? I mean, I guess it would be because it ties in, you know, it brings in emotion and it brings, you know, yeah, I guess a surgeon needs to be cold and calculated.

and he has to be caring, but he just has to be surgeon in that moment. And would he do things differently and maybe less effectively if it was his wife, possibly? Yeah. It's funny because now I'm wondering, this is a complete sidebar. We'll have to maybe we can cut this out. But for those initiated under the Ordinaryate of St. Peter, who are a Biscopalian priest who are married and have spouses and then become Catholic priests, are they allowed to absolve sins of their spouse?

So would they be allowed? In an absolute sense, yes. They are strongly encouraged not to. Yeah, okay. Because, now, I mean, she, you know, God forbid, you know, the wife of one is struck by a car. She's on the road dying. Okay, all the rules get thrown out. Necessity knows no law.

Sure. But generally speaking, yeah, because it just, you know, many, many of her sins are, are probably going to be because of him. And it just, it would, it would risk doing damage to your marriage. And let's be honest, in most marriages, right? It's probably the guy asking for forgiveness, right? No comment. All right.

Well, so if I'm curious, how often has this actually happened to you? I mean, I imagine your team is vetted, so they all understand the nature of this. But is this extraordinarily rare that anyone you know in action ministry, would dare to enter into a, forget the confession part, but just to enter into a deliverance session in a really significantly compromised state. Would you just say that honestly, most people you work with would just know better than that?

Well, they would, they would be, they would be very clear about that. But you see, certainly I've had different teams. I've had different teams. I've lived in different places and I've ministered in different places. So certainly I am very clear about that. I am very, very clear.

If you're going to be in the room, you're going to be on the team, then you're going to hear my talk about what you need to do to prepare and what could go wrong if you don't do this. But see, there's a fine line. Like you want to inform people of the consequences and you want to make them scared of those consequences. But at the same time, you don't want to make them terrified and put the power of the devil kind of on loudspeakers blaring into their ear.

So, so there, you know, there, there is a reasonable limit in which you kind of stop, you know, you state what the consequences can be. You tell them rationally and straightforwardly, here's what can happen if you don't. Is that enough to put, to shake them out of a slumber? Well, you just, I think 99.999, 99, 99% of that. the time. Yeah, but once in a while you have a goof named Gary, you know, and he comes along and he's just compromised by his own sin and starts rationalizing and, you know, I'll do it. And just he usurps the divine order of things. Sure. Yeah, it seems maybe as a terrible

analogy, but I think of the instruction, we used to go whitewater rafting every summer and our guide would like, look, we're going to go down some, we went some serious rapids, some F-4s and he's, you know, and he was like, look, yeah, you're going to have a great time. Obviously, different than actually. He's like, but this is going to be auxiliary. It's fun, but I need you to listen to everything I say, right? Because there will be a few of these, right? That if you're for, if you're dumb, right, and you stand up and you're going to do some

funny, he's like, you can get trapped in this. And there's a lot of rocks and this could go bad very quickly. But stay close. Follow the rules. We're going to be just fine, right? And I imagine there may be something similar to that. Yeah, and you see, you see that there is the audience. person, right? Human beings are funny. They kind of gain a false confidence, right? I've sized this up.

I know it. I know the playing field. I know my skills. And I know the obstacles that I'm facing and I can manage them. I can maneuver that. That's the point where you're you're stepping off a cliff and not knowing it. Yeah. It almost makes you think too of the people who work with like wild animals and they talk about how beautiful they are and that you know, especially like training. You just never lose side of the fact that you're with, you know, a lion or a bear or in that thing can turn like that, right? They're just, they're just fine for me behind a cage or on TV. Dad, no problem. Never had a desire to pet one.

