The Exorcist Files - UFOS and The Demonic

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

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Hello, friends, Father Martins here. I hope you're having a wonderful Advent. Before we jump into today's episode, I want to thank a new partner of ours, The Lion, a fantastic news site where you can stay up to date on culture education and the latest and most pressing issues. Christian parents in particular will want to subscribe to The Lion. It's free and a great place to get informed on what is happening in the culture.

Head to Read the Lion. dot com, that's readthelion.com, or click on the show notes. Now on to this week's episode. Today we look at the issue of UFOs. This show gets hundreds of emails monthly, and not an insignificant number of these concern UFOs and extraterrestrial life. These topics have made a renaissance in the last 10 years or so due to two things. One, the U.S. government has released records.

pertaining to UFOs, and two, there have been a number of recent high-profile UFO sightings. The acronym UFO simply means unidentified flying object. Well, anything unrecognizable to the viewer, such as a new piece of top-secret technology, is by definition, a UFO. However, discussion about UFOs usually gravitates into discussion about alien or extraterrestrial life. There's no official Catholic position on the existence of alien life. While sacred scripture does not state that material life beyond planet Earth exists, neither does it state that it cannot exist. Today, Ryan interviews Nathan and Luke,

hosts of an immensely popular podcast called Blurry Creatures. Both Ryan and I have been guests on their show before, and it's clear that Nathan and Luke have, have thought deeply on this topic. I appreciate the humility they bring to the subject. We share some agreements, but differ in our conclusions. I'll provide some commentary during the show and share my thoughts at the end. I hope you are all having a blessed advent and that you enjoy the show. Welcome back to The Exorcist Files in the studio today, the two hosts of the blurry creatures. And the only thing that I can do to basically put myself on the same level with them

is to blur my background. Their backdrop is a beautiful co-mingling of stranger things and some bizarre iconography. So it's wonderful to have you guys here. Nate, Luke, hosts of the extraordinarily popular blurry creatures podcast. Some have called it the next best podcast since The Exorcist Files. Your third favorite podcast, at least the number three. Yeah. Ryan, great to see you, brother. If anyone out there listens to our show, Ryan, you and Mother Martins joined us to talk about exorcisms last year. And then we did a fun show with you recently. Talk about your experience as hosting the show and also being very adjacent to all of these very supernatural stories. So it was good to see you here in Franklin, Tennessee, a couple weeks ago.

And it's a pleasure to be on our fourth favorite podcast. Absolutely. For our listeners wondering, just what and why do we have two sort of recreational experts on UFOs and unidentified objects, transdimensional beings. Why would we have them on the actresses files? Well, one, we get hundreds of emails about this. So, listeners, this is our first foray into actually trying to address this topic, which we can't run from. We can't hide. While the demonic is far from blurry when Father Martin is in the room, there's a lot else going on right now. And I wanted to bring on two men who have dedicated their adult lives to studying this bizarre phenomena that is unfolding before us.

So they are proof that a hobby can definitely turn into a wonderful calling. So I want to start off. Father Martens and I came on your show last year. And I remember Father Martin stated that his belief was that most of these UFO manifestations or whatever we're seeing right now is probably rooted in the demonic. But from U.T.'s perspective to anyone who's skeptical and says, look, none of this is happening. And if it is, it's just some illusions. What is the best evidence we have right now, the most incontrovertible,

things that we have to suggest that something is actually happening as far as UFO's unidentified objects, et cetera. What's the best evidence we have right now? That's a good question. Right. Let me just start by saying to your audience that we are not theologians and we are not aerospace engineers. And I just have hosted a show for the last four years where we talk to people like that. So inevitably, I'm sure you have experienced you, when you hear enough, you get an education on the go, right? You can't help but learn and then take these things you hear and suss them out like really kind of wrestle with what you believe and like you said initial episode that we did with ryan and father martins his take was that these are manifestations which i think at this point i think we disagree with that and then

there's a number of reasons that we do and i think that the first is that there are enough documented sightings and you can look these up you can google these you can find these of hundreds of people if not more having an experience in fact unsolved mystery There's an episode there where there was a UFO site in Texas that hundreds of people saw. So you have mass psychosis where everybody's having the same experience of a manifestation. That's kind of where I'd start that I think what was sort of conveyed and is a narrative is this personal thing like Father Martin's told a story of this gigantic ship that these guys saw and no one else saw. Right. And that was sort of his basis on it being spiritual manifestations.

What I think is hard to justify that. We go a bunch of different ways, but you can start with siding scenes by hundreds of people. I think if you look at the videos that have come out and been released and leaked by the Navy, especially from incidents on the Nimitz and the Roosevelt, you are seeing real craft that are locked onto by real F-18 fighters. Yeah, flying at speeds and doing things physically, both in the way it moves, but also in physics, like advanced physics, that we really can't do with our conventional F-18s.

As good as our multimillion-dollar jets are, they can't do this. And they lock on. It's kind of a tough thing for something ethereal or spiritual to be able to be locked onto by a targeting system for a conventional jet, one that's meant to engage in warfare. But also, if you look at what Roswell, there was stuff that was collected for sure. We actually spoke to someone on our show whose dad was a Mormon missionary. So take it from what it is, but a Mormon missionary in the area that had met at a government trapper that had pieces of the wreckage. So this is physical pieces of our. a wreckage they couldn't explain because they tried to break it, bend it, smash it with hammers, and nothing was done. It was incredibly light and incredibly strong, for example. Then you have, of course, what's happening in our government. And this is a hot topic earlier this year and last year was the House Oversight Committees conducted by Congress into the investigation of whistleblowers, most famously David Grush, about the idea that portions of our government have collected wreckage, right?

