The Exorcist Files - The Supernatural Power of the Spirit with Dr. Mary Healy

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Renown scholar and author Dr. Mary Healy joins the show to talk about the gifts of the spirit and spiritual warfareThanks to Lumen, for sponsoring this episode! Head to lumen.me/EXFILES for 20% off your purchase.Shoutout to The Lion- a fantastic aggregator of news and an amazing resource for Christian parents. Check out ReadLion.comWant more bonus episodes? Sign up for THE VAULT here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome back to The Exorcist Files, a deliverance of spiritual warfare documentation with a dose of levity, but hopefully not levitation. Today we welcome Dr. Mary Healy, a professor of scripture at Sacred Heart major seminary in Detroit, and a best-selling author and international speaker. She's a general editor of the Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture and author of two of its volumes, The Gospel of Mark and Hebrews. Dr. Healy also serves on the Pontifical Council for promoting Christian unity as a member of the Pentecostal Catholic Catholic international dialogue and is a member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission. She is one of the first three women ever to serve on the commission. So in summary, she knows her stuff. We wanted to bring you

some content around the continuing work of the spirit today. While we of course have discussed in length the tactics and strategy of the adversary, or old scratch as exorcists refer to him, we do think it's important to talk about the weapons of warfare and the gifts God has given us to emerge victorious in this spiritual battle. Now, I know many listeners are asking about new case files. Be assured, there are more in the pipeline. We do create them in batches to keep production costs to a minimum. While we wish we could deliver you 3D binaral audio each week,

that is simply not feasible, we promised season two would contain a lot of bonus episodes that address specific topics, and we are in the midst of that. The show is more than just creating reenactments of demonic activity. It also consists of interviews and topical discussions on all things spiritual warfare. Yes, I love the 3D binarral episodes too, but just know they're in the pipeline.

So with that, let's bring on Dr. Mary Healy. Welcome back to The Exorcist Files. Every day is a special day, and every episode is a great episode. But today, it's even greater than before because we are welcoming a very special guest, Dr. Mary Healy, who is broadcasting live from an Arctic tundra,

known as Michigan. She is here with us today, and I'm going to ask her to introduce herself because my mere introduction could not do her justice, but we are so excited to have her on the show. Dr. Haley, thank you for joining us. Would you introduce yourself to the fans, the few dozen who may not know who you are? Sure. Hello, everybody. I am speaking from Michigan, where it is snowing now. It's been snowing continually for about 17 years. At least it feels that way. And I teach, I have the privilege of teaching the Word of God scripture to seminarians at the Detroit Seminary, Sacred Heart,

major seminary. I also often speak at conferences and retreats. I co-edit a series of biblical commentaries called the Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture. And one of my passions is to help Catholics fall in love with the Word of God. I also have been very active in the Catholic Charismatic renewal, my whole adult life, and have served the renewal in various ways. But I also have the passion, and I believe a calling from the Lord to help Catholics be fully open to the Holy Spirit and his gifts. Amazing. So much more qualified than I am. I've read several books. She's written them. And we're so honored to have you here, Doctor. So thank you so much for bringing your wisdom today. And obviously, this is a spiritual warfare show, so we should probably start with that. But I do have to say before,

you know, I read a behavioral science study once that said you are disproportionately more likely to have a calling or profession that is somehow connected with your name. And with a name like Healy, is there any coincidence that you are studying charismatic renewal and healings? Have you thought on this irony? I can't be the first person to bring this up. You are not the first one or the 101st one who has brought that up. But speaking to what you just said, I remember having a conversation at lunch with five or six people, and we were commenting how this one couple ran a summer camp and their last name was camp or something similar to that. And then another friend of mine said, yeah, I'm a lawyer for environmental issues and my name is Green. And then they pointed to me, your name is Healy and you're into Healing Ministry.

And there were at least one or two others for whom we could say the same. So there really is something to that old phrase, Nomen es omen. Your name is often an indication of a way that the Lord is calling you to serve, an indication of an indication of your mission on earth. So never would have thought of it until a few years ago when the Lord did draw me into healing ministry. But I think it's true. And we'll have to, and we'll concede, it's not foolproof. I'm still trying to draw the connection between Ryan Bethay and Exxie. or Father Carlos Martin's and deliverance. But hey, you know, it's not a full proof,

but it's just a good general indicator, right? So you've studied the care. Maybe it would help even two to define what is the charismatic movement or renewal? Because, you know, coming from a Protestant standpoint, I think we tend to associate this with sort of the big revivals that have happened or, you know, Pentecostal churches or just, you know, the idea that the gifts are still present today, which is also, I think people should know is obviously even a debate within the Protestant circles. There are some churches that don't think they continue. I don't know many people who would say that it never happens anymore, and I'd be curious if this is your opinion, but it seems to be it's the sort of not that God couldn't do it, but it's just the degree of how normative

these gifts are. Well, I would say among Catholics, it would be very difficult to be a Catholic faithful to the teaching of the church and hold that the Lord doesn't do any miracles or superact. supernatural activity anymore. That would be so contrary to the teaching of the church as well as the lives of the saints. There are some Protestants who are strict cessationists who really do believe that there are no gifts of the Holy Spirit being exercised post the writing of the New Testament, post the era of the apostles. But that would not be true for Catholics. But to answer your question about the charismatic renewal, it is dated to a very specific event in 19, There was a group of college students from Duquesne University on retreat at a little place called

the Ark and the Dove. And they were really desiring a more fervent life as Catholics. And the two professors who were leading this group had weeks earlier gone to an interdenominational prayer group. And they went because they were seeking a deeper, richer life in the Holy Spirit. and they received this grace known as baptism in the Holy Spirit. And they didn't tell the students on the retreat about that, but they did have them read Acts of the Apostles, chapters 1 to 4.