Don't care, don't want to. My life is just fine without having that experience. So hopefully you never had to do deliverance back when Sakefried and Roy at their prime, RIP, one of them. All right. So, father, actually, I'm going to get to the cold open later because obviously Justin's behavior, chilling in very dark. But let's go to just the elephant in the room, the mortal sin in the room. So you have a situation of a last minute exorcism change. You have a holder who is asked to come in and is in this episode in the midst of an affair and knows he's in a terrible situation, has not

confessed it, etc. And in the episode, you know, who knows why someone doesn't actually do what they're supposed to do. But it seems that he reasoned, I will get, I will do this later for two reasons. One, I have a deep relationship with the priest. And so whether, maybe he wasn't, maybe, Father Wyatt wasn't his spiritual director, but he was so close that he just didn't feel, there's a shame in confronting that. And the other side of, well, I'm doing the Lord's work, right? And I'll take care of this. And how many of us think, well, I know I got to do with something, but, you know, I got to go do this first. Sure. Yeah, so maybe let's start at the beginning to make sure everybody is aware of the case, or at least the genesis of the case.

The case involves a teenager in his late teens. He joins a gang after having lost his father. There's a blood oath as part of that gang initiation, and he becomes demonical compromised, which is discovered in the fact that he has an uncontrollable temper that is emerged. He's beat up his mother badly, so badly she requires hospitalization. And in the midst of this beating, every single photograph of his father in the house cracks down the center of the pain. So a perfect even crack in all of the picture frames involving his father. So there's a calling card there that has left an indication of the demonic.

And progressing things to their end, an exorcism is. scheduled by Father Wyatt, the Exorcist. This was not my case. It was one of his. Father Wyatt is sound man, good priest, seasoned veteran. And he scheduled the session, but he had a couple of members cancel out on him, that a couple of holders. And so he was one short. So he, he scheduled an extra one. Not only did he cancel, but one of the main ones did as well. And so it's either canceled a session for everyone and take it up on another day or see if he can find a replacement. So he calls Gary and Gary accepts. But what Father Wyatt doesn't know is Gary, when he calls him, is in the midst of an extramarital affair. He's in the midst of sin.

And so in between that moment and the session the next day, there's no time for him to go to confession elsewhere. And for him to go to confession to Father Wyatt, he's going to have to disclose what he has done, you know, this cheating on his wife. Father Wyatt knows he and his wife. And it just, he doesn't want to, he's afraid of changing father's perception of him, which, which is understandable, but is absolutely brutally stupid under this circumstance. How often have you had to deal with that with a priest with friends who have had moral lapses and they just, you know, they don't want to talk to you and they're just, because I know you don't do confession generally with your friends, right?

You know, I certainly can, but I, you know, we don't talk about the contents. So even, I mean, I'm going to, I'm, here's what I say about that, you know, human beings are sinners. They're broken. And the best of us sin. And so you, you have to go to someone for, you have to go to a priest for that confession. So most priests that priests go to, or, they know them. So that's just the way it is. But you encounter, and it's understandable,

that you will have a shame at admitting your brokenness to someone whom you know. And you think, well, is this going to change his perception of me? And you just have to face that. Under the circumstances, you do. Now, Gary could have done something else. He could have stopped the affair at that moment, gone early that morning, found a priest, gone to a rectory, and just say, hey, I need this to happen. But he chose not to. Yeah. And it could have actually one thing, because I found this interesting, you mentioned to me a while back that, you know, one of the things about confession, because it's such a sacred thing and you want to keep it so secret, right, that you actually instruct people like, hey, just give me the sin. Right.

Right. Because even the details, which might be well intention and humans always want to just like, you know, if you say, I've, If I'm telling you I did something wrong, I'll always present it with, well, Father, you need all the facts, you know, and you're like, no, no, no. You need the facts. This is an act of reconciliation between you and God. God knows the facts, knows the details. If I need any more detail to get an appreciation of the situation, I will ask you for them. But basically, what did you do wrong? And my job is to just be a conduit of the Lord's grace, period. So here's a confession. I've spent most of my life trying to be cool. At night, I'm a hot sleeper, and staying cool always helps me sleep better, which is why I'm very excited to dig into my new Casper mattress with snow technology.

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X files for 50% off. Thanks to Forkful for sponsoring this episode. So here's so what he could. And it's funny because this seems like something a lie that many of us deal with and not just in this extreme circumstance, but the enemy seems to present, oh, you know what? There's no way you can do this. So, you know what? Just go serve God. I mean, it's actually, if you really think about this case, I think it's actually a pretty brilliant deception that, you know what? You got to, I mean, Father, why I needs you, right?