And so this is where we kind of pragmatically, Ryan, go, okay, demonic, are these things evil in that sense? I think I would say, yes. We have a Timothy Albarino on the show, and he says, absolutely, they're doing nefarious things. They are abducting people, if you believe in 30 years of research from like a John Mack, who was a Harvard professor who researched the abduction phenomenon. So there are nefarious evil things that are happening in correlation with these unidentified flying objects or UAPs, which is the new sort of the new vernacular. But the government itself, whose official claim through NASA is that we don't have anything,

we have whistleblowers now with legal protection to expose what's happening behind the closed doors in the government. And what they claim in these oversight committees is that we have recovered craft, and we have what are called non-human biologics. So, I mean, this is a big leap for a lot of people, especially people of faith. What we try to do on our show is talk about what we find in the Bible and how the descriptions of angels, specifically, and the way they operate and travel can actually correlate to what we see with UFO phenomenon today. Do we think these are Martians or

extraterrestrials from like another planet? My personal opinion is no. I think what we're seeing is something in the angelic space and not demonic. Amen. Father Martin's here. I want to do a quick plug for one of the most powerful tools I've

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God bless you. Hey, folks, Father Martins again. I want to inject a few thoughts into the conversation. Before the break, our guests shared that they believe these UFO accounts are not of extraterrestrial origin. I'm in complete agreement and here's why. Using our current technology, we can make a spacecraft travel through space at approximately 430,000 miles per hour. While that is incredibly fast, it would still take almost a year to get to the planet Neptune, the furthest planet in our solar system. Returning to Earth would take even longer because of the orbital changes of the

paths of the two planets. But the numbers become simply staggering when you go beyond our nearest planetary bodies. The closest galaxy to our own, the Milky Way galaxy, is the Canis Major dwarf galaxy. It is an incredible 25,000 light years from our solar system. That means you would have to travel 25,000 years at the speed of light, which is the fastest speed of anything in the universe. Light travels at approximately 300,000 kilometers per second, 186,000 miles per second. In other words, 671 million miles per hour. All of this to say that it is absurd to think that anything can make the trek to Earth from the recesses of the universe. You would have to ignore the basic rules of science as they pertain to physics.

In addition, many scientific communities, NASA being one of them, actively search for signs of life beyond Earth using telescopes and probes, and they beam out communication signals in hopes of getting a response. None of these communities have ever claimed to have discovered any life, let alone intelligent life. Many people claim to have seen aliens, and some have even claimed to have been abducted by them. the beings they encountered are often described with a similar appearance, generally human-like but with small, skinny bodies, having smooth and hairless skin. Their heads are enlarged and tear-shaped, and their eyes are black and very large. Based on the sheer number of claimants and the consistency of the claims, I do not believe that the majority of them are made up.

I believe they are authentic experiences that left the same. these folks disturbed and shaken. But it was not extraterrestrials who caused those experiences. So what did? Our blurry host, Nathan and Luke, suggests that it could be something angelic in nature, but not necessarily demonic. On this point, I disagree wholeheartedly. These encounters are a classic case of demonic deception. And I'll share more about this in a bit. quick, though, because you mentioned the missionary. Did I hear, he knows someone who basically has the remains? I feel like a lot of these things are, I know someone, I saw something.

You know, Luke, you and I were at a gathering where a gentleman claimed one time to have seen something in person. So I hear all these people saying, I've got it, you know, we've seen it. And yet I've not seen anyone turn it up. So I'm curious, is it hearsay or do we know for sure these people have recovered remains that contradict the government's account? Well, I mean, if you think about the Roswell crash, and I think that's a good place to start is like, you know, L.A. Marzilli went there. He took some metal detectors. He said he found some metal. And we talked to him directly. He was actually there. It's in the middle of nowhere. I think the story with the Mormon missionary specifically was a random thing that was documented in letters. So he would send letters back to his family. So his son inherited all these items. And he found this story. And there was a picture of the government trapper. You can look it up. And the story was just kind of out of place. in terms of what you would ride home to your parents.

Like, okay, so I met this government trapper. We became friends because he was kind of a loner. He took him into his shed and then told us the story. And later he went on a radio show and disappeared. So for us on this podcast, we kind of work as scientists. Like we don't really have an agenda to work backwards. It's just like, here are the stories, here's the data. What do you do with it?

And I think for a lot of Christians, there is a fence there. They're worried about they're possibly being something that they don't know about and how it might shape their faith. I mean, aliens is a very broad topic. You got Palladians, reptilians, you know, you got Nordics, you got grays, and you've got Bigfoot. And you've got all these things that are physically manifesting. And you can say it's just spiritual. But if you do a show like this, over time, it's either all these people are lying.

And like, you can be skeptical about that. Or there's just more stuff that we don't know about it. It's okay. I don't think it affects our faith. I think Paul alludes to this in the New Testament, or Principality's power. He doesn't outline what they are or where they're from or what they're doing. He just says they're there, you know. And I think a lot of times we want the Bible to be an encyclopedia of what exists and we don't know.

