The Exorcist Files - The Real Pope's Exorcist: Fr. Gabriel Amorth

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

Fr. Martins educates us on the life and work of Fr. Gabriel Amorth. Take your food to the next level with Graza Olive Oil. Visit https://graza.co/EXFILES and use promo code EXFILES today for 10% off your first order! Download Echo Prayer for free and make prayer a daily habit. Visit echoprayer.com or find Echo in the App Store.”See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

She uttered a curse, like, I forgot what the exact wording was, but may those legs be struck down and accursed. Well, gosh, that's exactly what happened. They turned black and hideous and purple. And for the rest of his life, they remained like that. So the words of grandmother effected this curse. And Father Amworth said, you know, no matter how many prayers he said against that curse, those legs never changed. In other words, it was done. Like the effect in nature by those demonic words that she uttered were set in stone.

And even her subsequent death didn't bring about their undoing. Hello, friends. Welcome back to The Exorcist Files, the show where when it comes to sin, we beg you, just say no. Today, Father Martins will be covering the life and work of Father Gabriel Amorth, a very famous exorcist, who is said to have performed nearly 30,000 exorcisms. He was portrayed by Russell Crow in the film The Pope's Exorcist in 2023, and Father has a wonderful episode for you today. Before we start, though, I do want to address something and share us some updates.

We've gotten a few notes and comments asking about when the next batch of dramatic case files will come out, so we wanted to give you a quick lowdown on what is coming down the pipeline. First off, this show is one of the greatest privileges of our professional lives, and we are so grateful to all of you who help make it possible. Truly, not many folks get to make art and document a subject they care about. It is a privilege. The dramatic episodes are produced as a limited series. That means we do it in seasons.

Our OG listeners will remember that season one was 16 episodes, 13 dramatic and three bonus. Season two has had 12 dramatic episodes thus far and a lot more bonus episodes. The show is not ever going to be a week-to-week, dramatic case files. That is just not something we are able to do. Bottom line, we do have more case files coming for season two, and we are very excited. Switching gears, I do want to give a special thank you to our sponsor, The Lion, for supporting our show. If you want fantastic up-to-date news, completely free, check out readthelyion.com. That's read like read your Bible, the word,

lion, lion of Judah. Readthelion.com. There's a lot happening in the world right now. And to quote St. Ferris Bueller. If you don't slow down and read the line, you might miss it. Lastly, I do want to give a shout out to all the notes we get. To our friend in Omaha who said the show is, quote, too Protestant, and to our other friend in Minnesota who says it's, quote, far too Catholic, to the reviewers who say they hate the interviews and they are boring, and to the reviewers who say the interviews are in fact superior. Welcome to podcasting, folks. Can't please everyone. We appreciate you. Now, on to the show. Let's learn about the exorcist for the Diocese of Rome, Father Gabriel Amorth.

Father Martins, thanks for joining us today. Yeah, you're welcome, Brian. Good to be here with you. We have talked about Father Gabriel Amorth for a while. So are you excited to give the listeners a little more information on this man? Father, before we do a deep dive into who Father Gabriel Morth was and kind of how he became this legend, could you give us maybe an example or two of a famous case for people wondering, why are they covering this guy?

We've mentioned some things from his books. but do you have any cool anecdotes or cases about Father Gabriel and Morth to kind of set the table that would show the kind of person we're talking about today? You know, he didn't build his very formidable influence on the basis of sensationalizing one, two, five, or even 15 cases for which he was well known. He was a teacher and an evangelist at heart. What he wanted to do was communicate the gospel. But I'll tell you that personally, one of the cases in his book that always sticks out in my mind is the case of a curse that he describes that happened to a young boy. So what happened? This man fell in love with a woman and they decided to get married.

And guess what? The man's mother did not approve. And it became, you know, World War III. And she didn't go to the wedding. She wanted nothing to do with him. She disowned her son because he married this woman who mom didn't. approve. Well, three years or so after the wedding, they wanted to reach out to his mom. They, by that time, they had a young boy. And they sent her, I believe it was a photograph.

It's been 20 years since I read this, but it may have been live. But the point is, she saw this image, whether in person or in a photograph, of her grandson. And he was photographed wearing knee-high shorts. So at the time in Italy, in the six, 60s, 70s, this was in style, like to have little kids in these knee-length shorts. And it showed off the bottom half of the legs of the kid. And she uttered a curse, like, I forgot what the exact wording was, but may those legs be struck down and accursed. Well, gosh, that's exactly what happened.