You got to go do ministry. And in reality, what could have happened, and I'm actually curious to say, say someone had come to you, say someone comes to you before an exorcism and actually is as a confession and it's a serious thing. And they were like, I did this. And you know any details? Would you maybe say, you know what? Actually, I don't think you're ready or would the willingness to confess, you know, be enough to get him in the room?

Because I could see a world where he's like, if I tell him, he won't let me help. Certainly, I think it would depend on what is confessed. But in terms of the guilt, in terms of legality at the spiritual level, the confession would be enough. Because as long as there's contrition on the part of the penitent, then that penitent is, by definition, that in the case. kingdom of God. Right? As long as a confession was done well, it was done honestly. There's an absolute desire to be in the grace of God at that moment, done. So for the case, for the matter of them serving in that case in that room, that would be sufficient. Yeah. But what would be interesting is, I guess it should be a general discernment because say you were in Father Wyatt's position, right? And say one of

your holders, you know, comes to you 20 minutes before game time, couldn't get anywhere, it sits down with you and confesses something so grave that like he's kidnapped someone and he's holding a person I mean yeah sure obviously it's extreme but like prison in his house say that happens right um okay would you I guess I'm curious what are the lines for which and I know this is so case by case but what would be the lines you would prohibit someone from saying you know what I don't I don't I don't want you go in it even though you're forgiven you just probably aren't the mental state to do it but he can't yeah well sure that I mean that's that's one part but but the fact that he can't get his life right with God without restoring that victim that he's kidnapped.

Sure. And so I don't want him in the room until, I mean, there could, you know, could I imagine there be genuine sorrow in him? Like he's did, he's done this act. He's kind of talked himself into doing this act. And now he regrets it, but he still has this person. He has this person locked up. Well, heavens, I, you know, you, you, you weren't right with God until you released this person, does this person go back to his or her family? So if Gary had just had contrition,

now I know it's a total habit of that, but if Gary... Contrition in Gary's situation would be absolutely sufficient. But it would be an interesting question to be, because again, tell me I'm wrong here too, but also when you go into the room, you know how even though you're forgiven, so at a legal level, right, you're cleared, would you say also as a priest that, you know, there seems to be, and I know I'm a little outside my expertise here, but when humans do sin, right, there is a tendency to feel distant from God, even though you might know I'm forgiven, et cetera. Sure. Would you maybe say, you know what?

If someone came to you with an extreme sin like that before, say, look, you are legally fine, but I'm also a little, like, I want someone who's feeling really right with God to go in there. And just because you're legally cleared, you might not be in the headspace to take on the ancient adversary. I could see a world where, you know, you just, you're not feeling. tip top coming into battle because that morning you woke up next to someone who's not your wife. Yeah, totally. I understand. This, I wouldn't, it's, it's being honest, it's not as clear to me that it would be as black and white as, uh, as, as, as me spitting out an answer. Uh, why? There's a ton of other factors here. There's the fact of Justin, the kid who is possessed, needs help. Yeah, this is not an emergency exorcism. It was planned. But for us to cancel is a big deal

because it means that he's going to be delayed in getting help. It means that all of these people who have made time to be here for the session, well, that time is wasted. And all of your helpers, all of your assistance, everybody who's in the room, this is a volunteer position. You're relying on their goodness, generosity, and yeah, would they understand for sure? Something comes up one time, but you want to also honor them, honor their time. Sure. So there's all of these factors at play, and, you know, you have to make a decision in the moment. And I don't know what decision I would make, given this situation, like just looking at this

academically right now. Sure. Let me ask you this, father. So obviously, we have to change a lot of things in these cases. So obviously, there may be some discrepancy. here. But generally speaking, what is considered the timeline of a emergency exorcism? Because what happens here, obviously, is it's a little, it happened a little differently in the actual, actual case. But generally, you do have situations, right, where there is a sort of need to move quick. How do you

I guess what's the, what's the thinking of how to balance expediency, but also the seriousness. You want to make sure you've got the right team in place. Yeah. Well, so, so I want that right team in place. So I want to be able to have that all scheduled, locked. We have the location. We have everything we need to do the session. But also I see a value in even if I have that scheduled right now, somebody comes in requesting an exorcism and is manifesting right now. I see a value in delaying it and saying,

I'm going to, we're going to do it on this date and at this time. On your terms, right? Because it's my charts, right? So I don't know what's going on in that situation right now. Is the devil really, really strong in that moment? And he's picking that moment because he has the ability at that time to really inflict some damage. Sure. So you know what?