And I think the demonic realm is a spiritual realm. It is happening in spirits. You know, there are spirits. And they just seem to have a different way of moving about in our world. But, you know, Bigfoot is a creature that leaves footprints. I don't know if demons do that. You know, it doesn't really make sense why they would want to find a legal way to get into a 14-year-old girl playing a board game, you know, like Bigfoot's doing his own thing, you know.

I just think you come into a show like this and that's kind of what you think. But when you move along after four or five years, you're kind of like, just, I don't know how to stay there. It's like anybody else in a science field of we have more data now. What do we do with the data? Do we ignore it? Do we shape it? Do we move it?

Let me ask you this because obviously both us documenting spiritual warfare. I'm trying to play skeptic here because we have the same thing. People are like, show me the tapes. Show me the tapes. We're taking Father Martin's word for it in the room. and we respond with, well, at what point do you hear it from enough people, from enough cultures, throughout enough history that you go, okay, clearly the vast majority of the human experience sides with the idea that there is some sort of malevolent spiritual existence, again, benevolence,

and every culture on Earth has a prescription to deal with these things. So I'm just interested, if we can take some of these claims being addressed them individually. The first one would be that with a lot of these whistleblowers, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of times they'll see like interviews, a former NASA person or colonel. And it seems like in the comments, there's always a letdown. It's nothing new we've heard. It's basically I'm telling you what I've seen. If we're just like skeptic, is there an argument that whistleblowers come out and are building a name for themselves? And is it for you that it's the total number of people that have come forward? And is it at great risk to themselves? Kind of walk me through why you believe a lot of these

accounts of people coming out now about it. Yeah, I think those guys are coming. out because they're afraid. I think they're coming out because they want to protect themselves. I think it's the opposite of fame and fortune. You know, like Bob wasar, they destroyed his life. I don't think Bob was smart enough to realize what he was dealing with. He was smart in one aspect of like book smart. Yeah, I know how to reverse engineer. I understand technology and I understand physics and that's why I got the job. But he didn't understand that it was so decompartmentalized. And then he started telling his friends what was going on. And so they basically scrubbed his life. And I think that a lot of these people pay the ultimate price. And we've seen that about whistleblowers. You can get Clinton, so they say. You can

just disappear. And I think that people at this point know that people go missing. And so what I will say about the UFO phenomenon that I wanted to say in the beginning is that you have activity that doesn't make any sense about it being a deception. There are people who see these things in the middle of nowhere. And there's really odd details saying like it crashed into a tree. It's taking cattle, elk. That's David Politis. Yeah, David Politis is an ex-detective trying to say, this stuff is strange. So they might be messing with the food supply and the human genome. And so I think it's human trafficking happening on the fourth dimension, which is why you have a lot of pushback from people.

Because not only is it real, but they're doing something. And so blowing the whistle on that has big implications for the church as like, hey, you know, we know people are going missing. But think about this, Ryan, a lot of Christians don't even want to believe that human trafficking is a problem. So what do you do with that? And then you tell them, not only are humans taking other humans, but we have entities taking humans and why, I don't know. But we can all be skeptical to the point where we almost miss the spirit of God warning us. Like, hey, protect yourself, protect your family, and raise awareness to these things. So I think that's where the feelings come up, why we have a little bit more than just an opinion about these things.

Like we're trying to say they're doing something. And we should be aware. We should know that that has happened. And Ryan, I would say on your, to your comment, Bob Lazar, I think, think was smart in the sense that he knew the safest place to be was in the public eye. It's much harder to disappear someone or have them just sort of evaporate from existence if you are maintaining yourself in the public eye. And I think that's part of the protection is to be public, right? Because then there's this sort of thing where if they, whoever detention doesn't want

information to get out once you silenced, you've become a very public figure. And what I was talking about Snowden is Snowden did this. And he's exiled in Russia. There weren't the protections that exist now. So there are legal protections for these people to blow the whistle. And what is interesting about these hearings, as you say, is it feels like no new information. If you watch them, they have to share a bunch of things with Congress and what's called a skiff. So there is still top secret things they are disclosing that have to be maintained top secret for, quote, national security. And we have had actually, just so it's not anecdotal, we've had connections with at least two House representatives that said the chair of this oversight committee. Oversight committee.

And they're telling us is they're getting. verifiable information inside of this top secret skiff where they can talk about things that can't be publicly disclosed. Now, of course, that's going to, obviously, it's going to generate people's skepticism, right? Like, of course, no new information. Of course, it's top secret. But what I think the point to this is that the government does things that are nefarious. We actually just had a show with our friends and inches of butterflies and talk about the top ten conspiracy theories that have been found to be true, right? And much of these are the government doing things, whether it's like Tuskegee experiments or MK Ultra or Project Monarch,

you start going to these things and you go, these were all conspiracy theories that are actually true. And it's nefarious stuff by the government covering stuff up. Yeah. Well, JFK's assassination. How specific do we want to get? So the idea that government's hiding something from the public is not a new one. I think it's actually more verifiable and believable these days. As we get into this sort of FOIA era and this era of this era of information with the internet,

the things, more and more things are going to come to. light. We talked about Heiser there night. One of the things that Dr. Michael Heiser said in our show, as Nate said, is that either everyone's lying. Every single person is lying where it comes to Bigfoot sidings or UFO sidings or whatever, right? They're all lying. Well, what if one is true, then it breaks the paradigm. You have to expand your paradigm to place this in there. And that's kind of where our show lives. How do you put some of these fringe topics, these blurry things inside your paradigm as a Christian and think about them critically? Yeah, I know. And you hear that. And It's funny because I have to remember that's the same reaction.

