The Exorcist Files - The Subtle Attack Of The Enemy Most Christians Miss (Ft. Fr. Carlos Martins & Dan Burke)

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

Dan Burke knows a thing or two about spiritual warfare. He has participated in dozens of major exorcisms and has helped disciple thousands through the Avila Institute for Spiritual Formation. Dan is the author of more than 15 books on Catholic spirituality and is a former executive with EWTN. Ryan Bethea and Fr. Carlos Sit down to interview Dan in one of their first CO INTERVIEWS!Thank You To Our SponsorsOllie. Feed the Obsession. Go to https://ollie.com/exfiles and use code exfiles to get 70% off your first box!Go to https://hopremi.com/EXFILES and use code EXFILES at checkout for 50% off with Remi Club Subscribe & Save. Get 15% off OneSkin with the code EXFILES at https://www.oneskin.co/EXFILES Join Exodus90 for their St. Michael's Lent Challenge starting August 12th. Go to https://Exodus90.com/exfiles for a free trial. Sign up for the Vault to support the show and get access to the dramatic episodes a day early! https://Exorcistfiles.supercast.comFollow us on IG at https://instragram.com/exorcistfiles and   / thebethea  Get Dan's Books here- https://avila-institute.org/profile/d...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I've been in 24 full-right exorcisms, all of which were movie-level junk happening. Your job is to beat up the demon enough as an exorcist so that it creates a relief and pressure so that the individual can exercise their will in the name of Jesus to be free. Welcome back to The Exorcist Files. I am your co-host, the Heretical Prajre, here with my good friend, the Padre. You like that one, Father Martin? Ah, hi everyone. Now, what you're seeing today, don't adjust those TVs, folks.

You are seeing Father Martins and I co-interviewing a guest. So this will either be one of the great miracles that happens from the show or the last time we are ever seen on camera together. My father? Sure. Well, I would like to introduce our guest because I yearn to learn to discern. And I could think of no one better. than to have Dan the man whose beard is to be feared,

an author, a speaker, a trainer of clergy, a man who has so much wisdom for us, Dan Burke. Thank you for being on the program today. It's an honor, really a great, great appreciation for your work. And Father Martens has helped us with our relic discernment in the past, and so at the retreat center. So anyway, it's just, what you're doing is so important. important and good. And when you invited me out, it was an easy decision.

Love that. So obviously, you're very gifted at discerning since you decided to come out to our show. Of course. That was the first test. I'm perfect in discernment. I'm not. Now, you and Father Martins were having a really cool conversation because, you know, it's an exorcist. And so I was eavesdropping. And you said something quite profound that I didn't want to forget and make sure everyone gets to hear. You mentioned that beards actually are an outward demonstration of something. Well, it's a new scripture that I discovered. Oh, see, as a Protestant, I like that. Let's go. What is that? It's 3rd Corinthians 17. Oh, Clement.

Let me see if I can remember the exact wording. It's the evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of beard. Wow. Sorry, ladies. There you go. Father, do we find that in tradition anywhere? This is why Paul does not permit women to teach. They lack beard.

They lack beard. Wow. Okay. Well, on that one, I'm going to proceed to our icebreaker. So you are special because you get two icebreaker questions. Okay. The first one is, I'm. I loved learning about your journey.

You grew up Jewish. Yeah. I am still Jewish. You turned Baptist. Yeah. And then I think you got a little Pentecostal at one point and got a little more charismatic. And then you started looking into orthodoxy and then arrived at the Catholic Church. Kind of, yeah.

Still got some years to go. So who knows where this will end up. Oh, yeah, yeah. But we do ask on this show, oftentimes of our guests, what is something you deeply appreciate about other expressions of Christianity that you have been a part? part of or just are in close communion with? It's funny, I'm flushed with emotion instantly with that question. I would have a bullet in my head and be in a casket if it wasn't for evangelicals leading me to Jesus. I'm not exaggerating by any stretch.

I was in total despair. I grew up in abuse. I had a gun fired in our home and in our driveway and my mother was beaten and we were terrified as children and I thought when I left home, you leave that behind and you don't. I discovered that. When I discovered that, I thought, well then if I got to live with

what I live with, then why would I do it? It makes absolutely no sense. And so the Holy Spirit was working. I didn't know, of course. And then I cried out to God in a prayer that he always answers. I didn't know who he really was. I mean, I always believed in God in a vague sense as a Jew, but cried out and said, if you're there,

you've got to help me because I can't figure out a way through. And he just started sending me people. And first guy was, I won't go into the whole story, but first guy was an evangelical at a pizza hut restaurant who former cocaine addict musician loved, we shared some interests, and he just was kind to me. He was just living his Christian faith.

And initially I thought he was gay, and I was going to punch him for being nice to me because I thought he was hitting on me. But I discovered, no, he says, no, I'm a Christian, I'm supposed to be nice. And then he shared, the gospel with me. And I didn't come to Christ then, but it was just lights along the way. And so I owe my, you know, persevering through the storm of abuse, the interior storm of abuse

to coming to know Jesus through, you know, evangelicals, Baptist, Chuck Swindall, Dr. Ralph, no, what was it, Martin? What was the guy? He was a Catholic. No, yeah, charismatic renewal, Ralph Martin? No, not Ralph, but he's a friend, but a Protestant guy who, a Christian Research Institute, he founded it. I can't remember his name now, it's top of my head, but he loved the way he argued about

positions in scripture, and I didn't even believe it. But anyway, long story short, my appreciation is quite extreme for those who, claim the name of Jesus, even though we may not agree on important things like ecclesiology and soteriology and, you know, those fine distinctions about how we're saved. But certainly those who claim the name of Jesus or outside of the Catholic faith have been profound blessing to me. Well, that's really beautiful. I'm so sorry that you had to go through all that. And I'm glad that even Pizza Hut was redeemed. Well, I don't know about that, but I was blessed. by Mark and Pizza Hut.

Oh, man. Well, I'm excited to doing this. Father and I were thinking about what we wanted to kind of start this interview off with. And obviously, we have two people who obviously we have the spiritual warrior himself in the house here and someone who's done a lot of work, training and deliverance and really spending a lot of time thinking about this. You wrote a book as a very interesting thesis, and I want to start maybe here. And Father, please jump in at any point here too. but I'd like to actually start here.

You wrote about something which I found very fascinating is the enemy luring us in as part of the warfare into a false sense of peace. Oh, yeah. Father Martins has taught on the show a lot, I mean, many of the stories that he shared on the show are people are, there's not a lot of peace.

Things get really bad, et cetera. But I found it so interesting because in my own experience, it seems like if I'm being totally honest with myself, if suddenly a big payday comes or the right relationship comes or whatever. It seems like, oh, because those things can be really good things. Yeah.

