The Extras - GAY PURR-EE: Judy Garland, Chuck Jones, and the Fascinating Story Behind this Forgotten Animation Classic

Episode Date: September 7, 2023

GAY PURR-EE (1962) is a forgotten classic of 1960s animation.  But the newly remastered Blu-ray release from the Warner Archive has restored the film to the rich, vibrant colors and sound that showcases the original artistry of Chuck Jones and Judy Garland. Animation and film historian Jerry Beck, film historian and Judy Garland expert John Fricke, and Warner Bros' George Feltenstein join the podcast to discuss the production history of the film, how Judy Garland was brought on board, and  why the film has struggled to attain the stature it rightly deserves.  We also provide a full review of the stunning new Blu-ray remaster, all of the robust extras, and an explanation of the differences between the film sound and the previously released film soundtrack."Gay Purr-ee" was ahead of its time and poorly marketed by UPA and Warner Bros upon its initial release.  While this new Warner Archive Blu-ray cannot rectifiy the past, it showcases the artistry and importance of the film for animation fans, Judy Garland devotees, and film collectors everywhere, and will hopefully lead to a newfound appreciation for the brilliance of the film.Purchase on Amazon: GAY PURR-EE BLU-RAYThe Sitcom StudyWelcome to the Sitcom Study, where we contemplate the TV shows we grew up with and...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify The Extras Facebook pageThe Extras Twitter Warner Archive & Warner Bros Catalog GroupOtaku Media produces podcasts, behind-the-scenes extras, and media that connect creatives with their fans and businesses with their consumers. Contact us today to see how we can work together to achieve your goals. www.otakumedia.tv

Hi, I'm film historian and author John Fricke. I've written books about Judy Garland and the Wizard of Oz movie, and you're listening to The Extras. Hello and welcome to The Extras, where we take you behind the scenes of your favorite TV shows, movies, and animation, and they're released on digital, DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K, or your favorite streaming site. I'm Tim Lard, your host. Well, we often have terrific guests on the show, but once in a while,

we're lucky enough to have a pairing of guests we've never had before. That's exactly what we have today as animation and film historian Jerry Beck, and film historian and the world's leading authority on Judy Garland, John Fricke, joined George Feldstein and I for a discussion of the new Warner Archive Blu-ray release of Gay Hurry. Well, hi, George, Jerry, John. It's good to see everyone today. Hey, gentlemen.

This is really special. I'm so glad to have everybody here. Yeah, I mean, this is like a six degrees of separation from George. John, Jerry, you're actually meeting for the first time on this podcast, which is pretty special. But in five minutes of pre-taping conversation, we already have Robert Osborne and TCM in common. So I think we're good to go. Absolutely. Not to mention our love of the Wizard of Oz, but that's another subject. And we don't have seven hours. Well, George, this was kind of your idea to get your two friends together for a discussion on Gay Paris. How do you want to kind of start that discussion?

Well, I proudly can say I've been friends with both of these gentlemen, both personally and professionally, for a very long time. And I will not embark on anything regarding any animated content without consulting and speaking with Jerry. And I would not embark on any project related to the incredible Judy Garland without Mr. Fricke. And I am so proud to be joining them for this unique fusion of historical conflagration, if that's a word, where everything has come together to celebrate the release of this very unique motion picture on Blu-ray from a 4K scan off the camera negative, and a glorious Blu-ray is the result.

So we're very proud, and I'm excited to hear what the gentlemen have to say and to join in the conversation. Well, Jerry, maybe we should start with you, just to give a little background on how the film came together, because this was one of the, was it one of the last or few films from UPA? And it's an interesting story. UPA is pretty much forgotten today by the general public. But in the 1950s, they were as well known as Disney. They won three Oscars.

They created characters that everybody knew back then, at least Mr. Magoo, Gerald McBoingboing. that everybody knew back then, at least Mr. Magoo, Gerald McBoing Boing. UPA was the hot studio in animation, hotter even than Disney, and actually influenced not only Disney and its animation, but all the animation studios in America and all the animation studios around the world with their unique vision, with their unique, you know, they gave permission to the world of animation that an animation didn't have to just be Bugs Bunny and Donald Duck. It could be anyone's artistic vision. It could be James Thurber, you know, it could be children's books that look like in the style of

that author or just even the animators personal thing so upa was a very groundbreaking studio and the one thing they were trying to do they were all they were all by the way all the artists there were made up of uh ex disney artists who had worked on snow white pinocchio fantasia and were most of them were people who left the studio during the great uh strike disney had a picketing in 1941 uh for to create the union and all that. And a lot of these artists left for a variety of reasons, World War II as well, and formed UPA to try some new ideas and new things. And their breakthrough film was in 1950 with Gerald McBoing-Boing, which won the Academy Award, seemingly out of nowhere at that time. They were always trying to do an animated feature.