Some listeners have probably listening to the X-S files going, wait, what? Someone levitated and crawled up the ceiling. So let me ask you this because let me talk to the Catholic thing real quick too, right? Because we kind of joked about this pre-roll. But we had Dr. Diana Posulka on the show last year or a year ago. She is a chair of religious studies at UNC Charlotte. She wrote a book called American Cosmic, which sort of deals with Americana culture and the UFO experience. She was recently on Joe Rogan.

She's going to be on our show next week. What she said, which is interesting, she had access as a Catholic to the Vatican. The Vatican has a whole section in the library where they are documenting what they are calling UFO experiences. And this, as she said, spans up to a thousand years. So according to the Catholic Church, we're not talking about something that's a new phenomenon. They are classifying these unidentified flying objects all the way back, almost a thousand years. They have a volume, what she would say, an entire wall or a wing of this library that's specifically about UFO. encounters and this is part of the Vatican's library. So, you know, Father Martins has an idea of what

this is. And I think we have a different idea. I don't think it has to do with Catholic Protestant. I think we've been sitting in this space for a long time now. And there's just, there's so much physicality that exists around this. Whether you believe David Grush or not, he's claiming we have crash records. That's what Bob Luzar said. And if you look at Bob's track record from the 80s, he's been right about so much stuff we didn't know about then, that we know about now, that it sort leans to believe him, right? And then you have crash at Roswell. These are physical things. And we talked a bit about demons. The idea, again, that this is demonic and evil. Yes. The idea this is demons. Demons are disembodied spirits. Go to the story of Jesus at the tombs, the man at the tombs.

We are legion. This is a man with a thousand demons in him. These things want to be embodied. They want to be in bodies. They are spirits that want to be in bodies. So when I'm just entertained the idea, these are physical. What does a disembodied spirit want with a physical But Zahar laid out, you know, with the Nemitz video, you can see the craft is there and then it turns and then it moves that way. And he outlined in several interviews, the anti-gravity technology that they have, they pivot and then they have these reactors that move. But before the video came out. Yeah, yeah. We talked about this long ago.

And then we actually released the Nimitz episode. And we actually interviewed a gentleman that was on the craft that day when they were debriefing. But I will say this, Ryan, here's a big foot print, right? A listener sent this to us. you can give this data to people. We brought on the scientist who is like the best foot morphologist in the world and said, look, I'm convinced by the data. He's got the footprints.

He said, these can't be fake. I know footprints of everything. Every creature that exists, I know what their footprints look like. And yet still you have skeptics. So at some point, you just have to leave the skeptics behind and move towards the data and blow the whistle and not care what people think in the sense because you can't give certain people enough data. Well, and it makes sense, too.

Also, we should say that the leap from invisible and just, Warriors and descriptions of the seraphim, you know, is that any weirder? In fact, Bigfoot's a less of a leap than a creature covered in eyes and wings. If you read descriptions of angiology, you're like, man, angels are like way weirder and terrifying compared to some of the, you know, leprechauns and these dragons. Let me ask you this. So none of these have to be mutually exclusive. It's not all the phenomena are all one thing or another, right? For example, in the same way we know the AI tools that we're playing with right now, the government's got some toys that no one wants to know about. Maybe Elon's even got some toys. Some of these could be really cool toys and that could account for some

of the phenomena. Maybe some are angels and demons. We're getting glimpses. Is the veil between the spiritual world being peeled back a little bit? Are they dropping in? Or third, or is there a nefarious organization and some sort of conspiracy that is trying to affect humanity? Father Martin's point, he brought up on your show, which he said that for most of these accounts, it seems that the interactions with these phenomena tend to mirror what is culturally going on. So prior to the six, you don't see any spaceships or rocket ships kind of thing. It's more like zeppelins. Prior to that, it's fairies. And so we're now in the age of tech, we're seeing more tech stuff. Could you guys speak to a little bit about those plausible explanations and then maybe address,

could it just be demonic phenomena mirroring whatever's culturally in the zeitgeist? Yeah, I mean, one of the earliest known photographs, one of them is on a mountaintop. You can Google it, you can see this mountain and you can see this UFO disc in there. And that was late 1800s. So, and there was also a famous UFO siding in Germany. Bramberg. Yeah. The 13, 12 or 1300s. Yeah. And so, I mean, I don't think that this is a modern Hollywood thing. And in fact, I think human beings get our cultural stories and movies and things from actual real things that happen. It's like with Bigfoot, I mean, if this is all just demonic manifestations and you'd see a lot of bizarre things happening, you wouldn't