They turned black and hideous and purple. and for the rest of his life, they remained like that. So the words of grandmother effected this curse. And Father Armworth said, you know, no matter how many prayers he said against that curse, those legs never changed. In other words, it was done. Like the effect in nature by those demonic words that she uttered were set in stone.

And even her subsequent death didn't bring about their undoing. And the way he told it was just so dramatic visually. It's hard to forget something like that. It became so easy to picture that happening in your mind. It was just visually so rich the way he presented it. This book was published in 1999. I only entered seminary in 2003. So I was a layperson, but it left its mark in me.

And I knew the power that words have, even though this grandmother was not involved in a cold, was not an overt worshiper of Satan, she probably considered herself a Christian. Nevertheless, the vitriolic words, the venomous rage with which she expressed a cursed, took its effect. Wow. Yeah, I remember in reading his book, An Exorcist tells a story, he also talked about another priest that touched a cursed object and had his hands cursed from touching this

that had a physical ailment. So he was very vocal about that. So, Father, we are talking about a man who is said to have done, I think a thousand exorcism, or some ridiculously high number, which would make his observations and thoughts very relevant. The man obviously had a ton of experience, more so than I think anyone else we've quoted on the show.

But I am astounded at his stamina and the fact that he was able to just simply do so much. But could you give us a little bit of a back? background, how does one become the exorcist of Rome and have this sort of legendary career? Well, he stated that he had done over 30,000 exorcisms. And I think at one point, he even upped it to 40,000. 40,000? But he identified that only, only about a hundred of them were cases of full blown out possession. But regardless, you know, what he's talking about is he had had, you know, 30, 40,000 sessions of praying people that were at. at least partially possessed, or at least there was good reason to believe that they were afflicted

demonically. And it just goes to show you what made up the man. He was a man of profound faith, and he was gritty and tough as nails. And he kind of lived three different careers. You know, as a young man, he was a highly decorated soldier in the Italian resistance during the Second World War. So he fought against Nazi Germany and the Nazi occupation of the Italian Republic during World War II. So he resented the collaboration of Mussolini and his Republican government with Nazism, which effectively made Italy and the Italians Nazi puppets. So he fought against that so much so with such valor that he was actually awarded the war cross for military valor. when he was only 20 years old.

Upon completing the war, he, you know, his father was a lawyer, his grandfather was a lawyer, and so he thought, yeah, you know what, I want to be a lawyer too. So he went and studied law and he graduated when he was around 30 years old. And he developed within his studies a sharp legal mind. And, of course, that's going to be helpful down the road for understanding demons. Demons are legalistic. If you have a legal mind, you can understand the way that they think. It's contractual.

Then, by the time he was done all of that, combined with the personal relationships that he had made during the war, the relationships that he furthered and established when he was in law school, well, gosh, he was so well positioned in secular life to have a great political career. He knew people of great influence. For example, he was the deputy when he was even still a law student of Giulio Andriotti, who was a prominent politician. who would go on to become the Prime Minister of Italy. So Amorth's desire was to build a better world according to the mind of Christ. He was deeply, deeply Christian. And he was now well positioned to do it. But God calls him and he enters into the Society of St. Paul, a group of priests founded

by Father Giacomo Alberioni. And Father Alberioni, he grew his religious community out of a catechetical ministry, a publishing ministry. He disseminated the truths of the faith through publishing books, tracks, magazines, and so forth. He's passionate about Mariology, passionate about the mother of God. Well, Father Gameworth counters that. He's like, you know what? God's calling me to this.

This is where I ought to be. So he became Father Alberioni's right-hand man in the publishing world. He, again, used his gregarious nature, used his sharp mind, his communication skills to build a tremendously wide network of friends and acquaintances throughout all of Italy and Europe. And so finally, when he was 60 years old, so this is in the mid-80s, that's when he's asked to become the exorcist for the Diocese of Rome. He was 60 years old. At a time when most people at that age, they're thinking about retirement, this is when he

begins his career as an exorcist, right? He'd already been a priest for 30 years. And so, you know, there's a lot under the hood with Father Amorth. And so all of this notoriety as an exorcist was only in the last third of his life. Most people don't realize that. Wow. It's probably where some of his outspokenness came from, too, I imagine. Yep.