That was something they tried to do for 10 years. They made a deal with Columbia Pictures in 1948 that lasted about 10 years or so. And they were, again, the toast of the town during that decade. And theatrical shorts were still a big deal during that time. They finally broke through. And it was very difficult because Columbia Pictures at that time, they didn't want a feature. They certainly didn't want one that looked like a UPA movie. They wouldn't know how to sell it. They wouldn't know what to do with it. They had many, many proposals, many, many pitches. The one that

finally broke through was an Arabian Nights story, but Columbia Pictures insisted that Mr. Magoo be in it. And that film came out in 1959 and bombed entirely. The studio changed hands in 1960. A guy named Henry Saperstein took over and really commercialized the studio. They suddenly made Mr. Magoo TV cartoons and things like that. studio. They suddenly made Mr. Magoo TV cartoons and things like that. But he had a big goal to continue what UPA had started by trying to move into the feature arena. And they immediately came up with a couple of films in development, both of which came out in 1962. One of them, of course, is that very famous Mr. Magoo Christmas Carol.

And the other one was Gay Pari. Gay Pari was a story by Chuck Jones and his wife. I'm sure you know this. I have a feeling John has a little more detail on that story than I do. But it was so totally up Chuck Jones's alley. This is exactly the kind of film he would make. He was, of course, under contract to make the Warner Brothers Looney Tunes for Warners at that time, so he didn't go any further than create the screenplay with his wife.

I'm going to stop there, but, you know, the film is wonderful, and we'll talk more about that as we go along. The film is wonderful, and we'll talk more about that as we go along. Jerry, this is kind of the big question mark hanging over this film. I've had an opinion about it, and I will speak responsibly on behalf of our company. Right. But it is my understanding, or this has always been my gut. This is not based on anything factual. This is not based on anything I have researched. My belief is that Chuck directed the cartoon and Abe Levitao

got credit because of Chuck's contractual obligation to Warner Brothers. And I wonder if you agree with that or if you think that Chuck wrote the screenplay and that was it. He didn't direct it per se. Well, in trying to be respectful of the company you work for, clearly Chuck designed the characters. Clearly this is so Chuck Jones. As you have on the bonus material of the Pepe Le Pew cartoon, in particular, Louvre Come Back to Me,

which was released the same year as Gay Paris, it's a very, very similar themed animated short with the Louvre Museum in Paris. I mean, it's pretty amazing. This was Chuck's thing. And I think possibly maybe in the way that Spielberg really directed Poltergeist. Another thing we don't like to talk about. It's a maybe.

Abe Levital was Chuck's assistant and co-director at Warner Brothers for years before this. And he returned to Chuck during the period when Chuck was doing the Tom and Jerry cartoons for MGM. Abe Levittow gets a co-credit. And I believe he even gets a, I think he's a co-director on Dot and the Line. And I think he even directed a few of those solo. Abe Levittow was a great artist as well. But clearly, this looks like a Chuck Jones production. I also will say, whether you knew it or not, that Chuck got in a little hot

water for this film with Warner Brothers. The film, of course, was released by Warner Brothers. UPA no longer had their deal with Columbia in the 1960s, so they shopped the film around. Warner Brothers picked it up, but someone there in business affairs realized that what's this Chuck Jones doing on this other company's film? And as you may have heard, Chuck was let go a little earlier than the rest of the staff. Because as you also may know, the classic Warner Brothers cartoons department, the one that was started by Leon Schlesinger in 1930, and at that time it was Chuck Jones, Robert McKimpson, and Frizz Freeling,

they were let go at the end of 1962. Chuck preceded them being let go, And the reason was he broke his contract. He wasn't supposed to write a film for another company, even though Warner's released it. I find that so odd. But they were letting everyone go anyway. So I don't think it was as great of a disappointment for Chuck. By the time they let everybody go, most of his staff went to join him at MGM on those Tom and Jerry cartoons. You know, but it all worked out for everybody in the end, but it was quite controversial in-house at that time. Well, you know, I should also clarify that the film was what we now call a negative pickup, meaning that Warner Brothers arranged with Saperstein and UPA for perpetual

worldwide distribution rights in perpetuity. My theory is Chuck worked on the movie. We don't know to what extent. Right. Before the movie was completed or released, Warner Brothers picked it up for distribution. Or, Jerry, you may know this, maybe it was completed and then Warner Brothers looked at it and said they'll pick it up for distribution.

I don't know that from – I believe Warner's was involved while the film was in production. I believe also. But I would also say that Chuck might not have directed much of it because Abe was a trusted colleague. He was already working for UPA. He directed The Magoo's Christmas Carol. And Chuck was involved when he was at Warner's at that time.

As you know, George, he was involved heavily with the Bugs Bunny show and directing those interstitials. And that's why a lot of the cartoons from the early 60s, a lot of the shorts, are either co-directed by some of the animators or even directed by some of the animators who only had their one shot of directing during this period. Well, that makes sense. Regardless, the net result was a very unique motion picture, and that's why all of us are here to talk about it. motion picture and that's why all of us are here to talk about it i'm on i gotta tell you uh i watched it again uh with the blu-ray uh with the release of blue and i haven't seen the film for at least 15 or 20 years so i decided to do it right now by the way i had never i only watched it on television i never saw it in a theater before. I decided, you know what? Got a big screen TV now. We all have high def. Turning off the lights, watching it at night, cranking up the sound.