have specific sightings of one creature covered in hair, smells terrible, throw things, projects thoughts into people's minds, and has sort of an infrasound of fear around it. I mean, it's the same story over and over and over again from police officers, park rangers, pastors, a lot of women who are scared and frightened. And so you've got to think the demon can become anything. You have like a wild plethora of strange stuff that's happening instead of just this one creature that continues to exist. So I think the UFO phenomenon, phenomenon is old. I think it's ancient. And I think that what has happened is that a lot of Gnostic views have infiltrated the church for a long time. And that these things are esoteric and you can't

understand them and they're ethereal and their spirits and we don't know. But actually, ancients, I believe, had a more practical view that angels and humans aren't much different. We're like each other. We travel around. We have to get from point in a beat. We eat. We sleep. We drink, we talk, we laugh. There's not much difference between, you know, the extra characters in the Bible in us. And that our realm echoes heaven on earth as it is in heaven. And there isn't this great spiritual divide between us and that. What we're talking about demons, we're talking about the spiritual one. We're talking about physical things that have died in their spirit is left. And you and I and we're spirit, flesh, soul, all in one. They've left that part of existence. So we've got to be

careful of the gnaustic stuff that is kind of crept into the church. And I think we've seen, politically modern days, how progressivism will come. Some of these ideas can sweep into the church and we don't know it. We can't even tell. We can't smell. I can't detect it. But it's like, would a modern day Christian and ancient Christian like be the same at all? You know, how do they think about these things?

And so I think that you have books like the Book of Enoch and other things kind of popping up and people are going, oh, okay. So the giants were actually a thing, you know. And there's evidence that giants and the David and Goliath story is just a snapshot. But it's so hard for me to actually think that that could be a part of the biblical story. But look at all these wars in the Old Testament. But when we don't have the data, we start to come up with wild conclusions of, oh, yeah, that was just they were confused. They didn't know. Or they were just big people.

And you're like, nah, more data says different. That's what I think about UFOs. I think they're building something. They have advanced technology. And they come from who knows where. I would say, too, that I think when you talk about, it being more modern. I think when you talk about sightings that are pre,

maybe pre-1950, you talk about the Zeppelins and airships. I tend to go where people think they are describing what they're seeing with the vernacular they know, right? There wouldn't be much of a precedent to talk about a spaceship in the 1800s. That idea is foreign.

Early 1900, something that flew in the sky was a Zeppelin. To me, it's kind of in the same way. It doesn't matter where your eschatology is around Revelation, but... Like a cherry to fire. If you believe that like that is cycles and is still coming, yeah, fire, for example, then John is seeing stuff at a future date that he is trying to describe as a

first century ancient Near Eastern, right? And so he's not going to use the same terminology. So I think you can run in the area of semantics. But like anything else, it's like Bigfoot until we actually pull in out of the woods or someone sets a UFO right in front of us or everyone to see on display. The best we can do is really take this mountain of anecdotals, take it with testimony from people that would appear to be trustworthy whistleblowers that have legal protection, really no reason because they're putting their life in danger to expose this stuff and try to make this make sense. And when they were talking about it's fascinating, the idea of angels in the Old Testament is that what they walk, they walk into Sodom, they eat with Abraham, they wrestle with Jacob.

These are very physical things. And I know that what the church talks about sometimes this idea they kind of poof, they take form. Like shapeshifters, yeah. cape and whatever. And I get that they can manipulate, but also like, what are they in their resting state? The other thing is in the Bible, it's pretty evident when people see these. These aren't humans, right? Like when they walk into Sodom, it's something exotic, right? Abraham knows it's not a man, knows it's the angel of the Lord. Jacob knows that and wrestles. These are Daniel 9 and 10, right? You have this weird passage where Daniel's waiting for a message from the Lord takes 21 days and the angel shows up and says they got held up by the prince of Persia. That's kind of a hard thing to rectify if you think the angels can just show up wherever they want.

Maybe they have to travel. We don't know. That's also one verse, right? We have to be careful not to build a theology. 100%. But it's also an example that's sort of interesting, right? Let me ask you this playing disembodied spirits advocate here. Obviously, we are ascribing, if it was demonic, it would look this way, et cetera.

But we know in scripture, God is not the author of confusion, which is it farfetched to think that if there is a demonic realm and you look at the end time, there's going to be. a sort of congealing of all faiths, right? Humans are going to look to false worship of something. Is it that far-fetched to think that the demonic in a diversity of expression and manifestation could just take on all these random things to get people talking about it confused? The enemy is actually highly logical, has a very structured plan to try and remove people away from God and divorce them from that. So is it at least plausible that by creating a diversity of manifestation that you could divide and actually make people think the Bible's all wrong about that. There's all this other stuff that's happening.

And it could literally be just to confuse humanity and move them further away from a correct interpretation of revelation. Well, I think that's why we start at the origin story of demons themselves. You know, where do demons come from? How do you understand something? We don't know where it's where it's come from. Well, when two demons love each other and come together, right? Thank you, Ryan.

It's the family show. You know, it's like everyone starts episode four of Star Wars. And then it's like, what happened? How do we get here? And I think on our podcast, it's a show, explore, go places people don't want to go. And let's ask some harder questions. And I think the ancients, from our understanding, all the people we've interviewed, and hundreds of authors and scholars say that, you know, there was a traditional belief that the demons of the disembodied spirits, the Nephilim, the giants, the demigods, the hybrids.

And so that's an origin story. So they're not created. They are an abomination. They shouldn't have been here. But they are a byproduct of great sin. And so they're limited. They're a limited being. And it's a legal issue.