But you really highlight another dimension to that. So maybe you could just start off with, because I know there's a thesis of one of your books, but talk all about that. Well, there are two realms where peace have to be undergo testing to determine if they're from God. The first one is when a person's living an habitual sin. So when a person's living in habitual grave sin in Catholic theology, it's mortal sin in the epistle.

of John, it's, you know, it's got a similar kind of framing, but it's somebody who is maybe claiming the name of Christ, but their life doesn't show that and they're trapped or they're constantly choosing. What the enemy does in that realm, and this is according to St. Ignatius and Catholic mystical tradition, is that he will propose false pleasures that have a temporal feeling of peace usually related to dopamine and other things that come to you when you perceive something as desirable whether or not it is and your body responds to it, the sexual addictions or sexual sin is the easiest one to understand in that sense. But what the enemy will do when you're going from grave sin to grave sin is propose what St. Ignatia calls apparent pleasures. And when you propose apparent

pleasures, it has a physiological, psychological effect that, and also there's a spiritual dimension that mimics peace. So, classic example, you know, we're living together, but we love each other. We don't need to be married. And because we make each other feel so good, you know, young people, I think parents have heard that a million times over the centuries or whatever. So that's a false piece. And I really would, I want to say something very firmly. here, that it's the worst advice, most commonly given bad advice in Protestant circles and in your evangelical and Catholic, is that if you feel peace, then it's God's will. And it's just not true. It may be an indicator, but you have to test. So if somebody came to me and said,

well, I'm feeling peace about doing X, my next question is, was, you want me to help you tell me about your prayer life, tell me about your life of virtue or vice. Help me understand where you are in the spiritual journey. Are you in diapers? Are you more advanced? Where are you? Because if you're in diapers, which means you're filling up too often with the wrong stuff, then I'm going to doubt that what you're saying is from God.

Now, so that's one realm of false peace that you can have. The second realm is when you're much more advanced. And this is, of course, very clear in the writings of science. St. Paul, where he speaks about if an angel of light comes, right? He talks about how the devil can bring a false gospel, or you can be perceived with, you can be deceived with the false gospel. Well, when somebody is no longer struggling with habitual sin, they're advancing in prayer in the interior life, their relationship with Jesus is very strong. They're going from virtue to virtue. They've left behind habitual sin. Now, those people are in.

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and this is an example given by Father Gallagher, who's much better at teaching these things than I am, he wrote a great book, a series of fantastic books on Distormative Spirits, an example of a priest who's a diocesan priest so his primary responsibility is to his parishioners but he's an extraordinary speaker and so he keeps getting offered more and more speaking events and it is and the fruits are great he goes and he's moving people's hearts and lives but there's a deterioration of his of his primary state in life we call it his primary responsibility his primary sphere of authority that's been granted to him by God through the church. It's deteriorating that. And then so what has happened has been tempted to all this good, but it's doing damage to

his primary commitments that he made. That's a deception. I can give you another example. Please. I'm a father and a husband. If I am doing the same thing, that that priest was doing, and my kids are going to hell in a handbasket because I'm not home and I'm not taking care of them. But I claim these things are God's will. That's in contradiction to my primary state in life and responsibilities. So that's how I can discern.

So I have to be very careful. I rarely travel without my wife. This is a very rare occasion because she is at another event. I travel with her so that I'm always, protecting my primary vocation, my primary responsibility, my primary state, which is to be her husband, to be in union with her. Now, my kids are all grown. But those are examples. Father? And so it's wonderful to have you here. You know, Pope John Bolo II once said that teachers in the faith need to be experts in the soul. And I see that, and I hear that in you. And it's, it's

marvelous. And, you know, this question of peace is a common one that comes up in people. And you see that, you see people claiming justification for a choice or a belief based on a perceived sense of peace. Yeah. And so what is your comment on how one this, what is that manifestation of a false peace that might be implanted? by the enemy or is just a plain illusion and that piece that comes from Christ. The distinctions between those, so she has an infinite capacity for self-delusion, right? So you always have to lift the hood on that one and go, okay, you know, but the peace that that Jesus gives, it's not going to be a peace that drives you to remain in sin or persist in

sin. It is not going to be a piece that leads you away from the teachings of Scripture, which is in the Catholic Church, one of the things we revere both Catholic and non-Catholic Christian tradition. The Catholic Church calls it the highest expression of, or the highest form of public revelation, and it can't be changed or altered. So we share that common ground. If there's a piece that tries to get us to go against anything that is clearly revealed in scripture, then that's not from God. But the peace from God is going to come, it's going to lead us to holiness, to goodness, to union.

The voice of God in terms of what we're hearing, what does it sound like? It sounds like Galatians 5. Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self-control. The peace, the false peace that comes is harsh, urgent, self-justifying, it leads one away from humility. Are these distinctions you're looking for? Yeah.

Yeah. It sounds like are you, is it kind of, do we have the temptation to mix up happiness with peace? Is that what's going on? Or dopamine. Yeah, or that's, you know, I think. Dingo, bigot. Yeah.

Father, in your cases, obviously we've had on the show, so many of them are these extreme dabblings of the occult, but it's because I want something. But, you know, Dan's sharing here. Are there any stories that, you know, either we've had or you think of where this was an element where the enemy, because I'm very fascinated because I think a lot of us might be tempted to think, you know, I'm going to church regularly. I'm not doing anything as you outlined. And what really struck me is, I mean, like, you know, Father, you're a gifted speaker. And I'm wondering, you know, is that something, I mean,

some of the stage are almost as good as I am. And, you know, how does that hit as a priest? You know, like, is that something where the enemy comes in and, like, that's something I would like, well, yeah, speaking opportunity. That's great. And I'm going to bring money in for the church. That's great. But suddenly it's like, would that be the enemy father? Like, yeah, for sure. You know, so what Dan has done here is he's grounded. So your subjective experience, right, and we, we can't, all of us have a subjective experience. It's the experience of how I perceive things as me. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that to have one. But you've got to make sure that it's one that's healthy.

And the way to do that is it has to be anchored outside of you. Totally true. Into stuff that is unchanging and stuff that is by its nature healthy for you. And, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've encountered somebody who has justified an action, an action that is objectively spiritually unhealthy, dabbling in the occult, having an extramarital affair, fornicating or so forth. But I sense Christ's peace in it. I'm more close to God now than I ever have,

because my illicit boyfriend teaches me scripture, and we have spiritual lessons all the time. And so there's, and yeah, and it's crazy, like people fall for this stuff. And so sin has a way of presenting itself as tantalized. And if it didn't, it would be sin, right?

We wouldn't do it. We wouldn't like it. You wouldn't want to pursue it, right. We wouldn't do it. Yeah. Like, so it doesn't, it doesn't come at you tasting like rotting cabbage. It comes at you tasting good.

Yeah. It's easy to go down. Yeah. And so the only way to purify yourself from the false, from the illusion, is to anchor your experience in that which is objective.

So by different, it has to be outside of yourself because you can't, none of us can, I can't trust myself from start to finish. I've got to be looking at these signposts outside of me.

They are the measure. Not my feelings, not my pleasures, not what suits me, not because it aligns well with my particular path right now that, you know, cut off from everything else

and cut off from objective judgment. And my friends, they'd be telling me, hey, you're going down a wrong path. Nope, I've made a decision that this is right. The only way to keep yourself in safety is to anchor yourself to these objective things. And sometimes they're going to make you, they're going to force you to say no

to some things that you really wanted to. So are you, and it's almost, if only there was a scripture that says, right, you know, there's a way that seems right to a man, right? But in the end, it leads to death. I'm curious for both of you, you know, since we're primarily sure about spiritual warfare, so at an ontological level,

is the enemy looking and saying, you know what, I can't get Dan in the normal ways that I can go after, like other folks. So I'm going to actually try and, you know, in like engineer circumstances to lure you into distraction. I want to make this practical for all our viewers out there who are thinking, okay,

because, you know, Paul obviously reminds it. It's Paul or Peter. It says, hey, I want you to be aware. Like, we have someone scheming against us. And I can't say the number of times I've woken up and I've been gone a wonderful prayer journey. And then I heard you say in an interview, you never miss your prayer. And I thought about that because I didn't get to my prayers this morning. I thought you tell Dan that.