And man, it was an experience. I really enjoyed watching this film over again in a way that, because I hadn't remembered certain scenes. I hadn't remember how things would look. Color is so vivid. The music is so wonderful. It's I realize now the film was way ahead of its time. It was way ahead of its time in 1962. It's it's it's a work of art and a great tribute to Paris. It's just a great film. I think so, too. I've always felt it was criminally underrated, and a lot of people don't understand it

because there's a sophistication to it that just goes over the head of a lot of people. Conversely, there are a lot of people today who grew up watching this on television as children. Yes. Like, Jerry, you and I grew up in New York. We didn't have this, but here in Los Angeles, you had Tom Hatton hosting the Family Film Festival on weekends. Yep. And I knew a lot of people that saw the film then.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, the thing that people forget, and we talk about it all the time, George, is that the short cartoons that Chuck comes out of, that UPA made, were never aimed solely at children. Yes, children can watch them. Children can enjoy them. The characters are popular, but they were aimed for the full audience. Jones, in particular, his staff, the UPA people in general, they played to the whole of an audience and not just children's matinees. Now, by 1962, things had changed.

Animation being a kid's medium became a thing by the late 50s and into the 60s. So it came out at a difficult period, but the film is really sophisticated, even though it's about animal characters and they look like our classic cartoon characters, but it's quite a sophisticated piece. For sure. I just have to attend to what Jerry said.

I remember Newsweek's, the final line of Newsweek's review, they were pleasant about some aspects of it, but they said it seems like they're trying with what Jerry just said about watching it now and watching it projected large and with good equipment or at a theater here in New York. And it is such, everybody who worked on it is so classy. You know, it is all exquisitely, beautifully, conceptually, and they're also committed to it, to make it what, you know, Chuck and Judy and Harold and Yip and Mort Lindsey and the animators and everybody. It's really, really, really good people all working at the top of their form. Well, I know I watched it the other night too, Jerry,

and my daughter sat down and watched it with me. She's 10 years old, and she watches, of course, all of the newest Disney animation, all the animation. And it's totally different because it's like art. It really was to what you said. And the fact that she actually understands because she's learning in school about that period of time in French history and art history. And she could, as they were going through some of the different explanation in the film of some of the artwork, she could point it out and she was enthralled. And then when I said, hey, that's the

voice of Judy Garland, she of course knew who Judy was from The Wizard of Oz, which endures amazingly, right? This film that just looks like it was made five years ago, not 85 years ago, or whatever it is. And she sat and she watched the whole movie with me. She didn't get bored. She didn't grab her iPad. She didn't want to text with her friends or anything. And she was delighted. And of course, one of the great things about animation and animated movies is music and the music of Judy Garland throughout this. John, that's why you're on, of course. How did Judy get involved in this project? And I'm assuming she was involved from very early on

because it's so integral to the story. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Hi, this is Tim Millard, host of The Extras Podcast. And I wanted to let you know that we have a new private Facebook group for fans of the Warner Archive and Warner Brothers Catalog physical media releases. So if that interests you, you can find the link on our Facebook page or look for the link in the podcast show notes. Well, the earliest reference I can find to her being involved was in early June 1961.

And at that point, she had done Carnegie Hall. She'd been doing the concerts. Well, the earliest reference I can find to her being involved was in early June 1961. And at that point, she had done Carnegie Hall. She'd been doing the concerts, the one-woman shows, for about 10 months. And the industry certainly was aware of her resurgence. She was healthy, and she was touring, and she was knocking everybody sideways. She had been out to Hollywood to do Judgment at Nuremberg. That filming had been in March 1961. And Freddie Fields and David Beigelman were her new agents, and they were really managing her. And I don't know who approached her, but Mr. Saperstein had such a vision for this. There's an interview with him in the December 61 New York Times about

if it had to be this period of art, it had to be, you know, these artists that we homaged. If it had to be art, it had to be Paris. If it had to be animals in Paris, it had to be cats. But at that point, they had just finished the recording. Judy and the cast had done all the vocal stuff in L.A. in the month of November 1961. So it was about five months before that, that Hedda Hopper, of all people, broke the story that Judy Garland was going to do the voice of the leading character in Gay Paris. And the extraordinary thing too, and I think Jerry, George, all of you can correct me. I think basically this is regarded, not that Mary

Costa didn't do Sleeping Beauty and Cliff Edwards didn't do Pinocchio, but I think this is one of the very first times, if not the first time, that a major, major, major star and several major stars came in to do the voices for a feature length cartoon. And when it was announced by HEDA, at that point, they were looking to get Gene Kelly to do the voice of Jean-Tom, the male lead, and Maurice Chevalier to be the narrator. But Harold Arlen and Yip Harburg were already committed to do the songs. And I think however it came together, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they didn't, you know, use the idea of we can try to get Harold and Yip, Judy, if you'll agree to do it, using it as bait to get her. Or maybe they used her to get them. Who knows? But when you put those people together, it was kind of like Star is Born. When they announced that, Warner's announced that.