I'm going to say no right now. But Tuesday at 11 a.m. is a good time. See it? Well, far, can't you do it now? Nope. What is the timeline? And so generally speaking, I know it varies. But like, what you say is from meeting to actually getting some of schedule?

schedule, if you were to just really try and aggregate and make an average, would you say, is it a few days generally, or is it just, or in some cases it weeks out? It depends on the schedule and all of us are really busy. So generally longer than that? Oh, really? Generally longer. And is that because we've talked about the shortage of exercise. So obviously, this is a very extreme example. So, but generally speaking, if Father Wyatt, in this case, Father Wyatt probably has worked on this for a while and then it's a last minute thing and you don't want to move something that's been planned for weeks. And so you want to try and get someone there.

Correct. Let me share, this is something that happened to me when I was stationed in Houston, Texas. So I was at Catholic Charismatic Center. And we had, it was a very busy day of ministry. There were a lot of confessions. There was a retreat going on. And then there was a parish event in the evening. The place has a very large foyer.

There were lots of people gathered. And all of a sudden, some folks come in. kind of the family of this young lady in her early 20s and she's just kind of very dramatic like a really dramatic moaning coming around and they come forward and they say, Father, she's seeing dead people. You know, you need to do an exorcism on her.

And she stops her moaning to add, you know, and they touch me and they touch me. So I saw this situation. There was clearly an attempt to make it much more dramatic than what it needed to be. I size these people up, but none of this looks authentic to me. So, okay, why don't you come in Tuesday at 11? I forgot what time I told them, but, and I'll pray for you that,

well, can't you do it right now because they're touching, no, I can't do it right now. Well, what, you're not doing anything right now. Yes, I am. I'm visiting with my people and that's important. And you're not going to veer me from that. So they left in a huff, angry. I never saw them again. So if they really wanted help, right?

So that's not what they wanted. That was, you know, whether they intended to or not, that was the enemy bringing a disruption into my, or attempting to. And I said no. Moving along, so Father Wyatt had planned this for a while. Last minute, Gary comes in, doesn't get confession, knows something's wrong, justifies it to himself.

Now, one thing, and I want to roll a clip here, So they, actually, before you, I want to talk about Father Wyatt does ask him, right? So he does direct. Do you direct, do you mean, you know everybody in there? So is it unsaid or do you also just, hey, once again, reminder? If this is a seasoned veteran team, you know, they know, I don't have to do that. Just like I don't have that. Hey, did you brush your teeth this morning or am I going to have to smell your breath in there? You just presume thing. Because you're, you're dealing with mature adults. And look, if somebody is a predator team, these are people you trust. You trust. their integrity, their intelligence, their commitment. You know, they're walking with Christ. They have a sincere prayer life. You know, and we do things as a team. Like, we'll do a retreat together. We'll have an afternoon dedicated to formation, where I give them some teachings and things like that,

where I'll bring in somebody to be able to do that. So, okay. So look, it's just, it's, it's, it's a given. Now, in this case with Gary, Gary was a big guy, strong. guy, athletic guy, great guy to be a holder. You know, was he as mature as the others in the room? No. And Father Wyatt knew it. He wasn't quite as mature, but mature enough. He had been, you know, a Catholic and practicing his faith for many, many, many years.

And Father Wyatt knew that. So, but, you know, obviously he wasn't quite as mature. All right, we're going to roll a clip here. And just for context, for those who don't remember, Hot Stuff was the pet name that was exchanged between Gary and his woman he was having an affair with and we're going to find the demon knows that too. Let's roll that clip.

A homeless man approached him from behind asking for money. Hey brother. Can you help me out? No. Like, I'm sorry, I don't have my wallet on me, but here I think yeah, here you go.