But how for the average listener right now watching? Like, how is the enemy coming at them and how can they be aware of this? Like, what actually is happening? And are you asking that in terms of peace or are you asking just in a general sense? kind of in general, however you want to take it, but in a general sense, I think a lot of people watch this is going, okay, I don't want to be unaware of how the enemy is coming after me, but I also don't want to look around and go, oh, the speaking opportunity is must be the devil. But like, it sounds like he does create circumstances that sound and look at it and seem really cool. Because, you know, we're talking about, you're mentioning like overt sinful thing, but what's really, you know, sneaky to me is just like, which you mentioned with like a really cool opportunity. Because all of us are like, look at it. It seems perfectly right. Yeah, I don't know. You want to take that one first? You know, the enemy, as we were talking about this,

the image that came to mind for me is at the transfiguration of the Lord. So the Lord goes up the high mountain and he doesn't take everybody, and he doesn't even take all of his apostles, he only takes a handful. And only they perceive this great moment that happens. And so our Lord receives this revelation from Moses and Elijah, the two great prophets of Israel. And we don't know what they say to him. And I've always found that fascinating.

So the Lord is given his marching orders, if you will, by the two prophets of the Messiah. And so he's given these final instructions, if you will. And whenever, you know, the site of Elijah is the sign. the redemption, the work of the Messiah is about to happen now. So he's got this. He's got empowered. We see this great sign with the voice of the father. Come down the mountain and the devil with amazing and blinding speed sets up a parallel

transfiguration mocking the father through the father of the possessed boy. right so there's this possessed boy completely under domination by evil and you see the father who in this scripture presents himself as an obnoxious person and and you can see in the lord what's going on here what the devil is presenting is not the the lord is very aware of it because it hurts him and you see it in his responses uh you know when when when when the father is not so he's not the father is very aware of it because it works him and you know when when when The father asked him, you know, can you, can you help us? Is there anything you can do? Is there anything I can do?

How long will I have to be with you, faithfulness, generate? Like, how long do I have to be with you? Now, if any one of us responded like that, you know, any one of us pre-ed set at church, you know, somebody would go immediately to the bishop, and this is what the priest said. We would be called down to the chancery and have a strip torn off of us. But nobody, nobody can say that to the Lord. in this context, say, hey, you're being, you're not being very Christel.

You can't say that to Christ. But the point is that the devil sets up his own parody to make your question, to make you feel you are on the wrong path. What the father just did there right now,

you can't put any faith in that. Look at how I control this boy here right now. I flop up around. He's under my power. So the father discloses, like, the demon inside him often tries to throw them in the fire and in the water to destroy you. Who's fire in whose water? Christ has identified himself as at the light of the world and as living water. So what the devil was trying to say, Don, you're not for these elements.

It's under my control. Under my domain. I own them, not you. and spit that whole enterprise, that whole unfolding there. You know, and up to the end where, you know, a crowd is gathering because they recognize Jesus says they had a great exorcist, this is great, this is great entertainment for a Tuesday after. I mean, this is better than any professional wrestling match that you could get back in the day.

So you have, you have this boy that is actively manifesting, he's been provoked by the Jewish exorcists. Here you have the exorcist, the undisputed heavyweight champion, the non-defeated, Jesus Christ. And it says, he sees the crown gathered and he dispatches the devil. He lives.

Right? Because he doesn't want to be a spectacle. He doesn't, he, it's all about the father and anything that doesn't center on the Lord of the universe, that primordial God

head and what he wants Jesus wants no more so all to say there are a million pleasurable things out there and they can be they could have good spirituality integrated in them but in

a very bad and the devil is a master at that so unless you are grounded in revelation unless you have a connection to the church right A Christian was never meant to be a maverick.

He was never meant to be a lone ranger. Unless you are engaged in the work of Christ, in incarnating Christ in the world, at whatever level you are capable of doing that. And that's another way of saying being a disciple, disciple forms of the disciples, then you're a vulnerable, and you can't trust your spiritual instincts.

Yeah. I want to take off on one thing Father said and flip the script a little bit. So we started talking about peace and false peace. That's a harder thing to deal with. But Father talked about how the enemy will seek to discourage. And when you look at the progress of the soul, so we talked about the state of soul

where somebody's circling the drain, as a friend of mine would say, where he's just not really living out the faith and really struggling. Well, but there's often with that person who really wants to get free, and I was one of them, you do, through intensely fighting sin, and, you know, Jesus literally saved me and gave me a purpose to live. And since then, my goal has been to relentlessly remove anything and everything in me that's not of him.

So that St. Ignatius calls moving intensely from good to batter. So the mortal sin to mortal sin is rule number one in the first set of rules. Rules number two through 14 are about how does the enemy work with people going intensely from good to better. And the enemy works in a way to bring darkness, discouragement, despair, distrust, disorientation, confusion, sadness, tipidity, slothfulness, all of these things to press in on the believer so that they, it will inhibit the progress that they will make by giving themselves more fully to the Lord. So that's the bigger problem that I work on. As an example, I did a survey of thousands of faithful Catholics. It was a little shocking to me, actually, who were all very much interested in a deeper kind of life of prayer,

Carmelite realm. And I didn't realize how common my experience was, because I grew up in such darkness that I had to battle for my existence and I still even struggle now. But when I surveyed them, I discovered that eight out of 10, and I think it's worse than that, but we'll just take them for their word, struggled with negative thoughts that were out of control or that they didn't want,

they struggled with dealing with those things, eight out of 10, hourly, daily, weekly, monthly. 80% of these devout Christians. That's when I realized, I wasn't alone and that my experience wasn't unique. And of course, many people have suffered way more than I have and some less, but I learned that that's the primary battle. And this is why St. Paul in the New Testament,

when he speaks of what the battle really is, he said, we were not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, right? In Corinthians, he says, we're in a war, and we have divine power to do what? to dismantle, if you will, the lies within us, he calls him strongholds, which is the same, it's a language used for fortresses and things within us

that militate against truly what it means to know God. Because if you know him, he's irresistible, and you're going to follow him, right? So he says we're in a war, we have divine power, and we have to exercise that power by doing what? taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. And when you begin to actively, and this is to a very practical sense as an example,

when you begin to at, one recognize that not every thought in your head is yours and you shouldn't listen to them, that there are lies that we believe, wounds that we have that militate against us understanding the goodness, the love, the glory, the beauty of the kingdom of God and the way of Jesus.

when you understand how that all works, then you know how to fight, so then I have a thought that comes into my mind. I had one today, I'm going to see if I can recall it. Something stupid I said at one point, and it came in just randomly into my head. What is my reaction, in Jesus' name? Yeah, I'm a complete idiot.