And a famous book called The Cross and the Switchblade. And on that retreat, something extraordinary happened, something absolutely unexpected. And ironically, the students started praying for the plumbing to be fixed because the plumbing broke in the retreat center, and they went into the chapel. They asked the Lord, please give us water. Please give us water. We don't want to have to cancel the retreat. Please give us water. And it turned out the Lord did provide water in the natural sense. But the extraordinary thing that happened was that one of the students named Dave went into the chapel to thank the Lord. And the moment he walked into this chapel where there was a tabernacle with the Eucharist. He experienced the presence of God

so thick. It overwhelmed him, and he fell on his face. His shoes came off somehow. He didn't know how. And he just began laughing and weeping, overwhelmed by the love of God. He didn't know what to make of this. Eventually, he walked out of the chapel. He walked back in. The same thing happened again. other students walked in, same thing happened. And this group was absolutely gobsmacked, overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. They stayed up all night in the chapel, praising and worshiping God, weren't tired. And then gifts began to be manifest in them immediately, gifts of healing, prophecy, words of knowledge, discernment of spirits, tongues, interpretation, all of those gifts. And very quickly, this outpresenting, of the spirit spread to the University of Notre Dame, to Michigan, University of Michigan students there, and eventually it spread like wildfire around the world and now has touched the lives of some 100, 150 million Catholics. Now, many Catholics have the mistaken idea that this is something aberrant at worst or marginal at best, really not Catholic, because,

it came into us via Pentecostals, came into the Catholic Church, but in reality, this outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the charisms of the Holy Spirit, the spiritual gifts are part of our apostolic heritage. And in fact, they have always been present in the church, though more evidently in certain ages than in other ages, but it's really only in the modern era that they were neglected. So rather than criticizing the charismatic dimension as being something Protestant or something aberrant, we should thank our Pentecostal and charismatic Protestant brothers and sisters for helping us rediscover what belongs to our heritage. And so I do thank those in my own life, those Protestants who have really helped me draw closer to the Lord and understand more deeply the

gifts of the Holy Spirit, but also those going back to 1967, who helped Catholics become more open to and recognize more what actually belongs to our own tradition. Interesting. I mean, I do want to get to spiritual warfare because I can feel the impatience of our regular listeners. But just because we're on this topic, you know, I'm curious because, for example, when you read in Corinthians, Paul saying to eagerly desire that you may prophesy, right? And I've heard it taught in various ways that that's a very strong word. It's not, it's a desire. It's almost lust after prophecy, et cetera. And obviously it can be a challenge to try and discern like, you know, you hear some of the cessationist arguments like, well, that was for that time, et cetera.

And what is prophecy even? And because obviously we can see charismatic. We know how this stuff can be abused. But I'm just curious, since we have the expert in the house here, but when you read the, the, the, the, scriptures today and you read Paul's letter like that or you hear him kind of almost flippantly talking about tongues like, you know, I'm glad I speak in tongues more than all of you. Like, is that something that we could extrapolate and from a Catholic perspective is that, you know, what's the proper way to interpret those as far as what gifts, you know, can be expected to be potentially present if not everyone obviously not having, you know, full anointing in every gift? Yeah, the word he uses, the word St. Paul uses in Greek is zealuta, which literally means,

be zealous for, be jealous for, be desire. It can be translated, strive eagerly for or earnestly desire. And he says it twice in one Corinthians. Earnestly desire the charisms, earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. There's absolutely no indication that instruction is only for the early church or only for the first century. He is exhorting us as baptized Christians to seek the spiritual gifts, the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. And that means we can ask for them. We can grow in them. We can practice them. And I think we can really make an analogy with natural gifts. Say a gift for a sport like basketball. Some people are just born with an aptitude that will make them good basketball players.

They might have height. They might have agility, speed, etc. But, but, But having that gift alone is not going to make you a great basketball player. In fact, it's not going to make you a basketball player at all. You have to actually play the game. You have to be coached in it. You have to practice. You have to watch other players, good players, to see what they do. You have to practice some more.

You have to really learn the game, et cetera. So analogously, with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, they are given freely by God. And yet, we can grow in them. We can activate them. And the reality is many Catholics, many other Christians have not activated the gifts because they don't even know they have them. They don't really know what they are. They don't know how to activate them. But because Scripture so exhorts us to use them, because these gifts are powerful for building up the body of Christ, they're powerful for building up those who are already believers, and they're powerful for bringing new people to Christ, in other words, for evangelizing. So we shouldn't be indifferent to them. Amen. Father Martin's here. I want to do a quick plug for one of the most powerful tools I've seen for breaking free and growing closer to Christ. Exodus 90. The Exodus 90 challenge begins this year on January 20th. But this isn't just a 90-day program.

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This is your chance to break free, refocus, and rediscover who God is calling you to be in the new year. It starts January 20th. So go to Exodus 90.com slash X files to learn more about Exodus 90. That's Exodus 90.com slash EXFiles. files to join tens of thousands of men from all over the world for Exodus 90. Again, it begins Monday, January 20th. God bless you. So it's the old early bird special for Ryan now.

So take the next step to improving your health. Go to Lumen.me.me. slash X files to get 20% off your Lumen. That's L-U-M-E-N-D-M-E-X files for 20% off your purchase. Thank you, Lumen, for spills. sponsoring this episode. Yeah, and I think also some people would say, you know, obviously, and just because they can be abused doesn't mean that we throw them out. Because obviously, you know, anyone who's been involved in any charismatic circles has had an errant word.