Dollar? What can I do with this? I'm sorry, that's all I have, man. Too good for me? Have an ATM card? Wow. Okay, look, man. I was just trying to help.

Chill, dude. Not job. Hey! You must think you're something. Hot stuff. What did you say? You must think you're hot stuff. But your time is coming.

Oh, your time is coming. Who is it? What are you talking about? We die. What? I mean my time is coming. Hello, men. Father Martin's here.

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And, of course, you're in the room. The demon's just yelling at everybody. I mean, it's taking shots. And it might pick someone. Just because it has someone it's picking on because they're liars, you can't necessarily infer anything from that, right? No. And certainly, I mean, you know, the demon called him hot stuff. they didn't know that there was a hidden meaning,

but they didn't know the hidden meaning behind it. So, you know, it might be, you know, somebody, usually in my experience, my team members don't typically get picked on individually. And I can't remember too much of that happening, even in, even other exorcists mentioning that. But it has. It for sure has. Or just, you know, one of the.

I'll slam a car down on the table by saying something like, you know, what did you think of what we did to your car this week? And let's say a tree fell in a car. I'm making up that example, but this would not be outside the realm of possibility. Oh, no, we've had Dave Van Vickle has been on the show a couple of times. He shared, you know, he tragically lost his wife. And he said one of the first times he went back in the room, the demons basically yelled at him and made mocked him for that. Yeah. And I thought that's just. And then the more trite example is he mentions stealing something from a museum when he was younger. Yeah.

And those things constantly tell him, you stole a pterodactyl. And I just find that very interesting that they, but they pick on it. And that's another reason you want to be. You know how I would respond to that? I stole a pterodactyl. You surrendered eternity. Who's the stupid one? Good comeback.

And I can get my own teradol now, right? Right. That's right. I have my own. So he's getting picked on, et cetera. and basically, and then they take a break. Once again, Father Wyatt checks in with him, you know, just to see. And once again, everything's okay.

So he's getting picked on, et cetera. You wouldn't necessarily stop it or anything. You'd say, all right, let's just par for the course. It's not, it doesn't sound that serious at this point. So I wouldn't see a need for intervention. The demon's going to come in and begin his kind of comedy act, if he will. he's going to start picking on things, picking on people, asserting his dominance, because that's what they do. There's an immediate, you know, I'm here, make way for me. It's the image that he's

trying to build. So he starts that. He starts that building. Yeah. Demons know what hot stuff means. No one else knows what hot stuff means. No, well, not in that room, for sure. Yeah, not in that room. They know that hidden meaning. All right, so let's get to Justin. So he's dealing with there were two main adversaries here. There was a spirit of abandonment, and then there was another spirit that identified itself as Leviathan. So let's start with the fact that one of the big entry points that we found out was there was tremendous wounding Justin's father passing away and overdosing from drugs, and he

got involved with a gang, and as part of that process, he had a ritual to join. I'm curious, father, any of your ministry, I know you've done some prison ministry, etc. How common is sort of the rituals and some of the extreme stuff that Justin mentioned in this and how much is it tied to reality of what you've seen? It's absolutely common, absolutely common. So there's a ritual that has the character of a religious experience, a religious action, an initiation that is spiritual in addition to social. So one is initiated into a kind of realm, if you will. And especially in, you know, gangs that have a Latin American connection, that is really common. And they will have a deity. They'll have a, a saint, which is a false

saint. So a demon in disguise to whom they consecrate the gang or the gang's activity or its individuals or this particular individual. So it has, it's, it's, it's, It's an act of the occult. And so it has, there is a bridge that is lowered down for a demon across. There's a door open. And so in the case of this, so the initiation is a deeply visceral act. Yeah, we have it here. It says that he was blindfolded, thrown into the trunk of a car, driven a house, to take into a basement, and then a gun put in his face.

and then the room had grotesque art. There was an altar with a candle and a skull. And then they made him cut his hand and let a drop of blood fall on the skull while repeating some of the oaths. And essentially something to the effect of, I no longer exist individually, but as part of this collective whole. So a blood oath.