Great, thanks for sharing that with me again. He's paid the price. He's won the victory, and I'm going to be fine. St. Catherine of Sien, I used that same, spiritual warfare method of just saying yeah whatever yeah i'm a broken sinner yeah i said something stupid so what you know the lord redeems all things so it's understanding how to deal with that with all of that darkness doubt despair and narcissism which are the opposite of faith hope and love and how they manifest in us and knowing how to fight which then allows us to exit out of

the realm of constant manipulation to negative thoughts and most of the momentapeuticions and emotions, feelings, whatever it is that drive us, by the way, always precede sin, always precede decisions that we make that are bad decisions, and recognize a lot of that. Yes, there are three sources of inspirations that affect our humanity, our spiritual reality. The good angels, if you will, all that is from God, the bad angels, all that is from the devil, and then our own brokenness. Sure. Right. So those are always influences. But the enemy is always at work to ride our weaknesses, to ride us down into darkness, so we'll make bad decisions. That's an easier thing to talk about than how to deal with consolations because it's universal. So it sounds like, I mean, one thing that I'm hearing that's immensely freeing is that I think a lot of us might be prone to despair because you read scriptures like, oh, I have the mind of Christ and he who sins does not love God. I was just going through First John of the day. I thought, man, John, like, you know, we need some nuance here because.

because, like, I love God and I still sin. And he says, therefore, you're of the devil. I know. But there's an important interpretation. He was lonely on an island by himself. Well, he was angry guy. No, this is not true. But, of course, though, a proper understanding of what he's saying in those epistles is habitual.

Yeah, well, and that's what I'm finding so freeing about this, is that you're saying, you're saying, you had this survey done. And for a lot of Christians who are thinking, you know, oh, man, because I could see the enemy just coming out saying, you think you're so advanced in the faith. And you might actually be, like, I am fundamentally, while still in major need of, you know, I'm like that church in, is it, Barcelona that's never finished, you know, but it's looking better every day, you know. I suppose a grotto from area.

But it's like, but I look at where I was and I go, man, it's, Lord, thank you for where you've taken. I'm so much of a better person than where I used to be. But I could see, you know, like you mentioned, all these people dealing with all these terrible thoughts and negative. And I, you know, I wrestle with that stuff too. And you might be tempted to think, oh, I'm actually not that. I really haven't made that much progress.

And what I'm hearing, and Father, I'd be curious if you grew this, too, as it sounds like, actually, that might be a badge of honor is that you, in some sense, as you progress up the spiritual and the spiritual life, the attacks are not going to be, for the most part, the Ouija Board, right, and the Freemasonry attack and the yoga attack. Those are early. Yeah, those are level one bosses. But it's like, oh, no, for the longer period, it's like, you actually, no, now you're going to be wrestling with self-doubts and battle the mind. And is that the main minefield for spiritual warfare that we, the average person is going to face? Certainly for myself and Dan, please comment on if you find this, your experience as well. There is one of the blessings that we find kind of in modern culture, modern society, is an attempt to empower the end of the world.

by developing a sense of self-dignity. So that in Western society, the individual kind of forms, there's a notion that the individual is the basic unit of society. Now, there are healthy aspects to that view. They're unhealthy aspect in that view, but focusing for a moment, on one healthy aspect is how we are taught that we are not nothing and that we can make a difference in the world, that we do have a role in society, you have a role in our organization,

we have a role in our families, and so we're not nothing. So we are important and we are valued and we might look differently. We may have a different appearance than other people, and that's fine. etc, et cetera, et cetera. One of the things that I find, one of the ways in which we are that the modern

ethos, if you will, doesn't help is it puts no limit on a kind of, what is the term for? A self-development, self-empowerment.

So there are no there's no notion of denying the self some kind of development or empowerment for the sake of a greater good. So do whatever you want and make no excuses for it. So you see that, and where I see people getting into great trouble with that with regard to spiritual warfare stuff is they're curious. about something. They're curious about the occult. They're curious about, you know, hey, I've never had a,

you know, I've kind of followed the rules my whole life with regard to being faithful to my wife or being faithful to my husband. And I'm going to see like what the forbidden fruit tastes like on the other side. And modern culture doesn't really give you enough of an apparatus. us to veer you away from that, right?

It may make you aware of consequences of like, well, if you're discovered, you know, your partner might be hurt, there might be a filing for the, so as long as you keep it a secret, right? So there's no, there isn't a sufficient capping of people's appetites and desires. And in fact, they're encouraged to ride them as far as they could go. Would you sense that same kind of thing? I think another, just coming at it again from something you touched on, which is identity, when people understand their identity and that they have greater purpose and meaning

and that all of the drives of their lower nature and all the temptations of life are not what it's all about, but that this is just a temporary place where we're getting ready for the rest of eternity. When people get a sense of their true identity, which isn't, you know, as Father Martin spoke about in terms of the cultural lies, they, you know, they see themselves differently and in a way that is no longer imprisoned by their passions or their lower nature. As an example, Father Martins, when I first saw them,

when I walked in, he said, you've lost weight and, you know, you look more trim and more fit. And the reason is, is because I had a major medical crisis and just had to get some things fixed. Well, I used to hate working out, and I used to say I hate working out. And I wasn't a person who worked out. But what I've done is I've said, no, that's not good stewardship. You know, God loaned me the body, and I need to be good steward. So now I am a person who works out.

I work out all the time. my identity shifted to a more properly ordered sense of who I am in Christ and need to take care of my body so I can serve well as long as I can serve. Another one is we talked about habitual sin. People are shocked when I speak publicly and say, it is not normative. Now, I didn't say common. That's different than normative. It is not the norm or the desire of God, which is powerfully enunciated in the epistle. of John that we've mentioned, it is not normative that we live as slaves to our lower natures

to sin to the enemy. That is not the Christian life. We are called to something higher than that. And not only are we called, but we're equipped. Not only are we equipped, we have all of heaven, one of my favorite passages in the catechism is, and I'm going to say it a little different translation, but the entire divine economy is ordered that we might come to union with God. What does that mean? Peace, freedom, love beyond measure, joy beyond measure, unassailable by anything that comes at us in this life. That is what a Christian is called to be and to know. And so when we have that identity, I think that pushes out and begins to reject all of those other counterfeits that the world wants to place on us and that's how we it's part of the way to

pathway to freedom to live in freedom is who are you really and scripture is filled with you know exhortations about you're a child of god you're free you're adopted by him you are loved Ephesians one you're set apart before the foundation of the world I mean I could quote scripture after scripture that says you know you are deeply loved and desired and I and I want And I've come that you may have life. You know, the thief comes steal, kill, and destroy. But I've come that you might have life and that in abundance. That's what we're called to.

That's our identity. And I think that's liberating. And but everything else that the world has to offer is enslaving us, piece by piece, part by part. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Identity is so important. For years, I fought against the idea the skincare actually mattered.