Once they were doing a Star is Born with Judy Garland, Ira Gershwin and Harold Arlen were on board. George Cukor, the director, said to Sid Luft, if it's for her, I'll do it, whatever it is. All those people come right know, come right in when you have that kind of magnetism. And as I say, the word was out that Judy was really in an upswing and many of them had already seen her. Harold Arlen was at the Carnegie Hall concert. Mort Lindsey had been brought in by Fields and Beigelman to conduct for her in January of 61

and then convinced Mort to do the tour. And by summer of 61, he was orchestrating songs for her in January of 61 and then convinced Mort to do the tour. And by summer of 61, he was orchestrating songs for her act and for a Capitol single. So he was the logical choice to do, you know, Judy will get Mort to do this with you. And she loved him and he loved her. So it was kind of a coalescence of getting everybody together. So as i say by november 1961 she had taken three weeks off from the concert tour she was in la there are pictures of her and you lay working together with more in the recording studio rehearsing kate thompson judy's great good friend uh since 1943 at mgm was there vocally coaching uh uncredited but she was there, vocally coaching, uncredited, but she was there. Maury Amsterdam is not in these pictures, but he replaced the idea of Marie Chevalier,

obviously, because the narrator was not that big a part. Maybe it would have been if Chevalier had agreed to do it. But getting Goulet was a coup. This, again, is Freddie and David. They eventually had Goulet as a client, whether they used this as bait to get him as a client or they had him and they put him in this because he was a client. I'm not sure. I don't know his career backwards and forwards. But I do know that it was just an extraordinary grouping of people. And Freddie and David wanted Judy in there because then they got part of her salary.

They would have wanted Goulet in there because they would have gotten part of his salary. You know, they were packagers and they were working in that idiom very early on in Hollywood history. Judy got $50,000 up front for Gay-Pourri, and then she had a percentage of it. George, look into that. I want to know where the money went, if she's supposed to be still getting a percentage of Gay-ie anyway that's that's how it all started and uh there are great great quotes from um yip harburg and harold arlen about the score about working with judy again and yip said when we sat down with judy to feature the songs he said i was standing at the piano she was sitting next to harold and she was looking over

harold's shoulder at the score now judy could not read music she was sitting next to Harold. And she was looking over Harold's shoulder at the score. Now, Judy could not read music. She was very frank about that. But she had, he said, Nick said, she had such a sense of melody and lyrics. He said she was almost a line ahead of Harold in realizing where the song was going to go and how she was going to sing it. And when Harold Arlen later heard the recording,

he said, everybody's fine. but he said, Judy alone shines. She is a treasure, and a composer's work could not be in better hands. He also said that Little Drops of Rain was a personal favorite of his. So that was taking us from early 61 into summer of 62, which is when the animation was completed. Mr. Saperstein was very careful about saying that, well, no, in no way does Musette resemble Judy Garland in appearance. But if you look, Judy's eyes were brown, Musette's eyes are blue,

but the eyes, the wideness of the eyes, the expressiveness of the eyes, the lashes, that's all very much Judy Garland. And one of the things that is fun, That's all very much Judy Garland. And one of the things that is fun, I think, for Judy fans to listen to is that she said, when she talked about Gay Pari later on, she said, I did a high pitch my voice for the dialogue, you know, to sound young and fresh and naive. And she's got it way up here and very wondering and all the rest. And then Mort hits a chord and out comes 1961 Judy Garland, Carnegie Hall voice. So they were going for absolutely every approach to it that they thought would be appealing. And as you say, now, if your 10-year-old

daughter in 2023 can respond to it, and I have nieces who are responding to it in the 1980s on home video. And I was 11 when Gay Parikh premiered. And I was certainly pep to it on all kinds of levels. But it was just so many good people doing so much good work. And I think it all paid off in the end result, maybe not at the box office, maybe not for the mass audience. But as I said earlier, and as we can get into later on as we go on, it wasn't marketed especially well. I don't think Warner Brothers knew quite what to do with it. And they might have had a grudge against Chuck Jones for being so involved with it. He would have been gone by then. And they might have been an attitude of, well, why should we push a Chuck Jones product when he reached his contract and is now at Metro? And, you know, who knows?

There are always backstories. Well, I think Garland drove this project in many, many ways. I think I wonder if it seems to me that Warner Brothers may have picked it up. And the marketing seems to be driven by it's Judy Garland, Judy Garland, you know, that the trailer that's also included in the Blu-ray is very interesting and, and very telling it's it's about 50%, maybe 70% about it's Garland it's Garland and, you know, Robert Goulet, but and then, and then another 30% is a little bit of clips from the film.

And personally, I'd watched the trailer afterward, after seeing the film. And I'm surprised the clips they showed in the trailer, because they're not the best clips. You know, they could have so many great visuals and beautiful things they could have put in here. But they didn't do that. So very, very odd. You don't start a family animation, forgive me for jumping in, but you do not start a trailer for a family animation movie with Judy Garland singing Paris is a Lonely Town. She sings it, and the voiceover is the woman.

Is that who I think it is? Why, yes, that's her. That's Judy Garland. And it's like, start with Take My Hand, Paris. You do Roses, Red, Violets, Blue. You put in the suicide number toward the end when you kind of already pre-sold the picture. Very, very peculiar.