Yeah. So you have there a religious action and you just given rights to the demon. And when we saw in him, that the demon came to collect those rights to make good on them and a possession suit. So father, so you should stick to the sharks or the jets if you're going to be in a gang? You bet. You got that reference, right? Nope.

West Side story? No. I never saw it. Okay. So there's another demonic entity that appears in the room, and that is another entity known as Leviathan. And so there's this weird interplay between the two of them and one coming in and one coming out. So we've talked a little bit about this, Father, but how often are you speaking to multiple demons and how often are you interfacing with one at a time? And are you trying to isolate them separately?

And then we don't want to talk to multiple demons. We won't want one. So, and in fact, if we, to the extent possible, we want to get rid of the peons, the lesser demons and go to the main guy, the main possessor. why do we want to do that? Well, you're wasting your energy on a peon, but sometimes, sometimes you're just not able to get, you, you have to exorcise that peon for whatever, for whatever reason that there's some rights that he is able to be there. That's not always the case. So sometimes there's just, you know, the main possessor is able to get a peon, puts that peon in front of them. So all your prayers and actions, he's taking the punishment for it.

Well, that's right. And so in this one, Leviathan actually said, I was looking for the language, which is so colorful. And the exact wording was, Father Wyatt said, oh, your friend's gone, right? And he says, he's not my friend. I command him. I am his general superior. And traders get there. So in this case, the other one had been let go. And so now the other ones place up there. So they'll, I think you've said this multiple times of the show, but they'll bicker a lot, right? And they'll toss each other and, you know, to the flame, so to speak. And the lower level demons do this. As you go up the scale, there are demons that don't bicker. And they command a much stronger presence. Like, there's much more order in the room. There isn't the kind of, like, falling apart in us that you might see. Like, bickering is something that is not on the script. They don't want that to be on the script. Yeah.

Father, how often, so obviously you have an explicit doorway open with the blood oath. The abandonment thing is something we wrestled with in the case of Lena as well when her dad left her. and actually a demon masqueraded as her dad to let her back in. How prevalent is this wounding from parents, parental wounds of abandonment as far as your ministry and what you've seen? It's not uncommon. You know, it's a typical way that humans get hurt. That's a typical wound.

So I think that's the only thing I can say about that. I wouldn't have anything to offer in terms of what demons are connected with that. Well, I would think all of them could be connected. connected to that to that type of wound. So I don't, you know, I just, I hear, I mean, watching certain videos on, on YouTube today, you have, you have folks who, who claim to be exorcists, who, or demonologists, or claim to have a knowledge in this area. And they, they, they, they provide this information that is just absolutely absurd. If it's abandonment, it's always this demon, this demon, or this team. It's one of those three. How do you know? And who told

you that? Where in scripture? Where in tradition? Where in the deposit of Revelation? Did you obtain that information? You did. And so where did you get it from? You got it from the demons.

And this is a problem. So you're going to the father of lies to get truth, that by definition is an act of the occult. It's an occultic act. And then you're taking the information they've given you and you're disseminated. Guess what? You've just become their agent.

You're now disseminating what they're, have given you. Among other things, what this means, what this entails is you are in relationship with them, whether you know it or not, whether you like it or not. You've become their agent. Well, the exercise. The exercise progresses. By God's grace, Justin does some forgiveness and is able to find freedom. However, in probably the most charged and infamous moment in this entire case, Father Wyatt, having removed all the rights from Leviathan, cast him out. And at that moment, poor Gary has some problems happening. So there's a billion questions that come up with this.

But at that moment, suddenly Gary drops the floor. And as one of the holders is now compromised, starts throwing people around. Father Wyatt gets punched in the face. I mean, all hell breaks loose, et cetera. So, all right, so Father, why don't we go to probably the most infamous moment in this entire case? The one that gives us the most pause and just is the most chilling. Let's roll a clip. What's happening?

Gary! Are you okay? Whoa! Much better here. Grumier in here. Gary! Can't wait to fuck all my monies. Mary, help us.