We have to go in and do specific legal things to get these out. So they have to apply by these laws. If they can do whatever they want, why would they have any laws? Why wouldn't they do whatever they want to do? They seem to be limited. And I think the limits come from their origins. It's like the gray aliens. Those stories are bizarre because they don't say anything.

They're cold to the touch. they seem to be not nefarious. They don't speak weird languages. They just show up. They take people and they do a specific task. You take demonic stories and you take gray alien stories and there's no crossover. There's nothing similar about them. Now people say it's demonic.

I would say yes. It's evil. It feels evil. People feel like they have to say the name of Jesus to stop this thing happening. But it doesn't always work. In fact, we had an email the other day from a lady that said, I really love your show because I've dealt with gray aliens specifically. And I want you to know they're less resistant to when people say the name of Christ than demons are.

And so those kinds of emails, you step back and you're like, what do I do with that? What does that mean? But demons specifically seem to be responsive to thousands of years of the wisdom of exorcists, what to do, right? So I don't know. Is that lady just baking that up? But we do have to be careful about email. I imagine both our shows get some very interesting emails that we must be careful.

But that is something we've also heard before. It's also not an isolated story. And I would say, what do we make of this? And I think it's the same idea if you're being attacked by a bear, Ryan. Can you rebuke it in the name of Jesus and it'll work? Possibly. Yeah. But this is a physical thing that may not respond to that because it doesn't fall under the legalities of the spiritual realm, right?

Can someone who's going to murder you? Can you rebuke them in the name of Jesus? And they stop. I've heard stories like that. But do they end up murdering you because they're a physical being? Most of the time, I think that's what happens. And so you kind of have to take these things and go, okay, what do we do with this? And we're not saying we have the answers.

It's just I think these are worth considering because, as you pointed out, I think what's important about these conversations, Ryan, is that ultimately I think this aspect of our culture, this story, this narrative is also going to be part of a great deception. Yeah. Right. You hear it if you listen for it. We talked to someone who was a master Mason. We've talked to people that are in the ancient alien space. We've talked to people that are that basically will tell you.

And it's the same story every time. The aliens are here. There are our friends. They're making sure we don't destroy each other. They're going to step in before we do. Right. And you go, this is a weird narrative. How does this work?

Is it possible that this is part of the great deception where we have this, and then spitball in, right? Because of course, because we don't know. But there's an alien disclosure. and then because the church has woefully avoided topics like this, people go, well, that disqualifies my faith. And here's the aliens show up and they say that they planted us here. And they're here to save us from ourselves. Maybe better yet, they're here to save us from Yahweh, from the king of heaven, right? These are things I think that can happen. And this is obviously me just prognosticated.

But the idea this could go that way, right? I think these type of subjects, especially in the alien space, have the potential to make people think that this disqualifies a Christian faith or a Christian worldview. And what we're here to say is that isn't the case, that we have a lot of things that exist in what we call the supernatural or the spiritual realm or the heavenly realms that we don't know a lot about and it aren't specifically quantified in the Bible. But it doesn't disqualify anything when it comes to our faith. I think we've got to build bigger fences. And that's kind of where we're at. Like how do we think about angels? How do we think about deal? How do we think about? demons. I mean, this is what you're doing on your show. What's happening in the supernatural realm? Are demons possessing people? Absolutely. What are these stories like, wow, okay, the game of darkness is active and has power. What do we think about that? But think about the steps it took in your mind of accept that there is such a thing as a demon, you know, and you read about it in the New Testament, but you still have a lot of skeptical people there. Just like you start reading, you work your way towards more heavier data. When you go to school, you should start with addition. By the end, you're doing quantum physics. And I think sometimes when I was school you went to, bro. I don't know what school you went to, bro.

That was cold fusion. I mean, that's a kid, you know. I started a cold fusion, yeah. But I mean, we're all third graders when we, or second graders when we get into these paranormal spaces. And if you stay in it long enough, you kind of graduate to harder and harder things. It doesn't mean you're right about those things. But it's really hard to stay in those lanes and those fences. For sure.

Let me ask you guys this. And I know we got to land you guys plane to get you land your UAAP. Let me ask you this. For anyone who's like brand new to this and says, I'm ready to take the first. step towards a blurrier world. I want to take the blurry pill. Who are the individuals or interviews of people that have come forward that you should say, start here, listen to these, and maybe it's episodes in your show, or events or documents that are available right now on the internet and say, look, start here. We think this is the most compelling gateway to at least say,

you know what, consider the possibility. There's vastly more going on than we realize. I would say guys like David Politis are a good place to start because that was my journey, right? Like I heard these Bigfoot stories and these disappearing stories and then I started listening to David Politis and he really speaks to the skeptic. And David is very good at not entertaining wild ideas and he keeps his personal opinions kind of behind the wall, if so to speak. But he is outlying 12 to 13 reasons why people mysteriously vanish and it's all databaseed. whether it's weather conditions, search and rescue can't find them, search and rescue dogs can't find them, they find these bodies and places that they've searched a thousand times. There's just this whole mountain of data that people are disappearing. And so he proves forensically that there are