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Now, I know this is not the point. It's funny. So many of you write on the show and like, hey, can you tell more demon stories and when's your next Ouija board episode coming out? And I said, I don't know, play with one. Let us know how it goes. But don't do that. Don't do that. But, you know, Dan, you've been very open about the fact that you, you know, you've seen this firsthand. And I just don't know if you can get enough warnings about how real this is. And there's it's really interesting. One of the first. conversations Father Martins and I had about doing the podcast was, is that, and I recently got to write an op-ed on this, but we see this overall decline in organized religion over the last

decades, and yet this persistent belief in witchcraft, the occult, et cetera, is like there's a void and it's being filled with something. And you have a first, you know, first-hand account to this and kind of like front-row seat to this. I'm curious. For those who just say, I don't know, I like the show, the stories are fun, but like this, really? I mean, this is all. crazy town so can you just you know i wish i don't know father if you've thought about this but i i've been in uh 24 full right exorcisms uh all of which were movie level junk happening i know a lot of exorcisms are mundane and you know i i've never experienced you've been sitting on you've been bearing the lead on that one dan so we're going to have to get some i'll see some details on

that now i haven't experienced anything mundane in the spiritual world. The blessing for me, of course, is faith in just seeing the power of God and seeing even a diminutive little priest who's incredibly humble and small and nobody would think, oh, there's power, and then watching him in an exorcism laugh at a demon. He giggled at a demon who was cursing at him and trying to manifest its power and seeing the juxtaposition of how God works with through the humble to to vanquish the evil but um yeah i mean i i grew up in a situation where my mom was suffering and uh jewish but didn't know her faith very well still to this day doesn't even though she we went to synagogue we have you know satir meals we had orthodox

Jews in our family. So there was a kind of faith, but she suffered and looked to the occult to find answers. And as father would attest, sometimes when you call into the darkness, nothing comes, but unfortunately, sometimes when you call into the darkness for answers,

something comes, that's why we have exorcists, you know. And unfortunately, in my home, something came when I was a child, and it, though, you know, I was on Lila Rose recently, and she was the first one who really started digging into this with me, and I was like, wow, you know, I don't know if I really want to talk about this, but it was a good experience for me to deal with, you know, some of this.

But the only way I can describe it is that I was terrorized as a child, and it wasn't just night terrors. Because sometimes it happened when I was fully awake in the middle of the day. and if you can think about the thing that scared you the most in your life and maybe put that on a scale of one to ten of terror, fear, whatever, amplify that times 100,000. That's what it feels like. And I wasn't possessed.

I mean, I don't think. I never required full-right exorcism to get free. I did require some deliverance. but the terror and the experience is beyond anything I've ever seen in a movie, anything that you can explain, and it nearly drove me to suicide. Because even when I became a Christian as an evangelical, what happened was, and Father can attest to this,

sometimes they lay dormant until they get confronted enough, and you make them uncomfortable enough. I remember Adam Bly told me one time that he had a woman come to him and she was possessed, and the demons were asking him, because she had started to pray, and the demons are asking him to get them out of her

because her spiritual life and her orientation toward Jesus was increasing, which was making them more uncomfortable. So when I became Christian, the assaults got intensified. Wow, and when you say your mom got dabble to me called, what was that, were we talking, like, psychics? Fast live reading, psychics, the full menu.

Horoscope reading, esoteric Jewish, you know, I can't remember the name, it's not the Talmud, but it's the Kabbalah stuff? Kabbalah stuff, yeah, that sort of thing. Just very, and in our home, you know, the library is stacked with Edgar Casey, and, you know, all of these, you know, non-Christian, false, religious, mystical junk. But she was looking for answers, and because of that, it ended up afflicting me in a horrifying way. You know, I had a friend in college whose parents were really into, it's not Don Gujote, Don Juan. Don Guillaute is great. I love that, but Don Juan, it's the Carlos, I've read his name, but it was a book about this, like,

shamanistic mysticism and really big about taking these, taking Piotte and inviting spirits and I, and he woke up, and it was really interesting, I had three friends in college that I met over the, who didn't know each other over the course of like four years, and all of them described the same instance of having some book or something like that. And then a shadow figure would appear at the end of their bed and jump onto them.

And in two of the cases, it was tell them you have to submit to me. The other one just like jumped into them. And it was the same description of a shadow, was darker than some of they've seen. And they should go, yeah, I was like, that was weird, and they woke up. And I was like, wow, I shouldn't deal with that. But it's interesting that, I mean, I think to all the parents watching, too,

I mean, it's like, wow, to think about maybe your mom had no idea, that's like, oh, she didn't have any intention of that happening. Yeah, of course. And you go, that's just to think. And you spent so much of your life terrified, right, because of the decisions of a parent like that. Yeah, I mean, there were periods. So after I became a Christian, so some of it faded a bit,

Then I came to Jesus, and then what happened was I was memorizing scripture because I found that to be incredibly soothing and powerful. Every time I read the New Testament, I had consolations or much of the time when I did. So I memorized a lot of the New Testament. But then I would have horrifying nightmares of, I think there was a particular entity in a particular place in one of our homes. And the nightmares would always take me back to that. And I don't remember, I've even gone to therapy to try to figure out what happened if I needed it, you know. But I've never found anything to go any deeper. So I've had these horrifying nightmares and I would wake up screaming scripture over and over.

And then I started to see manifestations during the day. This is as a Christian. Very confusing to me, by the way. And then my pastor, I went to him and I said, I can't deal with this anymore. I can't live with this anymore. And so he said, I can't help you, but I know another pastor who understands in deliverance ministry.

And he, and what's fascinating, Father, is it was very Catholic what he walked me through in that he had me list out every sin that I could remember that I had done. He had me list out any occultic involvement that I had chosen or any that was pushed upon me, and then he walked me through them

and had me renounce them in Jesus' name. So it's almost like a confession in a way. It doesn't have the power of the priesthood, but to renounce them in Jesus' name and to embrace God's will, I don't remember exactly how it all went, but there was one I got to that I couldn't speak. And so, and you know this is classic stuff, right?

Renounce easy, renounce easy, this one, I couldn't. speak and it felt like 20 minutes went by where I was unable to talk and then as soon as I was able to to in essence confess that sin and what I had done which had to do with me at my own choice to be involved in the occult then I felt something lift and I could say it and then after that deliverance session I never had dreams those dreams anymore for my entire life never had dreams of that room, that closet, that situation, whatever it was. And now I've had other issues, but that went away.

And I think it was a, I don't know, I don't know what your opinion is about this, but to me, and this is my bias, theologically where I am now, is I don't think that someone who's truly fully possessed can be liberated in that way. I think it was an oppression, not a possession, but I don't know. I don't know. You know, and I don't know that I know either. But my experience with dealing with people who are possessed,

that the state of possession is on a scale, and it ebbs and floats. And there are times where on its own, There's a release in the person such that there's a greater amount of freedom, such that through an act of simple renunciation, that can bring about that and higher liberation. Yeah. And even as an exorcist, and this is a thing I encounter so often with people who come for this kind of ministry, is they think what the priest does is simply do some. ritual, some kind of Christian magic on them. You know, get out your book and your magic dust or, you know, whatever magic water and put on the holdup of crucidics, wave it around, and that's it.