And I think that's actually something I struggle with is because, you know, there have been moments when I felt like God put something on my heart to say to someone. And I tend to be like, if I'm wrong, like, I'm not saying, you know, thus spoke at the Lord. It's like, hey, I think this might be something. And if it lands, great. And if not, I stepped out in faith. And I tend operate on God appreciates perceived obedience, even if it's not him. But I'm curious, how is prophecy, you know, you hear a lot about how in the Old Testament, right, the standard for accurate words was very high. I think right, punishable by death, if you prophesied incorrectly.

And the New Testament, there is a sort of, you know, shift, it seems. And I'm curious, how can we look at, you know, some of these gifts in the New Testament? And from a Catholic perspective, how would the gift of prophecy be defined? and practiced by believers today. Yeah, great question. Well, first of all, I'd say it's not so much that the standard is different because anyone who uses a gift of the spirit like prophecy or any other gift to lead people into idolatry, which was the reason for the death punishment, capital

punishment of a false prophet in the Old Testament, they are still today guilty of a grave sin and will be under God's judgment for that if they are leading people away from Christ, leading people into idolatry. Now, the church doesn't apply the judicial punishments of the Old Testament. Those don't apply anymore. But nevertheless, the gravity of the need to use prophecy and other gifts rightly remains. Now, that doesn't mean that a prophet is infallible. You know, as Catholics, we believe that the Pope has the gift. of infallibility and the bishops when they teach in union with him and the whole people of God when they are believing in union with the settled teaching of the pope and the bishops, the magistrateum

of the church. So they have that gift. But individually, we are not infallible whenever we give a prophecy. And so just the way you said it is the right way to deliver a word. We should never project a superior attitude, thus saith the Lord. I am giving you this word that you must accept. It's really up to the recipient to discern in the Lord whether a prophetic word is correct for them. Now, there are cases where a person already has a certain authority as a spiritual director or a priest who is guiding a person. that type of thing, and they can give a word with more authority. But even still, it's not an infallible word. And so we always have to recognize the need to discern every gift of the

spirit, especially that the word gifts need to be discerned. And discernment too is a gift of the Holy Spirit. So we carry it out by just examining, is this word in keeping with Scripture? Is it in keeping with the teaching of the church? Is there anything in it contrary to Scripture or the teaching of the church? Those would be negative criteria that show that a word is not actually from the Lord. Pastors say sometimes the boundaries, he said, for any prophetic word, he's like, it's like bowling lanes. And he said, reality and scripture. And if the word is violating those, at some point you find out if it was true and if it violates the word, it's obviously, those are the two guardrails that kind of has to stick.

and I'm curious. So when Paul says prophecy and what you're talking about, is this essentially just hearing from God for someone? Is this separate? And then would like a word of knowledge or a prediction fall under like the same kind of, you know, family of this gift? If we were to kind of break down prophecy, what could examples of that be playing out in the believer's life?

The two most common examples of how prophecy is used today in my experience would be one giving a public word to a gathered group in the context of a prayer meeting, maybe a retreat, maybe a conference. But usually it's in the context of praise and worship. So everyone is coming into the presence of the Lord, worshiping the Lord. And then someone senses a word from the Lord for the group. And usually it's a very upbuilding word. It's an encouraging word.

sometimes it's convicting, sometimes it's challenging, but never ought to be condemnatory or coming from an angry or judgmental spirit. I mean, right away, those attitudes would be a sign the person is really not speaking from the Holy Spirit. So that would be one example of how prophecy is used. The second example would be one-on-one, individual prophecy. And that's where you are having an interaction with another person. you're praying for them and you sense that the Lord is saying something to them personally,

individually. And you deliver it with a kind of humble reverence. Like, I think I'm hearing the Lord say this. Does that resonate with you? You're giving the person freedom. You're not imposing it on them, but you're giving them freedom to receive it as a word from the Lord if it resonates with them. and that can be very powerful.

I know of so many instances, and in fact, in my own life, I have received prophetic words from people that have really built me up and encouraged me and drawn me closer to the Lord. Has there ever been a word, you know, when Paul talks about like the unbeliever and obviously you're a believer, but, you know, that kind of word where the person is just like, they feel so seen in that moment. I remember that anecdote from Charles Spurgeon, and he wasn't even a regular practitioner of this,

but there was the, he stopped his sermon, and there was a shopkeeper who was violating the Sabbath, and he just pointed and he said, the Lord sees you, right? And knows this is an invitation today, right? And the guy's like, oh my gosh, right? And then he fell on his face, and he became a, you know, like renewed Christian.

And so I wonder, have you, and obviously we'll get into your time because you went with Randy Clark, and you can't travel with Randy Clark and not see something incredible. But when you talk about those examples of prophecy, has there been anything that is like, you would go, this is, the odds and the odds of this being coincidence are so wildly out there.

Or is it more just a personal, like, wow, I felt so, or that was the thing I needed to hear at that moment. What are maybe an example or two of just a profound way prophecies impacted you? Well, one striking example I know of is years ago we had a seminarian at the seminary, who was very gifted in the gift of prophecy. and he was at some event where he met a young woman that he had known in school years earlier, didn't know her well, hadn't seen her in a long time. And he began a conversation with her. And he could see that she was troubled.