Yeah, I also want to say that Garland, you asked before about was this the first kind of celebrity or star to headline an animated film. I have to think about it, but I pretty much say yes as far as a feature film is concerned. And Garland's a superstar. The only other ones that are in the back of my mind are some of those little shorts that Disney did,

you know, where he did compilation movies. And he would have Bing Crosby doing Legend of Sleepy Hollow and something like that, or the Andrews Sisters and Little Toot. You know, these are really shorts that are part of a feature. There's no any of those big Disney movies that really highlights a superstar. Again, this may all get cut out because we don't want to talk about Disney, but I guess the only comparison would be something like Peggy Lee

being involved with Lady and the Tramp. But other than that, this was unique at the time. Anything, when we think about celebrities' voices in animated features, it's pretty much after this movie, including Disney movies that would later have Phil Harris or whatever, The Beatles and Yellow Submarine, things like that. you know that would later have phil harris or whatever uh the beatles and yellow submarine you know things like that all of that's later uh and this this was definitely a first and i again i i'm going to play devil's advocate here about the trailer because of course by the time gay puri was released in november 1962 judy had been oscar nominated for judgment

nuremberg carnegie hall had been on the charts for something like 75. Right. Grammy Album of the Year, the TV special with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin. She was the biggest star in the industry at that point. Right. And that's really important. People forget the context of the release and what was going on at that time. In fact, let me ask you, John, remind me about Robert Goulet.

Was Camelot, was he in Camelot at that point? Camelot in 1960 had put him on a map and he was doing a lot of TV variety. But it's interesting. He was with Camelot for a good long time. And then he did Gay Paris. He got a recording contract. And when Gay Paris opened, he was also opening simultaneously what I believe was his first big nightclub act at Lindström's in Boston. So he was just starting to diversify and he was starting to appear in non-animated films. But that was really just coming on the map at that point. By the time the picture opened, he was a great catch for the part. And again, looking ahead, I think everybody kind of knew he had a future, but he was not, he wasn't yet Robert Goulet when he recorded Gay Parade.

He was by the time the film opened. Right. And Red said won an Academy Award. Hermione Gingold had just made a big hit in The Music Man. So these were all names that could be punched. Paul Freese, everybody knew the voice. I don't think they did any kind of real promotion with him, but they could have if they'd said, this is the same guy whose voice is here, there, and everywhere. But it was all about Judy. I didn't complain, mind you, but it was all about Judy.

It's also a great performance. What I love about it is in later years when there would be a celebrity, you can kind of feel they're coming in and doing the least in order to fulfill whatever the contract is. I didn't feel that way at all watching this film. She gives a performance. That's the cool thing about it to me. It all feels very very right well i know here's if tim if you ever want to run a trivia contest with this youtube installment you can ask the question at

what moment in gay paris is musette's voice not the voice of judy garland tell us strings of the film when she and jean-thom are in the carriage and they're laughing at Robespierre and his little pussycat. That's not Judy Garland laughing. Judy Garland had an identifiable laugh in the world and they probably didn't know they needed it at that point. You know, it's an afterthought with the animation, but it ain't her. Well, back to your point, Jerry, when I watch this movie, the new Blu-ray coming out, actually it's already out from the Warner Archive. When I put that in, I definitely wanted to watch it on my 4k monitor with my surround sound. And so it's the best of the best of which I'm going to watch, you know, which I watch all of the newest movies and it holds up visually the brightness of the colors, the artistry of the colors, and then the

sound of Judy singing coming through my surround sound. I mean, it was quite an experience. It really, to what you said, it was a performance against art. I mean, that's just kind of how I have to view it. And my daughter was totally enthralled. I think anybody who hasn't seen this since it's been on television or since it's been remastered, obviously, is going to be really, really surprised and shocked at how great it looks and sounds. Well, this is the first time people are getting to see it as it was shown in the theaters in the 185 aspect ratio. Further, this is a 4K scan off the camera negative. So you don't have any intermediate elements getting in the way. And I really want to talk about the sound for a second, because this is very important.

The film's music sessions were recorded stereophonically. And of course, there was a CD soundtrack, which basically was the more modern iteration of what was the LP soundtrack. I'm doing my math. Oh, 40 years earlier. And I produced the CD soundtrack using the multi-track album master. There were no recording sessions to go back to. They were not turned over to Warner Brothers. No one knows what happened to them. But the soundtrack album has appropriate for the time reverb.

It doesn't sonically sound like the movie at all. So people will sometimes just assume, well, why isn't the film in stereo like the album? Now, when I was a little kid, I used to think that way. I was like, what's going on here? The film was released minorally. The film was released minorally. We used the monaural magnetic print master source for the audio, it would have sounded completely different. Everybody would have sounded like they're in an echo chamber because they put reverb baked into those album tracks. And we ran into the same problem with Lucio Ball's Mame. Maybe not surprisingly or surprisingly, that film was released minorly.

And the reason why mono movies with music in them were, if they weren't a huge roadshow presentation blown up to 70 millimeter or filmed with a 65 millimeter negative with the six track sound, six-track sound. It was in the early 50s when stereophonic magnetic kind of descended upon the scene that stereo was more common. Then there became a period of time, really, for about 15, maybe 20 years, where local neighborhood theaters did not have stereophonic capabilities. So many films were released mono, even if they were music heavy. It really wasn't until the introduction of Dolby Stereo Optical, which really was led by Star Wars in 1977, that made it more commonplace that you could have stereophonic audio reproduction in theaters, in neighborhoods.