He didn't have any time to waste. He thought, I just don't care about personal approval. I've lived a good Christian life, and I'm not going to stop now. Elsa, you said he enjoyed a good drink and a good cigar. I'm beginning to wonder if that's like exorcistic fuel. It seems a lot of the good exorcists enjoy that. Oh, I wouldn't trust an exorcist unless he could enjoy a drink and a cigar and detested oatmeal. Yeah, so interesting.

I didn't realize that he was an older man. I guess Russell Crowe portraying him in the movie does portray him as being, it looks like maybe a man in his 60s sort of. But one thing I've noticed, father, there's a lot of exorcists that we've talked to. in research for the show. A lot of them were older when they assumed that position. Is that a requirement? No, it's not an explicit requirement. So essentially there are four requirements. So this is from the ritual of exorcism when it outlines the minister and the conditions for performing a major exorcism.

The ministry of exercising those possessed is given by special and express permission of the local and ordinary, who as a rule will be the diocesan bishop himself. such permission is to be granted only to a priest endowed with one piety, two, knowledge, three prudence, and four, integrity of life. Who has been specially prepared for this office? So, look, it will often be the case that it is a mature priest who exhibits those things, because of course, if you're ordained this morning at 10 a.m., how would we know that you have these conditions? by 5 p.m. So a really young priest tends not to be appointed to that. Now, there might be other factors that intervene in that. You know, hey, you're the only suitable one, that others are impeded because of advanced age, because of health issues, because maybe an excessive

fear of the devil, et cetera. So the thing to note, though, too, when it says piety, integrity, and so forth, it doesn't say the most pious. It doesn't say the one with the most integrity. It just says these virtues have to be present. In other words, you can't invest this task, this function in a priest who is known for not being holy, who is going to walk into this situation and you're sending him on a suicide mission where he's going to be hurt. Amen. Father Martin's here. I want to do a quick plug for one of the most powerful tools I've seen for

breaking free and growing closer to Christ. Exodus 90. The Exodus 90 challenge begins this year on January 20th, but this isn't just a 90-day program. Exodus 90 is a spirituality for modern men that is built on three ancient pillars, prayer, self-sacrifice, and fraternity. We all long for something more. We long to be the men God created us to be, sons of a loving father. It's time to turn away from our idols. It's time to break free from the pharaohs that hold us in bondage. If you're ready to make a fresh start and embark on a journey to uncommon freedom in Jesus Christ,

then download the Exodus 90 app today. This is your chance to break free, refocus, and rediscover who God is calling you to be in the new year. It starts January 20th. So go to Exodus 90.com slash X-Files to learn more about Exodus 90. That's Exodus 90.com slash X-Files to join tens of thousands of men from all over the world for Exodus 90. Again, it begins Monday, January 20th. God bless you.

And also, Father, you did mention that having a legal mind is great for exorcism. So this clears up an old controversy we've had, which is that if a lawyer becomes an excellent exorcist, it's because lawyers are closer to the demonic. But we're not saying that, right, Father? No, we're not saying that. We love lawyers, right? Well, you know, look, demons fear Christ. And the more of Christ that is in somebody, whether an exorcist or anyone else, that there's going to be just more fear in the demons.

Christ is the only fearful thing to a demon. And so whether he's a lawyer or not a lawyer, the exorcist is successful to the extent that he possesses Christ inside him. Now, look, the fact that he's a lawyer, the fact that he can think legalistically, the fact that he can, that he knows. how to process and distinguish and isolate realities. He can note different kinds of things, group them together and so forth. He can process information and is able to discern what is being presented to him like a lawyer can. Well, that's for sure going to be an asset. But it is far below an importance than possessing Christ inside him. It's going to be a tool. You know, it for sure is going to be good. It's going to be useful. It's going to be a very useful

tool. But Christ is the one essential element that he's got to have. Let's get down to a little bit of Father of Mourth's techniques, tactics. I know people are generally pretty curious about that on the show. Father, are you aware of similarities between your approach and Father Morths? My strategy is to typically ask three questions. And I've talked about this on the show before. What is your name? For what purpose were you created? For what purpose did God bring you to come to be, and who is your nemesis, who's your enemy in heaven? Now, Amworth, he certainly asked for their names. He may have asked for other questions as well. You know, about his technique, I don't know that he was grounded always and only into one single technique. He took the case as it came to him,

and he certainly became a natural, so much so that people tell me, I was never present at any of his exorcisms. You know, he was already quite aged when I came around and was ordained and started functioning an exorcism. And our times certainly did overlap, but there was never an opportunity for us to overlap one another. But Father Amworth, so I've been told by others who were present, was so full of holiness by that stage in his life.