Please stop. No. And just like that, the game changed. Father Wyatt had a massive problem. One possession gave way to a much stronger possession. He didn't want to believe it, but he knew what had happened. The demon had jumped into his holder. I mean, honestly, poor Father Wyatt, he gets, you know, holder goes down, he gets punched in the face.

Gary, poor Gary, too. So, father, a million questions come to mind with us. So maybe we start with this, because people might describe this as a phenomenon of jumping. But you've corrected very easily that demons, what we might experience, it seems to be jumping from one to another, or like the movie The Exorcist, where you have Father Karris, you know, famously saying, come into me, come into me instead, right? Which we would never do. I'm curious, you know, demons are obviously not omnipresent, but what was happening in that moment? Why, why did it appear like jumping for lack of a better turning field? As a sign to the others that are there.

Like, so demons are not omnipresent in the same way that God is, but they are omnipresent within space and time for all intents and purposes. So they're all around us. So, so a demon doesn't have to travel across the universe to be present at, you know, point A to point B. He's present at both points at the same time because he's not limited by space and time. So, so, I mean, a way to imagine this is imagine all space and time existing inside every angel simultaneously. And that's just kind of how it is. And it's odd for human beings because we're wired to see things spatially. And we're wired to experience events happening in succession. But that is just not the case with angels and demons being angels. So we can't fall into the trap.

of grading them in their activity by our experience, perceiving that it happens according to our understanding, because it simply does it. So Gary gets up and is now full-blown possessed, and the demon is just lording its new home. So let's roll this clip. Jesus, help Gary now. Gary, I'm talking to you.

Renounce the affair. Leviathan, I command you to let Gary speak. My hands will do the speaking. Are you roving one? Gary is, Gary's out and about now and just the demon is bragging about it's new digs. New digs. So, you know, it's funny because the reality, though, is that it's not new, right? because as Gary started having and dwelling into that sin, right,

he had already technically started a relationship with the enemy, right? He did, but, you know, what is different? So sure, I mean, he was, he was under its legal dominion. So, so if he were to die in that state, he would never see him. So that's absolutely tragic. What is new here is, is that now his body is under its jurisdiction. So, you know, one sin led to others, and those others entailed an outright possession. I will tell you this, it will be much more difficult to get this demon out of him than it is to get it out of Justin, out of the kit.

Because the kid, yeah, he did a ritual, but, you know, he didn't know that he was actually playing with demons. he didn't know he was opening a portal, he didn't always opening a door, etc. He wanted to be accepted by this gang. Okay, Gary knew. Gary knew what he was playing with. Gary knew the reality, and he knew God's rules, and he chose to ignore those rules. He chose to make his own set of rules up.

And in other words, Gary is the greater demonic disciple. He's a great disciple of the devil in this situation. Now devil comes in. You belong to me. I like you. You're a great disciple. So now you're going to serve me very intimately. And Father, obviously, you've said you've seen old women throw 300-pound men across the room. It sounds like if you have someone like Gary, who I forget if he was just a power lifter or martial artist, but he was not the guy you want to manifest. How much worse is it if you have someone like that? In one sense, it really doesn't matter because power in a possession and a manifestation is,

is going to be, is going to have a pre-tra natural origin. So it doesn't have limits like human power does. But he is intimidating and he is imposing and he is really fit. He's a hulking guy. So there's going to be some obvious value added in his appearance. So combine that with, combine his natural strength and his natural physique and natural appearance and the oppression that that makes with preternatural power, you got there a recipe for, for an Academy Award-winning performance

that any demon is going to appreciate. And he's going to know how to turn that into an award. This is very unpopular. Gary breaks free and actually leaves the exorcism room. I'm curious, Father, just because I know, obviously, this happened to Father Wyatt. Have you ever had someone break free or get out of an exorcism

or had to do, like, pull the rip cord and just because it went so off the rails? I've never had somebody leave the room that I recall. The person will make his or her way to the door for sure like, this is over. And of course, that's the demon talking. And the answer is, no, you don't leave until I say you picnic. And that's that.