And even that took 10 to 12 years to become very, very commonplace. So I really want people to know that we were unable, just the same thing happened to us with Cabaret, where Cabaret was strangely released only with a menorah soundtrack, or we can find no evidence otherwise. The recording sessions for that film don't exist, and therefore we had to synthesize something for the Blu-ray that came out. But the album of Cabaret has even more reverb than the album of Gay Paris. So it wasn't like we missed an opportunity. We could not do it because it sounded completely different

from the rest of the film and actually been distracting. It's a shame because the stereo sounds wonderful, but it doesn't sound like the film. It sounds like an album. So I just had to clarify that for those who are interested. And complaining. They're always complaining. People are. Yeah. I'll leave it at that and just concur with your assessment, John. So, John, was the album that came out of this fairly popular? I don't think so. I think George wrote about it a little bit in the CD liner notes because the film wasn't, the film came and went so quickly.

It premiered in Chicago in November of 1962, a big world premiere. Judy was there doing a concert besides and plugging the songs. She had been for the preceding concerts in Las Vegas for six weeks and in Chicago and talking about Gay Paris. And she was, you know, supposed to be getting a percentage. She was in there plugging for it. She did it. She did a bus tour of theaters in New York, like like Betty Davis did for Baby Jane around that same time where she went by bus with reporters to, you know, Judy will be at this theater in the Bronx at seven o'clock. She'll be at this theater in the Bronx at 730. And she went place to place. Goulet was with her on a couple of the three nights. They had a 14 man police escort

to get them in and out because the people were jammed up to see Judy Garland in person. And at first she just went in and talked and she got the sense that it wasn't enough. So on the bus, she coached the 14 policemen and Robert Goulet into a chorus of There's No Business Like Show Business, which they then acapella at all the other theaters. But she did that. She and Goulet were on a Jack Parr program. He had an hour on Friday, primetime. And that was a huge event to have Judy Garland on a talk show. It had never happened before. And so she was singing Little Drops and Paris is a Lonely Town on that show.

She and Goulet duetted musette. But the thing is, I was waiting for it to come in Milwaukee and to appear. I think it happened over Thanksgiving weekend. And because it was Thanksgiving weekend, every family was already committed to doing this, that, and the other thing. And within five days, six days, it was gone. And it seemed like that happened. I don't remember. Print ads in the paper.

It was all very, very, very quick and clandestine and out. And they put the album out a good four months before the movie opened. I remember getting it in the summer of 1962, because even at 11, I was buying Judy Garland albums as soon as they came on the market. And it's a shame because you knew I played the album a lot because I love Mort Lindsey's stuff. I love what he was charting for Judy, what he was, the Carnegie Hall album, which he didn't do any arrangements, but he was conducting brilliantly. And it's just he knew how to showcase her. And I remember Ed Jablonski, who was a good friend of the Gershwins. He was a good friend of Harold Arlunds.

He wrote, in fact, two biographies on Harold, one while Harold was still alive and one that could be a little bit more direct about some of the problems that Harold had after Harold passed. And he was also a main reviewer for American Record Guide, which was one of the classiest of the monthly magazines about new records, pop, classical, both. And he writes very, very fluently and very well about Gay Paris. And his cutoff is that this is a score that would not be out of place on a Broadway stage. You know, it is that caliber of music and lyrics.

And the album is wonderful, and so is everything about Gay Parade. Again, I don't remember there being ads in Billboard or Variety or anything. It was just kind of flushed. And a lot of this is thinking out loud for me. And the point, again, my mind is going back to is maybe Warner Brothers was just didn't want to do anything for a Chuck Jones, what they envisioned as a Chuck Jones production. I don't want to say that, you know, as, as if it's concrete, because as George said, I've done no research at it, but boy, it just, it just disappeared very quickly. It even, and it didn't even play the neighborhood theaters because believe me,

I wanted to go and see it again. That's what I wanted to ask you, John, where did it open in New York? Did it open like in one theater in Manhattan? It opened wide. That's why Judy and Bob Goulet did all those theaters on the bus.

So it probably opened at like 14, 15, 20 theaters all over the Tri-State area. Or at least in the folks. You know, I mean, I'm a bit of a, in addition to my being an animation historian, I'm a bit of a nut on how the films were distributed because, like George, I used to be in film distribution. And I don't know about the whole Chuck Jones aspect of it. When you've got Judy Garland, I really don't think Chuck Jones is that important from a marketing perspective. I think that none of

the studios, and this went on for decades until literally this century, none of the studios really understood how to distribute an animated film, good or bad the film may be outside of Disney. Disney was set up to do that. And most studios, you know, even handed a great film. And again, George knows, you know, Iron Giant is a classic animated feature. Warner Brothers did not know how to sell that movie. If a film is good, it'll ultimately will out, you know, people will find it on physical media, thank goodness. But back in those days, unfortunately, a lot of feeling by the front end distribution people, based on what I know, was a cartoon at that time was a cartoon. That meant Saturday matinees. They sort of pre-thought it wouldn't work in advance. And I see that all the time when I look at the

box office totals for the non-Disney films throughout the years. And there's good films, there are bad films, but sometimes they would dump a film, a great film. In fact, Chuck Jones's next feature was The Phantom Tollbooth. That was not released for like two or three years. George, you may know about that. And then it was sold as one of those children matinees, those MGM. Yeah. Remember that? It was part of the first group of MGM children's matinees, along with, this is, of course, John's territory, the first theatrical engagements of The Wizard of Oz in over 15 years.