He was just so filled with Christ that he didn't need any holders, that he had. had a mattress in his room and he made the victim sit down on the mattress and the exorcism was conducted and he was never attacked. But towards the end of his life when he's well into his 70s and 80s, that's how he functioned. I think the other thing to note is he used the ritual of exorcism, but he didn't use it as much as what people might think. Mostly he prayed. He prayed vicariously.

And he had said at one time that at the end of his career, he didn't know, he had said, he prayed vicariously. And he had said at one time that at the end of his career, he stated he conducted over 30,000 exorcisms, but only a hundred of those were probably cases of full out possession. So what are the others? Well, partial possession. And so he mostly prayed extemporaneously. And that should be no surprise because that's how the church functioned for a great part of her history. you know, there was not until, gosh, in the 1600s, a formal ritual of exorcism for the whole world.

Up until that time, the diocese that you are part of may have had a kind of set of ritualistic prayers. They may not have. And so you just did whatever. You prayed, right? So necessity knows no law. So because of somebody doesn't give you a tool, well, guess what? You make a tool. Whatever is at hand, however you're moved.

And that prayer is caustic against the devil. That prayer is an enemy to the enemy. And so Father Amworth was less ritualistic than what most people think. You know, he also said, and this is worth noting, you know, on page 112 of his book, an exorcist tells his story, he says, and this is really important, Exorcism is only 10% of the cure. The other 90% is the personal effort of the victim to get better. So exorcism for the victim is not a passivity. It is an activity.

It is a way. It needs to be a way. It must be a way where you are participating in your own liberation and getting closer to Christ. If you don't do that, the exorcist can do whatever the heck he does. He can do it 80 times, a thousand times, a million times, and there'll be no progress because you aren't doing your portion. So among everything else that an exorcist is going to do, he's always going to be examining. Is there a participation of the victim here?

Because if not, gosh, you know, I'm just wasting my time. I'm burning my time, burning my energy when I could be helping people that really do need and want to be helped and that that help will actually be fruitful. this person here for whatever reason is being a passenger and I'm out of here. Well, this is a little off topic, but just thinking along the lines of demonic tactics, but would demons, or are you aware of anything where a demon would send someone to pretend to want an exorcism to waste time, given the ratio of how much it has to do with the victim, you've mentioned having people and your team, you know, having infiltrated the church at times or, you know,

the team and cursing, et cetera. Is that something that you have seen or heard about is feigned exorcisms to waste an exorcist's time and at worst endanger them? Absolutely. So, you know, why would the devil do that exactly what you said, to waste your time, to waste your energy, to clog the wheels? Because if he can send you down a rabbit hole, then he's going to take you out of the equation in other situations and for other people, for other victims, who actually can make

use of your help. So what he'll do is send somebody on his payroll to occupy your time. And that happens a lot. And so look, when I was in Houston working really earnestly daily in this in deliverance and exorcism ministry, helping the exorcist of the diocese and conducting investigations in doing assessments and taking in intakes and so forth, the first thing that I had to do equal to everything. So equal, you know, is this person, is this person of goodwill? Is this person really after a liberation, a liberation that's rooted in Christ? Or is this person want to just get rid of a pain that he or she may genuinely be experienced? And, you know, after that, drop Christ and, you know, gosh, what was that all about? Now, I, you know, I'll, you know,

go back to my life of sinning. And you encounter that constantly, constantly. And I would identify that in people. Like if they were in a state of sin actively and currently, and I would say, look, this is going to prevent your liberation. If they resisted me on that, like, look, I just named you to get rid of the devil. Like, I'll deal with my own stuff when I deal with it. Not, you know what? You're going to deal with it before you come to me. There's the door right now. And you take it. And until you decide to get your life right with Christ, then you don't want Christ and you don't want me. And you're taking my time and see that waiting room that you walk down here. All those people sitting there are waiting to see and hear me. And my being with you and you not being with Christ is taking away from them and my effort will