And then, you know, I won't be late for my care appointment at 430 kind of thing. And, you know, and our ministry, you know, our prayers within the right of exorcism and everything around that that we might bring into that, is only to free the person enough to get them to make the choice and renounce what you need to renounce. Can I say it another way? Sure. Your job is to beat up the demon enough as an exorcist so that it creates some relief and pressure

so that the individual can exercise their will in the name of Jesus to be free. Is that accurate? You bet. Yeah. Wow. And so I also just, I want to throw a bone, you know, relic joke, but I want to throw a bone to our Protestant listeners too in that it's cool to hear that, you know, because we actually do get quite a few notes from people saying, why do you allow, you know, they're like, we know it's Ryan, but like, why does father permit, you know, heretics on this show to talk about, like, only priests can deliver you. And we're like, well, you know, again, without going into any question about the power of the priesthood or anything, but I think it's really cool to hear a testimony that you went to a spirit-filled, godly pastor who believed. And I mean, Father Martin's taught me a lot about Father Gabriel Amorth, and we used his book for some inspiration for some of the interviews. We did a deep dive on him. And he mentioned having demoniacs that he would take for people suffering. And he would take them

these Pentecostal prayer groups because he said, paraphrase, he's like, I want to be around a bunch of people who currently I trust and believe in the power of Christ to like remove this stuff. So I just, I appreciate you sharing that you found some healing through this deliverance ministry. And I a lot of people might be tempted to say, oh, I'm not going to get any help if I can't get the exact thing I need right now. Yeah, belief in Jesus, in a sense, transcends everything, right? Authentic faith in Jesus transcends everything. Father Martins and I, of course, believe the fullest expression of that reality is in the Catholic Church. There's no doubt about that. But there's no doubt that I was healed in the name of Jesus before I became Catholic. Now, after I became

Catholic, I went through another deliverance, and then I met with an actresses to just see if my lack of ability to sleep was rooted in anything spiritual, which he determined it wasn't. It's probably just physiologically kind of worked into my DNA now because I was so terrified as a child, and I may never have, you know, nights where I'm just able to sleep. I don't have the nightmares anymore, but my sleep is so bad, and that is what it is. but and so the other thing is the jews exercise before before the messiah came on scene and we even have that in the new testament the seven sons of sceiva were not what we saw was the was the end of their actresses in ministry not the beginning they were they were exercising their ministry and then what happened was

they encountered a demon that was far more powerful than them and understood better that they didn't necessarily actually believe in the name of Jesus. They were just using it in a kind of a ritual way. I mean, that's my reading of the passage. And they got their rear ends handed to them, right, because they did that. So, yeah, I mean, I can't deny what happened to me by the great grace of that, that prophet, that Baptist pastor who really did truly believe. Now it is my desire, of course, that we have full unity and communion and all of that.

but it's true. It is, you know, the name of Jesus really is, really is powerful. Even out of the mouth of someone who doesn't believe, much more so someone who does. And then I think, I can't deny that I believe in the fullness of that reality is in the Catholic Church. Never, ever, has the Catholic Church said that only a Catholic priest can deliver someone from Jews.

Never. I mean, the ritual of that chrificism is a specialized ritual that is designed and written for priests. And that's embedded within it. So if a non-priest is reading it, that person is claiming the identity of a priest. An authority. An authority.

And so it's a lie. So you're trying to attack the Father of Wives with lies, with his own fruit. So that's going to fit. Nevertheless, your dignity as a baptized Christian makes you a child of God the Father, gives you Christ as your Savior, gives you the Holy Spirit as your sanctifier.

And the gifts of the Spirit have been infused within you. You are grafted onto the body of Christ. The saint become members of your family. You are grafted onto the family of Christ. That gives you an incredible dignity. And Christ acts through the dignity. And that's the key. Christ acts through that dignity.

He is the Bureau of Escort. He is the vanquisher of demons. He is the one that wants to get that work done, and he's the one that does it. So in humility, we always defer to him. And however, he wants to do something. He has every right to have it done that way. Absolutely.

And I'll do a rare moment actually praise Father Martins with him in my presence, but we did a couple living room tours when we first started the show, and we bring out in the deep south. I want to go, you know, And you know this, right? You know, in the independent republic of Alabama,

which I imagine has even a smaller concentration of Catholics. 2% Yeah. And where it's 98% worship role tied, though, right? Right. But I remember we did these events, and he would say this, and people would walk out of this and say, wait, I just heard a Catholic priest affirm my dignity as a believer because I don't think it's intentional, but I do know a lot who are zealous, right?

And all of us, my biggest issues in theological sin are always new convert and the zeal and the confidence. And to have, I remember a huge worship leader, what came out of that meeting. And she goes, I think if I had met a Catholic priest who talked to me that way, and no indictment against Daniel, but she's like, just the people I've encountered. I was always told I was lesser and out of communion and a heretic. And all I heard tonight was a guy say, you know what? Yeah, I believe, and I'll be totally honestly, I want you to be Catholic. And I want you to come into what I believe is the fullest expression. but I care more that you are a child of God and you are baptized and you are part of Jesus's family

and that was incredibly healing for them. And you saw this like resistance against like, which is one of things I'm so passionate about like in doing the show and sharing that like love of Christ and I think kind of doing what you can to heal that. So it was really cool. So you have a real, I think there's a ministry even beyond just like affirming that and other people while still maintaining respectful differences. So.

Good. Well done. I'd be remiss. you know, the TikTok audience, be remiss if I didn't ask you. As a participant now in exorcisms on both sides of the chair, I guess is a better way to put it. Did you get a chance to listen to an XRexfiles episode or anything? I have before. I didn't be too. Yeah. I'm curious just from what you, you know, having participated, you said, I love the understatement.

I didn't witness anything mundane. But I've never heard of a mundane exorcism. But I'm curious from the show, you know, did it capture kind of some of the stuff you've seen or whatever you listen to? Was there anything that drew on any threads that you've experienced? It's funny because my experience of the show is, I was talking to Father Martins before a little bit about this, is my experience in Exorcism Ministry was incredibly disturbing, uncomfortable, and I hated it. There are some glorious, beautiful things about it,

but I was only called into it for a while to help someone because they were close to me. And so that was why. My wife has a different take on all of it. So I don't, so forgive me, I'm going to be really honest. I think what you're doing is awesome. And I wanted to support it, and you know, I've even supported you behind the scenes.

Of course, absolutely. But I don't like listening to that stuff personally because it's it's not my it's not my realm. My realm is how do I help people get not go there? How do I how do I help people get free? So Father lives in a domain unique to him and his calling and his specific designation by the church. that I live in a different one, and I don't like going to his. I'm glad he's here, but, you know, I was telling Father when I was president of EWTN News. I knew things about the church that could wreck anybody's faith.

What do you mean by that? Yeah, I'm not doing, not going there. I mean. Obviously, you knew, like, meaning scary stuff, or just stuff, though, about, like, oh, just this church is full of centers. The brokenness. Yeah. Yeah. which of course is not unique to the Catholic Church.

No. But I had a grace of living in that context every single day, knowing some horrifying things, and I didn't lose sleep over it. That's because I had a special grace for it. I do not have the grace that Father has, or even people who assist him or have assisted him in a regular base. I do not have that.

So I'm really glad you're here because I think that, And let me say a little more about that. You know, early 1900s, because of the advent of psychology, you know, the Enlightenment influence philosophically, you know, it became uncool and stupid and primitive to believe in demons. And so then, you know, exorcism kind of went away. I think that why I've supported you guys behind the scenes and why I came and why I believe in what you're doing. is because I think you're correcting a profound imbalance in the church, in a fault, a scientism, which is a worship of science as if it has all the answers, which is really silly, you know, and you're correcting the balance to get us back restored

to not an obsession with the darkness, because that's not what you're doing. You're trying to give a measured, reasonable, clear understanding of the darkness and how to overcome it, and who has overcomes it. and who has overcome it, which is Jesus, right? So that's the answer. So I support everything, but I don't read a morth. I don't read. Not a good bedtime story.