As the original agreement with CBS for broadcast did not allow for theatrical exhibition. So the MGM children's matinees were where the Phantom Tollbooth finally was seen in theaters after being on the shelf for two years. Right. I mean, there was a weird feeling

about what animation was in the whole of the 1960s. You know, Walt Disney passed away in 1966. Animation on the whole did not have a leader. And the studios left to their own devices, really kind of let it all go is what happened from the animation history perspective. That's why it's great that we're able to showcase and highlight this film because it really is a work of art and um uh really like as you said underrated it would be the right the right word uh for its reception in the past i think this might be the best ever release of it i'm pretty positive it is and uh hopefully it'll get more people to rediscover it for the first time.

And looking back at the history, I think it is interesting to note that the film made its television debut not as afternoon kiddie programming, but it was on the CBS either Thursday or Friday Night Network movie. I can't remember if it was Thursday night movie or Friday night movie. I don't remember that. It was, you know, 9 p.m. When was that, George? What year?

I can't tell you exactly, but I would assume 1966 or 67, somewhere around there. But they didn't make it. They didn't say, oh, we can't put this film on our nighttime primetime movie slot because it's for kids they didn't do that they put it in the evening slot because there were some people that recognized it as a work of art that would appeal to adults and of course jerry you and i are always thumping the bandwagon that the classic cartoons that were created for theatrical release by all the studios, particularly Warner Brothers and MGM, were very much aimed at adults and fine for children. But they were not created as kiddie babysitters like the Saturday morning cartoons later came to be in the 70s and 80s. Well, you know, Chuck was very much a proponent of that, meaning he never really he never, ever made the cartoons, any of the ones he did for children.

He he was able to survive that period by by getting that gig with MGM theatrical cartoons, as he had been doing. And of course he augmented that by doing little films like the dot in the line, which then won an Oscar, not aimed at the Grinch. And of course the Grinch, I mean, and other TV specials,

he was able to maintain a certain level and probably I'd love to know what year that was on the TV broadcast, because that that that sort of fits in with when you know kind of the golden age of chuck as a making tv specials because i think grinch was 66 i think it was december 66 yeah um if my brain isn't failing me i'm pretty sure this was like fall of 1967 yeah that, that sounds right. Yet, I have not researched it. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I got to say one more trivial or not trivial thing about Chuck and UPA and this relating to this film is this was really the last hurrah of animation in the way that UPA was established in the first place.

Making this film in 62, this and Magoo's Christmas Carol, same year, same directors. After this, they only did a bunch of Magoo specials for NBC, and they were out of animation. As you know, they were distributing Godzilla movies and things like that. I think they produced What's Up, Tiger Lily with Woody Allen. So they were in a different universe after this movie. What's interesting is, is that most people don't know that Chuck Jones directed the very first UPA animated film. That was in 1942. And it was the first thing they got paid to do, a commissioned film

to reelect FDR called Hell Bent for Election. Very famous film. You can find it online. It's the first UPA cartoon. And it was done by Chuck Moonlighting because it was done for political reasons. He wanted to work on this. He wanted to help those guys. And he designed and directed this short to help FDR. So I find that very interesting. And Chuck was involved in the first and the last of the UPA epic animations. Those are both good bookends, though. Yes. Well, in between, of course, he worked in Warner Brothers. Again, just to go back to their marketing, the other thing that bothered me, well, not

bothered me. Yeah, it bothered me. Yeah, it bothered me that, again, no campaigning at Oscar time for either the score or any of the songs. Another writer, and I wish I could remember where I read this. I don't. But he said that part of the problem is that in 1962, there were not that many original musicals being written for the screen. You everything was Broadway or Elvisvis presley but music back and you had just had west side story and of course you had mary poppins upcoming and sound of music of course was again broadway but again musicals were were not what they had been unless they came with a pedigree built in a disney made mary poppins so there was the pedigree

but sound of music music man uh west side story they were all pretty much pre-sold successes. this release can give it. And then I think a lot of people will be delighted to find out what they've been missing for these 60 years. You know, let me repeat that this film was pioneering. Not only did it have a superstar in Judy Garland in it, it was a UPA production. But as you're saying, animation back then was not regarded the way it is today. Today we have 30 theatrical releases. They have a category of best animated feature. None of that existed back then. Animation was kind of off the table. They were in the kiddie table at Thanksgiving over here.

And there really weren't that many original animated features that were pure. that many original animated features that were pure. What I mean by that is even the previous UPA feature, which was the first American animated feature in about 13 years preceding one was, that wasn't Disney, was the Fleischer films like Mr. Bug Goes to Town. Only Disney made animated features, period. So finally, Magoo, they put Mr. Magoo in their first one. The other animated features of this time that were made in America were films that Warner's is distributing, like Hey There, It's Yogi Bear and The Man Called Flintstone, films that are based off of TV properties or famous name cartoon characters, an original, an absolute original story with characters nobody knew.