And so he was asking her questions. But at one point, he said, the Lord has shown me that you have a gun in your purse and you're planning to take your life. Her jaw just dropped. And she acknowledged it was true. and because of that, he was able to persuade her to give him the gun. He later disposed of it properly, and that girl knew she was seen by the Lord and known by the Lord, and her life was spared that day. So that's a pretty striking example. An interesting example from my own life is when I was on that trip with Randy Clark,

mission with Global Awakening to Brazil in 2013, there was a little. was a Protestant there who was praying with me, and she said, I see an image of these gates opening up to you, these ornate gates, and the Lord leading you through them. And then she said, I think they might be the Vatican. She didn't really know anything about the Vatican as a Protestant, but she just said, I think that's what the Lord is showing me. And it was just a few months after that that I was invited to be a part of something called the Pontifical Biblical Commission, which meets in the Vatican. every year. And so literally those big ornate gates of the Vatican open to me every year. Well, it wasn't the pearly gates. And it was, yeah, I was like, I'd be nervous. I'd be nervous. I see the pearly gates. He was like, what? Oh my gosh. That's amazing. I, all right, I know I keep punting the spiritual, and I will get to that. But we're just on this topic. You know, Randy Clark, for those who don't know, right, is this very gifted. And what I find so interesting about him is he's not that, you know, he's not that charismatic. He's not telling jokes constantly. I mean, he's just a,

you know, a guy who's going out there saying, Lord, like, what do you want to do? It's not fire, you know, it's not fiery. And he's just so ordinary. And you see these incredible testimonies coming out of this. And so I'm curious, having partnered with a huge Protestant ministry that is doing healings, specifically physical healings, and maybe you can talk a little about that. I'm curious as devout Catholic, as someone who studied this, et cetera, you know, What is the proper way and how do you, I may reconcile is not the word, but how do you come at the idea that God is moving so mightily among the heretics as we get teased and called? Is that God's mercy?

Is it anywhere that he preaches or is it God's desire to unify? Because when you're seeing the stuff happen and you see the gifts being ministered with that you can't help but like appreciate each other more. I just find that really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. First, I should just clarify that I don't partner with Global Awakening. I went on that mission with him. And years later, I wrote a book with Randy Clark.

But I've only seen him a couple of times since then. So it's not any literal partnering, but I'm very grateful for his friendship and the many ways that he builds bridges across the divides in the Christian world. So the Catholic Church recognizes elements of truth and sanctification. in those Christian traditions that are not fully united with the Catholic Church. So even though our unity is imperfect, as Pope John Paul II said, that which unites us is much greater than that which divides us. And therefore, we have so much to learn from one another.

And I've been so edified to see how Protestants have become more and more open to learning from Catholics. particularly learning the value of our sacramental understanding, our liturgical understanding, our understanding of the communion of saints, of priesthood, and those types of things. Likewise, Catholics have so much that we can learn from Protestants. I've been so built up by seeing the godly lives of Protestants who are radically open to the Holy Spirit, radically exercising the gifts of the Spirit, not for their own sake, not to puff themselves up, but to draw others to Christ, to evangelize. And I think Catholics have a lot to learn from Protestants about how to evangelize,

how to be open to the Holy Spirit, how to activate His gifts, how to love Scripture, how to study it, how to found everything we do on the Word of God. So there's absolutely nothing contrary to Catholic teaching in our loving one another, learning from one another, doing things together, seeking to help one another draw closer to Christ. The closer we are to Christ, the closer I am to Christ and you are to Christ, the closer we are to one another, because he's not divided. Absolutely. And just to be fair, too, even though I'm trying to strike an ecumenical tone,

it's also clear from scripture too, right? That anointing and gifts is not always synonymous with truth, that God will pour out anointing and gifts on many people. Because obviously it can be tempting to say, oh, well, wherever the most healings and the most prophecy is, that must be where the actions at. That must be where God's endorsing. But to be fair from Scripture, right,

we see that anointing is not synonymous with truth or character. Absolutely. That is an excellent point. Okay. All right, good. Professor affirms. All right, I get a teacher's pet there. Okay.

All right, let's get a little spiritual warfare. We can't, we can't not, since these two do seem to be inexorably tied together. But Dr. Ely, have you, what has been your experience with spiritual warfare? You mentioned before we started that, you know, you've had some of the, we've seen the technical glitches that we often have to intercede against. I do think our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against Wi-Fi and connectivity has been my experience. And Mike equipment, so there should be an updated version for the Apostle problem. What has been your experience of spiritual warfare? And I'm curious if you'd actually heard of our show or been exposed to any of Father Martin's teachings before.

Yeah, it's not coincidental that the increased interest in spiritual warfare, in deliverance ministry, in the activity of evil spirits, has grown along with increased awareness of the Holy Spirit and how he works. There's a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit among millions of people who were previously not so sensitive to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit opens us up to the supernatural realm. And the supernatural realm is also inhabited by evil spirits who are opposed to God who are intent on destroying human beings. So, in fact, we're not equipped to wage spiritual warfare unless we are fully empowered by the Holy Spirit. and we recognize our need for him and for his gifts. So that being said, I have done deliverance ministry a few times, not many times, because it's not the calling the Lord has put on my life.

But for many years now, I have felt a strong calling from the Lord to encourage and defend deliverance ministry. A good friend of mine is Neil Lozano, the author of Unbound, who has done more than maybe anybody else to mainstream deliverance ministry in the Catholic Church. He also speaks in many Protestant churches. And he developed the Five Keys model, which is, it's simple, it's biblical, it's sound, it's solid, it's reproducible, you can train people in it. It's being used in parishes and diocese all over the world, the Protestant churches all over the world,

and countless people have experienced deliverance. and freedom through unbound. But there are those who claim that lay people can't be involved in deliverance at all, except by prayer. And I think those claims are gravely mistaken. So years ago, as chair of the Doctrineal Commission of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I, along with the International Office of the Charismatic Renewal in Rome, organized a conference in Rome, where we invited a select group of exorcists, deliverance ministers, and theologians from around the world to talk about this topic together and to put together a document that would help clarify what the church teaches and what is a sound way to practice

deliverance ministry. So we drafted that document. We brought it to the group. I basically co-wrote it with French priest, who's now a bishop. And we got lots of input. You know, the context in Africa is very different. Context in Asia is very different. We got lots of input from those people on the ground in different places and revised that document and published it. So that's my main connection with deliverance ministry is as a theologian, not so much as a practitioner, because that's not what the Lord has called me to, but on an ad hoc basis. I've done it a few times. Have you ever seen anything? This is sort of the requisite question we have to ask everyone, But, you know, have you seen anything that would at all come anywhere near in the realm of what we kind of document on the show or know anyone?