Yeah. Maybe since you've had, though, we'll call it the privilege of sitting on this stuff, maybe you could just wax a little bit on, what do you think the average person doesn't realize? And I'll speak to a couple situations. One, a lot of people ride in and say, I want to get involved in deliverance ministry. Oh, Lord. They're the last people that should be in deliverance.

You know, and you can say, hey, consider this. And then also, given your experience, you know, I've heard you talk about, like, some of the weird things, the nature of demons, how they can occupy seemingly specific spaces. They can be quite cunning. They can also be pretty scary. I'm just, you know, from maybe a distance now you've had it. You've been in the room, you know, a lot of people might say, well, Father Martin's like, he's the priest. It seems biased. But here's someone's like, I'm not clergy, and I've been in the room.

and I've seen things and etc. So maybe you could just speak a little bit to what you've seen and for things to consider before people would even think about doing deliverance ministry based on what you've experienced with demons. So every time, I don't know how your methodology, and I don't know what's like standard because I only lived in the space for a short period, but every time we went in, we went to confession first. Oh, for sure.

That's a check one. That's a given. Why? Because you don't want the demon going. Yeah, I just saw you doing this. You're a hypocrite. You know, you're, you can't tell me, you know, whatever. Obviously, the lady don't speak to demons in an exorcism.

We only pray, but of course, the priest can be subjected to that kind of humiliation or even maybe a claim that you're living the wrong way, so you have no power. It might even be legitimate if you weren't going to confession or, you know, experiencing the healing and forgiveness of Jesus. But, you know, I've been in a situation. where three grown men and two women, and it's hard to illustrate here how that happens,

but I was a holder because the victim was, I have to be careful what I say, but the victim had been abused in a particular way that the restraints had to be as gentle as possible. Interesting. And they trusted me. So I was the one from behind around, And then there was a man about your size on the right shoulder,

a man on the other side in the right shoulder, woman with left leg over leg, left leg over right leg, left arm interlocked into right arm, woman, right leg over left, interlocked. And we all were picked up off the ground by someone who could barely walk up a flight of stairs during, you know. So, so the, you know, that's real.

You know, that's real. And it's why I say, I wish, I don't wish this, but I do in a sense. I wish you could take unbelievers and have them, but I think it's dangerous. Oh, yeah. I know what you're saying. No, here's a proof.

You know, your eyes won't deceive me here. You're seeing, you know, there's something incredible happen. You know, but at the same. time, you know, the devil, in my experience, he puts on those Academy Award winning performances, what I might call them, when there's new people, impressionable people in the room, when they're not. Yeah. It's quieter.

You know, that experience that you encounter, the first time is astounding, the second, any third, maybe the 18th, by the 118th. Right. So he's like, where do I come of coffee, but like? You have coffee and an exercise? Sure. I mean, you have a dapper interest. You're more interested in making sure that it doesn't fly away than in a manifestation.

Because he become mundane. And in fact, the devil doesn't waste his energy if you'll. I mean, this is not a direct teaching. in the church, at least I don't think it is. But it's just something that I've just come to understand and I think this is the case. He does not have an infinite energy. He has to choose.

It's a creature. Where he puts it. Yeah. Like he doesn't fatigue like a human fatigues. And he doesn't wear it out like a human wears down. However, he's not infinite in his energy. Otherwise, the exorcist wouldn't have any power. power. Yeah, that makes sense.

He's got to choose where he applies it. And this is what people who, like, you know, if you're afraid, well, how do, you know, I just received this $20 back and change and I got this $10. How do I know these are not cursed? And how do I, how do I know that the bag of apples I bought in the store that they're not cursed? The devil doesn't have that kind of energy, you know, to curse the world. live your life. I don't know. Snow White, I had a bad apple.

I want to come back and double-click on something you said was really interesting and is the idea of the, you know, pummeling a demon to paraphrase, right, until it can be, until like the person can be brought forward and weak enough where they can make a choice. And probably said, so you get into a place where they can make a choice. In the cases that we've shared in Nexus files, right, sometimes, and one of the first things that really blew my mind when I met a Catholic exodus was like, hey, these things take a long. These are hours. They take a long time.

In some of the cases have been going on for years. And to my Protestant mind, who's only really exposure to that point is Jesus telling something come out and it's instantly him out. And then having read other books, and you'd be the first to say, every exorcist brings his own style and sort of flare to it. But I'm curious, in this idea of like,

the devil's not, doesn't have infinite strength, et cetera, but how do you balance the different approaches to, when you bring someone in, Do you tell, like, is it immediately you go in and say, look, we're going to start doing prayers and relics and all stuff to instantly weaken a demon? Or is there a passive period of discernment first and saying in like each case is totally unique. And you're just asking, I've often told people that I equate you kind of to being a nurse and the great physician is kind of, you're waiting for surgery instructions. So maybe you can walk us through a little bit of how that might work. Well, the way that I've always done it, I think somebody comes forward or a family of a victim.

comes forward with a complaint. And I have an intake form that I rely very heavily on that I implemented, I've designed. And so I look at the information that's there, and that information is designed to cover four areas. So to reveal what kinds of more traumatic rules and then three species of sin. Personal sin, what I would call generational sin or patterns in the family. and transfer, curses, hexets, its spouse, and so forth. And so the questions are all designed to give information in that area. So that's how I claim through.

The devil lives, wounds. Loves have come in four kinds. And so if the devil is present, then we attach to at least one of us. And so what I do is I go looking for these four wounds and start ministry for that. I never go looking for the devil. Because if the wounds are there, all I have to do is start being Christ through them. And he's going to come. So you start with love, you might say, in that sense.

Is that... I start with love. I start with, as a physician, addressing the wound here, with whatever that wound needs. And you don't have to go very long. There's a possession that the devil's going to come out. He's not going to appreciate you. you're taking it realistic

So then if an extra When the exorcism is on if you will I don't I certainly had used the ritual

But it is not The first thing that I go I pray I want it in a feel For what is there How strong it is What it is

What it is? what it is attached to. I want to get a sense of a personality because all of this is important for me to give a kind of assessment and to get an understanding as to what is the particular whole idea? Why is it here in this way?

So I'm talking to the entity, I'm listening to myself, I'm praying at the same time, I'm being attentive to the team that's in the middle. So all the radar is off because important information is coming with me through all of these different directions and I'm discerning what it is on you. And all of that is, so, you know, I never want to go into an exercise where I'm tight. So the first thing I have the tall, up of stiff coffee. So coffee then confession, or confession than coffee? I sometimes take

coffee confession. If I don't want to part with it, and if I'm stuck on time. Would you call that your cafe kism? I call it that. I may have heard you that. But all of this is to say that I don't, Christianity is a relationship with Christ. And it's Christ within you. And when we bring that, when I bring that as an exorcist in the situation, I'm very aware.

that I'm replacing or I'm attempting to replace one relationship with another. So I want to be really in tune with that relationship. And rituals don't replace that. They need in that. And so the ritual of exorcism for which I have immense respect is not the number one thing. The number one thing is to bring Christ to himself. So to bring that spirit of prayer, that spirit, in fact, I mean, one of the things that I kind of learned really long is when you encounter a demon initially is to walk in the room, and I love straight at the eyes. And I just stand in it.

I just think a little bit of a stare at it. And inside, I'm praying quietly. And I'm saying to the enemy. Christ is the future. You are nothing. You are nothing. You are even below being in pity. And so, me, I am a sin.