That was, that was, this was very, very unique in its day. It just reminded me of the Snow Queen, which I think was a European thing. That was Russian. Yeah. Redubbed here. I got, I've got to say one thing you have revived in my heart, not that it's ever far from there at all, is Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol, because that has been a thrilling thing to me since I was 11, 12 years old. was warm that looked like backgrounds from gay peri um the same style the same classy approach um and winter was warm has got to be one of my top five favorite songs of all time so um it is nice to realize or put in perspective for me how much that is a upa uh demonstration

because it is as it gets george, Jerry mentioned a little bit earlier, some of the classic cartoon extras on here and the trailer, which are part of the extras. I watched them. And again, I watched them with my daughter. We loved them. And they looked terrific. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about the choices that went into that. Well, I thought it was a perfect opportunity, given the subject matter, to take two of Chuck's Pepe Le Pew cartoons for sentimental reasons, which won the Oscar,

and Louvre, Come Back to Me, which happens to be of the same year that Gay Pari was released. And usually when we put cartoons on as a bonus to feature films, it's either because of thematical relation, which is the application of For Sentimental Reasons, or year of release, whoever come back to me.

But I also violated the Chuck Jones equivalency theory. I want to make a Big Bang Theory kind of title for that by including the Robert McKimson cartoon French Rare Bit, which is one of my personal favorite Bugs Bunny cartoons and is so ooh-la-la French. And Gay Paris is ooh-la-la French in its thematics, and very differently but hysterically, so is French rare bit.

And we also added five demos performed by the composer Harold Arlen of key songs from the film, and he's joined on two of them by the lyricist E.Y. Yip Garberg, and I'm sure that this has probably already been mentioned, but again, these are the gentlemen that created all the songs and the song score for The Wizard of Oz for Judy Garland, including Over the Rainbow. So that pedigree coming to this motion picture can't be underscored,

hence the songwriter demo. So it's really a full disc in terms of immersing one in the Gay Paris experience and the French animation experience and the Let's Make a Judy Garland movie experience. So it's all things rolled into one plus red buttons. And you are teachers out there between the Louvre, come back to me and, and the, there's a section in Gay Paris. There's literally, you can get an art education in this film that I don't think you can get anywhere else. You know, it's pretty cool. I love it.

Yeah. And I was mentioning that earlier that my daughter is at that age where she's being taught a lot of that and she caught right onto that and she jumped ahead. I know that. I know that artist. I know that style. And she was saying, oh, that's my favorite. And you know, the Gauguin. And I was just shocked to hear her just jumping in to talk about that. I mean, you don't hear that on a, on a current animation. Well, actually that's wrong. It's usually, oh, I know that singer. But I, I just thought this was a terrific film. I really appreciate you guys coming on because I think we just need to kind of spread the word on how great this looks and sounds. And of course there, you know, there's

already Judy Garland fans and there's already Chuck Jones fans melding, hey, two of your favorites possibly in different worlds, they came together. But I think that if people aren't kind of shown the images and we don't talk about it, that this could just once again kind of slip under the radar and lose its place in animation history, film history. Yep. We got to spread the word. I guess we got to get the Academy Museum or something to do a display. I wonder if any of the animation cells exist. I seriously don't know. Have you ever seen one? You know, I don't think I ever have, but I'm going to look into it.

I'm going to look into it. I can't think of seeing one. It really does feel like something that should be shown at the Academy with a little exhibit. It really does. That's that kind of quality. Well, George, was there anything else you wanted to talk about? Well, I just think it is a cause for celebration to be here with all three of you gentlemen and to salute this very, very special release. I'm hoping that the availability of this film, as it was meant to be seen with unparalleled quality,

will garner it a new group of fans and the appreciation I feel it deserves and has not been given hitherto. It deserves and has not been given hitherto. Well, I know a lot of fans of Garland fans are already posting on Facebook that they have it and they're loving it. They must have preordered because they started getting it in the mail the top of this week. And it's like it looks great. It sounds great. I've never seen it like this, all of that kind of stuff. So the drums are being beaten and I, we tried to do our part today anyway. Well, along those notes, thank you, Jerry. Thank you, John, George, as always, it's terrific to have you on the podcast.

And I just want to thank you guys for coming on and sharing all of your amazing knowledge with the, the listeners of the extras. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Tim. I hope you enjoyed this discussion as much as I did. It was terrific hearing from John Fricke, who just knows so much about Judy Garland. And of course, Jerry Beck, who has all of that animation background.

What a treat that was for animation fans and film fans. So I hope you really enjoyed that. If you're interested in ordering Gay Paris, we will have a link to that here in the podcast show notes. So look for that. And if you're on social media, be sure and follow the show to stay up to date on our upcoming guests and to be a part of our community. And you're always invited to our Facebook group for fans of Warner Archive films called the Warner Archive and the Warner

Brothers Catalog Group. So look for that link on the Facebook page or in the podcast show notes as well. And for our long-term listeners, please don't forget to follow and leave us a review at iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast provider. Until next time, you've been listening to Tim Millard. Stay slightly obsessed. The Extras is a production of Otaku Media, producers of podcasts, behind-the-scenes extras, and media that connects creatives with their fans and businesses with their consumers. Contact us today to see how we can work together to achieve your goals at www.otakumedia.tv or look for the link in the show notes.