have fruit with them where it won't with you. So you know what, pal? Come back when you're serious about wanting Christ. All right. Father Gabriel Morth, he did not spare words and pull punches when he addressed unbelieving bishops. And actually at one point praised Pentecostals in years past for helping bring back this reminder of the authority of the church under Christ to get rid of demons. He said, if at one point another expression of Christianity is doing something better, it is important to learn from it and be inspired from it rather than shun it. And so, Father, could you talk a little bit about his outspokenness with that and maybe set the table for what he was referring to when he talked about unbelieving bishops and sort of this lack of

awareness of spiritual warfare in that time. Yeah, you know, that was a really painful time in the church. And we're not fully through it, but we are in a much better position now, you know, 40 years later. So in the 20th century, there was an exaggerated confidence in the scientific. People thought that mystery in religion will be supplanted by science. So problems with sin and problems in people's souls, you know what? As soon as we develop an adequate psychology, then we'll get to those answers. That was kind of this prevailing notion of the day. And it manifested itself within seminaries, like during a little bit in the 60s, but gosh, especially in the 70s, and oh my goodness, in the 1980s, many of the truths of the faith just weren't taught in Catholic seminaries.

It just wasn't taught. So there was this wholesale repudiation of the tradition, of the truths of the faith. And so scripture study was replaced with this hypercritical belief that the Gospels can't be trusted, that the New Testament texts are in many ways a work of fiction and that kind of thing. So what that does is it critically attacks the faith of people. So among the first things that are going to be jettisoned is the existence of demons. And, you know, goodness, if you have a debate with some, especially members of religious orders today, so, you know, I'm thinking of like a great many Jesuits, you see them in the comments that they make online.

They believe that demons are a myth. Now, not all Jesuits, the Pope is a Jesuit, and he's talked a lot about the devil. and so forth. But during this time, this is how clergy was formed. Then in the late 80s and the 90s, they start to become bishops. Those were formed in the 70s and even 80s. And so they bring this theology, this inadequate impoverished theology into their practice as bishop. So the first thing that is jettisoned, well, I'm not going to have an exorcist. What I need is psychologists, and that'll take care of every problem. Well, that goes right up against what is stated in the gospel. I find for me a page where Jesus Christ is not exercising a demon once he begins his ministry.

Find a page. And in fact, when he moves into his passion, he says, now is the time where the prince of this world will be cast out. He is saying that his passion and death is the world's grand exorcism. That's how Jesus Christ defines it. Well, if you don't believe in the devil, then you certainly don't believe in exorcism, and you're certainly not going to take care of people who are spiritually afflicted, because you don't believe that affliction is anything other than in their own minds. And this is what Father Amworth was up against, often, and he railed against certain bishops, and he found some and encountered a great many who didn't believe. And in fact, there's one humorous passage where he talks about his book, he encountered one. And the bishop

said to him, frankly, you know, Father Amorth, I don't believe in myths. Then he said to him, son. So Father Amorth calls the bishop's son. He said, son, then you better pick a different career because you don't know your trade. If you're a bishop and you don't believe in demons, you are an inadequate bishop. Now, Father, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't call bishop's son, right? You certainly don't call bishop's son. But there was a pastoral edge to that little, let's say, pseudo-insult, pseudo-disrespect, which was concomitant to debasing to which that bishop had lowered himself through his own false theological beliefs. I remember an exorcist tells his story as well that he had a bishop call him one time and say, we don't have an exorcist available. What should we do?

and Father Morth told him, well, you can do it. And he said, well, where do I start? And Father Morth told him, why don't you start with one of the many prayers in our book and just open it up and start? You are a bishop after all. And it was humorous. But yeah, that's so interesting. And obviously, to be fair, that emphasis, if you'd call it Father,

sort of a secular naturalism and sort of a lack of belief in the miraculous was not just reserved to the Catholic Church. But there was an old joke even in many Protestant circles, too, about Father's son and Holy Counselor degrees. Have you heard that? Right, yes. Now, Father, when he said that he actually praised Pentecostals for kind of helping kickstart in some ways a renewal and interest in this, what was he referring to?