So it would be really bad to allow that person to walk out of the room in full manifestation. So first of all, how is that person going to get home? You know, how is that, who's that person going to encounter? If you allow that to happen, the devil's going to use that to cause maximum damage. So you need to have the person leave in their normal personal state. So apart from a manifestation for the person's own safety. And then, as we've often shared, sometimes when demons leave, they usually leave with the show. And in this case, he just strolled out of the chapel.

and as he did, the rod of St. Joseph on the statue broke into three pieces falling on the floor. Yeah. People didn't like that. Yeah. So interesting manifestation, St. Joseph being the foster father of Jesus. Of course, the case begins with a father dying, Justin's father. You know, you have, the devil is saying something there, right? It's a mockery.

It's a scandal. and he is trying, he is communicating, I'm the one in control. So father, the million dollar question that we get asked all the time, don't de esta, Gary. Yeah. So, and it's natural that people would have that. So look, it's not my case. It's someone else's case.

And so it wouldn't be appropriate for me to talk about it for that reason, but also for the reason that the case is ongoing. And so as a rule, we don't talk about current cases. And for the sake of the preservation of the individual, his or her dignity, the victim, but also it's introducing the enemy into a kind of live, ongoing performance. And I'm just, I'm not interested in that.

And I'm not interested in, he would get a delight out of that, I'm sure, and doubtless he would find a way to make some, to get some publicity out of that. So I'm just not interested in it. Sure. And as a reminder, there are many details changed about this case. So if you have friends named Gary, you should not be worried about them, right, Father? Guaranteed Gary's name is not Gary. So don't worry.

And Gary might not be a male. Gary might be a female. Gary, you know, this situation may not be happening in America or even in an Anglo-Bron. country to that matter. So you really, you really don't know the extent of the details that we've changed. Father, you know, interesting in this case, too, we had Justin's... Now, if I see Gary eating oatmeal, that's it, baby. Oh, it's on, game on, right? Is that would have been, that actually would be the bigger... Well, he deserves it. Yeah. Father, interesting too, in this case, you had Justin's mother present in the room praying with her son. Remind me, do you typically have

family members participate in a loved one? deliverance? Yeah, for sure. For many different reasons, it adds a comfort to the victim. When that victim becomes aware, sees a familiar face. It also, there is power in the prayer of the family. There is that. I may not have just any member of the family. It depends on the hold and the manifestations. It sometimes can be really scandalous for that person to see what the demon does. So, So, for example, a young child, never. I'm never going to have a young child in the room. Seeing, you know, his or her parent being manipulated and saying things.

And a demon is going to have a field day with that. It is going to send comments his or her way because he's going to be able to cause an incredible amount of damage in a child. Not interested in that. But people who are safe to have in there, yep. Absolutely. There's a great benefit. Well, I think the moral. this story, and there's a few. One, no gangs and blood oaths, right, Father? Yep.

If someone has hurt you, left you, or abandoned you, forgive them while not forgetting what has happened, but forgive. Yeah. And don't have an affair. Yep. And especially if you're having an affair, if you don't follow rules, if you forget to follow Rule 3, and you do, definitely don't call up Father Bartons and ask if you can go in the exorcism room with him. Well, it was Father Wyatt's case, not mine. But yes, I would also say that as well. And just get your life right with God, it's worth it. It's worth it. Yeah. Also, just because you haven't had an effect happen yet doesn't mean there's not someone watching it. Like, heaven is privy to what's happening. You bet. I actually, there was a person at a church I went two years ago.

and the pastor used an example anonymously, but there was a guy having an affair. And what actually happened was he opened the story of his saying, you know, you never know what like tomorrow's going to bring, et cetera, right? And he said, this guy unfortunately passed away in his sleep, very peacefully, but, you know, just like went, you know, and then when the woman found him, you know, he had passed away.

And the only downside was is that he died in his partner, he was out of him in a fair's bed. Oh, gosh. So crazy, rare, et cetera. But nothing's guaranteed. So the fathers was like, look, where do you want to wake up tomorrow? And I thought, well, that's a good reminder.

So, right, you just never know. But heaven is watching and they're rooting for you. And, yeah, make sure to make good decisions. That fathers are, you bet. Amazing. All right, folks. Thanks for listening. And to all the Gary's out there,

we're Gary's Ari. Oh, God. God bless you all.