And then maybe as a follow-up, you know, what do you think spiritual warfare looks like in your life? Yes, I've seen people manifesting and on various occasions because when you come into the presence of the Holy Spirit, when there's a group of people who are really worshipping the Lord, the Lord is present in a very tangible way. It's not uncommon that stuff that has been stuffed down in a person's life will rise to the surface. Just like what happened when Jesus was preaching the gospel in the synagogue, a guy starts manifesting, right? And Jesus cast out the demon. So I've seen that on a number of occasions. There was one time where this lady started manifesting very dramatically.

And she became stiff as a board. and a group of men had to carry her out of the assembly hall where a conference was being held. I was with a small group of people who came with her into another room. We managed to get her attention, and I think that's crucial in a case of deliverance. We managed to engage with her. We didn't want to engage with any demons at all. And it quickly became clear from what she said and her husband said that there was a very painful situation in her past, rape, et cetera, and that she had never really

been healed of that wound. And that was the source of all of the demonic manifestation that was going on. So we prayed with her through healing and deliverance. And she got free. She was like a different person after that prayer ended, just radiant in the Lord. full of peace. Wow. So I've seen things like that on various occasions. It's interesting in scripture, right? Because we have just enough mention of spiritual warfare to know we have to be prepared for it,

etc. But I find that it's so interesting the almost lack of information given, you know, it seems like it's not that it's an afterthought right, but it's like, hey, be aware, this is a thing. Don't be surprised when it happens. Stand firm, resist the devil will flee from you, pray for one another constantly. So what is perhaps the proper way that you think believers can, from the scriptures, interpret, what is the right perspective to have on spiritual warfare? Clearly we should expect it.

But in light of kind of Paul and the Apostles' teaching, what would you say is kind of your advice for us on how to view spiritual warfare in a walk today? I'd say the bottom line is, be not afraid. Be not afraid. The Lord never, ever tells us to fear the devil. He has been defeated. Yes, he is an angel, a fallen angel, far more intelligent than we are, able to not read our thoughts, but to read our body language and our words, et cetera.

So we need to have a kind of healthy respect. We don't want to get interested in a way that could lead us down a very dangerous path, overly interested in the demonic realm. But keep a respectful distance and be. not afraid. And I think what the Lord said to Moses when they were trapped at the Red Sea is a perennial word for us. Stand firm and see what the Lord will do for you. Stand firm. And Paul says that in his famous passage about the armor of God in Ephesion 6, stand. He says it four times, stand therefore, stand firmly so that you can withstand the attacks

of the enemy. So the enemy wants to make himself seem much bigger than he is. He's full of bluster. He's like, I don't know, like a bear that stands on its high legs, wants to look really big. And of course, a bear can be dangerous and the enemy can be dangerous if we fall for his schemes. But if we don't agree to his lies, if we don't let ourselves be seduced by him, we have absolutely nothing to fear. So our focus should be on Christ. Our focus should be on staying close to Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, letting the Lord have his way in our lives, intimacy with Him. Because to the degree we have intimacy with Jesus, the enemy has no foothold. He can't get at us. He can throw all kinds of things at us. He can sometimes do certain damage here and there,

but not in any way that ultimately harms us whatsoever. He works so hard to make us afraid. And just one more thing, the reason the enemy works so hard to make us afraid is because he's terrified of a Christian who knows the Lord and knows who they are in the Lord. So if we were to, again, I know this is extrapolation, but if the Apostle Paul was right here

and we think about his writings, like how do you think he interpreted spiritual, warfare because it seems like it was, you know, if someone was teaching something false, he would accuse them and say, no, that's like, that's Satan operating through you. How do you think the, you know, the apostles viewed the schemes of the enemy? I mean, obviously, they were being persecuted. So in one, I'm curious, would they view the devil working through that persecution? Would it be through false teaching? When Paul says, I desired to go somewhere, but I was prevented. I'm curious, how, if we were to kind of adopt that kind of time period, how would they be looking at

spiritual warfare. Yeah, all of the above. We see in the book of Revelation that Jesus says to the church in Smyrna, the devil is going to throw some of you into prison. So the apostles would have seen external persecution as sometimes motivated by the devil. As you said, and Paul says to the Thessalonians, I wanted to come to you, but Satan prevented me. So he can actually throw literal, earthly obstacles in our way sometimes. We also see opposition to the gospel in the Acts of the Apostles. We see the magician who Simon Barre Jesus, or Elmiss, who tried to prevent Paul from bringing people to conversion. We see the young girl possessed by a python spirit or a sooth-saying spirit, pursuing Paul and crying out something that was

actually doctrinally correct, but was disrupting his work of evangelization, disturbing people, creating a scene, creating chaos, and Paul rebuke the spirit. So all in all, I think we can say that for the apostles, dealing with spiritual warfare was a normal occurrence as part of the Christian life, but particularly in mission, in a situation where the gospel is going forth and people are being reclaimed from captivity to the dominion of darkness. People are being set free from demonic oppression. People are hearing the gospel being set free from idolatry, which is in deep darkness. So the enemy is not going to give up what he holds on to without a fight. And the apostles, and following them in the age of

the fathers of the church, it was just considered normal. Fighting that battle is just part of the deal. So one thing we hear a lot is, you know, oh, whether it's healing and the gifts of spirit or demons, oh, that happens in the mission field, but not in America. And I've often wondered if in the Western world, obviously, if the enemy were to reveal himself too blatantly, it would cause, because I think about this, if I saw someone just levitate or a skeptic of mine, just saw someone levitate and then someone said, hey, and the power of Christ come down, you might be more inclined to go to church that Sunday right away. And so is there a sense, do you think that when it comes spiritual warfare in the West, that the enemy's work is basically to lure everyone asleep,