The Pentecostals, they had their belief in the demonic, and they had, more importantly than that, a belief in the demonstrative power of God, that God sends his gifts. And that's, you know, that comes right out of even the very very very very important. name of the movement. Pentecostalism is a movement that takes its inspiration from Pentecost. And what happened at Pentecost? Well, there was a demonstration of the spiritual gifts. And so they believe that God is imminent, that God responds to the prayer of the believing community. And as they prayed for people that were afflicted, guess what? Liberations happened. And I remember, too, like my old spiritual director and mentor, Father Joe Kane, he was the exorcist

for the Archdiocese of Ottawa back during the 1990s. And this is after he had already spent 30 years as an exorcist in South America. You know, Father Joe, there was a time where the bishop would not authorize an exorcism. You know, he just either didn't believe or just thought, oh gosh, you know, how can we be certain that, you know, and so unless a demon comes out of the person's nose and I see him, then I'm just not going to believe. Well, eventually, you know, Father Joe told me, like, you know, by the end, he had the confidence of Archbishop Marcel Jervais, who was the bishop in the late 90s in the Archdiocese of Ottawa. He had the confidence to be able to function as an exorcist. He had the mandate.

But when he didn't have a mandate, when there was no help offered to people, Father Kane would get the person in the car and drive them to a Pentecostal prayer group, and he would join the prayer group in praying for them. There was no other way. there was no other structure in the church to bring about the liberation for this poor person. And do you see that changing now, Father? I mean, obviously, when the show, when season one came out in 2023, that was a year of particular interest in exorcism. We had the Pope's Exorcist come out. We had Blumhouse redid the Exorcist franchise. You had Satan Khan happening in Boston, I remember, was going on.

But it seems like belief in this has risen relative also to the increase in fascination, with spiritualism in the occult as well. So do you see on a maybe silver lining, Father, that this returned a form of the church and its ability and authority to battle demons? Oh, absolutely. The church is in a very, very different place. I entered seminary in 2003. The church is in such a different place now that was back then. And then I think in the 1990s, which was in some ways the worst time in the church's history for belief in the supernatural. In the United States, you know, we have over 200 dioceses. There was something like only 17 appointed exorcists during that time.

So we're talking in the early 1990s. This is Archbishop Jeffrey Grob, Archbishop of Milwaukee, did his dissertation for his canon law degree on exorcism during that time. And he actually took that survey of each diocese. 17 exorcists for the whole nation. But we're just in a different place now. It's not just the belief in the devil, but the quality. of the clerics has risen.

One of the great things that Pope John Paul the second did and Pope Benedict did was to renew the seminaries. They took great care to retinker the seminaries and to extract from them these forces that were counterfeit. And I remember even in the 1990s, the teaching staff at St. Augustine's Seminary in Toronto,

So every single one of the teaching staff, but two, were fired. I mean, there was just a wholesale change. And the Holy Father, the Pope, wanted everything started over again. And that happened in many places. So I can't look at a single seminary in North America today and say, if I were a bishop, I would never send a seminarian there. there's not one that is that bad, that egregious. But 20 years ago, absolutely. Well, that's great news to hear. Father, you mentioned that Father Amorth had a special devotion to Mary. Maybe you could educate some of our listeners too who are not familiar, myself included, with what that means when we hear about particular members of the church having a special devotion to the Virgin Mary and what that actually means for those who aren't Catholic. So Father Amworth, first of all, he cultivated a personal devotion. So that's a personal awareness of the importance of the mother of God. So we believe, as Christians, all of us believe, whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, we believe in the communion of the saints. And although that belief can entail different aspects, like the Catholics and Protestants, for example, we certainly believe in the intercessory power of the saints.

the saints. But we also believe the Catholic and Orthodox that among the saints, the preeminent saint is the mother of God because it was through her cooperation with God that the world received its Redeemer. And that's not nothing. It's not nothing because it would take someone who was spotless and sinless to bring about the Savior. Otherwise, he's receiving his material component from a sinner. Sinners entering into the body of the Savior, because that's how original sin is transmitted. It's transmitted through the physical act of generation, but also, too, in terms of the legalistic familial relationship within the family, You know, as a Jew, Christ would have been bound to obey his mother, both his mother and father.