I am not in this right. Christ has chosen to do something with me. And I have chosen to do something with him now. And you are going down. I'll see this fire. So, folklore needs to it in the exit. only one that needs to hear that. But it sets the stage.

It sets the stage. Like, you, you are my enemy because you have chosen for Christ and you have passed. I should keep looking at me this. I'm sorry. I was wondering that, Dan, I was wondering, I'm glad he's not looking at me anymore there. So, so that, so, you know, why do I stare at the eyes? He's looking at the eyes of a Christian.

And it's not me that is important. Christ could pick me. But in this moment, I'm the one that's here, and I have him inside me. And so it's, the battle's on. Battles on. And I'm coming for you. And I think all of this, all of these dimensions are important dimensions because they are relational and each one brings Christ

in a different way, in a different matter. I look at home that session. And all of them will be every one, every one. You find one that wounds them, especially well, then gosh, keep going up. And each of them have

back to this understanding their creatures. So, you think of all other created things. You have dogs that can be extraordinarily are you ferocious, but there's a reason they put these collars around particular dogs because they have a weak area that they could be subdued, and so that eliminates that weakness. But part of any deliverance ministry or actresses in ministry is to find where is that weakness,

right, and then to push against that, and then that lessens their power. Yeah. Yeah. Dan, I wanted to ask you to as we kind of, we have to land our plane now because in the words of our Savior, right, it is better that we should go, you know? So we've got place to go.

I would love to ask you this to you, back to the theme of false peace, et cetera, and false mysticism even. And this is a tricky question, but it's something that I wrestle with a lot. We've talked about, you went to a Protestant deliverance minister and found freedom

and it's beautiful. And we've had a lot of people writing the show and say, oh, how do you know that Satan is not trying to affirm a heretical tradition by false signs and wonders, et cetera? And for me, I mean, my first response to that is, well, obviously, Jesus addressed this when the Pharisees said, you're casting out demons by demons. And he's like, that's not how that works. Right. But I have, I think for me, one of things that as I process all my theology, et cetera, is that I've just seen incredible, I've been blessed to see so much fruit, like, mentioned and fathers mentioned where these incredibly empower, like these charisms that God has dispensed

generously to just people of all different Christian expressions. And I think that's been hard for me to wrap my mind around where it's not just seem, it doesn't seem to just be mercy. It seems to be even like I have friends that have these profound dreams of things that will come true. And they get called to start these churches in like really dark and evil places. And they start them. And, you know, and I go, okay, well, gosh, God, if I'm asking this question, if I'm asking this question, And if God wants everyone to be a particular expression of the church, it doesn't seem like he's doing that right now automatically with everyone. So what's going on there? And as someone who's just had a beautiful experience with a lot of different expressions of Christianity, I'm just curious how you kind of process that.

Well, I think Jesus high priestly prayer was that we be one. And it has to be a true unity that is based on real distinctions, right? and truth. You can't, there's no such thing as unity between persons who have fundamental core disagreements

about, you know, the most important aspects of reality. I think the reason the phenomenon occurs is found in a passage in the Old Testament. God reigns in the just and the unjust and meaning,

and I'm not saying the just is Catholic and the unjust is Protestant, meaning that his great, that he desires everyone to be saved, everyone to be free. He created us for freedom and for an eternal relationship with him.

And as I said, the name of Jesus transcends all. You know, I think it's more powerfully expressed in the Catholic Church, but he's going to work with the aboriginal person or the former cannibal in Papua New Guinea who cries out to him. I think he's going to meet them where they are and take them to a deeper relationship with him that's possible for them to have in that context.

I think Romans 1 bears witness to the way he works in a broader sense than sometimes we might think. But I don't know if I'm answering a question very well, but the sort of the unifying reality of all of it is the name of Jesus really is that really doesn't mean something. it's really powerful and it really it has an effect out of the mouth of an unbeliever more a believer right but it it's just he is that powerful and that real and that's why it that's why it that's why when people really truly believe he will avail himself he will give them grace i do think that uh ultimately if if we're all open to continue and being humble, you know, I know this has some negative ramifications to it, will ultimately come to a unity in the church he established.

But he's, you know, it's an example is like the thief on the cross. You know, people say, well, you know, he wasn't baptized. And so up the sacrament. But you said it earlier, he's going to do what he wants, you know, the way he wants. And sometimes he works in the constructs that he creates. and other times he works in different ways that aren't as consistent with what we thought were the limitations or the structure that he had established.

You know, he's the Lord, so we just praise him. So I praise him for everyone who claims the name of Jesus. I don't care what stripe. But I do have an ache, a desire that we all have, the prayer that Jesus prayed, that we all be one, truly one, be realized for all who claim the name of Jesus. Absolutely, and that's my hope and prayer.

And I think about that too sometimes, because unity doesn't mean uniformity. And I do appreciate in the Catholic Church that there is a lot of beautiful diversity. Sometimes wondering, too, if a couple things had gone differently, would there be a Lutheran order instead of the Reformation? You know, it's a issue.

But, Father, anything else do you want to touch on with our guest here before we land our plane? Just to take off on that last point, that Christ, yeah, he's able to do what he wants because he's Christ. And who are we to utter a complaint if he decides to be more generous than what we have to say. He has every right, what he was. Yeah.

Amen. Wow. Well, before we let you go, I did get some breaking information from one of your apostolic successors. So I'm curious, you actually have the source of a great insult. that happened to me earlier. Perfect. I was asking

a son to give me some intel, perhaps an inside story, etc. He was come back with blanks. It was, oh, we ate Taco Bell up on the hill,

you know, and I was like, oh, that's cute, that's nice, right? He says, oh, my dad loves oldies. My dad loves oldies. And in fact,

he has this uncanny ability to remember lyrics from all these oldies. Oh, no. And I said, I love oldies. What does he like? Beatles, Rolling Stones, Fat Stomino.

Are we going to even more water? Are we going on Vigi? Is that? And he goes, no, no. Like, Pearl Jam or Creed. Now, there's two issues with that. One is Pearl Jam, I like a lot. And that was in the early 90s.

And so if that is considered by your son to be an oldie, there's much prayer there. But he happened to mention that you do a wonderful, Eddie Vedder impression. Oh, no, no, no. Even Flo is actually a liturgical right that we were hoping you would. I appreciate the request, but I'm no longer taking request. I was going to do with you because I actually do an Eddie Vedder impression too.

So you sure you want to pass on it? Yes. Is that clear enough? That is in a word, yes. Well, Father, can we get him indulgence if he does it? You get you a prayer card. amazing there's certain talents

that will never meet the light of day again so you are the one burying your talent in the sand we know what happens to them the devil's talent so sorry fine all right well as my mom said

all God's creatures got a place in the choir some sing low some sing higher some sing out loud and some just clap their hands there you go Dan where can people find out more about your work and your books etc.

Spiritualdirection.com. It's kind of the portal into everything we do. It's a portal into our Avala Institute, where we do spiritual formation for priest or religious laity around the world. So we can do everything from giving you thousands of articles, videos, whatever you want to grow spiritually to deeper formation

at a master's level or we also do formation for priests to become spiritual directors. So just the whole gamut of anything that has anything to do with the progress of the soul to union with God, spiritualdirection.com is the front door. Amazing. Awesome. So appreciate you being here.

This was such a joy.