minimize impact, you know, fall in love with just materialism, you know, focus on just how, like almost like use good things to distract us from the goal. Because when you talk about the mission field. I know so many people that the second they turned on the jets for Jesus, that's when just an eruption of things happened. And we get a lot of notes on the show saying, hey, I don't even want to learn about this because the enemy is going to target me. And Father will usually say, well, if you're trying to live a good Christian life, you were targeted long before this. But I'm curious, your thoughts on how maybe, because it seems like in developing countries or in Africa or South America or wherever, it's like evil spirits, that's, of course, of course there's evil

spirits, right? But it's here where like, you're crazy. Exactly. I myself have been on mission in Africa, and I have friends who go there regularly on mission, and the enemy is much more overt there. It's not uncommon to see people suddenly writhe on the floor and do all kinds of weird contortions and weird manifestations. And there is a general awareness that's just taken for granted that evil spirits exist, that they keep people in captivity, that there are many people who need. to be liberated. And here in the Western world, as you said, the enemy is more subtle, and he lulls us. And so many people are already captive to him in various ways, even many believers. And it doesn't

mean that they're possessed or obsessed by the devil, but they are being hindered from living fully, the fullness of life that the Lord has for them and for carrying out fully the mission the Lord has for them because the enemy has lured them by either distractions, excessive entertainment, love of comfort, love of self-promotion, pursuit of money, fame, power, all of those things. So it's easy for people to simply neglect the fact that we are in a battle. But as you said, you can't expect to get out of the battle by just deciding, well, I'm not going to fight it. I'm not going to get into deliverance ministry, even though the Lord is calling me there because I'm afraid of how he might retaliate.

No, if you're following Jesus, you do have a bull's eye on you. And the more you're following him, the more you have a bull's eye. but ultimately, what can the enemy do? Only bring you closer to glory, only lead to your greater sanctification. And I remember hearing a story once of a guy who was on an airplane headed to a country in Africa that was not considered a safe country with his wife and several young children. And somebody on the plane with him talked to him and they said, aren't you afraid to bring your family to this place. And his answer was, there's no safer place than being in the will of God. Absolutely right. There is no safer place than being where God wants you to be, doing what God

wants you to do. You cannot be harmed. Jesus said that, right? Luke chapter 10, I give, I have given you authority to trample on serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will harm you. We have that. promise from the Lord himself. So we should never, ever be afraid of what the enemy might throw at us. Okay. So this is, all right, this is great. This is what I wanted to segue to, because obviously we had a lot of questions.

I think any Christian believer is going to wrestle with the goodness of God and the just overt suffering and trials and tribulations that every person on earth goes and experiences, even just aging, right, watching, how do I reckon, you know, James 5, like confess your sins to one another that you may be healed? and yet you can be falling apart. And at some point, the healing does stop in this world, right? And it goes on to the next level. But I'm curious, as someone who studies scripture, too,

I have always wrestle with this. When you read these Psalms and you read some of the promises that God makes, it's like, yeah, if you just follow me and you stay in my will, like, it will go well with you, right? You're going to be blessed and you're going to have great, you know, harvest, and I'm going to protect you from the devour, right? And then Jesus goes, oh, by the way, if you follow me, you will experience trials.

11, you know, it was 11 or, I don't know if the tradition holds that all 12, you know, were martyred. But like, if you're an apostle, you know, you experienced some violence and met a, met a tough demise. So how do we as believers walk and reconcile this tension between God's seeming promise of like prosperity and if you follow me with the promise, oh, you also are going to get persecuted and experience these tribulations and have an enemy out there? Yeah. Yeah, the Lord's ways are so difficult for us to comprehend sometimes. But I think the main thing to keep in perspective is the fact that this life is a flash in the pan. This life is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison.

And therefore, we do not lose heart. Anytime I feel like I'm suffering because I've got a middle seat on the airplane and it's rough, I look at what Paul said about his travels, shipwrecks, beatings, stonings, stonings, sleepless nights, going without food, et cetera, et cetera. He was flying Spirit Airlines too, probably. So we have to keep fixing our eyes on the Lord and knowing that what we are going through now is going to seem so small and insignificant.

Yes, in the earthly perspective, it may be really big. And I know some people suffer unbelievably. And the Lord has unbelievable compassion on them and is closer to them than we can imagine. But in the light of eternity, those who trust the Lord are going to look back and say, thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. You refined me like gold in the furnace. You crushed me like a carbon to make me a diamond. I didn't want it. I struggled against it sometimes I think we're going to say the Lord, but thank you, thank you for letting me go through this. Thank you for the battles that I went through, that sharpened me, that refined me,

that purified me, humbled me, that made me a more pure vessel for you to manifest your power. Before such and such a battle, I was full of myself. I thought I was doing great. Peter could say that. Lord, I'm ready to die with you before Holy Thursday. When he goes, Jesus, Jesus who, never heard of him. He had to be humbled through that trial. And through all of our trials, we are being forged by the Lord to be his servants, to be his army, to share his glory forever. This may be a gross oversimplification than it is. But do you think so, Satan's attacks on us and just the trials and tribulations that God permits to happen, are they in the end just these things that divorce us from loving something that's perishable,

which is this life and reminding us that, you know, this move, we just, there's another hope because I just think about that, especially in America, it's so easy because we've got everything, we've got so many wonderful things. And I think about that. I mean, I would, I always wonder why God permits such seemingly horrible things outside of the ones we do each other. And I go, it just has to be because he doesn't want our hope to be in this current life. Yeah, exactly. It's so easy for us to say, I got my couch, my TV, my beer, my good meal, I'm warm, I'm comfortable. I got it all. And the Lord says, don't be satisfied with that.