His father is in heaven. You know, there's no doubt of that. There's going to be that obedience regardless. But in terms of his earthly mother, if she were a sinner, then that means he had to obey a sinner, which is absurd. How could God be obedient to and honor a sinner? So that's a theological grounding of something that in tradition, Eastern and Western Christians have been an absolute consensus about that the mother of God never sinned. And is the only creature, the only creature to whom that applies.

And so when God approaches her with his offer and waits on her decision, there is, of course, because of free will, the chance that she will say no. So the liberation of the world, God's plan to bring about its healing, to exercise the world from the influence of the devil and to make heaven a possibility. And so the fact that she said yes, even though she didn't understand, right, of course, her response to the angel's offers, how can this be? What are you talking about? I don't know, man, but the verb that the angel uses is God is going to do this to you. But it's a verb tense that does not exist in English. You know, it's not that God will do this down the road in the future.

He says, God is about to do this now. But how can this be? There's no guy around. It's obviously not within her categories. But the angel says, for God, all things are possible. Don't you worry. God has a plan. Well, if he has a plan, that's good enough for me.

Let it be done to me according to your will. Boom. So among all the saints, you know, our lady, stands head and shoulders above them. And the church has always had an expression regarding the unique kind of category that she occupies, and that is de Maria nunquam satis. De Maria nuncum sati.

About Mary, you can never say enough. So her yes cleared the way for God's plan, God's exorciser of the world, God's exorcist of the devil to come through, and to bring about the inauguration of his kingdom. Well, Father Amworth cultivated a personal relationship with her. God, of course, is his savior. Jesus Christ is the one who will bring about the salvation of Father Amorth, and who brings about mine, who brings about yours. But to Father Amorth, she merited a special devotion, a special thank you. And people who do good things to us, they merit our thanks.

It is just that we thank them, and it is unjust if we don't. And so he cultivated this very personal relationship, this personal devotion, as I do. And, you know, I'll tell you this. I don't know of a single exorcist who doesn't. Because in that room, the prayers to the Blessed Mother are more powerful than any prayers to any other saint. Now, God may have a particular plan in this case, you know, St. Walburga of Saxony. There's a special place for her in this case, and we may discover that like, holy cow, wow. Invoking her was the thing that brought about the undoing of this demon.

But I will tell you this, you bring up the name of Mary, you bring up the mother of God, and there will always be a visceral reaction from the demon. And many exorcists, myself included, we think that the probability is very high, that this is the reason why the devil possesses more women than men. It's out of his hatred for the Blessed Mother. So, Father, to quote a 90s movie, there is something actually about Mary, right? There is something about Mary. There you go.

Okay. All right. As we start to land the plane here, let's make our initial dissent here. Father, what was Father Amorth's advice for people seeking protection from demonic influences? Was it the usual stay close to God and avoid sin? or did he have anything in particular that he really harped on? Well, certainly it's that. Stay close to God.

You know, like get rid of sin out of your life. Get rid of it. Get rid of it. Follow God's plan for you. That means attend church every Sunday, right? Live the sacramental life of the church. Christ comes to us through the sacraments. That's his plan.

The seven sacraments are these seven ways that Christ left to heal the world. use sacramentals, use holy water, use blessed religious objects, metals. And in doing so, these things really have an effect. Why? Well, because God created a material world and he created us as material beings within that world. Now, we also have an immaterial part, but both of those things make up our being. We are not souls inside a body. we are embodied souls, right?

We are in souled bodies would be another way. So the soul and the body in God's plan were never, ever meant to be separated. And this is why death, if you've ever seen somebody die, it's usually traumatic as hell. When you see that separation of the body and soul, it's traumatic. It was never part of God's plan that that would exist. So God created us as a body and soul unity. So it should be no surprise that he gives us material things to help us in the journey, in addition to spiritual things, in addition to prayers, in addition to his word.

But, you know, heavens, a blessed metal is really protective against a demon. The use of holy water, like both the Eastern and Western Church has used this from time in Memorial. Why? Because it works. And to say that it doesn't, to say that there's no difference between holy water and any other kind of water is not true. It's denying that God has any care in the material world that he created. God loves the material world. That's why he created it. And he loves everything that he does. So it should be as no surprise that he gifts us his grace through the order of matter. All right. Father, did Father Amorth share your aversion to oatmeal, or is that unknown at this time? Anybody who is holy can't stand oatmeal.