entities taking people, not Bigfoot, not werewolves, you know, not bears, not mountain lions, something we can't see, right? And almost as if they're getting taken on a craft from this world to another world or up in the sky or wherever they're going. And so he's got a bunch of documentaries out. That's a really good place to start. And I think that is where I began to realize this is something else. Something else is going on entirely. We start there on our show. We start at the beginning with Bigfoot stories and we will talk to the scientists and then we slowly work up. So that's another way. But I think David is a really good place for skeptics to kind of go, okay, maybe I can accept this. and maybe then I can accept this

in these next episodes and these next guys. And then the Bob Lazar's and all these other guys are saying, hmm, you know, this guy's a scientist. What's he to gain from this? So I think it's really, really hard to listen to David's 12 to 13 facts and go,

nah, because these are documented cases of people going missing and there's thousands of them. And I would say also like Dr. Diana Posoka on our show. She's a Catholic. She's written a book

called American Cosmic and a second book that just came out. She's been a big mouthpiece and sort of the idea of the UFO phenomena in America. I would also say things are very fundamental to what we talk about is like The Unseen Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser. You will say I had no new ideas that just compiled them and it's peer reviewed. And what he talks about really is understanding the ancient Near Eastern view. So the writers of the Old Testament, the way they understood the realities of their world. So the natural, the supernatural, what he calls the Unseen Realm, I think is a very good basis.

Because once you understand there is this whole other world that exists, that's very much, tied to ours, so much so that the ancients didn't separate them. I think is one place also to start. I think I would say is our faith is big enough to not to sift this. This is not a knee-jerk. We have to reject this kind of stuff. I also don't think we can knee-jerk like a lot of church does and just paint everything that doesn't make sense or as weird as demons. Perhaps there's more going on there. All we really know about that biblically is at angels, which is the word for messenger in Greek, Anglos. There's this whole heavenly host that exists. And we're not told a whole lot about them, except they sort of do similar things we do and perhaps look like us,

but not quite compared to the biblical text. And what do we do with that? Can we take these subjects and place them inside of here and suss them out and have a conversation about it? That's what I love what we're doing right here, is having a conversation about things we can't explain and things. But things are pertinent to our culture. The fact that we have things on mainstream media about UFOs about congressional oversight, the fact that huge media outlets talking about this specifically, talking about the nephalum, talking about the alien subject or topic. I think that just behooves the fact that we should be having conversations around this and wrapping our heads around and deciding what we think about this phenomenon

and not knee-jerk and throwing it out because I think that gives a lot of danger for us to decide that we can't talk about this, can't broach the subject. And I think that's important because one of the biggest questions we get is, why is this important? Why are you talking about this? Where's the hope in this, right? Like these subjects, it doesn't matter. It's not salvation.

You guys are perpetrating a whole narrative here, and you're scaring people, and you're giving a voice to the darkness and all these other critical voices that we hear in our show. We get that accusation, too. You're good. Yeah. Well, people are having experiences they can't explain it. The church can't explain it. They're going to go somewhere else. They're going to go to the new age. They're going to go to UFO religions, right? You have euphologists that are banging the drum. This is a physical phenomenon. And you have a huge portion of the church denying it exists. And then you have people getting abducted on a nightly basis. And they don't believe the church anymore. So they move to the euphologists and they move to this whole other explanation of what's going on in the world. People have a big foot encounter. People have a werewolf encounter. People have a werewolf encounter. People. have gray alien encounter, whatever, you know? So do you want the church to have an answer for that? Or do you want some random guy on YouTube to have an answer for that? He's going to create this whole other narrative of UFO religion in the form of ancient aliens. We've got a huge population. Like you have Joe Rogan talking about the Ananaki on a major show. And people are like, yeah, the Ananaki created people because they have no idea of the data. And the Christians don't even know

what the Ananaki are, right? And so you have this very naive group of the faith community who don't understand that when this stuff rolls onto the scene or when people do have an experience behind the curtain, they try to talk to their pastor about it. And he's like, I, you know, or they try to talk to a friend. And they go, screw Christianity. You guys have no answers. Right? You guys don't know what you're talking about. This wasn't a demon. This thing grabbed me by the throat. You know what I'm saying? And not saying demons don't do that. But I'm just saying they don't have an answer for their experience. And I think we're trying to give people those answers and say, look, the faith can handle this. There's dark stuff who knows.

what and who knows from where. But your story's welcome here, and we're going to try to figure it out. And maybe, you know, there's more blurry creatures out there than we want to admit. And hopefully you engage and are exposed to the gospel in the process, right? Because all the stuff we talk about, it's all very interesting and I think it matters, but really matters is the gospel and the message of Christ and Christ returning to vanquish the darkness and to bring us back in the sons of Adam back to the family. So maybe this is a good way to kind of close out as to Protestants who are in love with Jesus and love the gospel, but document perhaps a strange flora and fauna of those present darkness. How has it affected your own personal faith?

What has been a challenge and what has been encouraging? Yeah, I would say that we can have a very 2D idea of the work of Christ and that's enough. In fact, the Christ comes and redeems us and allows us back into the family and provides a way for us back into the kingdom is enough. But I think when you start plugging in the supernatural realm and all the weird stuff that exists in the kingdom of darkness, I think it becomes a 3D or even 4D version of what Christ's work does, the intentionality, the places he goes. And the enemies he takes on and vanquishes on our behalf. You don't need to make the gospel any more spectacular. But it does provide this tapestry and context to the work of Christ in these other realms of what he's doing. and the Old Testament makes sense

in the context of the gospel too for me. It's 4D chess, if that's a good answer. We don't need that because our 2D version is enough for our salvation, but I do think that 4D view allows us to understand a lot of what is happening in this ancient war that we've been born into. I'll push back on that a little bit, Luke.