I created you for more than that. I created you for so much more than the positive. altry little trinkets that you go after, the trinkets of pleasure, possessions, prestige, and power. He wants us to fix our eyes on a far greater prize. The devil wants to keep us focused on the glitter and the trinkets of this world that are going to last for such a very short time and then be poof, gone. And we don't want to miss out on what's coming after that. Oh, man, I think, I just think of that Schindler's list ending with Liam Neeson just weeping about all he could have done.

And I just think about that. Will that be all of us standing before and him saying, it's like, could you, yeah, look what you could have done, you know, not like pain, but just like, oh, if I had only had faith there, if I, yeah, we just, I. I think we are going to experience that pain. And all the more, we're going to thank the Lord for the trials and the fights and the battles. And we're going to say, oh, why did I miss that opportunity? Why did I withdraw from the battle there out of fear, out of cowardice, out of comfort, self-love,

whatever it might be? Oh, if only I had said yes to the Lord every moment. Oof. All right. Well, all the feels there. Well, as we kind of begin our initial dissent here, because I know you've got charismatic renewals to documents and many other miracles to work. But I want to ask you a little bit maybe about prayer and hearing God's voice and kind of getting back to

because Father Martins often talked about how much he values, and I don't know if he used the word prophecy, but he loved having people who hear from God in his exorcism ministry because many times a holder or an intercessor would get a word, and it would provide a really keen or very relevant insight into helping expose the doorways that were being obfuscated by the demon. And so I'm curious, for you, having studied this and, you know, obviously walked through this, but what is prayer in hearing God,

God's voice in your own life look like for you. This is a topic of, I know a lot of struggle. They say I don't even know what God's voice sounds like. So I'm curious, what has it been like in your own walk with God? Well, I'll tell you honestly, it's something I've struggled with for years and years and years, hearing God's voice. And there were years that went by where I said, Lord, everybody else keeps saying how they heard your voice. They heard you say this.

You said that. But how come I'm not hearing you that way? I really want to hear you. And I'd hold up the Bible with John chapter 10 open to the Lord, say, you said, my sheep, know my voice. Sometimes I think the Lord loves for us to remind him of his word and to stand on it in faith. And something that someone said in a teaching years ago, but after all of this struggle, is so simple and basic. But I can't tell you how much it helped me. And that is, God's voice sounds like our thoughts.

God's voice sounds like our thoughts. And I'm like, oh, yeah. I mean, I knew it wasn't going to be an audible voice, but somehow I thought it was going to be something totally distinct from my thoughts. And I began to understand God's voice comes through our thoughts. Most of the time, there are exceptions where he speaks in a more audible way. But most of the times through our thoughts, which then raises the question,

how do you know when it's your thought and how do you know when it's the Lord? only by practice. Whenever a thought comes in, it seems like that wasn't from me. I think that was from the Lord. Obey if he's asking you to do something. Or if he's just telling you something, like, I love you. I'm your father. Just rest in that.

Receive it and be aware of the spiritual fruit that it brings. So ever since then, since I've ever. I've just received more simple but very helpful teaching on how you hear God's voice. I've been much more able to hear his voice, both for myself and for others. And it's interesting, something I've noticed is that it's actually much easier to hear God's voice for others. And there are cases when I'm in a conference or retreat where there's time of worship and then time for giving prophetic words. And there are people there who really need prophetic words. They're struggling in their lives. They're dealing with illness or they're dealing with

oppression of whatever sort. And then you go and you're seeking to listen to the Lord and to pray with people like that. It just flows. It just flows. It's just amazing how it's like, I don't know, the window opens up and you're able to hear the Holy Spirit in a way that just hits the mark more easily. That's so true. It is for other people. I think about that. And it's got, you know, it's funny because you hear this, I've heard this a lot in Protestant circles, like, oh, God wants to cultivate his one-on-one relationships, so don't rely on other people. And I always struggle with that a little bit because I was like, no, it makes sense. It's really hard because when you want something and your heart's invested and your mind's invested, I can make myself

hear from God on anything. What's that, Lord? You want me to get an outy? Is that it? Yes, of course, Lord. But I also, then I thought, well, but if you hear clearly for their people, what a beautiful way to build relationships and encourage each other. And also, I take it more seriously. If you gave me a word not knowing what I'm going through or whatever, I go, wow, that registers a lot more versus me kind of doubting the stream of consciousness because there's a lot going on upstairs. So it makes sense.

Yeah, and converse of the way of supposedly hearing from the Lord about getting an outy is when I hear something good from the Lord, I think, I immediately analyze it as just me. I go into analytical mode so much more easily when it's just me. Like, you know, if I feel like the Lord is saying, take that vacation or buy that thing that would be enjoyable, no, that can't be God. That's just me. Oh, maybe it is God. So it's so easy for us, especially in the Western world, to apply our rational minds and to be analyzing what we think we're hearing rather than just simply listening to God. And I think that's why in the Catholic Church, the Virgin Mary has appeared on so many occasions, but almost always she appears to children, because children don't

have the same filters. They are able to hear from the Lord, from Mary and the saints more easily because they don't analyze. They just receive. And therefore, we have to really work on putting off our analytical mind. It doesn't mean we don't discern. Analyzing is not the same as discerning. But first, just listening and letting the Lord's word undiluted, unfiltered, sink into us. Do you think I've often wrestled with this question too? Do you think it's partly also asking ourselves, do you want to hear from God?