Is that church doctrine, or is that more guidelines? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's doctrine, for sure. Okay. Okay. Just making sure. What would you say his impact has been on the Catholic Church's approach to exorcism and spiritual warfare, and how has he impacted you personally and your colleagues? Is this the Michael Jordan of Exorcists? is he, you know, obviously we sometimes assume fame automatically correlates with proficiency. In this case, it does. He's well known and is regarded highly and it's justified. But what has been his

lasting impact? Well, gosh, you know, we owe him so much because he took exorcism out of the back room of the church and brought it into public discussion. And that was so important and so needed. And it helped, frankly, a lot of people get help because it made the topic respectable. He swept it out from the corners and brought it into the light again. And, you know, his influence there has been incalculable, immeasurable. He became a recognized authority on the topic and articulated it well. And because he was so articulate, people were afraid to get in it with him in a public disagreement. And no one could dispute his love for the church.

No one could dispute his love for Christ, his desire to help victims. The man lived an exhaustive, tiring life. He was constantly helping folks get free of the evil one. And God bless him. He was a hero in every way. And I hope the church one day will canonize him as a saint because I think that's exactly what he was. But he articulated the task of the exorcist and the need for exorcism to the world and even confronted non-believing clerics.

So his influence is far and why. mind. So, Father, in an exorcist tells a story, I found this interesting, and we have talked about this on the show, but just, I think it bears repeating. Father Morth did talk about the three classic signs of possession that we've documented on the show from superhuman strength, knowledge of the unknown, speaking in foreign languages or unknown tongues, but he said that in all his exorcism is that many times the victim did not display these manifestations that the church uses to determine true possession until after he started the exorcism. Has that been your experience too or any thoughts on that? For sure. In the vast majority of cases, because the devil's not an idiot. You know, the devil isn't going to just display these preternatural signs.

He's not going to give away his presence just because you want him to. He's going to be on his best behavior when he's in front of the principal. And he's going to try to want the exorcist to think that, hey, this person is either faking it or is mistaken or has mental illness. You know, so send this person on his or her way. and then you won't be late for dinner. Father, can you tell us a little bit? Father Morath is also famous for having started the International Association of Exorcists.

Tell us a little bit, why did he do that? Was there any predecessor to that governing body? Or what was the story of that? Yeah, the International Association is just, you know, kind of a group that Exorcists can opt to belong to. They have conferences. And at these conferences, you discuss topics that would be pertinent, that would be relevant

to the topic of exorcism. He started that as a way to bring them together, to give as a support, as a support for the exorcist himself. So that exorcists from all over the world, they can come together, they can share ideas, they can pray for one another, they can support one another through sharing of insights and so forth. And so I think it's now 20, 25 years that it has been in existence and it has been a source of strength for many people. Well, Father, any other closing thoughts on Father Gabriel Amorth? Do you think he'd be a fan of the Exorcist Files? You know, I think Father Emorth would be a fan of anything that continues his work, and I certainly view myself in the same vein in the sense of wanting to educate people on the reality of spiritual warfare, which is another way to say, I want to educate people on their relationship with Christ, and anything that would threaten that. And certainly the devil is the main thing that will threaten that. in terms of he and his fallen angels. Sin, of course, is the vehicle by which he does that.

And I want to catacize people from a way or in a manner that is, it comes right out of left field. So, you know, we go to church and we hear our homilies and at a certain point to some people, like the homilies that can begin repeating themselves, I wanted to do something that was very different than what you typically hear on a church on Sunday. And something very Christian, deeply Catholic, that would prepare people for what is happening all around them. I think Father Amorth would have been pleased with it. I think he would have been a person that would have, I think, have asked it to be on the show. I think he would have hardly agreed. All right, folks, well, that concludes our deep dive into the legendary exorcist, Father Gabriel Lamorth. I do recommend checking out his book. I found it fascinating. He has many books, but an

Exorcist tells his story is the one we quote from a lot on this show. So check it out. Some have called it one of the best Exorcism books since the Exorcist Files book from Father Martin. So both of those are required on any shelf, right, Father? You bet. Awesome. Well, folks, thanks for listening to this episode on Father Gabriel Amorth with Father Carlos Martens and Ryan Bethay. We hope you enjoyed it. And we will see. see you next week.