I would say it is important. You do need it. I think you do need the 4D because people walk away from their faith when the 2D doesn't give them the answers that they need. And so for me, you see a lot of Christians right now, not really knowing what to do with the Old Testament, for example, because it's so bizarre to them in a modern world. Right.

So we have become so drunk on empiricism and rationalism that we can't read the Old Testament anymore. So for me, all this blurry stuff makes you trust the scriptures that much more. The Bible is a doorway into reality, how the cosmos really works. and all the other texts that support the Bible are also valuable, right? They give context to the scriptures so you can trust your scriptures. You can trust the story and you can make sense of a talking donkey, right? These wild things that you read. And a modern human goes, who wrote this?

Right? But when you have the blurry goggles on, when you have this worldview, you're like, yeah, there was exactly a reason why that thing talked. And it happened. It actually happened. And we have this skepticism that we pour over all things in our life. And you can't bang the drum. It's like that moment in Harry Potter when he's like, the evidence that the dark Lord has returned is irrefutable.

And he's like, he's not back, right? That's what we have a lot in church. No, I want to go back into the matrix. I want to see the world the way it is. The only thing I know about the gospel and Christianity is Jesus is love. That's it. And it's a social justice thing. It's like there's so much more going on.

You know, Joshua rolled into the promised land to take it back physically, right? And he saw these things walking around there. And we as modern humans, go, I don't know. So for me, it's reclaim the scriptures of the story. I can trust the stories. They're true because that stuff still happens today. The weird stuff is going on. And like Heiser says, it's very important.

And I think the weird stuff gives the Bible more credibility, not less. And for me, it's just grown my faith and made me realize we do. need a savior. We do knew the king of kings to save us from all this stuff. And thank God for the veil. Thank God for the legality. Otherwise, we'd see it all the time. And otherwise, we would have no protections against it. But sometimes it slips through the veil and people blow the whistle on that. And I think the church needs to listen to those people and not be like, no. Because that is traumatic and that is damaging to people. Because people have had these experiences and nobody believes them. And I think that on our show, you've got a place to say it.

We might not believe everything, but we should provide that space. And as long as we don't think they're making up something or absolutely like something else is going on here entirely. So for me, I think that's what the show is done for my faith and for the faith of a lot of people who had a blurry experience and they couldn't explain it. So where do I suggest that we land with UFO

and extraterrestrial sightings and accounts? First, I think it's logical that there's not one single cause for each account. In terms of UFO sightings, for example, some accounts may have been caused by natural weather phenomena, others by a failed aerospace technology by a nation or a private corporation, or folks could simply be mistaken about what they saw. But there is a fourth possibility. folks were deceived into thinking one kind of thing occurred when in fact it was something else entirely. I've pointed out in interviews an interesting coincidence.

The sightings of UFOs and aliens and accounts of alien abduction only began after humans entered the space age. They all occurred after humans started launching satellites, probes, and spacecraft. The dawn of the space age altered the human imagination drastically. A frontier that was previously uncrossable, suddenly became crossable, and even conquerable. With this change in the human imagination, the devil responded accordingly. With the dawn of the space age, not only did the stories of alien encounters begin to flourish, but the accounts that marked the previous age, stories of interactions with fairies, leprechauns, mermaids, and nymphs,

they disappeared along with the closing of that age. When was the last time you met someone who claimed to see a fairy? A question that Nathan and Luke raise is what are we to make of the accounts of wreckage or bodily remains of aliens? Notice, however, that we always have to take someone's word for. no one who has claimed to ever seen the wreckage or the remains is ever able to produce them. Making something appear to be there that really isn't is the sordid prerogative of the demons. If you recall in season one, we interviewed Monsignor Patrick Brankin, the exorcist of the Diocese of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

He shared how one victim's face suddenly took on the appearance of a wolf's. His face became elongated, his teeth enlarged, and appeared as if he sprouted fur in long ears. Demons deceive. They are master illusionists. And such a thing isn't even difficult for them. It's child's play. Looking at it this way may help some better to understand. Because demons exist outside of space and time, that means they have more than 42 million lifetimes in just one millionth of a second, and they can use that time to stage an astoundingly elaborate, all-encompassing illusion, and execute it with precision. Assuming someone saw a genuine wreckage that they believed to be a spacecraft,

does that rule out demons? Certainly not. Demons can manipulate light. can affect how we perceive reality, and they are more than happy to steer us in our beliefs. If what I have said is still not convincing enough, consider this. Have you ever heard of someone sharing an encounter with an extraterrestrial that was not terrifying, or that were filled with love, joy, peace, kindness, and gentleness, those qualities that St. Paul calls the fruits of the spirit in Galatians 5. Me neither. So as your friendly neighborhood exorcist, let me just say that in my years, I have learned something about demons. And from where I sit,

a lot of what is happening today looks, smells, and feels like nothing more than old scratch up to his usual tricks. God bless you, folks, and have a Merry Christmas. Thank you.