Because I've been through moments where I don't think I hear that clearly. And I could hear a thought going, well, do you want me to tell? talk to you? And if I did, would you actually do what I told you? And also, if you want a really dramatic word, you're the scripture scholar here, but tell me, typically when God speaks very overtly or audibly, it usually means tough times are coming, right? Yeah, I think that's probably true. Boy, and that's another, ouch, man, yeah, we say we want to hear from God. But how often do we go through the day with, you know, I got this, I know what I'm doing, I have my plan, I have my agenda. I need to get these things done. I want to do these things. I don't want to be derailed.

And very often the Lord's word will derail us from our plan. And we have that ego that doesn't want to be derailed. So I think you're absolutely right. We say we want to hear from the Lord, but very often we're not saying that with our whole heart. Amen. Only part of it. Last question here. You mentioned worship. And I know I loved your interview with Matt Frad and talking about worship and I appreciated his struggle with like, well, do we add a little more music and drums and, you know, there's a wrestling there. And I'll be the first day. There's a lot of contemporary worship songs I hear and I go, I don't think that's scripturally down. Like there's one I love, but it's like, you're never going to let me down. I was like, that's not true. I mean, sure,

in eternity, you won't let me down. But in the present moment, I will very much feel let down because I have a limited vantage point. So assuming there are some scripturally incomplete songs that make the way through the worship tracks. But what has the role of worship music been for you in your walk and then what you've seen in the charismatic renewal? Because especially in the Protestant world, they seem to be very closely tied together. Yeah. I think it's one of the great gifts of the charismatic renewal that has actually been brought to the whole Catholic Church. Because when I first started participating in the charismatic renewal, like almost 50 years ago, it was not mainstream to do praise and worship. It's now mainstream.

because people love it. It opens up their spirit to God. And there's something about being with a group of brothers and sisters together who want nothing but to cast our crowns before the Lord and worship him with all we've got, give him our whole heart, praise God the Father, praise the Holy Spirit. There's something about that is truly heavenly. It is a foretaste of heaven. And the music can really contribute to that. And it's very different from traditional hymnal music or even more traditional Gregorian chant or polyphony. But I think one of the advantages of the worship that's used today, as long as the lyrics are sound and biblical, which is not always the case, but one of the advantages is that they are love songs. They're simple.

they're repetitive. You don't have to think a lot about the words. The words are not like really deep theological propositions piled up on one another, like some of the traditional hymns. But very simple. What a beautiful name. What a beautiful name. What a beautiful name.

What a beautiful name. Repeating things so that we're losing focus on the music. We don't have to exercise our minds, but we can disengage our minds to some some degree and just give our hearts to the Lord. So I'm so grateful for those who lead worship in that way. Now, I should say I've also been in many times of praise of worship that didn't go so well, where sometimes the whole group would be coming into the presence of God, and then the worship team has a selection that doesn't fit. It just drops us out of the moment. And nobody knows the song, or it's a hard song to sing,

and all of a sudden, people are not able to engage their hearts with the Lord in the same way. So it really is a gift. I'd say it's a charism of the spirit to lead people in worship. Well, it's also true that music does that for us. Right? And music gets us into it. Because I've often, I've never wanted it to be a crutch,

because even when you hear an instrumental score from a movie you love and it brings up these emotions, I thought this can't be coincidence that the Psalms are musical and that music is a way to bypass our busy mind, and especially in today's day and age, when we're so distracted, et cetera, I'm so grateful for something that can pull me out of that. And I was going through Kings,

I think it was First Kings recently, and it was, I remember the Second Kings. It was the story of Elisha, and it was Jehoshaphat, and one of the wicked kings of Israel came to him, and it was the one where he's like, you're lucky Jehoshaph's here, because I wouldn't even look at you.

It was when the three kings came down to ask for advice, and Elijah, like, but fine, I will see, if there's a word from you, says, someone bring me an instrument and we'll play some music and we'll see what the Lord says. And I thought, well, that's Elisha. He hears from God pretty clearly

and he was seeming to say, hey, let's bring some music and see what happens. Yeah, I think that is a really interesting scripture. And it speaks to the fact that there's something about music that enables us to be in touch with the heavenly realm. Sometimes it's called the eighth sacrament in the Catholic Church. Music is the eighth sacrament. It can also lead people into the demonic realm.

There's demonic music for sure, plenty of it, all too much of it out there. But there's heavenly music that opens us up to the spirit. So I think it makes sense that Elisha said, I would like music to help me enter into the presence of the Lord so that I might prophesy. And that's still true today. It still happens today. The gifts of the spirit can flow when you are in a place of worship. worship. Well, that's amazing. Well, Dr. Healy, we've covered so much ground. I know we've got to get you out of here. Any final encouragement or words or anything else you wanted to talk about before we

take off today? Any final exhortations to the listeners? Sure. I would say, like Pope John Paul the second said, open yourselves docilely, meaning in a teachable way to the Holy Spirit and his gifts. They are powerful. They are given to every single Christian. They are, they are, equip you for the mission that the Lord has given you in this life, the one mission that you alone can fulfill, nobody else can fulfill. Don't try to do it without the divine equipment. The Lord has given you. And that's also equipment for the spiritual battle. There's absolutely no single person on earth whom the Lord wills to walk around oppressed, burden harassed, cast down, buried under guilt, fear, condemnation, anxiety, worry, or whatever else it might be, the Lord does not want anybody

to be living that way. He wants his children free. And so if you're not free, I would say seek and pursue freedom. Ask the Lord, seek those who can help you be free because that is a gift the Lord wants to give you. And he wants you to be fully alive and active in his Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Lidu. We so appreciate. it. Folks, thank you for listening to another episode of The X-Files. A little less exorcism, a little more healing, charismatic renewal. But hey, you can't be exercising all the time. You need a break. So we'll see you. You need exercising gifts rather than exercising demons all the time. That's right. We took a break from exercising demons to exercise some gifts. So hopefully

all enjoyed it. Thanks to Dr. Healy and we'll talk to you soon, folks.